Jehovah&#39;s witnesses

Participant

Quote

The advent, is a reference guide to what the church believes in, thier creed/statement on scriptures. It gives them the 'substance' on how the church interupts scripture. Is this somewhat similar to the watchtower ?

Most denominations have some sort of 'self' help references they go to.

I am sorry the attacks come to you, this is not an attack. Just a question.

Olive, the Watchtower is a magazine that is available and offered to everyone. We have many references we can look to. The Watchtower magazines, Awake magazines, many books, reference books, etc.

I guess the answer to your question would be “yes.”

May 23, 2007 at 6:35 am#52955

Participant

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David,
Here is a random thought (you may remember that I have two JW friends who come to visit me every now and then), they told me that JESUS IS HERE already! That he came in 1914. Is this true? Thanks.

Not3in1,
In 1905 the Watch Tower of September 1 warned:

“There will be more war ere long,” also stating that a “great cataclysm” would start in 1914.

We, although having some false expectations (even as the early disciples did) we knew that the Bible pointed to 1914 as being the beginning of the conclusion of system of things.

In fact, as early as 1879, that publication pointed to 1914 as a significant date. In later years it noted that Bible prophecies in the book of Daniel pinpointed that date as the time when God’s Kingdom was established in heaven. (Matthew 6:10) While 1914 was not the time for the Kingdom to take complete control of earth’s affairs, it was the time for it to begin its rule.

Jesus foretold that the start of this period would be marked by world wars, food shortages, disease epidemics, devastating earthquakes, and increased lawlessness as well as the cooling off of people’s love for God and man. All these things, he said, would mark the “beginning of pangs of distress.”—Matthew 24:3-12.

And of course, the great preaching work that was fortold had to take place. (mat 24:14)

. The New York World of August 30, 1914, explains: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ [as Jehovah’s Witnesses were then known] . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”

I could quote from a string of historians that say that the world changed in every way imaginable in 1914.

But, I imagine your question centers more around the fact that if jesus presense began in 1914, why do we still have these terrible things.

Remember how Jesus would be ruling in the midst of his enemies?

1 CORINTHIANS 15:25
“For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet.”

Also:
PSALM 110:1
“The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.””
ACTS 2:35
“until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’”

Anyway, the first thing Jesus did when he began ruling was to throw Satan out of heaven.

I believe the one on the white horst that goes forth conquering in verse 2 of Rev. 6 is Jesus. After this rider on the white horse went forth conquering, war, starvation, pestielence, etc occured on the earth.
This is because Satan has been rather, angry, knowing his time is short, he is making a final effort to bring as many others down with him.

REVELATION 12:7-9
“And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”
REVELATION 12:12
“On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.””

It was “woe for the earth” when this happened. I beleive this happened in 1914.

How do secular authorities or historians view 1914?

“Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.

The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.

“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War [World War I, which started in 1914] left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.”—General Charles de Gaulle, speaking in 1968 (Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9).

“The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.”—Editorial in the Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949.

“Looking back from the vantage point of the present we see clearly today that the outbreak of World War I ushered in a twentieth-century ‘Time of Troubles’—in the expressive term of the British historian Arnold Toynbee—from which our civilization has by no means yet emerged. Directly or indirectly all the convulsions of the last half century stem back to 1914.”—The Fall of the Dynasties: The Collapse of the Old Order (New York, 1963), Edmond Taylor, p. 16.

No previous war in history compared with it. It was so different that historians of that time called it The Great War.
Of it, an encyclopedia states: “World War I took the lives of twice as many men as all major wars from 1790 to 1913 put together.” It noted that total military casualties were over 37,000,000, and added: “The number of civilian deaths in areas of actual war totaled about 5,000,000. Starvation, disease, and exposure accounted for about 80 of every 100 of these civilian deaths. Spanish influenza, which some persons blamed on the war, caused tens of millions of other deaths.–The World Book Encyclopedia, 1966, Vol. 20, p. 377.
World War! Pestilences! Food shortages!

“Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.”—British statesman Harold Macmillan, The New York Times, November 23, 1980.

“Increasingly, the 75-year period from 1914 to 1989, covering two world wars and the cold war, is being seen by historians as a single, discrete epoch, a time apart in which much of the world was fighting war, recovering from war or preparing for war.”—The New York Times, May 7, 1995.
“The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. Before then, men thought that utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since . . . More people have been killed in this century than in all of history.”—Dr. Walker Percy, American Medical News, November 21, 1977.

“It is indeed the year 1914 rather than that of Hiroshima which marks the turning point in our time, for by now we can see that . . . it was the first world war that ushered in the era of confused transition in the midst of which we are floundering.”—Dr. René Albrecht-Carrié, Barnard College, The Scientific Monthly, July 1951.

“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.”—The Economist, London, August 4, 1979.

“World War I and its aftermath led to the greatest economic depression in history during the early 1930’s. The consequences of the war and the problems of adjustment to peace led to unrest in almost every nation.”–The World Book Encyclopedia (1966, Vol. 20) on page 379 under its heading “World War I”

Author Maurice Genevoix, who was a military officer during that war, said of it: “Everyone agrees in recognizing that in the whole history of mankind, few dates have had the importance of August 2, 1914. First Europe and soon after almost all humanity found themselves plunged into a dreadful event. Conventions, agreements, moral laws, all the foundations shook; from one day to the next, everything was called into question. The event was to exceed both instinctive forebodings and reasonable anticipations. Enormous, chaotic, monstrous, it still drags us in its wake.”—Maurice Genevoix, member of the Académie Française, quoted in the book Promise of Greatness (1968).

“The modern era . . . began in 1914, and no one knows when or how it will end. . . . It could end in mass annihilation.”—The Seattle Times, January 1, 1959.

“In its scope, its violence, and above all, in its totality, it established a precedent. World War I ushered in the century of Total War, of—in the first full sense of the term—global war. . . .Never before 1914-1918 had a war absorbed so much of the total resources of so many combatants and covered so large a part of the earth. Never had so many nations been involved. Never had the slaughter been so comprehensive and indiscriminate.”–World War I, by H.W. Baldwin, pages 1,2

The World Book Encyclopedia noted that the number of soldiers killed and wounded was over 37,000,000, and added:
“The number of civilian deaths in areas of actual war totaled about 5,000,000. Starvation, disease, and exposure accounted for about 80 of every 100 of these civilian deaths. Spanish influenza, which some persons blamed on the war, caused tens of millions of other deaths.”—1966 edition, Vol. 20, p. 377.

More than 50 years after 1914, German statesman Konrad Adenauer wrote: “Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.”—The West Parker, Cleveland, Ohio, January 20, 1966.

“Some historians believe that the 20th century will be seen as a time of unparalleled savagery,” notes The New York Times.

An article in The Washington Post concurs: “Our 20th-century wars have been ‘total wars’ against combatants and civilians alike,” it says. “The casualties, including the genocide of the Jews, are measured in the tens of millions. The barbarian wars of centuries past were alley fights in comparison.” Civil insurrections have added to the carnage. How many have died? “The ‘megadeaths’ since 1914, by an estimate of Zbigniew Brzezinski, have totaled 197 million, ‘the equivalent of more than one in ten of the total world population in 1900,’” says the Post. It adds that it is an “indisputable fact that terrorism and wanton killing are embedded deeply in the culture of this century” and that “no political or economic system has so far in this century pacified or satisfied the restless millions.”

As regards economic consequences, Ashby Bladen, a senior vice president of The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, writes: “Before 1914 the monetary and the financial systems were compatible. . . . If one takes August 1914 as marking the dividing line between them, the contrasts between the nineteenth and the twentieth centuries are striking. In many aspects of human affairs there has been a complete reversal of trend. . . . One major reason was the severance of the linkage between the financial system and money with intrinsic value that began in 1914. . . . The breaking of the linkage was a momentous event. . . . 1914 marked a radical, and in the end catastrophic, transformation of that system.”

“The 19th century—defined as a set of beliefs, assumptions, attitudes and morals—did not end on Jan. 1, 1901,” wrote columnist Charley Reese. “It ended in 1914. That’s also when the 20th century, defined the same way, began.”
Reese explained: “Virtually all of the conflicts that we have been concerned with all of our lives stemmed from that [first world] war. . . . It destroyed 19th century optimism and created the 20th century versions of hedonism, cynicism, anxiety, angst and nihilism.”

Life magazine stated: “It [WWI] killed more men than any previous war, and it was the first war to suck in whole nations, including civilians.”–March 13, 1964, p. 45.

Anyway, perhaps you could specify your actual question.

May 23, 2007 at 6:38 am#52957

http://knocking.org/ReligiousPersecutionReport.html

Participant

I found this on the knocking thread, I mentioned above.

A new film about Jehovah's Witnesses will broadcast nationally in the United States on PBS May 22. The documentary is released at a time when Jehovah's Witnesses are being persecuted around the world. The film explains the historical legal struggles of Jehovah's Witnesses and their subsequent contribution to civil liberties in the U.S. and abroad. KNOCKING puts a human face on Jehovah's Witnesses as it tells the stories behind the controversial actions (door-to-door proselytizing, refusal of blood transfusions) that often place the 7-million member group at odds with the governments in the 236 lands where they worship.

Jehovah's Witnesses are among the most frequent targets of government-sanctioned suppression and persecution, according to the U.S. State Department's 2006 Annual Report on International Religious Freedom. The perpetrators are not just totalitarian governments, but increasingly include emerging and mature democracies. Official repression includes unlawful detention, revolving imprisonment policies, raids on houses of worship, economic discrimination, denial of employment and education, orchestrated smear campaigns, and confiscation of property.

*In France, the government has officially branded Jehovah's Witnesses a “dangerous sect.” In 2006 alone, 71 Kingdom Halls of Jehovah's Witnesses were vandalized, firebombed, burned and shot at. Rather than offer protection, French government officials publicly call Jehovah's Witnesses “criminals” and impose a crippling 60-percent tax not levied on any other religion.

*South Korea has imprisoned 1,000 Jehovah's Witness ministers who are conscientious objectors to military service. Men who complete their jail time are re-drafted and given new prison sentences. Singapore only incarcerates Jehovah's Witnesses while other conscientious objectors are allowed to do non-military community service. In Turkey, a Jehovah's Witness was just handed his ninth prison term for refusal to bear arms.

*Moscow has outlawed Jehovah's Witnesses as a religion. They are not allowed to own houses of worship and are banned from practicing their faith anywhere. In other parts of Russia, police have raided services, beaten worshipers and jailed entire congregations. Uzbekistan has stripped its Jehovah's Witness communities of any legal status.

*Mexican authorities confiscated the farmland of 70 Jehovah's Witness families in 2005 and redistributed it to other settlers. Schools in Mexico fire teachers who are Jehovah's Witnesses.

*In India, mobs attacked Jehovah's Witnesses in door-to-door ministry – some beaten with fence posts — in nine documented cases in 2006. Authorities refused to prosecute the assailants, but filed charges against the Jehovah's Witnesses for inciting the violence.

When releasing the 2006 Religious Freedom report, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice warned, “The entire world is threatened…by religious intolerance.” A government that abuses the freedoms of a vulnerable religious minority often signals a weakening commitment to democratic values.

Jehovah's Witnesses are pushing governments to honor their democratic promises of religious freedom. Jehovah's Witnesses are currently litigating more than 400 cases around the world to secure their right to worship, speech, and assembly. From local courtrooms to the European Court of Human Rights, the outcome of these cases will either expand or contract freedom for all. When it comes to the prognosis of a stable democracy, Jehovah's Witnesses are the “canary in the coalmine.”

Jehovah's Witnesses are strictly apolitical, but in 29 countries they are banned as a threat to public order. They refuse to fight in war, but they wage legal battles for their right to worship. Their insistence on their right to publicly spread their message has won the same right for groups with whom they disagree. They are moral conservatives, but their numerous court victories have defined and strengthened human rights and freedoms far beyond the bounds of their strict Christian code.

Jehovah's Witnesses began their legal fight in the United States in the 1930s and 1940s, where they faced mob violence and government discrimination in more than 40 states. Jehovah's Witnesses have argued a record 62 cases before the U.S. Supreme Court , of which they have won 50. Legal scholars say that their victories defined and strengthened First-Amendment freedoms for all Americans. Since then Jehovah's Witnesses have often gone to court in emerging democracies from Africa to Asia to secure those same rights. Their legal struggles have continued unabated into the 21st century.

May 23, 2007 at 7:22 am#52960

Participant

Hi david,
fudge fudge fudge
You forgot the question?
Quote
David,
Here is a random thought (you may remember that I have two JW friends who come to visit me every now and then), they told me that JESUS IS HERE already! That he came in 1914. Is this true? Thanks.

May 23, 2007 at 9:58 am#52965

Proclaimer

Participant

If he came in 1914, where exactly is he now?

Seriously. Where do JWs say he actually is?

May 23, 2007 at 1:19 pm#52974

kenrch

Participant

I believe the JWs say Jesus is here now but is Spirit so we can't see Him.

Spiritually, Jesus has been here long before the nineteen hundreds.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The second coming is like the first a physical coming.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At this time everyone would have made their choice who they will serve. God knows the beginning from the end.

At that time many will come saying Lord, Lord didn't we keep your creeds? Didn't we pray the same prayers over and over? Didn't we call ourselves father, wear long robes, burn candles, make graven Images etc. etc.? Didn't we make a new Sabbath day and reject the forth Commandment?

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

IHN&L,

Ken

May 23, 2007 at 1:25 pm#52976

olive

Participant

Hey David,

Thank you for your answer, it was greatly appreciated, one can ponder on this question regarding symbols attached to ones belief, budda's, crosses, fish, last supper portraits…..

What some call now-a-days, or what I call new age, go to so many different places to have scripture 'read and understood', many 'self' help books, pamphlets.

It is quite sad, to see denominations turning away from scriptures themselves, they turn to another man's writings to learn, what is so easily understood, by reading scriptures themselves, do you not agree?

I myself, have a hard time, when I start to read scriptures to stop…….that is why I so enjoy my sabbaths, no interuptions, all is prepared, ready. Works are in order.

I have never heard this, 1914 theory before, sounds outlandish to me.

Predition of the future by man, is not good David, do you not agree to what is written:

Mar 13:32-33 `And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known–not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son–except the Father. Take heed, watch and pray, for ye have not known when the time is

blessings and love

May 23, 2007 at 8:46 pm#53015

Participant

Quote

If he came in 1914, where exactly is he now?

Seriously. Where do JWs say he actually is?

so you guys think that after untold eons of life as a spirit being, he's going to become human again.
He had to become human and come to the earth for the short time he did so that he could die a sacrificial death, and be a “corresponding ransom” (corresponding to Adam (man).)

I would say much more, but have to go.

May 23, 2007 at 11:50 pm#53035

Not3in1

Participant

so you guys think that after untold eons of life as a spirit being, he's going to become human again.
*****************

David, I haven't finished all of your posts yet, but this caught my eye. Didn't the two angels tell the disciples as they were gazing up at the Lord acsending into heaven – that Jesus will appear again just as they saw him go – in the clouds? Remember that they saw him leave as a man?

May 23, 2007 at 11:56 pm#53036

Not3in1

Participant

It was “woe for the earth” when this happened. I beleive this happened in 1914.
*******************
David, this is a hard teaching. It's hard to accept because the bible talks about those who say they know where Jesus is (prior to his return). It sounds like you are doing just that. It's also hard because the bible talks about a physical return, and also talks about the golified Son still being a man in heaven. Thanks for answering my question.

May 24, 2007 at 12:23 am#53041

Proclaimer

Participant

Whether Christ has a spiritual body like the angels or a human body, the fact is that every eye shall see him when he returns. He is not coming back in an invisible state. Rather he will be very visible according to the accounts in scripture.

If he came in 1914, then no eye saw him and then we are really just believing reports that say he is here or there, or he will come in 19??, or he has already come.

The second coming of Christ will not be a matter of debate when it happens. Every eye shall see him and there will be no room for saying he came in 19??, or whatever date men say he came or will come. Everyone will just know because the wicked will want the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the light and the righteous will be with him or go up to meet him.

Another point regarding the dates of Christ's return is that only the Father knows the day and hour. Are we to assume that only the Father and the JWs knew prior to 1914, and then Christ came third when receiving this knowledge.

Or is it that in a time before 1914, the Father said “get ready, you will return in 1914” and then that revelation was passed down to the JWs exclusively?

Or perhaps they say “we know the year, but not the exact day and hour”.

For me no matter how I look at the idea of Christ's return in 1914, it is against the advice that Jesus gave us about his own return.

May 24, 2007 at 12:50 am#53044

Participant

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“Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him.” (Rev 1:7)

The book of Revelation is presented “in signs.” (Revelation 1:1)

This passage, then, must be symbolic; after all, how could “those who pierced him” see Christ return?

Furthermore, the angels said that Christ would return “in the same manner” as he departed. Well, how did he leave? With millions watching? No, just a few faithful ones beheld the event.

And when the angels spoke to them, were the apostles literally watching Christ’s journey all the way to heaven? No, a cloud cover had obscured Jesus from view.
Sometime thereafter, he must have entered the spirit heavens as a spirit being, invisible to human eyes. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

So, at most, the apostles saw only the beginning of Jesus’ journey; they could not watch its ending, his return to the heavenly presence of his Father, Jehovah. This they could only discern with their eyes of faith.—John 20:17.

The Bible teaches that Jesus returns in much the same way. Jesus himself said shortly before his death: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more.” (John 14:19) He also said that “the kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20)

The fact is, Christ does much more than simply “return.” That word, like “coming,” “arrival,” or “advent,” implies a single event in a brief moment of time. But the Greek word that Jesus and his followers used means much more. The word is pa·rou·sía, literally meaning a “being alongside” or a “presence.”
Most scholars agree that this word incorporates not only an arrival but also a subsequent presence—as in a State visit from a royal personage. This presence is not a momentary event; it is a special era, a marked period of time.

At Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus said that “the presence [pa·rou·sía] of the Son of man” would be like “the days of Noah” which culminated in the Flood. Noah was building the ark and warning the wicked for decades before the Flood arrived and wiped out that corrupt world system. Likewise, then, Christ’s invisible presence lasts over a period of some decades before it too culminates in a great destruction.

Undoubtedly, the pa·rou·sía is not literally visible to human eyes. If it were, why would Jesus spend so much time, as we shall see, giving his followers a sign to help them to discern this presence?

However, when Christ comes to destroy Satan’s world system, the fact of his presence will be overwhelmingly manifest to all. It is then that “every eye will see him.” Even Jesus’ opponents will be able to discern, to their dismay, that Christ’s reign is real.—See Matthew 24:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 1:5, 6.

I have to go. I will add these scriptures again:

John 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.” (Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
Acts 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.” (Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
John 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)

Acts 1:9-11: “While they [Jesus’ apostles] were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.’”

(Notice that this says “the same manner,” not the same body. What was the “manner” of his ascent? As verse 9 shows, he disappeared from view, his departure being observed only by his disciples. The world in general was not aware of what happened. The same would be true of Christ’s return.)

What is meant by his ‘coming on the clouds’ and ‘every eye seeing him’?
Rev. 1:7: “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.” (Also Matthew 24:30; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27)
What is indicated by “clouds”? Invisibility. When an airplane is in a thick cloud or above the clouds, people on the ground usually cannot see it, although they may hear the roar of the engines. Jehovah told Moses: “I am coming to you in a dark cloud.” Moses did not see God, but that cloud indicated Jehovah’s invisible presence. (Ex. 19:9; see also Leviticus 16:2; Numbers 11:25.) If Christ were to appear visibly in the heavens, it is obvious that not “every eye” would see him. If he appeared over Australia, for example, he would not be visible in Europe, Africa, and the Americas, would he?
In what sense will ‘every eye see him’? They will discern from events on earth that he is invisibly present. Also referring to sight that is not physical, John 9:41 reports: “Jesus said to [the Pharisees]: ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, “We see.” Your sin remains.’” (Compare Romans 1:20.) Following Christ’s return, some persons show faith; they recognize the sign of his presence. Others reject the evidence, but when Christ goes into action as God’s executioner of the wicked, even they will discern from the manifestation of his power that the destruction is not from men but from heaven. They will know what is happening because they were warned in advance. Because of what is overtaking them, they will “beat themselves in grief.”
Who are “those who pierced him”? Literally, Roman soldiers did this at the time of Jesus’ execution. But they have long been dead. So this must refer to people who similarly mistreat, or ‘pierce,’ Christ’s true followers during “the last days.”—Matt. 25:40, 45.

Can it really be said that a person has ‘come’ or that he is ‘present’ if he is not visible?
The apostle Paul spoke of his being “absent in body but present in spirit” with the congregation in Corinth.—1 Cor. 5:3.
Jehovah spoke of his ‘going down’ to confuse the language of the builders of the tower of Babel. (Gen. 11:7) He also said that he would “go down” to deliver Israel from bondage to Egypt. And God assured Moses, “My own person will go along” to lead Israel to the Promised Land. (Ex. 3:8; 33:14) But no human ever saw God.—Ex. 33:20; John 1:18.

May 24, 2007 at 12:52 am#53045

Participant

Who wants to ride with Luke?
Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when “ye shall desire” to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it]. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Psa 2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying], Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Finally why should God have to come shake the earth and cause the beginning of sorrows; likening it to Sodom; which was found to have near to one perfect heart
EVEN two witness get killed and the world rejoice and give gifts; showing the truth in the end a mystery and many refusing to consider anything differing proof to what the proudly have put together and passed down to many generations until the whole world is drinking from this cup; so far from the truth; having used the bible to do so; and building on a rock that has confused the Nations to reins

May 24, 2007 at 12:57 am#53046

kenrch

Participant

Quote

Can it really be said that a person has ‘come’ or that he is ‘present’ if he is not visible?

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

May 24, 2007 at 1:03 am#53047

Participant

Quote (charity @ May 24 2007,12:52)

Hi charity,
Me for one.
Dr Luke is an anointed man.

May 24, 2007 at 1:18 am#53051

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,13:03)

Quote (charity @ May 24 2007,12:52)

Hi charity,
Me for one.
Dr Luke is an anointed man.

WHY answer in such hast?

You have not even allowed your soul time to deal justly to see if there is any good that I have intended within my posts

May 24, 2007 at 1:41 am#53054

Participant

Hi charity,
I always read your offerings.
You seem sad and alone and deprived of eternal friendship and you cannot trust any of God's servants.
You do not love my eternal friends and so I wonder how you could love the God who worked and wrote through them.

May 24, 2007 at 3:03 am#53058

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,13:41)

why should I not feel sad?

Friendship and love is conditional; to accepting your options?
If I do not hearken I shall have mud thrown at me day after day until it sticks?
I am not alone in this the insults flow?
There is no order; no justice; nothing established; free to trample under foot
And “forgive everyone” Has it been misused?
Has it been perverted that no effort is suffered for justice ; except an opened door that the oppressor may enter to destroy THE POOR AND NEEDY? any good?

Justice and Judgment BY Righteousness?

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Ecc 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for [he that is] higher than the highest regardeth; and [there be] higher than they.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Isa 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
Jer 22:15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest [thyself] in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, [and] then [it was] well with him?
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Eze 45:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD.

Lord help any that have no one to help them up when they fall? least they give up in dispear? And who should care for that?

Where are the Good MEN? The eyes have wandered off to A ruptured kingdom not of this world hence with John; Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, my kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Psa 22:28 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations.

What notice is ever given to finding the kingdom that was established for ever to the earth with Christ?
Many carry on as if it never was meant important?
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Psa 89:44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Psa 93:2 Thy throne [is] established of old: thou [art] from everlasting.

Selah

May 24, 2007 at 3:13 am#53061

Participant

Hi charity,
New wine needs a new wineskin or the wine is lost.

A good storeman can bring old and new from his storeroom.

Lev 26
” 10And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new. “
Song of Solomon 7:13
“The mandrakes have given forth fragrance;And over our doors are all choice fruits,Both new and old,Which I have saved up for you, my beloved.
Luke 5:39
“And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'”

May 24, 2007 at 3:22 am#53064