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Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2005,05:44) Nick, has there ever been security in any religion anywhere? Has there ever been a true religion?
Hi david,
” How can two walk together unless they agree?”
Fellowship has to be based on agreement.I don't know what your answer is. You refuse to answer yes or no questions. I just wanted you to state whether there has ever been a religion (or 'form of worship' since religion is a made up word to you) that was true.
But, you seem unwilling or afraid to state that the first Christians had a religion even, much less that it was true.Apparently, God has never ever had a people, and there was never a group that was accepted by God, if I've understood all your posts on this, vague they were.
ZECHARIAH 8:23
“. . . .We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’””Jehovah was offering them something…..IF they listened to him.
DEUTERONOMY 28:1
““And it must occur that IF you will without fail listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by being careful to do all his commandments that I am commanding you today, Jehovah your God also will certainly put you high above all other nations of the earth.”EXODUS 19:5-6 (KEEP THIS SCRIPTURE IN MIND WHEN READING 1 PETER 2:9)
“And now IF YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ ”So the natural, fleshly Jews, fleshly Israel could have become Jehovah's special property, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation.
But it didn't go that way. They lost favor with Jehovah. So instead, these words were said to others, who would later be called the “Israel of God,” spiritual Israel:
1 PETER 2:9
“But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.”Remember, one is not a jew who is on the outside. Neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision. The fleshly Israel was replaced with a nation producing it's fruits, we are told.
ROMANS 9:25-26
“It is as he says also in Ho·se´a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’; and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’””The nation of Israel, fleshly Israel, had been God's people, but after they rebelled and rejected Jehovah, Jehovah rejected them and he has a new people, spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God.” (Gal 6:16)
ACTS 15:14
“Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.”A people for Jehovah's name, brought out of gentile nations, non-jews as God's people, a people for his name.
HEBREWS 8:10
““‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
HEBREWS 11:25
“choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin,”So let me ask this a different way this time Nick, does God have a people. Obviously if he does then those people would be worshipping him and we could call that a religion. Yes, it's a word not in the Bible, but there are plenty of words not in the Bible, yet we know what they mean. Anyway, if he has a people, they would be set aside, his special property, and they would be worshipping him. They would have, by man's definition, a religion. God's people would have a religion, obviously.
Does God have a people Nick?
Hi David,
The people of God are reborn into His family.First we have to dig deep and find the right foundation then the only Foundation stone must be laid and built on by grace till we become what he planned for us taking up a role in the body.
It matters not that we know of him but that he knows us.
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you”
Right, so Nick agrees. GOD HAS A PEOPLE, and has had a people in the past, as the scriptures above show.
I know this isn't a point you were really trying to make, when you said: “It matters not that we know of him but that he knows us.”
However, as a point of clarity, it means our life that we “know of him.” (John 17:3)
Any father wants his children to know him.Yes david,
He wants His children to know Him. But not all are His children. To become His child you must be reborn. We are to be one with Him as Jesus is.Hi david,
We are God's building [1Cor 3.9f]made of living stones [1Peter 2.5]built into a temple [Eph 2.20f]together by God.
God is the builder. We do not build our own religion and say God is with us.Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2005,07:46) ZECHARIAH 8:23
“. . . .We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’””Jehovah was offering them something…..IF they listened to him.
DEUTERONOMY 28:1
““And it must occur that IF you will without fail listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by being careful to do all his commandments that I am commanding you today, Jehovah your God also will certainly put you high above all other nations of the earth.”EXODUS 19:5-6 (KEEP THIS SCRIPTURE IN MIND WHEN READING 1 PETER 2:9)
“And now IF YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ ”So the natural, fleshly Jews, fleshly Israel could have become Jehovah's special property, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation.
But it didn't go that way. They lost favor with Jehovah. So instead, these words were said to others, who would later be called the “Israel of God,” spiritual Israel:
1 PETER 2:9
“But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.”Remember, one is not a jew who is on the outside. Neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision. The fleshly Israel was replaced with a nation producing it's fruits, we are told.
ROMANS 9:25-26
“It is as he says also in Ho·se´a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’; and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’””The nation of Israel, fleshly Israel, had been God's people, but after they rebelled and rejected Jehovah, Jehovah rejected them and he has a new people, spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God.” (Gal 6:16)
ACTS 15:14
“Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.”A people for Jehovah's name, brought out of gentile nations, non-jews as God's people, a people for his name.
HEBREWS 8:10
““‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
HEBREWS 11:25
“choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin,”So let me ask this a different way this time Nick, does God have a people. Obviously if he does then those people would be worshipping him and we could call that a religion. Yes, it's a word not in the Bible, but there are plenty of words not in the Bible, yet we know what they mean. Anyway, if he has a people, they would be set aside, his special property, and they would be worshipping him. They would have, by man's definition, a religion. God's people would have a religion, obviously.
Does God have a people Nick?
Hi david,
It matters not now if we are a jew or a gentile as we become new creatures in Christ. We were never under the Law and obeying the law does not save us now.
Some will be saved on the day of judgement because of how they treated the sons of God and brothers of Jesus[Matt 25.31f].
God has a people who are called, chosen and equipped by Him. They are sons of God, born again into the kingdom of God by water and the Spirit.
You cannot make yourself a son of God.That was frightening how true those words were. I agree with everything you just said in the last few posts.
So, I'm just going to write this in large letters so I can find it later easier.
NICK SAID:
*GOD HAS A PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED, CHOSEN AND EQUIPPED BY HIM.*david.
Hi david,
1Peter 1.1
” Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who dwell as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia who are chosen, according to the fore-knowledge of God, the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Christ and be sprinkled with his blood”
2.9
” But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His wonderful light”Yes, I've already quoted 1 pet 2:9.
Expressions like “priesthood,” “nation,” “a people,” would seem to indicate that they would be organized in some way.
“God has a people who are called, chosen and equiped by him,” you said.I feel very strongly that God does have a people. But how would they be distinguishable from others claiming to follow God, for as you have quoted, in the last days, many would be “having a form of godly devotion, but proving false to its power and from these turn away.” (2 Tim 3)
Jesus provides the answers. We've already looked at that one scripture briefly,
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””So love would certainly be one distinguishing factor. Let's look at one more. Notice Jesus words:
MATTHEW 7:15-20
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”Hi david,
Jn 13.34f
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another”Jesus loved us unto death. That is the love the disciples must have for one another. This is a witness to the world of our relationship with Jesus.
Ya, it's talking about loving “one another,” and saying by this, loving “one another” all will know that you are my disciples, by the “love for one another.”
This loving one another would be a witness to the world, as you put it, that we are, as Jesus says, his “disciples.”
While Jesus showed that there would be those claiming to be his followers, here we see one way of distinguishing the true from the false.
Jesus disciples (followers) would love one another.
This too seems to imply that they would be a group that is visible to people.
Making a claim means nothing. Many say Lord Lord. By their fruits Nick, by their fruits.
Does a religion have love among itself or do the members of a religion have love among themselves when they go to war with one another for example? On one side you have a priest saying: WE HAVE GOD ON OUR SIDE. And on the other side, you have a bishop saying: FIGHT FOR GOD AND HE WILL GIVE YOU VICTORY. Now, in what way is that love, for the man who slaughters his brother, as Cain slaughtered Abel.
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which YOU have heard from [the] beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for the sake of what did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother [were] righteous.”
So, we could look at such a denomination and think, hmmmm. Maybe they don't have love for themselves.
Or we could remember Jesus words: “They are no part of the world, as I am no part of the world.”
Would someone that is no part of the world be involved in a world war, would they be fighting over which country is better? Or rather, would they be on the side of God's Kingdom. Would their allegience be to God's government?Claims mean nothing. By their fruits you will recognize those men. Nick, we've gotten a lot of flack over not going to war. It's considered treasonous by some, unpatriotic by others, a threat to national security by the uninformed, and a point of contention by those we meet in the field ministry. Once upon a time, a woman said to one of Jehovah's Witnesses: “You people, you don't go to war. What if everyone was like that?” After a while, the lady figured it out. There would be no war. And that woman could be told with certainty that anyone she's lost in war, wasn't killed by one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Hitler didn't like Jews, gypsies, or Jehovah's Witnesses. When the Nazi's had the concentration camps, there was a difference between the Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses. To leave, all they had to do was sign a piece of paper renouncing their faith. And they'd be free to go. Thousands of Witnesses died in the concentration camps. They maintained their loyalty to Jehovah, and not to the world, or any human governement.
(Visit the holocaust memorial museum on the internet.)Making a claim means nothing Nick. If you'd like, i could show you a picture of the pope shaking hands with Hitler.
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”We are not friends of the world Nick, nor are we a part of it, so the world hates us, as Jesus fortold.
“The principal victims of religious persecution in the United States in the twentieth century were the Jehovah’s Witnesses,” says the book The Court and the Constitution, by Archibald Cox (1987).
“Jehovah’s Witnesses . . . have been harassed and persecuted by governments the world over,” states Tony Hodges.
“In Nazi Germany they were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. During the Second World War, the [Watch Tower] Society was banned in Australia and Canada. . . . Now [in the 1970’s] the Jehovah’s Witnesses are being hounded in Africa.”—Jehovah’s Witnesses in Africa, 1985 Edition.Making claims mean nothing. It's by their fruits. A rotten tree, rotten fruit. A good tree, good fruit.
Hi david,
So the fruit you say the JW's show is mutual love, preaching the Word[in their context]and political unpopularity.To say you are better than denominational churches is not proof of the blessing of God.
The power of God shown among you would be better evidence. What about the fruit of the Spirit spoken of in Galatians?The three things you mentioned were just three things that came up in our talking. I would replace political unpopularity with “political neutrality.”
Right, anything I say isn't proof. Certain things remain undeniable however. I really can't talk now however.
The fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, etc? Yes, that fits in with the thought of “by their fruits you will recognize.” What would you like me to prove exactly?
Hi david,
Some evidence that your organisation has any relationship with the Body of Christ, either by how you join, or the work of the Spirit of God through it.I quite enjoy having these discussions Nick. I'm kind of busy now though. It's Wednesday. I'm going to a meeting, with fellow believers, where I can be encouraged and upbuilt.
HEBREWS 10:24-25
“And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”
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