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Quote (david @ Feb. 24 2007,04:07) Hi T8. Most of what you assume and say is wrong. As well, you seem to desparately want to believe that JW's tithe. I asked if you'd stop expressing the false belief that JW's tithe. You have yet to answer this question.
Does that mean you are going to continue to spread false beliefs?Here is what the word “tithe” means:
Contribution of a tenth of one's income for religious purposes. The practice of tithing was established in the Hebrew scriptures and was adopted by the Western Christian church. It was enjoined by eccesiastical law from the 6th century and enforced in Europe by secular law from the 8th century. After the Reformation, tithes continued to be imposed for the benefit of both the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches. Tithes were eventually repealed in France (1789), Ireland (1871), Italy (1887), and England (1936). In Germany support for churches is collected through the personal income tax and distributed according to the individual's religious affiliation. Tithing was never part of U.S. law, but members of certain churches (e.g., the Mormons) are required to tithe, and members of other churches may tithe voluntarily. Tithing was never accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches.–Britannica
Jehovah's Witnesses do not tithe. We follow the example of the earliest Christians. T8 does not follow their example. In fact, he cannot.
“Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)
Jesus had commissioned his disciples ‘to be witnesses to the most distant part of the earth.’ (Acts 1:8) As the number of believers grew, so did the need for Christian teachers and overseers to visit and strengthen the congregations. Widows, orphans, and other needy ones had to be cared for at times. . How did the first-century Christians cover the costs involved?
About 55 C.E., an appeal went out to Gentile Christians in Europe and Asia Minor in behalf of the impoverished congregation in Judea.
In his letters to the congregation in Corinth, the apostle Paul describes how this ‘collection for the holy ones’ was organized. (1 Corinthians 16:1) You T8, may be surprised at what Paul’s words reveal about Christian giving.The apostle Paul did not force fellow believers to give. In fact, Macedonian Christians who were “under affliction” and in “deep poverty” had to ‘keep begging him with much entreaty for the privilege of kindly giving and for a share in the ministry destined for the holy ones.’—2 Corinthians 8:1-4.
Rather than specifying an amount or a percentage, Paul merely suggested that “on the first day of every week, each one . . . should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income.” (1 Corinthians 16:2, NIV)
By planning and reserving an amount on a regular basis, the Corinthians would not feel pressured into giving begrudgingly or on emotional impulse when Paul arrived. For each Christian, the decision of how much to give was to be a private matter, one that ‘he had resolved in his own heart.’—2 Corinthians 9:5, 7.
It is significant that Paul supervised a ‘collection for the holy ones’ who were in need. We do not read in the Scriptures about Paul or the other apostles organizing collections or receiving tithes to finance their own ministries. (Acts 3:6) Always grateful to receive the gifts that the congregations sent him, Paul conscientiously avoided imposing “an expensive burden” on his brothers.—1 Thessalonians 2:9; Philippians 4:15-18.
Jesus fortold the greatest preaching work in history for our time:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Jehovah's Witnesses today follow the principles set out by the early Christians and God's inspired word. We do not do so for monetary gain. Any who wish to volunteer money to the worldwide work or to a certain aspect of this work, may do so.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not tithe. Now that you understand and know this T8, I will start to use the word “lie” if you suggest this any more times.
david
david, I am rather surprised at your post. You seem to be attacking me personally like others have here. But I learned something from your behaviour and that is that those who treat me in such a way do so because they feel threatened. Your post made me see that.Now in answer to your question about JWs tithing, you said yourself that I seemed to hint at it and now you say that I am saying it outright.
I am sure that some JWs must give 10% and I have said before that others may give more or less than that. But the 10% figure is not the important point that I am bringing out. It is the fact that they give to a religious organisation. For what significance is there in the amount given. 10% in reality is just a percentage. The significance is what you give to and what your motive is. If I give 5% or 50% to the poor then I have given to whom Christ commanded. But if I give 5% or 50% to a religious organisation, then I have given in a way that is not taught in scripture.
I have been to denominations before and seen how it works. They are usually discreet and involve some sort of collection box or bag. It is up to each member of a denomination to give nothing, little, 10%, 50%, or 100%. Sermons are often given with a giving message in order to help the members to give more to the religious organisation that they serve.
You are right that some organisations have a strict 10% policy (although I am sure that they would gladly accept more than that figure), but most do not have this strict policy. I think you can be a Catholic and not give that much or anything at all for that matter. But lets not beat around the bush. It is still the same thing. Don't get hung up on 10% david. Rather challenge yourself by saying “does my money go to the poor” when I give to the Jehovah Witness organisation. If the answer is yes then work out how much actually goes to the poor after they have extracted wages, rents, rates, mortgages, investments, and other things. Then ask yourself why you do not give to the poor directly if your giving is to the Jehovah Witness organisation primarily or exclusively.
Such people who give to denominations (probably without realising it) are promoting disunity and confusion for the Body of Christ and make it harder for those who are lost to see any relevance in the so-called Church by reason of all the names, doctrines, scandals, and religious pomp they observe and read about in the newspapers everyday.
People who serve denominations obviously do not realise that Jesus never taught us to give to religious organisations. The sad part is that all these (physical) denominations wouldn't exist if it weren't for the funds they receive from their followers. So those who give money to them are responsible for their existence and their works because their money is the life blood of their denominations.
david if you serve the Jehovah Witness organisation, then it is obvious to all that you are no better than a zealous Mormon, Christadelphian, or Catholic. You are all the same. You divide under different names and you claim to be the true group and yet you cannot see past your own physical organisations. Woe to such people for they are blind and they zealously sow discord and confusion even in ignorance because they are blind and deceived regarding such matters. Such people point out the sins of others to make them look good. It comforts them and makes them feel that they are right.
You say that
the group you belong to follows the example of the earliest Christians. Well if that were true then you would support the Body of Christ. You obviously do not do that because your loyalties lie with the JWs only and I assume exclusively.BTW: I am still awaiting your answer I posed to you earlier:
Do you believe that the Body of Christ renamed itself to the Jehovah Witnesses a hundred or hundreds of years ago and then setup a sub-organisation in New York called the Watchtower as the prophet or as a prophetic body.
Do you believe this and is your mission to make others believe this among other things?
I sure would appreciate some honesty.
Let your yes be yes and your no be no.Quote david, I am rather surprised at your post. You seem to be attacking me personally like others have here. But I learned something from your behaviour and that is that those who treat me in such a way do so because they feel threatened. Ummm. No, wrong again. It is because you are having great difficulty understanding that JW's don't tithe. So, yes, I've become more direct.
Quote If I give 5% or 50% to the poor then I have given to whom Christ commanded. But if I give 5% or 50% to a religious organisation, then I have given in a way that is not taught in scripture.
Were the earliest Christians giving “in a way that is not taught in scripture” when they followed the scriptures I outlined in my post above?
Yes, of course they were.Quote I have been to denominations before and seen how it works.
Yes, and I hear a guy in New Zealand killed someone once, so I know how New Zealand is filled with murderers. Hey, aren't you from NZ? Of course, the fact that there are false Christians as fortold has nothing to do with true worship.
I know that you rightly do not tolerate forced giving or giving to priests who are paid for fleecing their flocks. That has nothing to do with JW's.Quote They are usually discreet and involve some sort of collection box or bag. It is up to each member of a denomination to give nothing, little, 10%, 50%, or 100%.
Unless it has changed, the Catholic church is not in the slightest, discreet, when it comes to this. A money basket is passed around for all to see, who gives what. Maybe other religons are discreet, as you say.Quote Sermons are often given with a giving message in order to help the members to give more to the religious organisation that they serve.
With respect to JW's, sermon's or “talks” as we tend to call them are not “often” given. However, at the end of each month, in the announcements portion, the accounts report is read, which states how much is needed to maintain our place of worship, where we congregate (heb 10:24) to pay for electricity, etc, and how much has been donated for this. We are kept up to date on everything and everything is public knowledge.Quote Don't get hung up on 10% david. Rather challenge yourself by saying “does my money go to the poor” when I give to the Jehovah Witness organisation.
Despite what you may falsely believe, the early Christians were not a social service group. They were primarily engaged in the preaching work. Check “Acts.” They robbed from the rich and gave to the poor. No, wait, that's robin hood.
JW's do contribute to relief funds, and can have their money sent to virtually wherever they wish.GALATIANS 6:10
“Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to [us] in the faith.”I think because we don't get involved in politics (like the early Christians) and because we don't advertise what we're up to, people tend to think we are useless to society (as they did of the early Christians). This is false. We help our neighbors in times of need. Because we're so ORGANIZED t8, we are often in a better position to help ones in emergencies than the authorities.
Quote If the answer is yes then work out how much actually goes to the poor after they have extracted wages, rents, rates, mortgages, investments, and other things.
Primarily, there are two things you can donate to, YOu can contribute to the kingdom hall fund, which covers maintainence of the building, OR you can contribute to the worldwide preaching work, (which would include building places of worship in lands where they don't have a surplus, for example, 2 Cor 8:14, or to the vast amount of Bibles and bible literature we produce).
As well, anyone can at any time contribute to any other (non-Witness) donation arrangement. If you want to give to the poor, who is stopping you. (Of course, with such giving, often, much of the funds don't actually make it to where you want it to go.)Quote Then ask yourself why you do not give to the poor directly if your giving is to the Jehovah Witness organisation primarily or exclusively.
You commit the fallacy of making this an either/or situation. You can give to the poor and at the same time contribute to the global worldwide preaching work that is under way. (Mat 24:14)Quote People who serve denominations obviously do not realise that Jesus never taught us to give to religious organisations. Everyone should realize how the early Christian congregation functioned:
Quote Jesus had commissioned his disciples ‘to be witnesses to the most distant part of the earth.’ (Acts 1:8) As the number of believers grew, so did the need for Christian teachers and overseers to visit and strengthen the congregations. Widows, orphans, and other needy ones had to be cared for at times. . How did the first-century Christians cover the costs involved?
About 55 C.E., an appeal went out to Gentile Christians in Europe and Asia Minor in behalf of the impoverished congregation in Judea.
In his letters to the congregation in Corinth, the apostle Paul describes how this ‘collection for the holy ones’ was organized. (1 Corinthians 16:1) You T8, may be surprised at what Paul’s words reveal about Christian giving.The apostle Paul did not force fellow believers to give. In fact, Macedonian Christians who were “under affliction” and in “deep poverty” had to ‘keep begging him with much entreaty for the privilege of kindly giving and for a share in the ministry destined for the holy ones.’—2 Corinthians 8:1-4.
Rather than specifying an amount or a percentage, Paul merely suggested that “on the first day of every week, each one . . . should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income.” (1 Corinthians 16:2, NIV)
By planning and reserving an amount on a regular basis, the Corinthians would not feel pressured into giving begrudging
ly or on emotional impulse when Paul arrived. For each Christian, the decision of how much to give was to be a private matter, one that ‘he had resolved in his own heart.’—2 Corinthians 9:5, 7.It is significant that Paul supervised a ‘collection for the holy ones’ who were in need. We do not read in the Scriptures about Paul or the other apostles organizing collections or receiving tithes to finance their own ministries. (Acts 3:6) Always grateful to receive the gifts that the congregations sent him, Paul conscientiously avoided imposing “an expensive burden” on his brothers.—1 Thessalonians 2:9; Philippians 4:15-18.
Quote The sad part is that all these (physical) denominations wouldn't exist if it weren't for the funds they receive from their followers.
At this point I'd like to remind everyone that while some churches build their places of worship out of gold, JW's use the simplest of constructions. If there is a land where most houses are made of mud, we use mud.Quote
david if you serve the Jehovah Witness organisation, then it is obvious to all that you are no better than a zealous Mormon, Christadelphian, or Catholic. You are all the same.
Dictionaries and the Bible would suggest otherwise. And I serve Jehovah, not “the Jehovah's Witness organisation.” I could just as easily say you serve the Christian organization. T8, stop serving the Christian congregation and start serving Jesus.
If you think that I'm the same as a Catholic….I'm certain several million Catholics would strongly disagree with you. In fact, they would see much more similarlities between you and I. They in fact, would and probably have accused you of being a JW. And they would probably wrongly say, as you do: “You are all the same.”Quote Such people point out the sins of others to make them look good. It comforts them and makes them feel that they are right.
So what are you doing now? I think that theives always suspect others of having thoughts of stealing. And i think you are comforted by doing now, what you accuse me of.Quote You say that the group you belong to follows the example of the earliest Christians. Well if that were true then you would support the Body of Christ.
I assure you I am. But the body of Christ is not found in this mess of confusion and fighting. Many would say: “lord, lord” and actually think they were doing what is right. But those “doing the will of my father” are the ones Jesus didn't reject.MICAH 4:5
“For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.”Hi david,
Is a building your place of worship?Jn 4
” 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. “
Nick, I can worship wherever I wish. But, in order for me to gather together with fellow believers as the Bible commands (heb 10:24) and to do so without snow on my head, it's best to use some sort of a building.
And yes, Nick, God is a spirit. But we are not, so when it rains, our heads get wet. Roofs are good thing.
The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Ephesians 4:5 says there is “one Lord, one faith.” Jesus stated: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. . . . Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Matt. 7:13, 14, 21; see also 1 Corinthians 1:10.
Stuff you should think about:
Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to the body of true Christian teachings as “the truth,” and Christianity is spoken of as “the way of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 John 1; 2 Pet. 2:2) Because Jehovah’s Witnesses base all of their beliefs, their standards for conduct, and organizational procedures on the Bible, their faith in the Bible itself as God’s Word gives them the conviction that what they have is indeed the truth.
Before we get back to them, let's again address the issue of whether true Christians would be organized or whether they would be all on their own, not together, not organized, as you say.DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.” (See also Acts 1:8; Rom 10:18; 11:13; Rev 14:6)
How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
But to where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?
I'll say that once more, just for emphasis. Where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.”
The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.
ARE THOSE WHO ARE FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD SIMPLY FAITHFUL INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SCATTERED ABOUT?
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Can such unity exist where there is no organization?John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they would be an organized group?HOW CAN JEHOVAH'S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION IN OUR DAY BE IDENTIFIED?
(1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.
(2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.
(3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
(4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.
(5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.
(6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.
(7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.
Quote (david @ Feb. 26 2007,03:47) Ummm. No, wrong again. It is because you are having great difficulty understanding that JW's don't tithe. So, yes, I've become more direct.
Ummmmmmmmmm wrong again again.I haven't said that JWs impose a regime of 10% to the JW organisation anywhere as far as I know. But I have said that some may give that amount while others may pay more or less. I find it hard to believe that I would have gone out on a limb and said something that I do not know for sure. You most likely misinterpreted me david, but trying to find fault in someone can make people hone in on something trivial, while ignoring the important point that it is not the amount but why and where you give that is important.
Seminarian said the following earlier in this post:
Quote JW's – Don't say you have to tithe but subtly suggest that you forget about your children and leave all your money to THEM in your will. Also, their Kingdom Halls or churches never belong to the congregations. You pay THEM for the building's mortgage which returns to them when paid off. This includes extra loans for remodeling and repairs. And you said yourself earlier that I hadn't said it outright, so why a change in stance as if I had said it outright.
If in an earlier post I said that it is mandatory that JW's tithe, then I will apologise, but I doubt I said such a thing.
Quote I haven't said that JWs impose a regime of 10% to the JW organisation anywhere as far as I know. But I have said that some may give that amount while others may pay more or less. I find it hard to believe that I would have gone out on a limb and said something that I do not know for sure. You most likely misinterpreted me david, but trying to find fault in someone can make people hone in on something trivial, while ignoring the important point that it is not the amount but why and where you give that is important. All I want, is for you to recognize that JW's don't tithe, based on what everyone understands that word to be.
Encarta:
1. somebody's financial support for church: one tenth of somebody's income or produce paid voluntarily or as a tax for the support of a church or its clergy2. obligation of supporting church financially: the obligation to pay a tithe to a church or its clergy
3. assessment or contribution: a voluntary contribution or tax payment, especially when it constitutes one tenth of somebody's income
4. small part of something: one tenth or a small part of something
Number 4 does not apply. You seem to keep looking at #1. But we certainly don't have to give a “tax” to support a non-existant clergy class. And simply “supporting a church” is not tithing, because the earliest Christians didn't tithe, but they did give to support the missionaries and helped in a monetary way, yet they weren't tithing.
# 2 I think is what most people think of when they hear tithe in a religious sense, and it is an “obligation” to give. This is the exact opposite of what the scriptures tell us about giving. We are not to give grudgingly or “under compulsion” “for God loves a cheerful giver.” JW's are under no obligation in the slightest to pay a tithe.
You have nowhere stated: JW's tithe. But you have often when speaking of JW's mentioned tithing for some reason. It is annoying that even now, you cannot recognize that we do not tithe. I'm telling you we don't. I should know.Remember “quitearguingoverstupidstuff.”?
He mentioned that while he was a JW (I think for 10 years) he never contributed once in a monetary way.
Quote JW's – Don't say you have to tithe but subtly suggest that you forget about your children and leave all your money to THEM in your will.
Yes, semmy said a lot of false things.Quote If in an earlier post I said that it is mandatory that JW's tithe, then I will apologise, but I doubt I said such a thing.
You never did. You only seem to imply it, and often.sorry if I have pushed too far on this.
Quote (david @ Feb. 25 2007,08:58) Nick, I can worship wherever I wish. But, in order for me to gather together with fellow believers as the Bible commands (heb 10:24) and to do so without snow on my head, it's best to use some sort of a building. And yes, Nick, God is a spirit. But we are not, so when it rains, our heads get wet. Roofs are good thing.
The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Ephesians 4:5 says there is “one Lord, one faith.” Jesus stated: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. . . . Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Matt. 7:13, 14, 21; see also 1 Corinthians 1:10.
Stuff you should think about:
Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to the body of true Christian teachings as “the truth,” and Christianity is spoken of as “the way of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15; 2 John 1; 2 Pet. 2:2) Because Jehovah’s Witnesses base all of their beliefs, their standards for conduct, and organizational procedures on the Bible, their faith in the Bible itself as God’s Word gives them the conviction that what they have is indeed the truth.
Before we get back to them, let's again address the issue of whether true Christians would be organized or whether they would be all on their own, not together, not organized, as you say.DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.” (See also Acts 1:8; Rom 10:18; 11:13; Rev 14:6)
How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
But to where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?
I'll say that once more, just for emphasis. Where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.”
The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.
DOES THE BIBLE SHOW THAT TRUE CHRISTIANS WOULD BE AN ORGANIZED PEOPLE?
1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.
ARE THOSE WHO ARE FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD SIMPLY FAITHFUL INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SCATTERED ABOUT?
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Can such unity exist where there is no organization?John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they would be an organized group?HOW CAN JEHOVAH'S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION IN OUR DAY BE IDENTIFIED?
(1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.
(2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.
(3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
(4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.
(5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.
(6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.
(7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.
Hi david,
Jesus taught that you must be reborn to enter the kingdom so any human group that does not teach rebirth by water and the Spirit puts itself outside of the body of Christ despite how devout their attitude and impressive their works.Your claim the JWs base everything on the bible can only be seen in a very loose way as you have shown so often showing us their dogmas. You should think for yourself and let the Spirit teach you directly from scripture and be joined to Christ before messing about with the organisations formed by men.
Leaving catholicism to join the jws is possibly like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
david.
When I talk about the JW organisation I often lump it in with Mormons and other denominations and cults.
Therefore I may mention tithing or the love of the flocks money.
Tithing particularly annoys me as it is just a denominations way to get rich and prosper in a financial sense. But giving under compulsion is wrong and giving to organisations that claim to be the way are a waste of money.
I believe that God will hold us accountable for what we do with our time and money. If our resources are funneled into an organisation that only helps obscure Christ's body and therefore hindering Christ's work on earth, then I believe that Christ would hold such people accountable (if they are non-repentant) for the organisations works that they support.
Jesus prayed that those that belong to him would be one as he was one with the Father and the Father one with him. So I see all these exclusive clubs, denominations, cults, and other organisations as enemies of what Christ desired for his Church.
It is sad, but many men put resources into things that are against Christ's will, thinking they are doing the will of God.
Quote Jesus taught that you must be reborn to enter the kingdom so any human group that does not teach rebirth by water and the Spirit puts itself outside of the body of Christ despite how devout their attitude and impressive their works. Hi Nick. Although we are not the sort that says loudly and repeatedly: “Are you born again? Have you found Jesus?” we do believe what the Bible says about being born again and this is what we “teach.”
Quote Your claim the JWs base everything on the bible
I've actually come across a few encyclopedias that say that we base all of our beliefs on the Bible.Many denominations claim their differing beliefs are from the bible. Most of it is drunken talk from drinking too much Babylonian wine.
Be ye sober.
See this crazy situation for what it is.
“I am the way, no I am the way, no we are, we are the true church, we are the church that is closest to the NT, we are the biggest church, we are the most powerful, we are the only organisation, we have apostles and you don't, we preach the true gospel and you don't, blah blah blah”
Just a whole lot of drunken talk david. Those voices try to win people over and often have to shout above the others to compete.
But listen to the still small voice.
Quote Tithing particularly annoys me as it is just a denominations way to get rich and prosper in a financial sense. T8, I have several times acknowledged that you have righteous indignation in this regard….you have a right to be annoyed, even angry. I know I am. But let's snap back to reality. The reality is that JW's don't have a paid clergy class. IN FACT, THEY HAVE NO CLERGY AT ALL. The early Christians had no clergy laity distinction and nor do we. I assure you and stake my life on this–there are no JW's anywhere that get rich or prosper in a financial sense because of others tithing. In my congregation, no Witness gets paid anything ever for any work they do, at all, in the slightest, to any degree, ever. Do you understand that? Let me say that again. The people that go to your door and knock on your door are not paid to do that. They are ordinary people like me who have secular work. They volunteer their time because they care for their neighbors. The ones who give “talks” at our meetings are…most everyone, and believe me when I say there is no one making money in that way, or any way. I have been related to people who do the accounts. I am not making this up. Listen, perhaps you've noticed that JW's are often the subject of …accusation and attack. If we were … if anyone was gaining financially, this wouldn't be left in silence.
Quote But giving under compulsion is wrong
Yes, I've already quoted that scripture to you 3 times in the past week.Quote Jesus prayed that those that belong to him would be one as he was one with the Father and the Father one with him.
Yes, and interestingly, JW's are “one” in thought, action, deed, love, purpose, etc. I don't think you have any sense of this, but I can be dropped in …. well, almost anywhere on the planet and find people who share everything with me, who are “one” with me, even if they don't speak the same language, or have a completely different culture. You, or Nick keep saying that it means nothing that JW's are united. Even those of Germany were united under Hitler, (I think Nick said) Yet, as you point out, Jesus true followers would be one. They wouldn't be fighting one another. They would be brothers.Quote So I see all these exclusive clubs
To be clear, JW's are pretty much the exact opposite of “exlusive.” We invite everyone to join us. Everyone.
“Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.”Quote Jesus prayed that those that belong to him would be one as he was one with the Father and the Father one with him. So I see all these exclusive clubs, denominations, cults, and other organisations as enemies of what Christ desired for his Church. this is false reasoning that I have encountered with you so very many times.
You say rightly that:
1. true Christians would be united.
You state rightly that:
2. The many groups claiming to be Christians aren't united.But you make the claim that ALL THESE must be enemies of Christ.
Listen, The Bible says there would be false Christians. A person, let's say a buddhist comes in contact with one of these false Christians, weeds. Then, he falsely believes that all those who claim to be Christians are not that great. He is taking a small sample and applying it to all.
While it is true that Jesus followers are to be united (as JW's are) and while it is true that the many denominations today are at conflict with each other over beliefs, attitudes, etc, it is not true that Christ ever said that all these religions would come together or should.
Yu speak of “what christ desired for the church.” You mentioned this just after mentioning the many denominations. Obviously, Christ detests false teachings and those who say they are Christians when they are really not…those who say “lord,lord,” when it means nothing. Those who have a form of godly devotion, but prove false to it's power. (2 tim 3) We are told to turn away from such ones, in fact.
True Christians would be united. True.
JW's are not divided, among themselves.Quote It is sad, but many men put resources into things that are against Christ's will, thinking they are doing the will of God.
I know T8. I know. Perhaps one of us will be found to be a 'fighter actually against God.' (Acts 5:39)
That's why it's so vitally important to find out what the “will of God” is.Isn't it?
david I can see that you are really trying hard to preach about Jehovah Witnesses, but even if you gave to the poor. blessed your enemies, and many other things that God expects, you at least lack this one thing.
You do not promote unity in the Body of Christ. Worse than that, you actually make it harder for people to believe and see Christ, because you make a mockery his Body by pretending that the Body of Christ renamed itself 200 or so years ago to “The Jehovah Witnesses” and then renamed the prophet ministry to the “Watchtower”.
Of course you cannot pull that one over me, and I don't know if you will convince many (if any) who come here. But if you continue to knock on doors you may gain the odd convert, such as a little old lady who needs help with the gardening.
But then people can be vulnerable and especially when they are older. But it seems cruel to convert vulnerable people to a denomination or cult.
What they really need is the gospel and love and support. But most denominations do not serve for free, they usually recoup the cost and make a profit from the converted every Saturday or Sunday.
In truth david, I think denominations are a cruel system. Instead of serving people, they create people to serve them.
I totally believe that pretending to be the complete or true Body of Christ is a gross sin. Who are you to say that this denomination is the right one, or the best one, or the closest one.
Are you not as silly as those who said “I am a follower of Paul”, I am a follower of “Apollos”. In fact your works are worse than that, because at least Paul and Apollos were apostles of the true Body of Christ and not some offshoot or denomination.
But I (and hope hope others) will be there to help those who have been institutionalised, and want the truth to set them free.
If you are a JW and you have been institutionalised and deep down you desire to be free and search the things of God out rather than have them dictated to you, then some people who visit this website will be there to help.
We are not after your money, membership, or any such thing.
We only want to help and encourage your hunger for truth.
T 8 :
Quote david I can see that you are really trying hard to preach about Jehovah Witnesses
If you think this is me trying really hard, you don't know me in the slightest.I am not trying to “preach” about JW's at all, but rather, this began with me finally getting annoyed at your connecting “tithing” with “JW's” and what you call other “denominations and cults” for the fifth time in the past year.
I'm trying to set matters straight. I only wanted you to acknowledge or understand that we don't tithe, so you could stop implying it. For some reason, instead of doing this, you made it your quest to try to somehow prove yourself right. We don't tithe. We follow the example set out by the early Christians.Quote You do not promote unity in the Body of Christ.
I DON'T NEED TO PROMOTE IT. You feel you need to promote it. BUT HERE'S THE CRAZY THING. The body of Christ is not divided. THerefore, it does not need promoting. You are trying to tie together all forms of false Christianity, and you call this unity.
THERE IS NOOOO NEEEDDD TO PROMOTE UNITY WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you feel you are divided with the body of Christ, perhaps you are not in it.
The body of Christ is not divided. Can I say that again? The body of Christ is not divided. Well, it is divided from false Christians. Jesus did come to divede people, as the scripture says. He didn't come to unite mankind, or form some universal (Catholic) religion. I'll say this once more: The Body Of Christ Is Not Divided! Not with itself.
I do not need to do what you consider to be 'promoting' unity among the body of Christ. The Body of Christ (the Anointed;Bride of Christ; Brothers of Christ, Chosen Ones; Holy Ones; Elect; Holy Nation; Israel of God; Kingdom Class; Little Flock; New Creation; New Nation; Royal House; Royal Priesthood; Sanctuary Class; Spirit Begotten; Spiritual Israel; Spiritual Sons) or any other name you want to give them–THEY ARE THE MOST UNITED GROUP ON THE PLANET !Quote Worse than that, you actually make it harder for people to believe and see Christ, because you make a mockery his Body by pretending that the Body of Christ renamed itself 200 or so years ago to “The Jehovah Witnesses”
I somehow doubt very greatly you, who believe the body of Christ is divided ? ? ? are in any position to judge me in this respect.Quote Of course you cannot pull that one over me, and I don't know if you will convince many (if any) who come here.
Perhaps you've noticed that I really only have these conversations when you speak. And it is because you speak against the body, that I have to defend it. You accuse it of being divided, confused, bickering, set of people who can't agree on love, or anything, really, other than the fact that “Jesus saves.” I feel I must defend it. I'm sorry, but you have been mislead. The body of Christ is not divided among itself.Quote
Of course you cannot pull that one over me, and I don't know if you will convince many (if any) who come here.
I don't expect to convince any. Yet, you must. Because every time I say something, you are there. Maybe this is some advice that applies.ACTS 5:38-39
“And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do not meddle with these men, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.””Quote But if you continue to knock on doors you may gain the odd convert, such as a little old lady who needs help with the gardening.
You are confused in the extreme. And this statement is false. First, you try to insinute that JW's tithe (A BELIEF THAT IS COMPLETELY FALSE IN EVERY WAY) and now you move on to try to convice people falsely that we try to convert little old ladies.Aren't you ashamed of such dishonorable tactics?
Speak the truth, man.
Quote What they really need is the gospel and love and support. But most denominations do not serve for free, they usually recoup the cost and make a profit from the converted every Saturday or Sunday.
No argument there. I have acknowledged this about 10 times, every time I see you mention it. It is horrible, a terrible thing. Babylon the Great deserves everything it will get. As I've already said, the Catholic church went to my Grandma a couple years before she died, and expunged much money from her, something that my dad, (A Catholic) truly hated.
Perhaps you've noticed that JW's don't follow the norm in many respects. This is one of them.
I repeat this once more. Remember that guy, “quitarguingoverstupidstuff.” Remember how he tended to tell the truth, even when it was extremely personal and beyond what we needed to hear? Well, he said that in the 10 years he was with the congregation, he didn't contribute money ONCE!
Did you get that? Did you hear what he said? Do you understand now?Quote I totally believe that pretending to be the complete or true Body of Christ is a gross sin. Who are you to say that this denomination is the right one, or the best one, or the closest one.
Who am I? Someone who loves truth. This is why it so upsets me when you repeatedly try to create false impressions about JW's. This is why you end up saying: “really trying hard to preach about Jehovah Witnesses” because I have to defend the truth.Quote If you are a JW and you have been institutionalised and deep down you desire to be free and search the things of God out rather than have them dictated to you, then some people who visit this website will be there to help. We are not after your money, membership, or any such thing.
SATAN is not after your money either. But he sure likes to mislead.
If you are a JW, you will no doubt see past the lies.
Quote We only want to help and encourage your hunger for truth.
How I wished that were true.Wickipedia says that “The Watchtower is an illustrated religious magazine printed and published by Jehovah's Witnesses.”
I don't think anyone here contends that this magazine is the body of Christ.
Hi david,
Neither is the JW denomination.
Would all the members of the body be evangelists and none healers, none with tongues, none with discernment of spirits, none with miraculous gifts?Quote (david @ Feb. 28 2007,04:55) T 8 : Quote david I can see that you are really trying hard to preach about Jehovah Witnesses
If you think this is me trying really hard, you don't know me in the slightest.I am not trying to “preach” about JW's at all, but rather, this began with me finally getting annoyed at your connecting “tithing” with “JW's” and what you call other “denominations and cults” for the fifth time in the past year.
I'm trying to set matters straight. I only wanted you to acknowledge or understand that we don't tithe, so you could stop implying it. For some reason, instead of doing this, you made it your quest to try to somehow prove yourself right. We don't tithe. We follow the example set out by the early Christians.Quote You do not promote unity in the Body of Christ.
I DON'T NEED TO PROMOTE IT. You feel you need to promote it. BUT HERE'S THE CRAZY THING. The body of Christ is not divided. THerefore, it does not need promoting. You are trying to tie together all forms of false Christianity, and you call this unity.
THERE IS NOOOO NEEEDDD TO PROMOTE UNITY WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you feel you are divided with the body of Christ, perhaps you are not in it.
The body of Christ is not divided. Can I say that again? The body of Christ is not divided. Well, it is divided from false Christians. Jesus did come to divede people, as the scripture says. He didn't come to unite mankind, or form some universal (Catholic) religion. I'll say this once more: The Body Of Christ Is Not Divided! Not with itself.
I do not need to do what you consider to be 'promoting' unity among the body of Christ. The Body of Christ (the Anointed;Bride of Christ; Brothers of Christ, Chosen Ones; Holy Ones; Elect; Holy Nation; Israel of God; Kingdom Class; Little Flock; New Creation; New Nation; Royal House; Royal Priesthood; Sanctuary Class; Spirit Begotten; Spiritual Israel; Spiritual Sons) or any other name you want to give them–THEY ARE THE MOST UNITED GROUP ON THE PLANET !Quote Worse than that, you actually make it harder for people to believe and see Christ, because you make a mockery his Body by pretending that the Body of Christ renamed itself 200 or so years ago to “The Jehovah Witnesses”
I somehow doubt very greatly you, who believe the body of Christ is divided ? ? ? are in any position to judge me in this respect.Quote Of course you cannot pull that one over me, and I don't know if you will convince many (if any) who come here.
Perhaps you've noticed that I really only have these conversations when you speak. And it is because you speak against the body, that I have to defend it. You accuse it of being divided, confused, bickering, set of people who can't agree on love, or anything, really, other than the fact that “Jesus saves.” I feel I must defend it. I'm sorry, but you have been mislead. The body of Christ is not divided among itself.Quote
Of course you cannot pull that one over me, and I don't know if you will convince many (if any) who come here.
I don't expect to convince any. Yet, you must. Because every time I say something, you are there. Maybe this is some advice that applies.ACTS 5:38-39
“And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do not meddle with these men, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them;) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God.””Quote But if you continue to knock on doors you may gain the odd convert, such as a little old lady who needs help with the gardening.
You are confused in the extreme. And this statement is false. First, you try to insinute that JW's tithe (A BELIEF THAT IS COMPLETELY FALSE IN EVERY WAY) and now you move on to try to convice people falsely that we try to convert little old ladies.Aren't you ashamed of such dishonorable tactics?
Speak the truth, man.
Quote What they really need is the gospel and love and support. But most denominations do not serve for free, they usually recoup the cost and make a profit from the converted every Saturday or Sunday.
No argument there. I have acknowledged this about 10 times, every time I see you mention it. It is horrible, a terrible thing. Babylon the Great deserves everything it will get. As I've already said, the Catholic church went to my Grandma a couple years before she died, and expunged much money from her, something that my dad, (A Catholic) truly hated.
Perhaps you've noticed that JW's don't follow the norm in many respects. This is one of them.
I repeat this once more. Remember that guy, “quitarguingoverstupidstuff.” Remember how he tended to tell the truth, even when it was extremely personal and beyond what we needed to hear? Well, he said that in the 10 years he was with the congregation, he didn't contribute money ONCE!
Did you get that? Did you hear what he said? Do you understand now?Quote I totally believe that pretending to be the complete or true Body of Christ is a gross sin. Who are you to say that this denomination is the right one, or the best one, or the closest one.
Who am I? Someone who loves truth. This is why it so upsets me when you repeatedly try to create false impressions about JW's. This is why you end up saying: “really trying hard to preach about Jehovah Witnesses” because I have to defend the truth.Quote If you are a JW and you have been institutionalised and deep down you desire to be free and search the things of God out rather than have them dictated to you, then some people who visit this website will be there to help. We are not after your money, membership, or any such thing.
SATAN is not aft
er your money either. But he sure likes to mislead.If you are a JW, you will no doubt see past the lies.
Quote We only want to help and encourage your hunger for truth.
How I wished that were true.
Here I disagree with you David. The Body of Christ is suppost to be in unity just as the Father and Son are.The dividing that Jesus brought was the dividing of believers from the world and the wicked people in it.
I know you understand that because one of the things I give the JW's credit for, as far as I understand their teaching on the matter, is their proper teaching on being seperate from the world. Being citizens of the Kingdom of God. Not being yoked with a hybrid two Kingdom form of Christianity.
One thing I think is a bit off on these forums is that many place such a huge emphasis on having the proper “knowledge” of the truth.
Don't misunderstand, I think truth is upmost importance, however, I do not believe that one must be perfect in knowledge to please God or to obtain salvation. The Gnostics taught that. We are to strive towards perfection in living untainted by the world and loving one another.
I believe a much greater emphasis by scriptures and the teachings of Christ is placed on what type of person you are renewed and transformed into by truly regenerating and being transformed by putting on the new man with Christ in you.
When standing before the judgement throne of God we will be judged by our deeds. The love we showed towards others. How we cared for the sick and needy and how we loved both the Son and the Father and abided in them by obeying them with our daily lives, yes the commandments as more narrowly illustrated by Christ.
God is not going to say “Depart from me ye confused and misunderstanding heretic. Ye did not properly understand the teachings on tithing, nor exactly how the Father and Son or one, nor on end times prophecy.”
Our hearts, gentlemen, had better be like children's.
Not our minds like venerable scholars.
Hi MS,
Good points.
But a certain knowledge is essential.
Many come here having not even established Who God is, so they should not be surprised they cannot relate to their human fabricated trinity god, because that is not Who God is.
JWs do understand Who God is but do not understand that they must be rebiorn into the Son to be able to relate to Him.
It is all about coming into a loving relationship with God Who is love.Quote (david @ Mar. 01 2007,02:45) Wickipedia says that “The Watchtower is an illustrated religious magazine printed and published by Jehovah's Witnesses.” I don't think anyone here contends that this magazine is the body of Christ.
The Watchtower is suppose to be prophetic and it puts its findings out in magazine format.Or are you saying that it is NOT a prophetic ministry?
Quote (david @ Feb. 28 2007,23:55) I am not trying to “preach” about JW's at all, but rather, this began with me finally getting annoyed at your connecting “tithing” with “JW's” and what you call other “denominations and cults” for the fifth time in the past year.
I'm trying to set matters straight. I only wanted you to acknowledge or understand that we don't tithe, so you could stop implying it. For some reason, instead of doing this, you made it your quest to try to somehow prove yourself right. We don't tithe. We follow the example set out by the early Christians.
To david.If you came here in the name of Jesus and not the name of the Jehovah Witnesses, then you would be serving the body by encouraging, teaching, learning, exhorting, and discovering. Instead you spend your time defending a man-made organisation called the JWs.
We don't have to defend any organisation. We defend the truth and use scripture as the template.
We are not perfect, but people here should at least see that denominations are not only division makers, but they are complete time wasters too.
Works not commissioned by God are not only done in vain, but they eat up valuable time in your life that you can never recoup.
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