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Quote It is written that the Spirit no longer does works of power?
No, it is not. In fact, the spirit is working in people to produce great works of power.ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote O so what happened then was just for that time?
What does the scripture say that I quoted? When the Christians first arrived, the Jews had been God's people for quite some time. Something was needed to “verify” as the scripture says the shift in favor.
This is what the Bible says the miracles accomplished.
Would this need to be accomplished over and over again?Quote It is written to avoid those who offer powerless religion. /QUOTE]
Ok.Did the Spirit of God lose that power shown in men in the first days of christianity?
Along with “power” God also has wisdom. Do we know why those “signs as well as portents and various powerful works” occured? Oh right. The scripture says that it “verified” something. Did this needlessly need to be verified over and over and over again?HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2007,01:32) Quote It is written that the Spirit no longer does works of power?
No, it is not. In fact, the spirit is working in people to produce great works of power.ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote O so what happened then was just for that time?
What does the scripture say that I quoted? When the Christians first arrived, the Jews had been God's people for quite some time. Something was needed to “verify” as the scripture says the shift in favor.
This is what the Bible says the miracles accomplished.
Would this need to be accomplished over and over again?Quote It is written to avoid those who offer powerless religion. /QUOTE]
Ok.Did the Spirit of God lose that power shown in men in the first days of christianity?
Along with “power” God also has wisdom. Do we know why those “signs as well as portents and various powerful works” occured? Oh right. The scripture says that it “verified” something. Did this needlessly need to be verified over and over and over again?
Hi david,
Just for a time you say but cannot find it written?It suits the religions of men that the wind of the Spirit does not interfere with their business.
Imagine if God was allowed to direct their work and they were controlled by His Spirit how much more effective they would be.
Quote Hi david,
Just for a time you say but cannot find it written?
Quote please.(I'm sorry. I'm just being Nick-like, and since you accused me of saying something that isn't written, I'd like you to quote where I actually said that, just for fun.)
Hi david,
You have not shown the Spirit is now impotent.
The Spirit is a spirit of power and promised to all.Acts 2
” 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. “
God does not restrict that expression of power now only to the JWs and their evangelisation.
Quote You have not shown the Spirit is now impotent. No I haven't. Why would I? It's not “impotent.”
Nick, you have not stated what the word “verified” means.
Quote Acts 2
” 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. “
ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”Hi david
” Did this needlessly need to be verified over and over and over again? “Logic has nothing to do with it though you constantly appeal to it regarding the work of God. The apostles were not just used so that some evidence of the reality of God could be written about and then the powers withdrawn. The Spirit of God is among us and His nature has never changed so the only limitation placed on power expressed is the absence of available vessels and the control of men.
Hi david,
Do you say that because you doorknock
and God's Spirit helps people be the witnesses of God
then that proves the JWs have the Spirit of God?It is unlikely to be true.
The guards at the foot of the cross told the world Jesus was the Son of God too.
Quote Logic has nothing to do with it –Nick.
Well, not for those who prefer to go with there feelings or distort truth to fit their traditions.
But I was trying to explain to you what the word “verify” means.
You argue: Logic has nothing to do with it.
Fine, continue to use the opposite of logic to explain your beliefs.
But I asked you this question: What does the word “verify” mean?
HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”Hi david,
And those signs can still bear witness to the reality of God
and should be expected by those who work in His will.Quote Hi david,
Do you say that because you doorknock and God's Spirit helps people be the witnesses of God then that proves the JWs have the Spirit of God?
It is unlikely to be true.Hello Nick. Hi. How are you? Ok, now that I have your attention, what does this scripture say:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Nick, I've talked with a guy named Norman. He lived in the basement of a house. The only thing in that basement was two chairs, literally and a Bible. All this guy did was read the Bible, all the time. Every time I brought up a scripture, he knew which one it was. So he was…zealous. He said that he tried to go from door to door, but he couldn't. It was too hard. It is hard, isn't it Nick? Have you ever tried it? Anyway, he gave up. He was a “born again” who tried to teach me the trinity. But he didn't have the holy spirit that is required to carry out the commision Jesus gave. (Mat 28:19,20) He didn't last very long.
The Catholic church also tried to go from door to door, like the early disciples did. How do you think that went over? How long to you think that lasted?
And yes, some of the Mormon's (about 50,000 of the 12 million?) do go from door to door for about 2 years of their life. I think this is why we are so often compared to them. But…only 1 in about 240 (if my math is right) actually engage in this work, and for 2 years of their life.Nick, you asked:
Quote Do you say that because you doorknock and God's Spirit helps people be the witnesses of God then that proves the JWs have the Spirit of God?
Nick, what I am saying is that no other group on the planet is unitedly preaching the good news in all the nations in the way that Jehovah's Witnesses are, in the way the early Christians did.Quote And those signs can still bear witness to the reality of God
and should be expected by those who work in His will.Nick, why do you continute to ignore this scripture? You haven't even commented on it. Why?
HEBREWS 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through [our] Lord and wasverified
for us by those who heard him, while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”
It's almost like you're blind to this scripture.
Quote So the JWs are empowered by the Spirit of God because they doorknock?
No. But because they have God's spirit, they can accomplish this great work that was fortold by Jesus. (mat 24:14)Hi david,
So when do they receive the Spirit of God and what evidence does the Spirit show you of that event?Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2007,18:04) Quote Posted: Feb. 21 2007,04:32 QUOTE
Quote (david @ Feb. 15 2007,20:43)
T8, while you seem to be on this forum at present, I was wondering if you believ that JW's tithe.
Because we don't. In any way. In the least.Quitargueingoverstupidstuff (Matthew) mentioned that while he was a Witness, he never contributed at all, in a monetary way. That is how it is. There is NO FORCED GIVING in any way, to any degree, at all.
I mention this because several times while explaining the errors of JW's you have mentioned tithing. You haven't directly said: JW's tithe. But you have linked the two several times. Can you acknowledge that I'm telling you this, by responding?
david.
Most or at least many denominations and cults tithe. Others are still very interested in your money and have other systems of extracting your money to run their operations.
But it is better to give to those in need.
Jesus never taught us to tithe or fund denominations and cults. He taught us to give to those in need.
So T8, does this mean you will stop implying that JW's tithe?
To david.Well it would be correct that JWs themselves fund the JW organisation and perhaps investments that JWs have made in business around the world. Whether JWs give a tenth, twentieth, or half their income it doesn't matter. They give to a man-made organisation that only helps to confuse people who are looking for the truth, because those who claim to have the truth belong to such sects and the world is confused as to the right one. In fact it is even worse than that. They do not believe any of you.
This is the point. Most cults and denominations promote a tithing system, but others have a system of giving whatever. I have seen both. But we all know that they teach you should give (which is right) but they are talking about giving to them.
Jesus said that when his people were one, that the world would believe that God sent him. You know what, that would include the Jews too probably.
But you and millions if not billions of people spread confusion by uniting under men and men's works.
But if you had the spirit of God you would be part of God's church and you should be a part of that body.
But I take it that you are saying that you are not part of the body, but that you are a JW first and foremost and that you cannot have unity with the body because you are a JW.
When I was studying with the JW's (my aunty took me along with her) we were studying Revelations. A blue Hardcover book. If I wanted one(book) I had to pay $16 for it at the time. That was ok. When I stopped going to meetings, a few months later my aunty said they knew I had a book and asked if I could give it back to them so they could give it to someone else. I said NO because I paid for it. But my aunty said that Im not with the JW's anymore so I wont need it. Anyway, she gave me $16 so that I would give the book. But she was expecting me to give it without any exchange for money. Which now that Im older I understand the word “giving”. But still…. JW's do have their ways
This was like 20 years ago I think. I was young.
Now I wish I still had that book so that I could read it again.
Quote Well it would be correct that JWs themselves fund the JW organisation and perhaps investments that JWs have made in business around the world. Whether JWs give a tenth, twentieth, or half their income it doesn't matter. They give to a man-made organisation that only helps to confuse people who are looking for the truth, because those who claim to have the truth belong to such sects and the world is confused as to the right one. In fact it is even worse than that. They do not believe any of you. This is the point. Most cults and denominations promote a tithing system, but others have a system of giving whatever. I have seen both. But we all know that they teach you should give (which is right) but they are talking about giving to them.
Jesus said that when his people were one, that the world would believe that God sent him. You know what, that would include the Jews too probably.
But you and millions if not billions of people spread confusion by uniting under men and men's works.
But if you had the spirit of God you would be part of God's church and you should be a part of that body.
But I take it that you are saying that you are not part of the body, but that you are a JW first and foremost and that you cannot have unity with the body because you are a JW.
Hi T8. Most of what you assume and say is wrong.
As well, you seem to desparately want to believe that JW's tithe. I asked if you'd stop expressing the false belief that JW's tithe. You have yet to answer this question.
Does that mean you are going to continue to spread false beliefs?Here is what the word “tithe” means:
Contribution of a tenth of one's income for religious purposes. The practice of tithing was established in the Hebrew scriptures and was adopted by the Western Christian church. It was enjoined by eccesiastical law from the 6th century and enforced in Europe by secular law from the 8th century. After the Reformation, tithes continued to be imposed for the benefit of both the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches. Tithes were eventually repealed in France (1789), Ireland (1871), Italy (1887), and England (1936). In Germany support for churches is collected through the personal income tax and distributed according to the individual's religious affiliation. Tithing was never part of U.S. law, but members of certain churches (e.g., the Mormons) are required to tithe, and members of other churches may tithe voluntarily. Tithing was never accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches.–Britannica
Jehovah's Witnesses do not tithe. We follow the example of the earliest Christians. T8 does not follow their example. In fact, he cannot.
“Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)
Jesus had commissioned his disciples ‘to be witnesses to the most distant part of the earth.’ (Acts 1:8) As the number of believers grew, so did the need for Christian teachers and overseers to visit and strengthen the congregations. Widows, orphans, and other needy ones had to be cared for at times. . How did the first-century Christians cover the costs involved?
About 55 C.E., an appeal went out to Gentile Christians in Europe and Asia Minor in behalf of the impoverished congregation in Judea.
In his letters to the congregation in Corinth, the apostle Paul describes how this ‘collection for the holy ones’ was organized. (1 Corinthians 16:1) You T8, may be surprised at what Paul’s words reveal about Christian giving.The apostle Paul did not force fellow believers to give. In fact, Macedonian Christians who were “under affliction” and in “deep poverty” had to ‘keep begging him with much entreaty for the privilege of kindly giving and for a share in the ministry destined for the holy ones.’—2 Corinthians 8:1-4.
Rather than specifying an amount or a percentage, Paul merely suggested that “on the first day of every week, each one . . . should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income.” (1 Corinthians 16:2, NIV)
By planning and reserving an amount on a regular basis, the Corinthians would not feel pressured into giving begrudgingly or on emotional impulse when Paul arrived. For each Christian, the decision of how much to give was to be a private matter, one that ‘he had resolved in his own heart.’—2 Corinthians 9:5, 7.
It is significant that Paul supervised a ‘collection for the holy ones’ who were in need. We do not read in the Scriptures about Paul or the other apostles organizing collections or receiving tithes to finance their own ministries. (Acts 3:6) Always grateful to receive the gifts that the congregations sent him, Paul conscientiously avoided imposing “an expensive burden” on his brothers.—1 Thessalonians 2:9; Philippians 4:15-18.
Jesus fortold the greatest preaching work in history for our time:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Jehovah's Witnesses today follow the principles set out by the early Christians and God's inspired word. We do not do so for monetary gain. Any who wish to volunteer money to the worldwide work or to a certain aspect of this work, may do so.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not tithe. Now that you understand and know this T8, I will start to use the word “lie” if you suggest this any more times.
david
Quote If I wanted one(book) I had to pay $16 for it at the time.
the “time” that you refer to is probably 20-25 years ago.Here's the thing. You were dealing with your aunty, a family member. If anyone who wasn't a family member was dealing with you, they wouldn't have been doing what she did. Family can get away with certain things.
Quote Anyway, she gave me $16 so that I would give the book. But she was expecting me to give it without any exchange for money. Which now that Im older I understand the word “giving”. But still…. JW's do have their ways This was like 20 years ago I think. I was young.
Now I wish I still had that book so that I could read it again.
Quote JW's do have their ways
I don't know about the ways that you and your aunty interacted at that time. What I do know is that today, if you asked for that book, or any book, or anything, no money would be exchanged or requested. Nothing. If you wanted to you could contribute a donation at any time, or not. There is no forced giving of any kind to any degree.Out of curiosity, do you know the name of the book?
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