Jehovah&#39;s witnesses

Participant

Quote

Perhaps we should start a thread on him?

Perhaps we should start a thread on you.

You have repeatedly attacked JW's. You have started threads on them and on what they believe. It's always the attack position with you, you asking questions, completely ignoring other peoples questions.

I have often felt that it should be turned around. But then, I would be doing no better than what you do.

June 22, 2007 at 2:29 am#56169

Participant

Hi david,
What is plain is that CT Russell was proven to be a false prophet simply by the failure of his prophecies.
What of this about the teachings of CTR which I found in another site
“
According to what I have read, Russell was a prolific writer and wrote many books. In several instances he quotes scripture, without comment or correction, stating that Christ should be worshipped. (A view I undertand that is no longer supported by Jehova's Witnesses.)

In The Harp of God he quotes Matthew 28:1-10. Verse 9 reads “And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.”

In Deliverance he states, “Crucifeixes were erected, and the worship of the people turned to these rather than to let them intelligently worship the Lord Jehovah and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

and

In the August 15th 1941 issue of the Watchtower it was explained with reference to Jesus' obedience unto death, “For this reason God has highly exalted him and given him a name above every name, and commands that all creature in heaven and earth shall worhip the Son as he worships the Father. Phil. 2:5-11”

June 22, 2007 at 2:39 am#56170

Participant

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According to what I have read, Russell was a prolific writer and wrote many books. In several instances he quotes scripture, without comment or correction, stating that Christ should be worshipped. (A view I undertand that is no longer supported by Jehova's Witnesses.

that's right nick. when we discover we make mistakes, we correct them. Thankyou for pointing that out.
Since every Bible in existence seems to say that Jesus should be worshipped, it is an understandable mistake.
But research into the word translated as worship (proskyneo) along what the bible as a whole says, made this plain.

NOW, WE COULD HAVE JUST KEPT WITH TRADITION, KEPT WITH THE COMMON POPULAR BELIEF.

The fact that we had the ability to abandon false beliefs says something about us, making us largely different from the majority of religions in the world.
We humbly accept the truth, even if it goes against what we formerly believed.

And again, I thank you for pointing that out.

June 22, 2007 at 2:42 am#56171

Participant

I wish you would go back and atually look at that post I gave a couple posts back.

I'll quote from it:

“Did they believe that they had all the answers, the full light of truth? To that question Brother Russell pointedly answered: “Certainly not; nor will we have until the ‘perfect day.’” (Prov. 4:18, KJ) Frequently they referred to their Scriptural beliefs as “present truth”—not with any idea that truth itself changes but rather with the thought that their understanding of it was progressive.”

PROVERBS 4:18
“But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”
Jehovah is also the Source of spiritual light. (Psalm 43:3)
While the world remains in dense darkness, the true God continues to illuminate the path of his people. It refines them organizationally, doctrinally, and morally.

June 22, 2007 at 2:48 am#56172

Participant

Just a quick look at what Jehovah's Witnesses are about.

June 22, 2007 at 2:50 am#56173

Participant

Hi david,
So CTR was a false prophet.
Good to hear the watchtower is aware of its failings.
Is the theory that Jesus is Michael about to be turfed out?

June 22, 2007 at 4:18 am#56174

Participant

Hi,
Fancy words and clever theology should not be what makes clear that a person is of Christ. It should be personal fruit in sound attitudes and kindly behaviours and the evidence too of signs and wonders done through them by Christ.
I have read some mixed stories about this man but perhaps David can put the record straight as to his fruit.

June 22, 2007 at 8:01 am#56201

Participant

JOHN 15:18
“If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU.”

Jesus followers would be hated by the world in general, as this and many other scriptures bear out.
There's one check for him.

MATTHEW 10:24-25
““A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his lord. It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If people have called the householder Be·el′ze·bub, how much more [will they call] those of his household so?”

Does anyone speak badly of him?
Another check for him, I guess.
I started with these things, because they are obvious, if you've been reading stories, as you say.

June 22, 2007 at 8:11 am#56204

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (david @ June 22 2007,20:01)

JOHN 15:18
“If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU.”

Jesus followers would be hated by the world in general, as this and many other scriptures bear out.
There's one check for him.

Does anyone speak badly of him?
Another check for him, I guess.
I started with these things, because they are obvious, if you've been reading stories, as you say.

Some times, David, people get reproved because they are wrong. You need to get over your Watchtower persecution complex….

June 22, 2007 at 8:42 pm#56228

Participant

Hi david,
From another site.
“The Watchtower Society

& Baptism

In the Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses, a public baptism at one of their conventions marks the recruit's decision to be one of them. It is no easy matter to be baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The recruit must have previously shown his willingness to study, attended meetings, trained for the field service, and actually gone house-to-house before baptism is considered.

Once a recruit bows to the pressure to be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness, he must embark on further study of the subject. Once prepared, he must submit to a long list of questions regarding his loyalty to the organization and its doctrines. Only upon completion of this grilling is he issued a certificate indicating that he is a candidate for baptism. He is then registered at the convention as a baptismal candidate and undergoes the actual baptism by immersion in water.

The Watchtower Magazine of June 1, l985, page 30 says of baptism,

“Before reaching this point of baptism, all candidates have carefully reviewed with congregation elders the Bible's principal doctrines and guidelines for Christian conduct to make sure they really qualify for baptism. Thus the decision to be baptized is by no means a sudden emotional reaction. Rather, each one has “proved for himself the good and acceptable and perfect will of God” and wishes to submit to that will. — Romans 1:22

Of course, prior to baptism, the elders make sure that the candidate understands that “the good and acceptable and perfect will of God” is nothing less than absolute obedience to the Watchtower Organization. In fact, after all this, just prior to the actual baptism, each candidate answers two questions. The first question is,

“On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?”

The candidate answers “yes”, understanding this to mean that he is dedicated to Jehovah God through his organization. The second question the baptismal candidate must answer is very revealing.

“Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

The Watchtower article from which these questions are taken (WT June 1/85, p. 30), then goes on to state, “Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism”.

What a long, drawn-out ordeal to be baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses! Rather than being baptized because of repentance of sins and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ as were all examples in the bible, Jehovah's Witnesses must be baptized in the name of the organization and thereafter submit to it.”
Is this following Jesus or the watchtower?

June 23, 2007 at 8:08 pm#56284

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2007,08:42)

“Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

This scares me!

David, thanks for sharing the video. As a matter of fact, two JW's came to my door this morning and gave me the literature on the, “Follow the Christ” conventions that will be going on. We chatted for a good half hour this morning.

We mainly talked about preexistence and the fact that they believe Jesus is/was the archangel. I just can't get past that. To be honest, there are many things that I admire about the JW's – I really do. But the “who” and the “what” is Jesus keeps me from joining them.

June 23, 2007 at 8:51 pm#56286

Participant

I just got done reading some of the literature that the ladies dropped off this morning. One paper is entitled, “The Bible's Viewpoint – Who is Michael the Archangel?” and I'd like to quote something from it:

“While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel (1 Thess. 4:16)………….he [Jesus] speaks with “an archangels voice.” END QUOTE

The paper goes on to discuss that Jesus used an archangel's “voice” and this can only mean that he is the one and only archangle who is Michael.

I hate to keep sounding like a broken record here – but what happened to the true conception and birth that Jesus is said to have had in the gospels? What about THAT Jesus?

June 24, 2007 at 8:31 am#56312

Participant

Hi Not3,
You say
'To be honest, there are many things that I admire about the JW's – I really do. But the “who” and the “what” is Jesus keeps me from joining them. '

Why would you even consider cutting yourself off from Christ
by following men like Mr Russell?

June 24, 2007 at 9:09 am#56318

Participant

Quote

I hate to keep sounding like a broken record here – but what happened to the true conception and birth that Jesus is said to have had in the gospels? What about THAT Jesus?

–Not3in1.

What about that Jesus? He did exist in heaven. I know you have some ideas about this not being the case, based on an analogy of your husband, but I gave you several scriptures on Jesus' existence before he “became flesh” and you neglected to consider those scriptures. (Unless you responded and I missed it somehow.)

Anyway, I know I've already put this information in a couple of these JW threads and in a couple of the Michael the Archangel threads, but I'll put it here again, for the record, since you've brought it up a few times.

At least, then, you will know exactly why we actually believe what we do.

I'll try to find what I've already posted.

June 24, 2007 at 9:32 am#56321

Participant

John A. Lees asserted:
“The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael (the archangel) with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the Juxtaposition of the ‘child’ and the archangel in Revelation 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Dnl [Daniel]…”–John A. Lees, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1930, Vol. III, p.2048.

Also, J. N. D. Kelly noted:
“In a number of passages (from church father Hermas) we read of an angel who is superior to the six angels forming God’s inner council, and who is regularly described as ‘most venerable’, ‘holy’, and ‘glorious’. This angel is given the name Michael; and the conclusion is difficult to escape that Hermas saw in him the Son of God and equated him with the archangel Michael.”–J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (Harper Brothers), p. 95

WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?

The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name–“Who is Like God?”
He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS)

THINGS TO KEEP IN MIND

WHAT IS AN ANGEL?
Both the Hebrew mal́akh́ and the Greek aǵgelos literally mean “messenger.” From the first book of the Bible to the last, these words occur nearly 400 times. When spirit messengers are indicated, the words are translated “angels,” but if the reference definitely is to human creatures, the rendering is “messengers.” (Ge 16:7; 32:3; Jas 2:25; Re 22:8.)
Some object to identifying Jesus with the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. For Trinitarians, of course, such an identification poses a problem since it shows conclusively that he is not equal to Jehovah God. But even some who do not accept the Trinity doctrine feel that Jesus’ identity with an angel somehow detracts from his dignity.
Remember, though, that the basic meaning of “angel” (Hebrew, mal·’akh́; Greek, aǵge·los) is “messenger.” As the “Word” (Greek, lógos), Jesus is God’s messenger par excellence. Remember, too, that as the archangel, as well as “the firstborn of all creation,” Jesus had the highest rank among the angels even before he came to earth.—Colossians 1:15.
True, the apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews: “He [Jesus] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.” (Hebrews 1:4; Philippians 2:9, 10) However, this describes his situation after his having been here on earth. He was still the archangel and “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Revelation 3:14) But he became better than the angels. The ‘more excellent name’ or position is something he did not possess before coming to earth.
*(These scriptures contradict the Trinitarian concept that the Son is and always has been equal in every way to the Father.)

WHY SO FEW ANGELS NAMED IN THE BIBLE?
The Bible contains the personal names of only two angels, Gabriel (meaning “Able-Bodied One of God”) and Michael (Who Is Like God?). Perhaps so as not to receive undue honor or veneration, angels at times did not reveal their names to persons to whom they appeared.—Ge 32:29; Jg 13:17, 18.

WHY DOES GOD SOMETIMES CHANGE A PERSONS NAME?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. Saul as Paul. (Gen 49:1,2; Mat 10:2; Acts 13:7
God has also changed peoples names when they take on new roles. While dying, Rachel called her newborn son Ben-oni (meaning “Son of My Mourning”), but her bereaved husband Jacob chose to name him Benjamin (Son of the Right Hand). (Ge 35:16-18)
An event in a person’s later life sometimes provided the basis for giving a new name to a person.
. Esau, for example, got his name Edom (meaning “Red”) from the red lentil stew for which he sold his birthright.—Ge 25:30-34.
Jehovah changed the name of Abram to Abraham (Father of a Crowd (Multitude)) and that of Sarai (possibly, Contentious) to Sarah (Princess), both new names being prophetic. (Ge 17:5, 6, 15, 16) Because of his perseverance in grappling with an angel, Jacob was told: “Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel [Contender (Perseverer) With God; or, God Contends], for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed.” (Ge 32:28) This change in name was a token of God’s blessing and was later confirmed. (Ge 35:10) Evidently, therefore, when the Scriptures prophetically speak of “a new name,” the reference is to a name that would appropriately represent its bearer.—Isa 62:2; 65:15; Re 3:12.
Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth.

WHY ALMOST EVERYONE HAS TO REJECT THIS BELIEF
As one website said: “Michael the Archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. . . . Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1,14). Michael the Archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.” ” If Jesus is God Almighty, uncreated, etc, of course he is not an angel. Unfortunately, the trinity doctrine is false. A related idea that seems to come up with this is the idea that Jesus was worshiped, and the angels aren’t worshiped. Unfortunately for this idea, the word “proskyneo” has many meanings and the translator decides which is appropriate. Jesus was not worshipped. And he is not God almighty.
So when people say there is much evidence against this belief, often what they mean is that they feel there is a lot of evidence for the trinity.

MOST USED ARGUMENT AGAINST THIS BELIEF: HEBREWS 1:5,13; 2:5
Hebrews 1:5 – “For to what angel did God ever say, ‘Thou art my Son…’”
Hebrews 1:13 – “But to what angel has he ever said, ‘Sit at my right hand…’”
Hebrews 2:5 – “For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come…”
(Revised Standard Version)

Since God said to Jesus ‘Thou art my Son’, ‘Sit at my right hand’ and subjected the coming world to him, then it would appear Jesus is not an angel, UNLESS JESUS IS AN ANGEL IN A WAY THAT DIFFERENTIATES HIM FROM OTHERS.

HEBREWS 1 AND 2 COULD JUST AS EASILY BE DIFFERENTIATING JESUS AS AN ANGEL FROM OTHER ANGELS AS IT COULD MEAN THAT HE IS NOT AN ANGEL.

EXAMPLE 1
To illustrate this point, look at Psalm 82:7, where Jehovah said to Israelite judges:
“Nevertheless, you shall die like men and fall like any prince.” (Revised Standard Version)
Does the expression “you shall die like men” mean that those judges were not men? Or does it mean that they were being differentiated from ordinary men? ? In a similar way, the Hebrew passages could be complying with this same idea, that is, that Jesus though an angel, is to be distinguished from “ordinary” angels.

EXAMPLE 2
Another example might be brought forth to demonstrate this thinking. The account at Acts 23:9 reads:
“And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees’ part arose, and strove, saying we find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.” (KJV)
Some scholars understand that the “spirit” referred to here is a demon while the “angel” referred to one of the faithful holy angels. But does that mean that “angels” are not “spirits” since the passage reads “spirit or an angel”? No, the Scriptures are plain that angels are spirits. (See Psalm 104:1,
4; Hebrew 1:7; 1 Kings 22:20-22.) Notwithstanding that fact, angels are differentiated from spirits at Acts 23:9. Could this same principle apply with respect to the citations from Hebrews 1:5, 13 and 2:5 and the question of Jesus’ status as an angel?

IF JESUS IS AN ANGEL, HOW COULD HE HAVE ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
HEBREWS 2:8
“All things you subjected under his feet.” For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him;”
We know that the scripture quoted says that God subjected all things (including angels) under Jesus feet, and that nothing was not subject to him. Some could take this extremely literally and close your eyes to logic and say that this includes God.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:27
“For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ IT IS EVIDENT THAT IT IS WITH THE EXCEPTION of the one who subjected all things to him.”
But obviously, as 1 Cor 15:27 points out, it is with the obvious exception of the one who subjected all things to him.
Similarly, although no scripture says it, when we are told that both Jesus is and Michael (THE ARCHANGEL) is the leader of angels, it should be “evident that it is with the exception” of Jesus or Michael himself.
Yes, Michael has “his angels” under him. DOES THIS MEAN THAT MICHAEL CAN NOT BE AN ANGEL? Ridiculous. It is “evident” although not stated, that Michael’s angels under his control do not include himself. It is just as “evident” that Jesus could have angels under his subjection and be himself an angel.

JESUS IS NOT “JUST AN ANGEL.”
The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6). Again, a differentiation. Yet, a similarity.
Jesus is many things. As the “Word” (Greek, lógos), Jesus is God’s messenger par excellence. Remember, too, that as the archangel, as well as “the firstborn of all creation,” Jesus had the highest rank among the angels even before he came to earth.—Colossians 1:15.
JESUS UNIQUE, BUT THIS DOESN’T MEAN….
“Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright,”
Job was unique. No question. Jehovah himself said that there was “no one like him in all the earth.”
Maybe, similarly, there is no like just like Jesus in heaven. I truly believe that. I believe it just as much as I believe Jehovah's words about Job.
But that doesn't mean Jesus isn't an angel anymore than it means that Job was not a man.
Job was the greatest of the orientals, unique, but he was a man.
I believe Jesus was the arch angel, unique, but still, he could be classified as an angel, and is.

SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE THAT POINTS TO MICHAEL BEING JESUS

POINT 1 With Pharaoh’s armies pursuing them, Moses and the Israelites were accompanied by an angel through the miraculously parted Red Sea. At Exodus 14:19-22, we find:
“Then the angel of the true God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. On the one hand it proved to be a cloud together with darkness. On the other hand it kept lighting up the night. And this group did not come near that group all night long. Moses now stretched his hand out over the sea; and Jehovah began making the sea go back by a strong east wind all night long and converting the sea basin into dry ground and the waters being split apart. At length the sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on dry land…” (NWT)
The Apostle Paul identified the angel that followed them through the Red Sea at 1 Corinthians 10:1-4:
“Now I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ.” (NWT)

POINT 2 ((CONNECTED TO POINT 1))
Interestingly, the angel that had been assigned to Israel is named “Michael” in other passages. (See Exodus 23:20-23; Daniel 10:21; Daniel 12:1.)
EXODUS 23:20-23
““Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon YOUR transgression; because my name is within him. However, if you strictly obey his voice and really do all that I shall speak, then I shall certainly be hostile to your enemies and harass those who harass you. For my angel will go ahead of you and will indeed bring you to the Aḿor·ites and the Hit́tites and the Peŕiz·zites and the Cánaan·ites, the Hívites and the Jeb́u·sites, and I shall certainly efface them.”
DANIEL 10:21
“However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mícha·el, the prince of YOU people.”
DANIEL 12:1
““And during that time Mícha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, every one who is found written down in the book.”

POINT 3 (((THIS POINT IS A POINT IN ITSELF))
The Apostle Paul made this comment:
“And what was a trial to you in my flesh, you did not treat with contempt or spit at in disgust; but you received me like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus”. (Galatians 4:14) (NWT)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
“and my trial that [is] in my flesh ye did not despise nor reject, but as a messenger of God ye did receive me — as Christ Jesus;”
There is certainly the sense here that being received like an angel was the same as being received like Jesus Christ. Doesn’t this suggest then that Jesus Christ is an angel, albeit an exceptional one?

POINT 4
Who is abaddon, the “angel of the abyss”? In the highly symbolic book of Revelation, chapter nine depicts the disciplining of individuals who “have not the seal of God in their forehead.” Those administering the discipline are said to have “a King over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon”. (vss. 4, 11) (King James Version). Who is this angel who is a over subjects of God performing his will? We know that Jesus is called a King in heaven and so too Jehovah and humans that are resurrected to heaven. Clearly, Jehovah is not the “angel who is a King” and the heavenbound resurrected humans are not angels at all. Doesn’t this leave Jesus as the likely candidate? (Jeremiah 10:10; Zechariah 14:9; Psalm 2:6-8; Luke 1:32,33; Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; and 2 Timothy 2:11,12)

At Revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be God’s representative from heaven. He performs his work of destruction at God’s bidding.
In the Hebrew scriptures, it is evident that ’avad·dohń is paralleled with death and Sheol. (Ps 88:11; Job 26:6; 28:22; Pr 15:11) At Revelation 1:18 we find Christ Jesus stating: “I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” His power with regard to the abyss is shown at Luke 8:31, where the demons “kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss.” That Jesus has destroying power, including the power of destruction over Satan, is evident from Hebrews 2:14, which say
s that Jesus partook of blood and flesh in order that “through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.” At Revelation 19:11-16 he is clearly represented as God’s appointed Destroyer or Executioner.

The use of the related verb a·poĺly·mi is found in James 4:12, which says of God: “One there is that is lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy.” (Compare Mt 10:28.) The unclean spirit cast out of a man by Jesus in a synagogue at Capernaum acknowledged Jesus as God’s agent and said: “What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarene? Did you come to destroy us?” (Mr 1:24; Lu 4:34) Jesus warned unrepentant opposers among his listeners of the danger of being destroyed. (Lu 13:3-5; 20:16) These and other texts point to the glorified Christ Jesus as the one referred to by this title.—Compare Re 19:11-16; Lu 8:31

POINT 5
JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE.
Commenting on one aspect of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, Apostle Paul wrote:
“because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16) (NWT)
If Jesus is not the archangel in this event and he is superior to the archangel, then why would he perform this act as though he was someone of lower rank? Wouldn’t he be using an archangel’s voice because he is an archangel?
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.” Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority?
For example, a king is above a noble. If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble. If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king. To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, UNLESS HE WAS BOTH A NOBLE AND A KING.
It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.

POINT 5B
Also, notice the second half of 1 Thess 4:16: “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” Now let’s look at Jesus’ words:
““Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:25-29)
A comparison of these two scriptures seems to indicate that Jesus and Michael are the same person.
It is Jehovah’s will for Jesus to resurrect the dead. (John 6:38-40) Jesus issues “a commanding call” to the dead to come forth, just as he did on occasion while on earth. (John 11:43) But now he calls, not with a man’s voice as he did then, but with all the power of “an archangel’s voice” (en pho·né arkh·ag·gélou). However, only an archangel can call with an archangel’s voice! And no one but Jesus has been given the authority to resurrect the dead. Again, at John 5 and 1 Thessalonians we see the same event–one names Michael, and one names Jesus.

POINT 5C
For those who said: ‘It was just an archangels voice accompanying Jesus, but it wasn’t Jesus himself who had the commanding call.’ John 5:25,28 solves the problem: “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.”
So in 1 thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right. Michael the Archangel must be Jesus!
In both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event and Jesus and Michael must be the same person.

POINT 7
“ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE.
Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is only found in the singular, never in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.
Adding to this, I would like to say that some like to use the phrase: “Archangels” or speak of them in plural. The Bible never does this. Perhaps they are taking this belief from the The book of Enoch, a non-biblical book, which while it may be useful for historical purposes, also contains falsehoods, as even supporters of it have stated, and it is not part of the inspired Word of God.
On this point, a website that was trying to refute Jehovah’s Witnesses stated:
“Michael is the only angel called “the archangel” (Jude 1:9) and he is called “the” archangel as if he were the only one. In this one matter, I agree with the adversary [Jehovah’s Witnesses]. The prefix “arch” means main, chief, or principal. I do not know how many chief angels there are. One seems enough. The teaching that there are other archangels is traditional. It is not directly taught in scripture.”

POINT 8
WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”?
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16)
REVELATION 12:7
“And war broke out in heaven: Mícha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled”
REVELATION 19:11-14
“And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God. Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen.”
Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31)
Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them.
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven wher
e he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.
Jesus himself is the one who leads the armies of Heaven to judge and make war against Satan! Which brings us to our next point.
***
Since Jesus is the one prophesied to crush Satan’s head, and since he accomplishes all these other judgment acts, it is only logical to conclude that he would lead heaven’s armies in the casting of Satan out of heaven. Hence, the conquering Michael referred to in Revelation 12 must be Jesus, who was told by Jehovah to “go subduing in the midst of [his] enemies.”—Psalm 110:1, 2; Acts 2:34, 35.

POINT 9
WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ.
MATTHEW 24:31
“And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.”
2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-10
“but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God.”
MATTHEW 16:27
“For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.”
MATTHEW 25:31,41
““When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. . . .Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.””
MARK 8:38
“For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.””
MATTHEW 13:41
“The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness,”
The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.
The Bible states that war broke out in heaven and that “Michael and HIS angels battled with the dragon….and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels.
Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) It is “his army” of angels. (Rev 19:19) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels” (2 Thess 1:7; Mat 16:27; 24:31; 1 Pet 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Mat 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

POINT 10
JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDDON

Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.

Having considered both some historical and scriptural data, it ought to be clear that the argument that Jesus is or was the principal angel, even Michael the archangel, is not without some weight and ought not be discounted as untrue.

JESUS IS GOD’S PRIMARY MESSENGER, HIS “ARCH” “ANGEL.”
Jesus was God's greatest messenger, among other things. He was God's Word, his chief messenger, if you will, ie: “arch” “angel.”
So, even if Jesus isn't the archangel spoken of, to say he could never be termed an arch angel (chief messenger) is to close your eyes to what the very word “arch” and “angel” mean. The term fits him perfectly.

Jesus is the Word of God, Jehovah’s own personal Spokesman. (John 1:14)
When he read aloud his commission from Isaiah chapter 61, it was clear that he was to proclaim a message. (Luke 4:16-21)
Jehovah sent Jesus to the earth. Jesus brought his Father’s message. While others delivered messages from God, Jesus was by far, the arch “chief” or “principal” messenger.

cAN'T REMEMBER if I put this in here, anywhere:

ARMY LEADER:
The Bible states that “Michael and HIS angels battled with the dragon….and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels” (2 Thess 1:7; Mat 16:27; 24:31; 1 Pet 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Mat 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDDON
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.

As a side note, the word archangel means “chief angel” or cheif messenger or as some think chief over the angels. (I believe this is what the seventh day adventists believe, that Jesus is the archangel, chief of the angels, which would also be true, obviously.)

Nick, I don't expect a responce from you. We've already had this conversation several times. If you want answers from me, please see our many other dialogues. This info was just to show, at the least that there are scriptural reasons for this belief, and to show it to Not3.

david

June 24, 2007 at 9:34 am#56322

Participant

Quote

As a matter of fact, two JW's came to my door this morning and gave me the literature on the, “Follow the Christ” conventions that will be going on.

What country are you from and when will this convention take place in your neck of the world?

June 24, 2007 at 8:50 pm#56365

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2007,20:31)

Hi Not3,
You say
'To be honest, there are many things that I admire about the JW's – I really do. But the “who” and the “what” is Jesus keeps me from joining them. '

Why would you even consider cutting yourself off from Christ
by following men like Mr Russell?

I admire the JW's because of their community. I admire their family values and the fact that they carve out large amounts of time in their schedules to hit the pavement and go door to door. I also admire them for standing out in the crowd and being separate from the world on so many issues like; celebrating pagen holidays (I personally love celebrating these holidays), but I respect their dedication, I guess. Anyway, these two ladies that visit me have won my respect for them. They were the ones who told me that the Trinity wasn't true.

June 24, 2007 at 8:53 pm#56366

Participant

Quote (david @ June 24 2007,21:34)

Quote

As a matter of fact, two JW's came to my door this morning and gave me the literature on the, “Follow the Christ” conventions that will be going on.

What country are you from and when will this convention take place in your neck of the world?

I'm in WA State and it looks like it will happen June 29 – July 1st.

June 24, 2007 at 9:01 pm#56367

Participant

Hi david,
Scripture never says Jesus is Michael.
Michael is only a glorious servant prince.
Christ is not an angel, rather the Prince of princes
But Scripture has never carried much weight with your mentors.

June 24, 2007 at 9:04 pm#56370