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Quote Who are the predecessors of the JWs? A GREAT LINE OF WITNESSES
According to the Bible, the line of witnesses of Jehovah reaches back to faithful Abel. Hebrews 11:4–12:1 says:
“By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain . . . By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear . . . By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance . . . By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin . . . So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.”
I guess my answer to your question is: Who preceeded abel? Abel was a witness (someone who speaks the truth about something) of Jehovah God.
There is a long line of witnesses of Jehovah stretching through history.
“JESUS CHRIST, THE FAITHFUL WITNESS”
With reference to Jesus Christ, the Bible states: “These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.”
Of whom was he a witness? He himself said that he made his Father’s name manifest. He was the foremost witness of Jehovah.—Rev. 3:14; John 17:6. (Compare Rev 1:5; 1 Timothy 6:13)“JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”–OUR NAME
At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity, and you will find that when comparing their beliefs and their actions to the first century Christians, they are oddly similar.
(Is 1:18, if you check the scriptures, you'll find that the apostasy was 'already at work' in the time of the apostles, that they were the last “restraint” holding back the tide of apostasy. I'd love to share the quotes with you and give you a time line, but this post will be long enough.)“Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after. . . . I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange `god' among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God.”
—Isaiah 43:10, 12, American Standard Version.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have accepted their name in fulfillment of Jehovah’s promise to his covenant people at Isaiah 43:10. This does not mean, however, that they no longer follow Jesus Christ. Jesus is their Leader, the one whose pattern they follow. He himself is the leading witness of Jehovah.A NEW TEACHING ?
Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented “a new teaching.” (Mark 1:27) Later, some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a “new teaching.” (Acts 17:19, 20) It was new to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God’s Word.
RESTORATION OF TRUE WORSHIP IN THE FINAL PART OF THE DAYSIn an illustration about wheat and weeds, Jesus foretold that true religion would be virtually obscured for a time. (Mat 13:24-30, 36-43)
Very soon after the death of Jesus’ apostles a perverted, counterfeit Christianity appeared on the world stage. It was dominated by what the Bible calls “the lawless one”—a corrupt clergy class that was itself steeped in “every unrighteous deception.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-10) Jesus foretold that this situation would change “in the conclusion of the system of things.” (Mat 13:39) It would have to change, for Jesus foretold that during the “conclusion of the system of things” a global preaching work would be done by his followers. (Mat 24:3, 24)
Both Isaiah’s and Micah’s prophecies foretell a re-gathering of true worshipers “in the final part of the days.”Isaiah says: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’” (Isaiah 2:2,3; Micah 4:1-3)
A clear-eyed look at the facts shows that Isaiah’s prophecy is being fulfilled in our time. (Compare Mat 24:14)
The modern-day history of Jehovah’s Witnesses began with the forming of a group for Bible study in Allegheny, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., in the early 1870’s.
The location of their world headquarters there has helped to make it possible to print and ship Bible literature to most parts of the world. But the Witnesses do not favor one nation over another; they are found in almost every nation, and they have offices in many parts of the earth to supervise their activity in those areas.
(Consider: Jesus as a Jew was born in Palestine, but Christianity is not a Palestinian religion, is it? What Jesus taught originated with his Father, Jehovah God, who deals impartially with people of all nations.—John 14:10; Acts 10:34, 35.)
So how was “the mountain of the house of Jehovah” to become firmly established in the “final part of the days”? Who are the ones, the “many people” saying: ”Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah”?PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS–EVERYWHERE.
Jesus foretold for our day this work: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”–Mat. 24:14He also instructed his followers: : “Go . . . and make disciples of people of all the nations.”—Mat. 28:19
The message that the Witnesses proclaim involves the lives of people. (Zeph 2:2,3) Therefore they actively “search out” those who wish to hear of this good news, by going to the homes of people, in accordance with Jesus words: “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ . . . .“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet.”–Mat. 10:7,11-14
The apostle Paul said regarding his ministry: “I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.”—Acts 20:20, 21
Notice how Christians of that time reached people with the good news: “And every day in the temple and from house to house* they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.”–Acts 5:42
(*Lit., “according to house.” Gr., kat’ oíkon. Here ka·tá is used with the accusative sing. in the distributive sense. R. C. H. Lenski, in his work The Interpretation of The Acts of the Apostles, Minneapolis (1961), made the foll
owing comment on Ac 5:42: “Never for a moment did the apostles cease their blessed work. ‘Every day’ they continued, and this openly ‘in the Temple’ where the Sanhedrin and the Temple police could see and hear them, and, of course, also κατ’ οικον, which is distributive, ‘from house to house,’ and not merely adverbial, ‘at home.’ ”)Jesus “designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come.” These were not just to preach in public places but were also to contact people at their homes. Jesus instructed them: “Wherever you enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’”—Lu 10:1-7.
Their calls are motivated by love—first for God, also for their neighbor.
A conference of religious leaders in Spain noted this: “Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greatest preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advantage of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.
Of course, we also do “informal witnessing” or “street witnessing” or “telephone witnessing” or letter writing, or whatever may work.
But the method set out by Jesus works best.CHANGES OVER THE YEARS
The Bible shows that Jehovah enables his servants to understand his purpose in a progressive manner. (Prov. 4:18; John 16:12) Thus, the prophets who were divinely inspired to write portions of the Bible did not understand the meaning of everything that they wrote. (Dan. 12:8, 9; 1 Pet. 1:10-12) The apostles of Jesus Christ realized that there was much they did not understand in their time. (Acts 1:6, 7; 1 Cor. 13:9-12) The Bible shows that there would be a great increase in knowledge of the truth during “the time of the end.” (Dan. 12:4) Increased knowledge often requires adjustments in one’s thinking. Jehovah’s Witnesses are willing humbly to make such adjustments.
HOW IS THE WORK OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES FINANCED?
By voluntary contributions, as was true with the early Christians. (2 Cor. 8:12; 9:7) No collections are ever taken at their meetings; they do not beg for money from the public. Any donations from interested persons are used to further the worldwide work of Bible education conducted by the Witnesses.
Witnesses are not paid to go from house to house or to offer Bible literature on the streets. Love for God and for neighbor motivates them to talk about God’s loving provisions for mankind.
The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, a legal religious corporation that is used by Jehovah’s Witnesses, was incorporated in 1884 in accordance with the Nonprofit Corporation Law of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, U.S.A. Thus, by law it cannot be, and it is not, a profit-making enterprise, nor do individuals make a profit through this Society. The Society’s charter states: “It [the Society] does not contemplate pecuniary gain or profit, incidentally or otherwise, to its members, directors or officers.”Here's a good question, and something that doesn't get discussed on here very often:
WHY DOES JEHOVAH HAVE WITNESSES?The answers have to do with issues being tried in a universal court case—by far the most crucial case ever to be argued. Thousands of years ago a challenge was hurled against Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty.
The tree that God employed for a symbolic purpose in connection with Adam and Eve was called “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and because he commanded that the first human pair not eat from it, the tree fittingly symbolized God’s right to determine for humans what is “good” (pleasing to God) and what is “bad” (displeasing to God). The presence of this tree thus tested man’s respect for God’s sovereignty. Sadly, the first human pair disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden fruit. They failed this simple yet profound test of obedience and appreciation.—Gen. 3:1-6.
Humans were created, not like robots, but with freedom. Their freedom, though, was relative, subject to the rule of God’s laws. (Compare Jeremiah 10:23, 24.) Adam and Eve chose to eat of the forbidden fruit. They thus abused their freedom. What led them to this course?
By eating of the tree, Adam and Eve placed their judgment above God’s, indicating that they wanted to judge for themselves what is good and what is bad.—Gen. 3:22.
The issue thus raised was, Does Jehovah have the right to rule humankind, and does he exercise his sovereignty in the best interests of his subjects? This issue was clearly implied by the Serpent’s words to Eve: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” The implication was that God was wrongfully withholding something good from the woman and her husband.—Gen. 3:1.
The rebellion in Eden raised another issue: Can humans under test be faithful to God? This related issue was put in clear focus 24 centuries later in connection with faithful Job. Satan, the ‘voice’ behind the serpent, challenged Jehovah to His face, saying: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?” Satan charged: “Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth.” Satan thus intimated that Job’s uprightness was motivated by self-interest. He further charged: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.” Since, as Jehovah had noted, ‘there was no one like Job in the earth,’ Satan was really claiming that he could turn any servant of God away from Him. (Job 1:8-11; 2:4) All of God’s servants were thus indirectly challenged regarding their integrity and loyalty to His sovereignty.
Once raised, the issues had to be settled. The passage of time—about 6,000 years now—and the miserable failure of human governments clearly demonstrate that humans need God’s sovereignty. But do they want it? Are there humans who will manifest heartfelt recognition of Jehovah’s righteous sovereignty? Yes! Jehovah has his witnesses!
A witness relates facts from direct personal knowledge, or he proclaims views or truths of which he is convinced.
The faithful course of first-century Christians carried the meaning of “witness” a step farther. Many of those early Christians witnessed under persecution and in the face of death. (Acts 22:20; Rev. 2:13) As a result, by about the second century C.E., the Greek word for witness (maŕtys, from which is also derived the word “martyr”) acquired the meaning that applied to persons who were willing to “seal the seriousness of their witness or confession by death.” They were not called witnesses because they died; they died because they were loyal witnesses.PSALM 9:10
“Those knowing your name will trust in you, for you will certainly not leave those looking for you, O Jehovah.”random scriptures:
PSALM 91:14
“Because on me he has set his affection, I shall also provide him with escape. I shall protect him because he has come to know my name.”MALACHI 3:16
“At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.”ACTS 15:14
“Syḿe·on has related thoroughly how God for the f
irst time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.”ISAIAH 43:1,7
“And now this is what Jehovah has said . . . .everyone that is called by my name and that I have created for my own glory, that I have formed, yes, that I have made.’”MICAH 4:5
“For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.”I guess the answer to your question, Is 1:18, which I kind of went off course on, is that we really have no predessesors. There have always been witnesses of Jehovah. They were not called “Jehovah's Witnesses” but that's what they were. When the Christians came around, these too witnesses about Jehovah and of course, his son. Jesus himself was the greatest witness of Jehovah, being the “faithful witness” or the “faithful and true witness” as the scriptures say. We try to follow Jesus' in this example.
david
Quote I have nothing but respect for the ladies that “work” our neighborhood 
They were the ones who first shared with me that the Trinity wasn't true! I may not be a converted JW (in fact I am a spiritual mis-fit, I'm afraid), but I do thank them for giving me that truth. Hi Not3in1.
All true followers of Christ are misfits, as you say. They are all different, stand out, separate from the world and it's ways, beliefs, philosphies, attitudes, standards of conduct, etc.
If you aren't a misfit, something is wrong.
JAMES 4:4:
“Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”
If you are not a friend of the world, you would have to be different from the world. True Christians are “no part of the world” as Jesus said of his followers, separate from the world, as Jesus himself was.ACTS 28:22
“But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.””True Christianity hasn't changed. It is still spoken against, everywhere. It is not a friend of the world. It is on the outside, a misfit, as you say.
Quote His true church his body has never died or been snuffed out, but has been alive and well since the day of Penticost. WJ, there have always been witnesses of Jehovah. But it wasn't until the last days of this world that Jesus words would be fulfilled:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”This preaching work that Jesus fortold required organization on a global scale.
To quote what I just said:
“RESTORATION OF TRUE WORSHIP IN THE FINAL PART OF THE DAYS
In an illustration about wheat and weeds, Jesus foretold that true religion would be virtually obscured for a time. (Mat 13:24-30, 36-43)
Very soon after the death of Jesus’ apostles a perverted, counterfeit Christianity appeared on the world stage. It was dominated by what the Bible calls “the lawless one”—a corrupt clergy class that was itself steeped in “every unrighteous deception.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-10) Jesus foretold that this situation would change “in the conclusion of the system of things.” (Mat 13:39) It would have to change, for Jesus foretold that during the “conclusion of the system of things” a global preaching work would be done by his followers. (Mat 24:3, 24)
Both Isaiah’s and Micah’s prophecies foretell a re-gathering of true worshipers “in the final part of the days.” Isaiah says: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’” (Isaiah 2:2,3; Micah 4:1-3)”
Interesting sidenote, I was wanting to mention earlier:[Gk. “mar′tys” (witnesses) from where we get the English word “martyr”)
Is 1:18 says:
Quote Looking back through church history the only group I see that resembles the Watchtower was the arians
If by the Watchtower, you're speaking of Jehovah's modern day witnesses, I would say that we resemble the early Christians.The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph:
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. Their services are kept simple. They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity. All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.”
(Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6)I know the arians believe some things we definitely do not. But I can't find any great way the earliest Christians differ from us.
Quote It's also significant that they didn't show up until the 4th century and their views were very much a novelty at that time. So I would think that David would be reluctant to associate his denomination with them.
Is 1:18, in the days of Sodom, perhaps heterosexuality was a “novelty.”
In the days of Noah, righteousness was a novelty. An appeal to tradition is nonsence when we consider that the apostasy was “ALREADY AT WORK” in the first century. How many forms of Christianity was there by the end of the second century? 20? 50? I'll find the number.Is 1:18, I may have asked this before, but are you with any organized Christian group? Or are you all alone? If not, which group?
Catholic?
That was a joke.
(I still can't find that reference I was looking for. It shows how the “Christians” were split up into so many sects so very early in history, and how amazingly quicky the fortold apostasy was working, like gangrene, as fortold.)
A moment after I wrote that, I remembered:
Will durant states:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.So by the 4th century, when you're speaking of the arians, there were about 80 forms of Christianity, all teaching different things, following different traditions of men. You say that what the arians believed was a novelty. Well I know that what the earliest Christians taught was also a novelty at the time. It still is, really. Christianity today is a novelty, or at least that's what Jesus indicated. He said few would be on the narrow road, that “many” would say “lord Lord” who were really workers of lawlessness.
So what your saying, David, is that you cannot identify even one ante-nicene christian group that had commonality in theology with the WT. That confirms what I thought – the JWs are a johnny come lately, a very recent emergence in the christian landscape (like the mormons, unitarians etc), a pseudochristian organisation with absolutely no roots in early church history.
Quote So what your saying, David, is that you cannot identify even one ante-nicene christian group that had commonality in theology with the WT. Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. Before Christ, there were true worshippers of Jehovah. While Christ was on earth, there were true worshippers of Jehovah and followers of Christ. (Christians)
ACTS 20:29-30
“I [Paul] know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU [the overseers of the Christian congregation] and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among YOU yourselves [the overseers] men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”This explains the following history, as I already quoted:
Quote Will durant states:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.These multiple varieties of Christianity was a result of the fortold apostasy.
Please go back and consider the section:
Quote RESTORATION OF TRUE WORSHIP IN THE FINAL PART OF THE DAYS
Jesus fortold the great global preaching work in the conclusion of this world. That work (which would take place at a specific time [the last days]) would result in the growth of true worshippers of Jehovah God Almighty.
There is one group and one alone who are doing this work today, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom in such a way.MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
YOu could try to say that the mormons are doing it, but only 1 out of 200 are involved in this work, whereas all JW's witness about Jehovah.Anyway, looking at the weeds and the wheat illustration, it seems that the wheat would be overgrown by weeds making the wheat not even discernable UNTIL the conclusion of this system of things, when that fortold preaching work would also be taking place.
Quote So what your saying, David, is that you cannot identify even one ante-nicene christian group that had commonality in theology with the WT. That confirms what I thought – the JWs are a johnny come lately, a very recent emergence in the christian landscape (like the mormons, unitarians etc), a pseudochristian organisation with absolutely no roots in early church history.
Really Is 1:18, the Jewish pharisees would most likely have said the same of the earliest Christians. I'm sure they did. I guess that's something else we share with them.
Actually, I know there were those that did. It's in the scriptures. There were those that called Christianity a “new teaching.”Quote A NEW TEACHING ?
Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented “a new teaching.” (Mark 1:27) Later, some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a “new teaching.” (Acts 17:19, 20) It was new to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God’s Word.They called Christianity a “new teaching.” Really, it wasn't.
You call JW's the same. You are wrong as well.Yes, there was a restoration of true worship, a change. But, there certainly was one with the Christians as well. The Jews had turned from Jehovah as a nation. Jesus fortold that Christians would do the same, as a whole.
I'm not certian you read what I wrote.
Oh, you forgot to answer my queston.
Quote Is 1:18, I may have asked this before, but are you with any organized Christian group? Or are you all alone? If not, which group? Hello David,
If you'll take the time to read my original post on this subject you'll see that I asked you to name an ante-nicene religious group whose theology aligns with that of the Witnesses. You have not done that. I'm looking for doctrinal commonality David.Can you name one?
Quote f you'll take the time to read my original post on this subject you'll see that I asked you to name an ante-nicene religious group whose theology aligns with that of the Witnesses. Perhaps you've heard of the apostasy. It began before the apostles had even died off. It was fortold by Peter, Paul, Jesus…..
I could provide the scriptures if you like.
If I found a group that aligns with the witnesses that lived AFTER this gangrene like apostasy of twisted thinking and false teachers, weeds entered the arena, what would that prove? Nothing.
Why would I want to prove nothing?Quote I'm looking for doctrinal commonality David. Can you name one?
I have an idea, Is 1:18. Why don't you tell me which of those fragmented groups with various teachings who were offshoots of true Christianity was actually teaching the truth in it's entirety?
Because if there is such a group, obviously you would want to be aligned with them yourself.
Because you are not, I imagine you can't charge me with anything for the same.
I align myself with the earliest Christians. I did answer you, and that is the answer I gave. Perhaps you missed it.But, if you want a list of things we hold in common with earlier Christians,
We reject killing our brothers or anyone else in war:
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)
Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254)Actually, I guess I should point out the error in your thinking, better.
It doesn't matter what one ante-nicene group believed for a moment. What is interesting or what matters is what anti-nicene Christians believed that stretches all the way back to the earliest Christians.
An ante-nicene group (who are part of the “weeds” fortold) could believe that Satan isn't a person. But who cares? It would only matter if this belief could be traced all the way back to the earliest Christians!Get it?
So I could quote from 50 references that say that no Christian UP UNTIL near the end of the second century became soldiers or stayed soldiers upon becoming so.
THAT actually means something. What wouldn't mean anything is if a group of ante-nicene Christians believed this starting in, oh, 150 or 200 C.E.
It wouldn't matter at all, in the least, if they believed this and the early Christians didn't, BECAUSE OF THE FORTOLD APOSTASY.If you're looking for “doctrinal commonality” check with the earliest Christians.
David
Quote We believe Jesus PRESENCE began in 1914, NOT his coming. David. Are you saying that Christ was not present before 1914?
Christ said in
Mathew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.I prefer the clear Word of Scripture regarding Christ's second coming.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Come out of her
I agree that JWs need to be exposed for the culture that they are, but I just wonder about some of those who like to point the finger at them too.
I think that the errors there are no worse than what you find with those who believe that salvation is exclusive to Trinitarians.
It seems to me that often we see one cell in the prison block saying that the other one is bad and vice versa.
But wouldn't it be better to just break out of the prison?
After all the walls are nothing but man made traditions and doctrine.
But the truth will set you free. This has always been true and you can trust this saying.
Quote (david @ June 08 2007,21:28) Quote f you'll take the time to read my original post on this subject you'll see that I asked you to name an ante-nicene religious group whose theology aligns with that of the Witnesses. Perhaps you've heard of the apostasy. It began before the apostles had even died off. It was fortold by Peter, Paul, Jesus…..
I could provide the scriptures if you like.
If I found a group that aligns with the witnesses that lived AFTER this gangrene like apostasy of twisted thinking and false teachers, weeds entered the arena, what would that prove? Nothing.
Why would I want to prove nothing?
Oh, I see, the great apostasy set in within a generation or two of the biblical era, that's convenient. I still maintain that the Watchtower have no roots in early christianity, their doctrines are quite unique to those of the early church Fathers and the various ante-nicene religious groups. For instance historical records show us that none believed Yeshua was an incarnation of the archangel Michael.If your churches beliefs bear no resemblence to those held by the early christians then you should be looking skeptically at the organisation.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 09 2007,11:01) For instance historical records show us that none believed Yeshua was an incarnation of the archangel Michael.
I have also found this to be true. As I have studied their doctrine (and loving to read church history from various writers/religions), I have not been able to locate this belief of Michael the archangel among the early believers either.Quote Oh, I see, the great apostasy set in within a generation or two of the biblical era, that's convenient. I still maintain that the Watchtower have no roots in early christianity, their doctrines are quite unique to those of the early church Fathers and the various ante-nicene religious groups. –Is 1:18.
Paul, you forgot to mention which of the 100's of anti-nicene groups YOU associate with? Which of these groups are you aligned with, or resemble precisely what you believe? Which group today (that you are with) matches which group back then?
Because you refuse to answer this, it seems wrong for you to keep asking me.
I already pointed out the error in your question. If you don't think that the apostasy began “within a generation or two of the biblical era” much less was “already at work” in the time of the apostles AS THE BIBLE SAYS, then I think we should discuss those scriptures. I'll create a timeline of sorts, for you, based on all the scriptures that speak of these things.You say: “have no roots in early christianity, their doctrines are quite unique to those of the early church Fathers.”
If you mean the “church fathers” that came 100-300 years after the apostles died off, then yes, we bear no resemblance or don't align ourselves with any of that apostasized Christianity.
We are remarkably similar to the earliest Christians however.I'm going to quote this encyclopedia again, just because I know it irritates you.
(I'm from Canada, so I may be biased towards our encyclopedias.)
The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph: The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. Their services are kept simple. They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity. All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.”
(Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6)I'll get working on those scriptures.
Quote
Oh, I see, the great apostasy set in within a generation or two of the biblical era, that's convenient.
I still can't believe you or anyone would make such a statement based on what the Bible says.
When do you think the apostasy began. Or has it yet?Quote (david @ June 09 2007,14:01) Paul, you forgot to mention which of the 100's of anti-nicene groups YOU associate with? Which of these groups are you aligned with, or resemble precisely what you believe? Which group today (that you are with) matches which group back then?
Because you refuse to answer this, it seems wrong for you to keep asking me.
As I understand it, the trinitarians were well represented at the nicene council David.Here's some reading that might interest you, it might aid in dispelling some misconceptions you have on this topic:
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin13.htm
Quote I already pointed out the error in your question. If you don't think that the apostasy began “within a generation or two of the biblical era” much less was “already at work” in the time of the apostles AS THE BIBLE SAYS, then I think we should discuss those scriptures. I'll create a timeline of sorts, for you, based on all the scriptures that speak of these things.
I believe the great apostasy has an end times application. There are many prophetic references to the great falling away in the last days. To the best of my limited eschatological knowledge this period has not commenced yet. We are still in the times of the gentiles (Romans 11.25).Quote You say: “have no roots in early christianity, their doctrines are quite unique to those of the early church Fathers.”
If you mean the “church fathers” that came 100-300 years after the apostles died off, then yes, we bear no resemblance or don't align ourselves with any of that apostasized Christianity.
We are remarkably similar to the earliest Christians however.I'm going to quote this encyclopedia again, just because I know it irritates you.
(I'm from Canada, so I may be biased towards our encyclopedias.)
The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph: The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. Their services are kept simple. They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity. All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.”
(Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6)
It seems that yet again the point has escaped you David. The encyclopedia speaks of general “practices” of the WT, not specific theological doctrines. Give me a quote that shows the modern day Witnesses christology and pneumatology conformed to that of one of the early church Fathers, or an ante-nicene religious group.Blessings
Quote As I understand it, the trinitarians were well represented at the nicene council David.
So, the group you would associate yourself with is 'trinitarian.'
I don't personally care too much who was present at a council that was held together and run by a politician wanting to unite his empire, hundreds of years after the apostasy began. But thanks for the info.I'll read your website, but really, I don't even have time to be commenting now, as I am. Remind me later and I'll comment on what it says, if i don't remmber myself.
Quote I believe the great apostasy has an end times application.
Sure, but it without question began before the apostles had even left the scene. I'm working on the scriptures right now, or was a while ago.
Do you really think that there was no apostasy, yet a hundred years or so after Christ, there were 20 varieties of Christianity, different religions with different beliefs? 150 years later, there were 80 maybe. Perhaps one of these groups was still mostly right on most subjects, but the majority had to be wrong. If the majority were right, they woldn't be divided. They would be united in the truth. The fact that most believed the trinity several hundred years later proves nothing.ok, i haven't found nearly all of them, but I'll give you what I have. I still have to find the scriptures about what Jesus said to the 7 congregations and some scriptures abut circumcision, etc, and organize things, but here is what I'll be showing. Please read these scriptures. You'll see a trend.
Actually, I haven't put them in order yet, either. Sorry.
1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.”
(See 1 tim 3:2; 1 Cor 9:5; “Cephas” is an Aramaic name given to Peter; see John 1:42. See also Mark 1:29-31, where reference is made to the mother-in-law of Simon, or Peter.)2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 (c. 65 C.E.)
“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.”2 PETER 2:1-3 (c. 64 C.E.)
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . .Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words.”
(See 2 Tim. 2:16-18–“their word will spread like gangrene.” Romans 16:17–“keep your eye on those who cause divisions.” 1 Cor 1:10–“there should not be divisions among you.”)
(Peter’s words proved ture. Sects, or divisions were already evident as historian Will Durant points out:
“Celsus [second-century opponent of Christianity] himself had sarcastically observed that Christians were ‘split up into ever so many factions, each individual desiring to have his own party.’ About 187 [C.E.] Irenaeus listed twenty varieties of Christianity; about 384 [C.E.] Epiphanius counted eighty.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.)MATTHEW 7:15-16
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?” (Read Jesus words at Matthew 13:24-30,36-39)ACTS 20:27-30 (c. 56.C.E.)
“for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
(Notice that he was speaking to the “overseers” (Bishops), the ones who had been appointed “to shepharerd the congregation of God.” It was from among these ones themselves that men would rise and speak twisted things “to draw away the disciples after themselves.”) (See Acts 15:24; 2 Pet. 2:1)JUDE 3-4,10 (c. 65. C.E.)
“Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to exhort you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. My reason is that certain men have slipped in . . .ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. . . .Yet these [men] are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know.”ACTS 15:24 (c. 50 C.E.)
“we have heard that some from among us have caused you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we [the governing body] did not give them any instructions,”GALATIANS 1:6-7 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“I marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news. But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ.”GALATIANS 2:3-4 (c. 50-52 C.E.)
“Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us—” (See 2 Cor 11:26)2 CORINTHIANS 11:3 (c. 55 C.E.)
“I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ.”ROMANS 16:17-18 (c. 56 C.E.)
“Now I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (See 1 Cor 1:10)COLOSSIANS 2:8 (c. 60-61 C.E.)
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;”1 TIMOTHY 6:20-21 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.”TITUS 1:5,10,11,13-16 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“For this reason I left
you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders. . . .For there are many unruly men, profitless talkers, and deceivers of the mind, especially those men who adhere to the circumcision. It is necessary to shut the mouths of these, as these very men keep on subverting entire households by teaching things they ought not for the sake of dishonest gain. . . . For this very cause keep on reproving them with severity, that they may be healthy in the faith, paying no attention to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth. . . . They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.” (See Mat. 15:19)2 PETER 3:13,15-17 (c. 64 C.E.)
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. . . . Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.” (See 2 Tim 4:3,4–“they will accumulate teachers for themsleves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth.”)1 TIMOTHY 1:3-7 (c. 61-64 C.E.)
“Just as I encouraged you to stay in Eph́e·sus when I was about to go my way into Mac·e·dóni·a, so I do now, that you might command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, nor to pay attention to false stories. . .. Really the objective of this mandate is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.”2 TIMOTHY 2:16-18 (c. 65 C.E.)
“But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naéus and Phi·létus are of that number. These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (See 1 Tim. 1:19,20; 2 Tim 3:13)1 JOHN 2:18-19 (c. 98. C.E.)
“Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.”1 JOHN 4:3 (c. 98 C.E.)
“but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.”2 JOHN 7 (c. 98 C.E.)
“For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
(Another false teaching, from the foretold false teachers. By this time “many deceivers” were already in “the world.”)2 THESSALONIANS 2:3,7,9 (c.51 C.E.)
“Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. . . .True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. . . .But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents”
(This man of lawlessness was a mystery at the time, but it would only be a mystery until “he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way,” that is, the apostles. At that time, it would no longer be a mystery. It would break forth in full bloom and spread like “gangrene” as another verse puts it.)
(See Mat 13:24-37–“enemy came and oversowed weeds…the weeds are the sons of th ewicked one, and the enemy that sowned them is the Devil.” See 1 Tim 4:1–“paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons.”
(Verse 8 tells us that the lawless one will be done away with and brought to nothing by the manifestation of Jesus’ presence. So the man of lawlessness would exist right up until Christ’s presense.)MATTHEW 13:24-30
“Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’””
MATTHEW 13:36-37
“Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man;”
(See Mat 8:20; 9:6; 10:23 where Jesus identifies himself as the “son of man.”)I really wished I had underlined certain words in all these scriptures. I will in the actual final version.
Quote There are many prophetic references to the great falling away in the last days.
A couple, and many many more to the great apostasy already being at work, already happening, already beginning to show signs of it's presense even before the apostles, the last restraint, died off.Quote Give me a quote that shows the modern day Witnesses christology and pneumatology conformed to that of one of the early church Fathers, or an ante-nicene religious group.
I don't think you get it. No one I know, except you cares at all what the deviated form of apostate Christians believed in the 4th century. The fact that there were more than a hundred versions of Christianity by that time is proof that the apostasy was well at work. It was just as fortold.I'll try to organize those scriptures and add to them.
david
So David, I assert that, in terms of theology, the WT have no early christian predecessors. If you disagree with my assertion then I require you to name an ante-nicene group whose doctrines mirror those of the modern day JWs.
It's really as simple as that David. Just name one.
david,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29. To recap:
Rev. 7:4: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.” (But in the verses that follow, mention is made of “the tribe of Levi” and “the tribe of Joseph.” These were not included in lists of the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Interestingly, while it is said that people would be “sealed out of every tribe,” the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. [Compare Numbers 1:4-16.] Reference must here be made to the spiritual Israel of God, to those whom Revelation 14:1-3 shows will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom.)
Heb. 12:22: “You have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels.” (Thus it is not to earthly Jerusalem but to “heavenly Jerusalem” that true Christians look for fulfillment of the promises of God.)
So, and I assume you will include yourself in this number….
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.….you are a Jewish virgin male??
Don't bother to reply, I don't buy it.
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