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Quote Revelation 1:10 John say he was in the spirit on the Lord's day. That day is the great and terrible day of the LORD. Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Hey Kenrch.
Things always get confusing when you quote from the Hebrew scriptures where you use a Bible that has incorporated 'LORD' where God's name originally was. Yes, Jehovah has a day that is terrible.But in Rev 1:10, I believe the context points to Jesus Christ as the Lord whose “day” it is. Immediately after coming to be “in the Lord’s day,” John heard, not the voice of Almighty God, but that of the resurrected Son of God. (Re 1:10-18) Also, the ‘day of the Lord’ mentioned at 1 Corinthians 1:8; 5:5; and 2 Corinthians 1:14 is that of Jesus Christ.
Quote Why did Jesus say every eye would see Him. Why did He say
it would be as lightning?“Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.” (Revelation 1:7)
No doubt John was here reminded of Jesus’ earlier prophecy concerning the conclusion of the system of things. Jesus there stated:
“Then the SIGNof the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:3, 30)
Both scriptures say that when they “see” Jesus, they would beat themselves with grief or lamentation. This seems odd, if they just see Jesus and then get sad with grief. YOu would think they would be happy, the sort that will be saying “lord, lord”…
Yet, when they “see” him, they are striken with grief. Why? Because Jesus ‘comes’ by turning his attention to the executing of Jehovah’s judgments on the nations. This will result in momentous changes on earth, and since “all the tribes of the earth” have ignored the reality of Jesus’ kingship, they will indeed experience “the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty.”—Revelation 19:11-21; Psalm 2:2, 3, 8, 9
During Jesus’ last evening with his disciples, he told them: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” (John 14:19)
Was he lying? No.
How is it, then, that “every eye will see him”?
Evidently, John meant “see” in the sense of “discern,” just as we can see, or discern, God’s invisible qualities by means of his creations. (Romans 1:20)Jesus “is coming with the clouds” in that he will be just as invisible to the naked eye as the sun is when it is behind clouds. Even when the sun is hidden by clouds during daytime, we know it is there because of the daylight that surrounds us. Similarly, though the Lord Jesus is invisible, he will be revealed like ‘a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not obey the good news about him.’ These too will be compelled to “see him.”—2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; 2:8.
Jesus will be ‘seen’ also by “those who pierced him.” Who might these be? When Jesus was executed in 33 C.E., the Roman soldiers pierced him literally. The guilt of that murder was shared by the Jews, for Peter told some of these at Pentecost: “God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled.” (Acts 2:5-11, 36; compare Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37.) Those Romans and Jews have now been dead for close to 2,000 years. So those who ‘pierce him’ today must represent nations and peoples that display the same hateful attitude that was shown when Jesus was impaled. Jesus is no longer here on earth.
Recapping:
What is indicated by “clouds”?
Invisibility. When an airplane is in a thick cloud or above the clouds, people on the ground usually cannot see it, although they may hear the roar of the engines. Jehovah told Moses: “I am coming to you in a dark cloud.” Moses did not see God, but that cloud indicated Jehovah’s invisible presence. (Ex. 19:9; see also Leviticus 16:2; Numbers 11:25.) If Christ were to appear visibly in the heavens, it is obvious that not “every eye” would see him. If he appeared over Australia, for example, he would not be visible in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, would he?In what sense will ‘every eye see him’?
They will discern from events on earth that he is invisibly present. Also referring to sight that is not physical, John 9:41 reports: “Jesus said to [the Pharisees]: ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, “We see.” Your sin remains.’” (Compare Romans 1:20.) Following Christ’s return, some persons show faith; they recognize the sign of his presence. Others reject the evidence, but when Christ goes into action as God’s executioner of the wicked, even they will discern from the manifestation of his power that the destruction is not from men but from heaven. They will know what is happening because they were warned in advance. Because of what is overtaking them, they will “beat themselves in grief.”Who are “those who pierced him”?
? Literally, Roman soldiers did this at the time of Jesus’ execution. But they have long been dead. So this must refer to people who similarly mistreat, or ‘pierce,’ Christ’s true followers during “the last days.”—Matt. 25:40, 45.Kenrch, thankyou for quoting this scripture:
Quote Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Or, as mathhew wrote:
(Matthew 24:27) “For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
The presence of the Son of man will be felt over the whole earth.Quote Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I've discussed all this. Just go back a page or two.
But what this does clearly show is that Jesus won't be seen in the from you believe he will. No one will be able to say: Here is Jesus! He's over here. No, he's over there. This is ridiculous. His presence will be like the the lightning shining from eastern parts to wester parts.
It is you who believes you'll be able to point to Jesus and say: There he is.
I do not believe this and never have. This scripture you quoted seems to indicate you are wrong.Quote L
uk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
So you believe Jesus is “flesh and bone” today? Is that what you're saying?
I happen to believe he is a spirit, as the Bible indicates.
Let's look at this scripture:
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3)
If the disciples had actually seen Jesus in the body that he now has in heaven, Paul would not later have referred to the glorified Christ as being “the exact representation of [God’s] very being,” because God is a Spirit and has never been in the flesh.—Heb. 1:3; compare 1 Timothy 6:16.When reading the reports of Jesus’ postresurrection appearances, we are helped to understand them properly if we keep in mind 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:45
T8, if you go back and look at the last post you wrote on here, you quoted me, who said: “Again, you are arguing against something we do not believe.”
You quoted me saying this, then you went on to again argue against something we do not believe.
Let me say this again.
We believe Jesus PRESENCE began in 1914, NOT his coming.
David if I'm not mistaken Jesus came back in 1914 and started World War 1. I think that's what the International Bible students teach. They do have the same teacher as the JWs~Charles Tazz Russell~. I believe they teach that Jesus is controling everything from the atmosphere. All those signs are being brought about by Jesus. Wars, Hurricans, floods ETC.
Just wondering if this is correct
Jesus has been here in Spirit for 2000 years. His sheep hear His voice. Was Jesus present with the apostles? What do the JWs call this presence when God's children actuall hear Jesus' voice spiritually of course. Again just wondering
Quote Jesus “is coming with the clouds” in that he will be just as invisible to the naked eye as the sun is when it is behind clouds. Even when the sun is hidden by clouds during daytime, we know it is there because of the daylight that surrounds us. Similarly, though the Lord Jesus is invisible, he will be revealed like ‘a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not obey the good news about him.’ These too will be compelled to “see him.”—2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; 2:8. Now this is the day of the LORD! The second coming.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.The apostles saw Jesus “go into heaven” Don't you think His brethern and enemys will see Him come from heaven?
Why would Jesus have to hide behind a cloud? After His resurrection Jesus walked though walls, appeared and DIS appeared. Jesus is Spirit, a Jehovah's Witness said. True so why would He have to hide behind a cloud? Jesus is Spirit and invisible so why would HE have to hide behind a cloud while He “did His work”?
I know that you are taught that “we” who are not JWs are blind we don't “SEE”. But what if you are deceived. Truly it is hard to come out of the JWs at least that's what the Witnesses say.
God Bless You! And help us ALL to be one! Amen!
IHN&L
Ken
Hi,
Building on sand with one verse enlarged by logic and inference is the way of the JWs and explains the bizarre conclusions they come to. And because no one dares question the teaching authority of the leaders all among them must follow such follies.Kench's words:
Quote David if I'm not mistaken Jesus came back in 1914 and started World War 1. I think that's what the International Bible students teach. They do have the same teacher as the JWs~Charles Tazz Russell~. I believe they teach that Jesus is controling everything from the atmosphere. All those signs are being brought about by Jesus. Wars, Hurricans, floods ETC.
Just wondering if this is correctWe don't in any way believe Jesus started WWI. Nor do we think Jesus is causing floods, hurricanes, etc. So, I guess you are not “correct,” no.
Jesus said Satan was the “ruler of this world” and so I would tend to blame him for evils of this world. As well, it would be “woe for the earth” when he was hurled down to the earth and removed from heaven, and woe is what we’ve seen in the past century.I believe we are living in the last days of this wicked world and that the last century was quite a different one, in the ways that Jesus and others foretold. Anyone disagree? I believe that Jesus presence (and the signs Jesus gave in connection with his presence) is obvious, and that if anyone wants to ridicule me on this, I welcome it. But you would be wrong to do so, and would only be another sign that we are in fact living in the last days.
2 PETER 3:3-4
“For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.””The things that began to happen near the beginning of last century were the “beginning of pangs of distress” and they were on whole new levels. Yes, we’ve always had wars for example. We haven’t always had WORLD wars.
Kenrch, do you think the last 2000 years have been the “last days”?
If you do, I ask you this: why did his disciples ask for a sign of his presence? (Mat 24:3)Quote I know that you are taught that “we” who are not JWs are blind we don't “SEE”.
WHAT ELSE COULD I POSSIBLY BELIEVE?2 PETER 3:3-4
“. . . in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.””Your very great inability to see that we are living in the time of Jesus presence, and your “ridicule” of me, is exactly as fortold. What else could I possibly believe? It is just as fortold.
YOu say we have been in Jesus presence (parousia) ever since pentecost, yet Jesus own apostles asked for a sign of his presence.
And in the last days, THE TIME WE ARE UNQUESTIONABLY LIVING IN TODAY, WITHOUT QUESTION, WITHOUT DOUBT, there would be ridiculers, ridiculing those that believed we were living in Jesus presence.So, yes, I do believe you can't see. I'm sorry, but I have every conceivable reason to believe this.
Let's look at that scripture one more time, just in case you didn't see it or glossed over it the first couple times:
2 PETER 3:3-4
“For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.””I know you'll say that the word should be “coming,” not “presence,” as many Bible's translate it that way. But it definitely shouldn't always be translated that way, and I don't believe it should be translated that way in this scripture.
The last days of this world:
2 TIMOTHY 3:1-5
“But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”The apostles asked for a “sign” of the last days, or as they put it, the conclusion of this world.
No one would need a sign if all these things happened instantly. Of course, Jesus said many things that would happen during these last days, which would stretch over a period of time. (Mat 24) He said this would happen, then this. He said this thing was a beginning of pangs of distress, then this would happen.MATTHEW 24:3
“While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?””1864 “the SIGN of THY presence” The Emphatic Diaglott
(J21), by Benjamin Wilson,
New York and London.1897 “the sign of thy presence” The Emphasised Bible,
by J. B. Rotherham,
Cincinnati.1903 “the signal of Your presence” The Holy Bible in Modern
English, by F. Fenton, London.1950 “the sign of your presence” New World Translation of
the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.The Greek noun pa·rou·si′a literally means a “being alongside,” the expression being drawn from the preposition pa·ra′ (alongside) and ou·si′a (a “being”). The word pa·rou·si′a occurs 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, namely, in Mt 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1Co 15:23; 16:17; 2Co 7:6, 7; 10:10; Php 1:26; 2:12; 1Th 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2Th 2:1, 8, 9; Jas 5:7, 8; 2Pe 1:16; 3:4, 12; 1Jo 2:28. In these 24 places the New World Translation renders pa·rou·si′a as “presence.”
The related verb pa′rei·mi literally means “be alongside.” It occurs 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, namely, in Mt 26:50; Lu 13:1; Joh 7:6; 11:28; Ac 10:21, 33; 12:20 (ftn); 17:6; 24:19; 1Co 5:3, 3; 2Co 10:2, 11; 11:9; 13:2, 10; Ga 4:18, 20; Col 1:6; Heb 12:11; 13:5; 2Pe 1:9, 12; Re 17:8. In these places the New World Translation renders pa′rei·mi as “(be) present” or “present himself.”
From the contrast that is made between the presence and the absence of Paul both in 2Co 10:10, 11 and in Php 2:12, the meaning of pa·rou·si′a is plain. Also, from the comparison of the pa·rou·si′a of the Son of man with the “days of Noah,” in Mt 24:37-39, it is evident that this word means “presence.”
Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon (LS), p. 1343, gives as the first definition of pa·rou·si′a the English word presence. Likewise TDNT, Vol. V, p. 859, states under the subheading “The General Meaning”: “παρουσία [pa·rou·si′a] denotes esp[ecially] active presence.”
The word pa·rou·si′a, “presence,” is different fro
m the Greek word e′leu·sis, “coming,” which occurs once in the Greek text, in Ac 7:52, as e·leu′se·os (Lat., ad·ven′tu). The words pa·rou·si′a and e′leu·sis are not used interchangeably. TDNT, Vol. V, p. 865, noted that “the terms [pa′rei·mi and pa·rou·si′a] are never used for the coming of Christ in the flesh, and παρουσία never has the sense of return. The idea of more than one parousia is first found only in the later Church [not before Justine, second century C.E.] . . . A basic prerequisite for understanding the world of thought of primitive Christianity is that we should fully free ourselves from this notion [of more than one parousia].”Concerning the meaning of this word, Israel P. Warren, D.D., wrote in his work The Parousia, Portland, Maine (1879), pp. 12-15: “We often speak of the ‘second advent,’ the ‘second coming,’ etc., but the Scriptures never speak of a ‘second Parousia.’ Whatever was to be its nature, it was something peculiar, having never occurred before, and being never to occur again. It was to be a presence differing from and superior to all other manifestations of himself to men, so that its designation should properly stand by itself, without any qualifying epithet other than the article,—THE PRESENCE.
“From this view of the word it is evident, I think, that neither the English word ‘coming’ nor the Latin ‘advent’ is the best representative of the original. They do not conform to its etymology; they do not correspond to the idea of the verb from which it is derived; nor could they appropriately be substituted for the more exact word, ‘presence,’ in the cases where the translators used the latter. Nor is the radical [root] idea of them the same. ‘Coming’ and ‘advent’ give most prominently the conception of an approach to us, motion toward us; ‘parousia’ that of being with us, without reference to how it began. The force of the former ends with the arrival; that of the latter begins with it. Those are words of motion; this of rest. The space of time covered by the action of the former is limited, it may be momentary; that of the latter unlimited . . . .
“Had our translators done with this technical word ‘parousia’ as they did with ‘baptisma,’—transferring it unchanged,—or if translated using its exact etymological equivalent, presence, and had it been well understood, as it then would have been, that there is no such thing as a ‘second Presence,’ I believe that the entire doctrine would have been different from what it now is. The phrases, ‘second advent,’ and ‘second coming,’ would never have been heard of. The church would have been taught to speak of THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, as that from which its hopes were to be realized, whether in the near future or at the remotest period,—that under which the world was to be made new, a resurrection both spiritual and corporeal should be attained, and justice and everlasting awards administered.”
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·si′a “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.” In Mt 24:3, as well as in other texts such as 1Th 3:13 and 2Th 2:1, the word pa·rou·si′a refers to the royal presence of Jesus Christ since his enthronement as King in the last days of this system of things.
Again, the presence of the Lord is a period of time. It is not the coming of the Lord that Jesus gave them and us a sign of:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
This is a part of the sign. It's something that takes place over time.Quote Truly it is hard to come out of the JWs at least that's what the Witnesses say. It's not hard at all to “come out of JW's” as you say. But it is impossible to leave JW's and keep your JW friends, and I think that's what you mean.
Example:
You're a Christian. You have lots of “Christian” friends. You decide you no longer want to be a Christian and follow Christ. It's not your thing. You want to leave it all behind. This would tend to make you anti-Christian.Would your other “friends” who actually do love Christ and want to follow him, would they stay “close” to you? Would Christ like it if those Christians were friends with someone who is anti-christ? “He who is walking with wise persons will become wise” the proverb says. If you are walking with someone foolish, someone who hates Christ or Jehovah, you would be stupid, the Bible says.
JW's are perhaps the only group, who rightly stay at a distance from those who have purposely chosen to leave the Bible behind.
So, yes, it's hard for a JW to leave Jehovah and keep his lifestyle and his friends. But, anyone can walk away at any time.
Quote Building on sand with one verse enlarged by logic and inference is the way of the JWs and explains the bizarre conclusions they come to. And because no one dares question the teaching authority of the leaders all among them must follow such follies.
Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle….
You base your idea (a Satanic one) on God torturing people for endless time on a parable that you make fit your idea while sacrificing the hundreds of other plain english scriptures that say the opposite.The Greek word from which “presence” is translated is pa·rou·si′a, formed from pa·ra′ (alongside) and ou·si′a (being; derived from ei·mi′, meaning “be”). Hence, pa·rou·si′a means, literally, “being alongside,” that is, a “presence.”
Many translations vary their renderings of this word. While translating pa·rou·si′a as “presence” in some texts, they more frequently render it as “coming.”
Though allowing for both “arrival” and “presence” as translations of pa·rou·si′a, lexicographers generally acknowledge that the presence of the person is the principal idea conveyed by the word.
That a pa·rou·si′a (presence) can be invisible is indicated by Paul’s use of the related verb form (pa′rei·mi) when speaking of being “present in spirit” though absent in body. (1Co 5:3) So, too, Jewish historian Josephus, writing in Greek, refers to God’s pa·rou·si′a at Mount Sinai, his invisible presence being evidenced by the thunders and lightning.—Jewish Antiquities, III, 80 (v, 2).
The Scripturalness of an invisible presence is also borne out by Jehovah God’s saying to Moses regarding the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of the tabernacle: “And I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover.” (Ex 25:22)
God’s presence was not in a visible form.When King Solomon inaugurated the temple at Jerusalem, the cloud of “the glory of Jehovah” filled the house. Solomon spoke of Jehovah as ‘residing in the temple.’ Nevertheless, Solomon himself stated: : “But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!”
These accounts illustrate God’s power to ‘be present’ on earth in a spiritual (hence, invisible) way while He yet remains in heaven. His presence might in some cases be by means of an angelic representative who acted and spoke for God, even saying, “I am the God of your father,” as did the angel in the flaming bush who spoke to Moses. (Ex 3:2-8; compare Ex 23:20; 32:34.) So, too, Jehovah told Moses that he was “coming” to him at Mount Sinai and would “come down” there (Ex 19:9, 11, 18, 20), yet the apostolic writings show that it was actually by his angels that God was there present and delivered to Moses his covenant.—Ga 3:19; Heb 2:2
Since Jehovah’s resurrected Son Jesus Christ was granted ‘all authority in heaven and on the earth,’ and is “the exact representation of [God’s] very being,” it follows that he should also be able to be invisibly present in a similar manner. (Mt 28:18; Heb 1:2, 3)
Since Jesus’ kingship includes the whole earth, his presence is a global one (compare Mt 24:23-27, 30) and Paul’s inspired words at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, as well as references to Christ’s reign in Revelation (5:8-10; 7:17; 19:11-16; 20:1-6; 21:1-4, 9, 10, 22-27), imply that Christ’s presence is the time for him to direct his full attention to the whole earth and its population, bringing the full force of his kingly power to bear so as to accomplish his Father’s will for the earth and its inhabitants.—Compare Mt 6:9, 10.
Some, on the basis of texts speaking of Jesus’ being seen “coming in clouds with great power and glory” (Mr 13:26; Re 1:7), conclude that his presence must be a visible one.
The use of clouds in connection with other divine manifestations suggests invisibility rather than visibility. don't they?
Jehovah, whom no man can see and yet live, symbolizes his presence by a cloud. At Mount Sinai, at the time of giving the Law to Israel, a dark cloud covered the mountain; out of the cloud came lightnings and thunder, the blare of a trumpet, and a loud voice. (Ex 19:16-19; 24:15; Heb 12:18, 19) Jehovah told Moses that he appeared in this manner in order that he might speak to Moses and that, on hearing it, the people might put faith in Moses as God’s representative.—Ex 19:9.
Jehovah sent an angel in a cloud as “his own personal messenger” to lead Israel out of Egypt and through the wilderness. (Isa 63:9) By means of the angel, Jehovah representatively looked out of the cloud to throw the camp of the Egyptians into confusion. (Ex 13:21, 22; 14:19, 24, 25) Jehovah also used the cloud to baptize them as a nation into Moses, the waters being at the sides of them and the cloud above and behind. Thus they were “baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea.”—1Co 10:2; see also Nu 14:14.
When the tabernacle was set up in the wilderness, the cloud resided over it and “Jehovah’s glory filled the tabernacle,” so that Moses was unable to enter. (Ex 40:34, 35; compare 1Ki 8:10-12; Re 15:8.) After this the cloud stood over the Most Holy, in which was the ark of the covenant, and the cloud became a pillar of fire at night. Doubtless this cloud was visible from any part of the camp, marking the camp’s center. When it rose, Israel prepared to break camp. When it moved, they followed its direction to the next camping place, although the exact site to set up the camp may have been selected with the help of Hobab, who had a good knowledge of the land, including watering places and other features necessary to a camp of such tremendous proportions.—Ex 40:34-38; Nu 10:29-32.
Inside the Most Holy, over the ark of the covenant, was a cloud that was very brilliant, the only light to illuminate that compartment. (Le 16:2) In post-Biblical Hebrew, it was called the Shechinah. When the high priest went into the Most Holy on Atonement Day with the blood of animals, he was symbolically standing in the presence of Jehovah. At other times, when he did not go into the Most Holy but stood before the curtain to present a matter of importance to Jehovah for his answer, he was considered as standing before Jehovah.—Nu 27:21.
In one instance Jehovah’s own voice was heard out of a bright cloud, expressing approval of his only-begotten Son. This was the brilliant cloud overshadowing Jesus and his three apostles Peter, James, and John on the mount of the transfiguration.—Mt 17:5.
When Jesus ascended into heaven, according to the record, “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” (Ac 1:9) The disciples did not see Jesus riding away on a cloud, but rather, the cloud obscured their vision of him. This helps us to understand Jesus’ words concerning his presence: “They will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory,” and Revelation’s statement: “He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” (Lu 21:27; Mt 24:30; Re 1:7) In past cases clouds represented invisible presence; but observers could “see” the meaning with their mental “eyes.” In this case the physical occurrences that are visible would cause the one looking to “see” or realize that Christ is invisibly present.—See also Mt 24; Mr 13; Re 14:14.
When Jesus came to earth, with all the identifications of the Messiah, the Jews selfishly refused to acknowledge him because they demanded as a proof of his Messiahship that he literally fulfill the vision at Daniel 7:13, 14, where the Son of man is shown coming with the clouds of the heavens before the Ancient of Days, Jehovah God, to receive his kingdom. They confused his presence in Kingdom power with his first coming. He told them that no such sign would be given them.—Lu 11:29.
So, too, ‘seeing’ can refer to figurative sight, perception with the mind and heart.
ISAIAH 44:18
“They have not come to know, nor do they understand, because their eyes have been besmeared so as not to see, their heart so as to have no insight.”
JEREMIAH 5:21
““Hear, now, this, O unwise people that is without heart: They have eyes, but they cannot see; they have ears, but they cannot he
ar.”
EZEKIEL 12:2-3
““Son of man, in the midst of a rebellious house is where you are dwelling, that have eyes to see but they actually do not see, that have ears to hear but they actually do not hear, for they are a rebellious house. As for you, O son of man, make up for yourself luggage for exile and go into exile in the daytime before their eyes, and you must go into exile from your place to another place before their eyes. Perhaps they will see, though they are a rebellious house.”
MATTHEW 13:13-16
“This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, YOU will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, YOU will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’ “However, happy are YOUR eyes because they behold, and YOUR ears because they hear.”
EPHESIANS 1:17-18
“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him; the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened, that YOU may know what is the hope to which he called YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones,”To deny this would be to deny that the opposite of sight, namely, blindness, could be used in a figurative or spiritual, rather than literal, sense.
Yet, Kenrch, you know it can be and you yourself mentioned blindness in this sence in your last post to me.Yet Jesus clearly used both sight and blindness in such a figurative or spiritual sense. (Joh 9:39-41; Re 3:14-18; compare also 2Co 4:4; 2Pe 1:9.) Job, being spoken to by Jehovah “out of the windstorm” (likely accompanied by clouds), afterward said: “In heresay I have heard about you, but now my own eye does see you.” (Job 38:1; 42:5)
This, too, must have been by perception of mind and heart rather than the literal eye, in view of the clear Scriptural teaching that “no man has seen God at any time.”—Joh 1:18; 5:37; 6:46; 1Jo 4:12.Evidence weighing against Jesus’ presence as being a visible one (in the sense of Jesus’ appearing in a bodily form that could be seen by human eyes) is found in Jesus’ own statement that by his death he would sacrifice his flesh in behalf of the life of the world (Joh 6:51) and in the apostle Paul’s declaration that the resurrected Jesus “dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see.” (1Ti 6:14-16) Jesus therefore could tell his disciples that “a little longer and the world will behold me no more.” True, his disciples would behold him, not only because he would appear to them after his resurrection but also because in due time they would be resurrected to join him in the heavens and ‘behold the glory that his Father had given him.’ (Joh 14:19; 17:24) But the world in general would not behold him because after his resurrection to life as a spirit creature (1Pe 3:18), Jesus restricted his appearances to his disciples. His ascension to heaven was also seen only by them, not by the world, and the angels present assured the disciples that Jesus’ return would be in “the same manner” (Gr., tro′pos, not mor·phe′, “form”), hence without public display, discerned only by his faithful followers.—Ac 1:1-11.
Clearly, men will be aware of what is taking place at “the revelation” (Gr., a·po·ka′ly·psis) of Jesus Christ “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2Th 1:7-9)
[/U]This, however, still allows for an invisible presence that goes undiscerned by all but the faithful prior to that revelation.
We may recall that Jesus, when paralleling his presence with “the days of Noah,” states that in Noah’s time the people “took no note” until watery destruction came upon them, and “so the presence of the Son of man will be.”—Mt 24:37-39.
It was foretold that, in “the last days,” they would scoff, saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”—2Pe 3:2-4; compare 1:16.
Hi david,
You say to justify your doctrines
“In what sense will ‘every eye see him’?
They will discern from events on earth that he is invisibly present.”
Sorry david but an eye is an eye.David what is the purpose of Jesus' presence behind the clouds?
As I said the IBS who have the same teacher as the JWs said that Jesus is running things from the atmosphere. And that His government is slowly coming to pass.
Couldn't these signs happen with Jesus in heaven? Why would He have to be hidden behind a cloud?
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
What is a sign? A sign in this case is the telling of an invent that is about to happen. You have seen hwy signs, such and such a city so many miles away. You don't see the city BUT you know it's right ahead. Isn't this what Matt 24:3 is saying?
Those signs point to the return of Jesus Physically in the clouds. You asked~ NO~ you said that I believe Jesus is physical.
My point was to show Jesus appeared physically to the apostles. Surely He can if He so desires to manifest Himself physically. I pointed out that Jesus walked through walls so If He is physical He's not like us.Through the Holy Spirit Jesus' presence is here anytime (and anyplace I might add) when two or more are gathered in His name. That's what He said. That's been happening since Pentecost.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
When will this be?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Are the tribulations of Satan over? Have wars stopped?
Have the powers of heaven been shaken?Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
We have the signs that tell us the city is right ahead but there are no numbers of measurement on those signs as to how long it will take to get to the city.
We (because of those signs) know that it's not far according to God who wears NO watch!
Scripture says that Not even Jesus knows when He will be sent. Only the Father knows.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
What generation? The generation of 1914? That's what the IBS teach. Someone born in 1914 would be 93 in 2007.
Man will not live more than 120 years.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Anyway 1914 and 120 brings us to 2034. That's 27 years away! I'm not setting dates but scripture says man will not live past 120. I don't believe anyone makes it that far now a days. Those born in 1914 are 93. That's pretty old. I haven't heard of people living past 105, I think. But then they couldn't have been born in 1914 either.
IMHO I believe Jesus was speaking of the Christian generation that would never pass away till all things be fullfilled. After that everyone will be God's child because God will be all in all.
May the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to all of us.
Ken
Quote (david @ May 30 2007,22:30) T8, if you go back and look at the last post you wrote on here, you quoted me, who said: “Again, you are arguing against something we do not believe.” You quoted me saying this, then you went on to again argue against something we do not believe.
Let me say this again.
We believe Jesus PRESENCE began in 1914, NOT his coming.
Hi David. When Jesus did not appear in 1914, why did the Jehovah's Witnessses change the date several times after that?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.No malice toward you David, but this Watchtower thing you're into is cult stuff.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,08:47) Hi,
Building on sand with one verse enlarged by logic and inference is the way of the JWs and explains the bizarre conclusions they come to.
Actually, what you say is true of all of us here! Isn't that what we all do? “…..one verse enlarged by logic and inference….” We all have so many different views. In fact, I dare say, besides Nick and t8, I don't know if any of us agree on any one thing? Do we? Maybe that God is love? But then I even saw Martian and Tim2 debating that. Oh, well, back to the boardsHi not3,
Keep walking together and we will slowly learn from each other building a unity if we remain open.
Every verse needs to be understood as much as it possible but truth is only established in the mouth of witnesses to that verse.2Cor 13
” 1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. “and as witnesses
Deuteronomy 17
6″(A)On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.
Deut 19
15″(A)A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.
Matthew 18:16
16″But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that (A)BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.Quote Hi David. When Jesus did not appear in 1914, why did the Jehovah's Witnessses change the date several times after that? Are you saying we don't believe Jesus presense began in 1914, Cult Guy?
It is true that we were expecting more all at once. Because of our eagerness, we have hoped for the new system earlier than Jehovah’s timetable has called for it.
But it is also true that the earliest Christians had expectations that were wrong as well.
LUKE 19:11
“While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.”“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6)
This was asked thousands of years ago.We can see from this that Jesus’ closest followers were so anxious for the end to come quickly that they overlooked what he had recently told them about physical evidences that had to develop during his presence prior to that end.
Unfortunately, JW's were guitly of the same thing these early Christians were.
But they were right about 1914 being the end of the gentile times. I would like to discuss this subject much more and actually explain what I believe, but today is not a good day for me.Quote No malice toward you David, but this Watchtower thing you're into is cult stuff.
Jesus Christ was accused of being
a drunkard,
a glutton,
a Sabbath breaker,
a false witness,
a blasphemer of God,
and a messenger of Satan.
He was also accused of being subversive.—Matthew 9:34; 11:19; 12:24; 26:65; John 8:13; 9:16; 19:12.So, for those that blindly believe what they here others (such as Cult Guy) say, I would recommend not doing so.
After Jesus’ death and resurrection, his disciples were likewise the target of serious accusations. One group of first-century Christians were dragged to the city rulers by people crying out:
‘These men have overturned the inhabited earth.’ (Acts 17:6)
On another occasion the apostle Paul and his companion Silas were taken to the authorities and charged with greatly disturbing the city of Philippi.—Acts 16:20.Paul was later accused of being a “pestilent fellow and stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth” and of trying “to profane the temple.” (Acts 24:5, 6)
The principal men of the Jews in Rome accurately described the situation of Jesus’ followers when they acknowledged:
“For truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”—Acts 28:22.Undoubtedly, many today would have considered the Christians a destructive cult.
The accusers were often prominent and respected members of the community, and this seems to have added weight to the allegations. Many believed the accusations against Jesus and his disciples. Yet, as you probably know, every one of these charges was false! The fact that people said these things did not make them true.
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not hold ritualistic meetings, nor is their worship cloaked in secrecy. Non-Witness author Julia Mitchell Corbett notes: “When they meet, usually more than once a week, in Kingdom Halls (their meeting sites are not called churches), most of their time is spent in Bible study and discussion.” Their meeting places are clearly marked with a sign. The meetings are open, and the general public is invited to attend. Unannounced guests are more than welcome.
“A Massachusetts newspaper, the Daily Hampshire Gazette, explains that Jehovah’s Witnesses’ “strict interpretation of the Bible forbids many activities others take for granted . . . , all in an effort to follow the example of first-century Christians and the word of the Bible.” The Encyclopedia of Religion agrees that “all that they believe is based on the Bible. They ‘proof text’ (that is, supply a biblical citation to support) almost every statement of faith, taking for granted the authority of the Bible, which entirely supplants tradition.” The book Religion in America states: “The group has never wavered from its focus on Bible study, and its teachings are supported by an elaborate system of references to scripture.”“
–Watchtower, 1994, 2/15It is precisely because of this close adherence to Bible teachings that the veneration and idolization of human leaders so characteristic of cults today is not to be found among Jehovah’s Witnesses. They reject the concept of a clergy-laity distinction. The Encyclopedia of Religion aptly states about Jehovah’s Witnesses:
“A clergy class and distinctive titles are prohibited.”They follow Jesus Christ as their Leader and as Head of the Christian congregation. It was Jesus who said: “Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:8-12.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are as far from being a cult as Jesus was from being a glutton and a drunkard.
Hi david,
So you do not follow the instructions of you brothers as to what you must believe and you do not promote their beliefs but you do your own research with an open mind?
You do not follow them but Christ?Quote (david @ June 07 2007,09:29) Unfortunately, JW's were guitly of the same thing these early Christians were.
But they were right about 1914 being the end of the gentile times. I would like to discuss this subject much more and actually explain what I believe, but today is not a good day for me.
David, I would very much like to hear more about this topic.I have nothing but respect for the ladies that “work” our neighborhood
They were the ones who first shared with me that the Trinity wasn't true! I may not be a converted JW (in fact I am a spiritual mis-fit, I'm afraid), but I do thank them for giving me that truth.
david you’re such a pleasure
I can’t give the JW denomination honour for your words;
I can only give glory and honour to God for that heart of yours
And may God bless the JWscharity
I have a question for David, or any other WT floating around here.
Who are the predecessors of the JWs?
You would think that looking back, we could find some record of an ante-nicene religious group whose theology aligns with that of the Witnesses. Also, in examining the attendees of the various councils during early church history (which accurately reflected the eclectic theological 'groups' of the day) you would think that one of groups repesented there would have had theological views that closely resembled those of the JWs?
Fill us in David, inquiring minds want to know….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 07 2007,16:57) I have a question for David, or any other WT floating around here. Who are the predecessors of the JWs?
You would think that looking back, we could find some record of an ante-nicene religious group whose theology aligns with that of the Witnesses. Also, in examining the attendees of the various councils during early church history (which accurately reflected the eclectic theological 'groups' of the day) you would think that one of groups repesented there would have had theological views that closely resembled those of the JWs?
Fill us in David, inquiring minds want to know….
Is 1:18Excellent question.
Where were the JWs in the 1st century church?
Since they claim to be the “true church”, how come it took nearly 1900 years to show up.
God has always had a remnant.
His true church his body has never died or been snuffed out, but has been alive and well since the day of Penticost.
Looking back through church history the only group I see that resembles the Watchtower was the arians, although there were fundamental disagreements between their theology and that of the JWs, for instance they regarded the Holy Spirit as a personal being. It's also significant that they didn't show up until the 4th century and their views were very much a novelty at that time. So I would think that David would be reluctant to associate his denomination with them. It will be interesting to see what David comes up with….
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