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Hey Nick,
Seems like you've been around the block a few times yourself! That's great because you have insight on what different groups believe and how close they come to or stray from the Bible.
It's interesting that many Catholics have gone to the AOG. What I like about the AOG is full body worship and prayer. I admire them for that and really their worship services are the one reason why I still serve there.
I just know that I can not minister with them if they are going to pray to Jesus as “Father God” even though their own beliefs say he is to be called the Lord Jesus and not the Father. That's why I've decided to put my focus on my own ministry because I can only be responsible for what I teach.
My pastoring is very much needed by the people I serve and I'm blessed even more when I'm engaged in that, more so than sitting in the pews at church.You are right about some of the “characters” the AOG thinks are great are simply showmen! Another one they like but are somewhat ashamed of because he is so off the wall is Benny Hinn. He says the trinity is really 9 beings because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all are trinities within themselves! Hey, its no whackier than the standard trinity doctrine.
They also seem to be a little too concerned about casting out demons, binding and loosing. However, there is one guy who was showing demonic possession in one of the classes and they
were not taking him seriously. This man has gotten worse as are his angry outbursts in class have increased. I've decided it is not worth it because I'll probably end up decking him if he gets in my face the way he does the instructor.I'm weighing things out all the time Nick. God is telling me it's time to move on to my own ministry full time. I love them but I love God and His Son even more. All the same, God used those people to bless me and to prepare me more fully for the ministry He has given me. He has used YOU to help me focus on what is really important and I thank God I found this place. Amazing. God, I thank You for giving me another chance to serve you!
Semmy
Hey,
I was with the AOG until they started with the prosperity message. I can remember they actually said that when “confessing something you want” you should be specific.
In other words if you confess a car say “thank you Jesus for my “new red convertible v8 with an eight speaker stero etc” otherwise God may give you an ordinary car! I stood up and said yeah God forbid you should want what God has for you! Oh they said I didn't understand. I said yeah and neither did the apostles. And that was that! GONE OUT OF THERE!
That's when I decided to let the Holy Spirit teach me.BUT they did have powerful worship services.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.Did you ever notice that Satan's church has their own book.
The Catholics –Their Catechism
The Latter Day Saints–The book of Mormon
The Jehovah Witnesses–New World TranslationHi kenrch,
It is a temptation for the insecure to to obey a strict religion's rules and think they must be serving God.
It is equally satisfying, I am sure, for their rulers to be able to limit the freedoms and behaviours of their subjects and thus maintain control.
But it is all vanity and folly.Quote Did you ever notice that Satan's church has their own book.
The Catholics –Their Catechism
The Latter Day Saints–The book of Mormon
The Jehovah Witnesses–New World TranslationSo, Kenrch, you're calling the NWT Bible…..Satan's book?
Quote I'm not sure but I believe David left after I posted intimate details about what really goes on
within the JW world. I haven't seen him post anything since, so you may just be talking among yourselves at this point.
Semm is of course wrong. I've posted a few times in the past couple of days.Hi T8.
You write:Quote The first century believers were called Christians. There wasn't this division where some were
called Christians and another bunch called say Aliens or WJs or Mentalcostals.
Right, there was one united group of true believers.Quote There were just 2 groups. The second group is the world and some of that second group pretended to be in the first.
Yes, the apostasy, as fortold.Quote Now fast forward a couple of millenia and we probably have a couple of million denominations. Who knows how many?
No question, Satan’s good at what he does.Quote But the truth is that there are just 2 groups, (I guess 3 as I should include the Jews, and perhaps more if we include 144000 etc). But for gentiles who have been saved by grace, lets look at the 2 groups we can choose to belong. The Church or the world.
Since many persons think of a church as a building for religious services rather than a congregation engaging in worship, the rendering “church” can be misleading. I prefer “congregation.” (Hebrew qa·haĺ, Greek Ek·kle·sía) And I again agree: We must choose God’s congregation or the world. We can’t choose both, as some try to.Quote So where do the JWs fit into that. Are they the whole Church, or the World? 1) If you say the whole Church, you are wrong.
2) If you say part of the Church, you may be wrong too, if the JWs claim exclusivity. Do they?
We believe as the early Christians did. Remember, as you said, with the early Christians there wasn’t division. They were united in pure worship. And it is either God’s congregation or the world. We claim what the early Christians claimed. Were they wrong in making such claims?Quote 3) The world is where I put this organisation. But I also believe that there are members in that organisation that are in the Church too. In other words I think there are true believers or children of God probably in many perhaps, most denominations and other bodies. That is why we are told to come out of Babylon.
Wouldn’t the “true believers” be the ones that “come out of Babylon,” and hence, not remain members in false religion? Wouldn’t “true believers” believe truth? How can one be a true believer and believe in the trinity and another be a true believer and not? One of them does not believe the truth. One of them would have to be wrong. When their eyes are opened, and they are shown the truth, they would have to come out of their babylonish beliefs and become a part of God’s Church or congregation to be accepted by God. Yes?
We are known for being distinct and separate and at odds with the world.Quote But nothing has really changed. There is still the Church and the World. The world pretends to be the church at times and the church acts like the world at times. That is unfortunate, but it is reality. But that blurring of the groups doesn't change the truth that there is the Church and the World.
Ya.dave
OK David, so we are in agreement in many things that I posted. That is good.
What about this:
You say that the JWs are seperate to Babylon and the World.
So which of these if statements do you agree with, if any?
1) The Church/Body of Christ is exclusively the JWs organisation.
All other so-called christian organisations are part of Babylon. The JWs, Watchtower government, and members of this church are not part of Babylon.2) The Church/Body of Christ is the Roman Catholic Church. It's leader the Pope is the vicar on earth of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Pope can rewrite or add doctrine as he is infallible.
3) The Church/Body of Christ is made up of believers from most places in the world that belong to God and have his spirit. They may or may not attend different denominations, but they are one in God and his Christ. Some of these members (living stones) are even caught up in Babylon, but God desires for them to come out of her and be free, so that they may not partake in her judgment. The Church is invisible in that it is not an organisation like the JWs or Catholics with a name of their own, but it's head is Christ and he builds the Church which is his body.
I personally choose the third one. I think the first explanation and second explantions are from the flesh nature. They are explantions that carnal men believe. The third option is more likely to be understood by those who understand spirtual things. They see that God's Kingdom is not of this world, that it is not run like organisations of this world.
Again, which of the 3 statements do you agree with, or do you disagree with all 3 of them?
Hey David,
Yeah, maybe you posted in the last couple of days after being “gone” for almost a month after my expose. Well if you were so “present”, why did your email address bounce and why didn't
you specifically respond to anything I wrote about the JW's?Just seems to me that you've waited for the heat to blow over so that you could
redirect the conversation and not have to address those issues.
You're happy to say I am wrong that you haven't left but what I said is the TRUTH about the JW's organization.As for the NWT, I will never read ANY Bible that does not specifically list the editors names
and their educational credentials. Donald Duck could have written it as far as I know.
For example, Franz claimed to know Biblical languages but when pressed to prove it, failed the test while in Germany.
Sorry but time and time again your group's founders and leaders have proven to be chalatans and
liars. Then they say it's o.k. because its all part of “theocratic warfare”. Yeah right. Where is that in the Bible? Peter LIED and said he didn't know Christ just to save himself. His own conscience condemned him and he repented. That is a proof that “theocratic warfare”, aka lying to aviod persecution is condemned in the Bible. Jesus told his people to flee when persecuted, not lie their way out of a situation.So you think it is perfectly fine to lie to people whom you witness to because they are not “entitled to know the truth”? A lie is only a lie if that person is entitled to know the truth? Well, WHO determines THAT? You? This crosses over into your publications and study aids as well. Lying is fine if it protects Jehovah's organization! Get real.
These are the types of people who edited the NWT so IT IS Satan's book. The Lord Jesus said the
same of those who are disposed as their father. Satan is the father of lie.See these are real issues you DON'T want to discuss and since your policy on lying is as it is,
don't expect people here to put much faith in anything you have to say. Maybe in YOUR mind, we are not entitled to know the truth either.Semmy
Ken,
Trust me, you are doing WAY better than most! What shocked me is
that the Catholic Church even changed the 10 Commandments! #2
is missing because it condemns forming and bowing down to idols. They
split one of the other commandments into two to complete the ten.
Like the JW's, if you are never allowed to read any other Christian group's
writings, you would never know you'd been deceived.The Mormons are just whacky but another group that was founded on
a new revelation of lies by Smith. The story is so loopy and full of
contradictions, that it HAS to be from Satan. For instance he claimed
Christ preached in North America to the Native Americans and the race
of people who were here had all of these coins minted such as the mina.
Truth is NO evidence of any such civilization has every been discovered
even though all of the civilizations of the Bible which are MUCH older have
been through archeology.The JW's don't even use the Bible, (even their own), very much. I believe the calculations
were that for every 2,000 pages of their own publications they are required to read,
(Witchtower, Theocratic Ministry, book study books, etc.) they only read about 200
verses from the Bible itself. That is a BIG proportional difference. We were kept so busy
reading all their publications that I never had the chance to read through their NWT even
once. Sad.However once I go hold of a readable Bible, things became crystal clear.
I didn't really expect anything from the AOG either. What you were talking about
is the “name it claim it” nonsense which sounds more like saying some lucky incantation
instead of praying for GOD's WILL in your life. I agree with what you said to them 100%.
I've seen other groups use similar versions of this as well.Even so, God sees your heart and He will use even groups like these to either teach you
something or to bless you. However, it is GOD doing it, not them.God bless and keep you!
Semmy
How many times has semmy quoted from the Bible so far? Like, zero?
“expose”? That's hillarious.
Quote Well if you were so “present”, why did your email address bounce and why didn't you specifically respond to anything I wrote about the JW's?
Just maybe I stopped using that email address a year ago, and it expired, and just maybe most everything you said was so ridiculously slanderously twistedly wrong, that to acknowledge what you said would be like dignifying it. It’s not really worth it.Quote Just seems to me that you've waited for the heat to blow over so that you could
redirect the conversation and not have to address those issues.
Again, wrong. The moment I saw what you wrote, I addressed them. But then I didn’t actually make that post, for the above reason. It turns out you are blatantly wrong 80% of the time, mostly wrong 10% of the time, and only some wrong the other 10% of the time. It was that last 10% that I had some difficulty with–the times when you actually mixed some truth with what you said.On what S said previously in another thread, I will address this post to t8, as he responded to this person’s slander by saying: ‘It needed to be said,’ as though what he said were true. I think I am done with S. He seems to only have slander. I prefer to discuss scripture. He also seems to name call, make fun of, etc, iin an attempt to show himself right. Is that what Jesus taught? Where are the scriptures?
First, obviously, those who are honest-hearted do not fall for cleverly produced propaganda; they seek the truth and listen to both sides of an issue before making a judgment. (Proverbs 18:13; John 7:51)
Secondly, I would like to say that the vast majority of his research, and I use that term very loosely, as much of it most likely comes from tabloid internet sites, is twisted. Yes, he knows a little more than the average person, especially when it comes to slander and what are the most common accusations against witnesses. But in view of what they said about Jesus (He has a demon, he’s a glutton, a drinker, he eats with tax collectors, etc) I would expect people who are scripturally knowledgeable to try a little harder to look beyond the half truths.
Quote With all due respect I've seen what JW's really use and read as far as Biblical texts as I have attended their meetings, conventions and even studied with them. We were told to use their anonymously edited New World Translation and the Watchtower magazine and nothing else. I would like a quote on this. Any quote will do, as long as it’s from JW’s saying to use “nothing else,” other than the New World Translation. I primarily do use the NWT on here, but without question, I have quoted from many different Bibles on here. (Has Semmy quoted from different Bibles on here?) T8, you’ve seen that. Do we use “nothing else” as he claimed? No. I’ve personally studied with many people and I (one of Jehovah’s Witnesses) have never told anyone this, nor has anyone I know. I don’t either remember ever hearing it. Of course, we do print our own Bibles. As Wickepedia says concerning the NWT: “This is the Bible translation primarily used by Jehovah's Witnesses.” In the past, we’ve printed a few different translations. I’m looking at an order form and besides the NWT, I see you can order the “Authorized Version,” the “American Standard Version” the “Emphatic Diaglott,” and there’s a column for “other Bibles.” I believe there’s a couple others that may still be available if they are still in stock.
Another interesting fact is that for the best part of a century, the Witnesses used primarily the King James Version, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, or whatever versions were available in their language.
It should also be mentioned that when studying with someone, we actually encourage them to use their own Bible. Maybe I’ll say that again. We actually encourage them to look up the scriptures in their own Bible, so they know what we say comes from the Bible, and to dismiss this thought of some that we have our own Bible. For a certainty, we will study with anyone and use whatever Bible they wish. For a certainty!
As for the NWT being anonymously produced, they are not the only Bible that has done this. One example: The jacket of the 1971 Reference Edition of the New American Standard Bible similarly stated: “We have not used any scholar’s name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God’s Word should stand on its merits.” The translation committee of the NWT are not seeking prominence or desiring to draw attention to themselves. In the spirit of ‘doing all things for God’s glory,’ they wanted the reader to base his faith on God’s Word, not on their worldly “qualifications.” (1 Cor. 10:31) A close examination of their work should direct the reader, not to the translators, but to the Bible’s Author, Jehovah God.
As well, if you’d like to see a defence of the NWT, you may go to:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/home.htmQuote I have NEVER seen or heard them recommend any other Bible or study aids other than their own nor have I seen any other Bible other than theirs at their meetings and I've been to them all.
I’ve already talked about the Bible. If we make or print other Bibles, does not that mean that we “recommend” them? For the study aids, whose study aids shall we “recommend”? Catholic study aids? Mormon study aids? Charismatic study aids? Computer salesmen study aids? Interfaith is not something promoted by the Bible.
He’s been to “all the meetings?” What does that mean? He’s attended the five different meetings? Well so has Michael Jackson. But does he know anything? Perhaps you should go to the homes of these people you claim to know and check their library. You may be surprised. Yes, at our meetings, we use the NWT. So when someone is giving a talk or discourse, we can easily follow along. We are not stumbling over “thou’s” and “thy’s” while they are speaking in modern English, for example. We are not following along and one person see “LORD” or “GOD” while the speaker reads a passage that contains God’s name. Unlike most of the world, we are united. True Christians would be, wouldn’t they? Wouldn’t they?Quote As someone said, the problem with that is when someone claims special revelation, also known as “pontification”, and gathers people based on that, you have the start of a cult.
Did Jesus have a cult then? I guess he must have. Um? It both tickles and bothers me when people who don’t own dictionaries try to label Jehovah’s Witnesses as a cult in an effort to scare the uninformed. And that’s really what these twisted thoughts are designed to do–n
othing else.
So, hmmm. I wonder which mind control techniques they used on S? What methods of brainwashing do JW’s apply?
A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasizes devotion according to prescribed ritual. Many cults follow a living human leader, and often their adherents live in groups apart from the rest of society. The standard for what is orthodox, however, should be God’s Word, and Jehovah’s Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people.
Jesus Christ was accused of being a drunkard, a glutton, a Sabbath breaker, a false witness, a blasphemer of God, and a messenger of Satan. He was also accused of being subversive.—Matthew 9:34; 11:19; 12:24; 26:65; John 8:13; 9:16; 19:12.
After Jesus’ death and resurrection, his disciples were likewise the target of serious accusations. One group of first-century Christians were dragged to the city rulers by people crying out: ‘These men have overturned the inhabited earth.’ (Acts 17:6) On another occasion the apostle Paul and his companion Silas were taken to the authorities and charged with greatly disturbing the city of Philippi.—Acts 16:20.
Paul was later accused of being a “pestilent fellow and stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth” and of trying “to profane the temple.” (Acts 24:5, 6) The principal men of the Jews in Rome accurately described the situation of Jesus’ followers when they acknowledged:
“For truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”—Acts 28:22.
Evidently, this new group established by Jesus Christ was considered by some to be a religious group with radical views and practices that clashed with what was accepted in those days as normal social behavior. Undoubtedly, many today would have considered the Christians a destructive cult. THE FACT THAT PEOPLE SAID THESE THINGS ABOUT JESUS DID NOT MAKE THEM TRUE.
S would not have done well in that time. After all, the early Christians made special claims–they knew the truth, they represented God, if you wanted to serve God acceptably, you had to leave your old religion and join God’s people. Were Jesus followers wrong to make these claims?
We do not “gather” people based on the idea that we have some special revelation. We don’t say: “We’re God’s people, so don’t ask questions and follow us.” To think that would be ridiculous.
I kind of get the feeling if S had been living in the first century, he would have at first looked into that “Christian” thing, done some “research” and “discovered” that Jesus was a drunkard, a glutton, a Sabbath breaker, a false witness, a blasphemer of God, and a subversive messenger of Satan. And he wouldn’t have dug any deeper.
Over 1 billion Catholics feel that their salvation depends on the pope, as Christ’s earthly representative. If a cult is a religious body with a man as it’s head, then every religion can be accused of being a cult, or at one time was a cult. Just because there are men, does not mean they are the true head. There were men in the apostles day, as well. They were men, weren’t they?Quote The only thing I would recommend is reading the early inane ramblings of their founder, Charles Taze Russel whom no JW wants to talk about today.
Before I say anything, I’ll say this:
“For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measuring stick you measure, it shall be measured to you the same.” (Matthew 7:2-5)
“The spirit of a presentation tends to prove a person's true heart and character. Though personally and unjustly attacked on many occasions because of his stand for truth, Pastor Russell never once attacked individuals, but only addressed doctrines, principles, offices and institutions.” http://Www.pastor-russell.com
Why the attacks? First, he was someone very well known, and he was having an influence that many didn’t like.
“His death was a major front-page headline in many newspapers across the globe.”–WICKIPEDIA.com
“Charles Taze Russell, (February 16, 1852 – October 31, 1916), better known as Pastor Russell, a Protestant minister in the tradition of Reformation leaders such as Martin Luther, John Wesley and William Miller, was one of the most widely recognized and traveled ministers of the early 20th century. . . .In the year 1908, his books were officially recognized as the third most distributed texts on earth, surpassed only by the Chinese Almanac, and the Holy Bible. Having been both highly praised, and intensely criticized throughout his public ministry his writings and views are documented to have influenced all spheres of modern Protestantism and Western culture. . . .These books proved to be the first detailed textbooks to outline the entire Bible completely free of the Roman creeds and traditions. The first volume was originally entitled “The Plan of the Ages”, later renamed “The Divine Plan of the Ages”. It remains to this day one of the most widely distributed expositions of the Bible, published worldwide in nearly twenty languages. Its premise and style has often been mimicked, copied and plagiarized in different ways by several Protestant ministers and organizations over the decades. Many modern Evangelical preachers still follow the outline found in the book. . . .These newspaper sermons were syndicated all over the world and eventually reached an estimated readership of 15,000,000 people in the United States alone. By this time, Pastor Russell was one of the most recognizable ministers in the world. (comparable to the fame of Billy Graham in our day). . . .The view that the creeds were 'error', and that the Bible is best understood without them, was spread to every continent. This had not been seen since the beginning of the Reformation period when Martin Luther challenged the creeds of Rome. As a result, Russell had many critics. He was labeled a heretic, and eventually the separation from his wife was used to attack his morality, integrity, and convictions. . . .The criticisms he faced were a significant part of his place in Christian history. . . .The effect of Pastor Russell's studies and ministry can be seen in the change of doctrine throughout Protestantism since the early 20th century.”
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Charles_Taze_Russell
I quoted this only so that we all realize the impact he was having. If we can say anything about him, he stirred things up a great deal. And many many people in power didn’t like what he was saying. Remember too, that things were different back then. The Church had great power. It should be clear to all thinking people that anyone brave enough to take on the religious establishment will receive of their wrath, especially at that time. People were afraid of the Church. It had a lot of power back then–a lot. Charles Taze Russell took them on, revealing their deceptions to the world, and as expected, received their vile epithets, such as “heretic”, “cult leader”, “swindler”, “deceiver”.Quote Not to mention his standing on a bridge with his followers in the 1800's waiting for Christ to return based on his special revelation. When Christ did not show up as per his prediction he simply said the Lord had returned “invisibly” which is totally against what the Bible says Christ's second coming will be.
This, is the one thing he said that
seems to have some basis in reality–some.
Wickipedia says: “Barbour [who Charles Russel later parted ways with] introduced him to some new views that convinced Russell, amongst other things, the Rapture would occur in April 1878.
In April 1878, the Rapture did not occur as Russell, Barbour, and their associates had anticipated. According to the book Faith on the March, page 27, written by one of Russell's associates, A.H. Macmillan, “While talking with Russell about the events of 1878, I told him that Pittsburgh papers had reported he was on the Sixth Street bridge dressed in a white robe on the night of the Memorial of Christ's death, expecting to be taken to heaven together with many others. I asked him, “Is that correct?” Russell laughed heartily and said: “I was in bed that night between 10:30 and 11:00 P.M. However, some of the more radical ones might have been there, but I was not. Neither did I expect to be taken to heaven at that time, for I felt there was much work to be done preaching the Kingdom message to the peoples of the earth before the church would be taken away.””
Confused by what was perceived to be an error in calculation, Russell re-examined the doctrine to see if he could determine that it had Biblical origins, or if it was, in his view, simply Christian tradition. His conclusion that it is tradition led him to begin teaching, through the pages of the Herald, what he believed to have discovered on the subject. Barbour, however, highly embarrassed by the failure of their expectations, rejected Russell's explanation, and a debate ensued ….”
In the beginning, there was a great deal of “Christian tradition” as well as pagansims that had to be shed. That’s true.Quote Not to mention his mystic ties as a Free Mason.
I LOVE THIS ONE! Lying is wrong. And HE accuses us of lying? You know, I’ve come across this a few times. I actually did some research on it, not because I was researching Russel, but because I was researching free masons.
It’s not at all true in the slightest that he was free mason. What is absolutely true is that there are many who wanted to invalidate everything he said. It has been published that because “Bible students” have rented Masonic lodges, that they are somehow involved. But it is also true that they meet in schools. Are they teachers? They meet in YMCA’s. Are they athletic directors?
Anyway, here is where you can find some of what he actually said, if you care:
–June 1914 Convention discourse “The Temple of God” (“Convention Report Sermons pg 362)
–1908 Convention Question Meeting (“The Question Book” pg 318)
–1904 The New Creation pp 580-581
–1895; Zion’s Watch Tower June, 1985 pg 143Then there’s the supposed masonic symbols. A while ago, I took some interest in why these where in very old pictures. The crown and cross.
CROWN AND THE CROSS;
It was an adaptation of a long used Catholic symbol. “If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him.” And “he who would be my follower must take us his cross daily and follow me.”
As for the KNIGHTS HELMET, this isn’t a masonic or knight’s templar symbol. Behind the helmet are a sword, shephards staff, and an axe. It was derived from concepts found in scripture. We are told to put on the “helmet of salvation, sword of the spirit.” “his rod and staff comfort me,” “all who walk rightfully in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”Anyway, I should have just begun by saying that free masons (of the Grand Lodge of BC and the Yukon), who should know, say that “Russel was not a free mason. Neither the symbols found in the Watchtower nor the cross and crown symbol are exclusively masonic. And the cross and crown symbol does not appear on his gravestone in the Rosemont United Cemetery, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania — it appears on a memorial erected some years later.
In an address delivered in a San Francisco masonic hall in 1913, Russell made positive use of masonic imagery by saying, “Now, I am a free and accepted mason. I trust we all are. But not just after the style of our masonic brethren.” He further develops this idea: “true Bible believers may or may not belong to the masonic fraternity, but they are all masons of the highest order, since they are being fashioned, chiselled and polished by the Almighty to be used as living stones in the Temple Built Without Hands. They are free from sin, and therefore accepted by the God of Heaven as fit stones for the heavenly Temple.” Later in this address, Russell stated quite clearly that “I have never been a mason.” Those who claim Russell was a freemason quote this address out of context without noting the rhetorical imagery.”
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry03.htmlAs well, if you go to any Mason site and ask the masons if he was a mason, they will give the clear answer: No. They will even point to the fact that the Watchtower speaks negatively about masonry.
With very very little research, you will find that charles taze russel was a mason. With more research, you’ll find that you were lied to the first time, by those who wish to strike at anything they can to discredit Jehovah’s Witnesses. Saying that Russel was a mason is slander with a very obvious intent.
The following book is about Allegheny’s Masonic Fund Society which oversaw the construction and maintenance of the city’s Masonic Temple:
“The history of the Masonic Fund Society for the county of Allegheny from the year 1847 to 1923; with biographical sketches of deceased members of the Board of Trustees …” / by Hiram Schock, Pittsburgh, PA : 1923
You will find it on the net at this link: http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin….=header
Besides the construction of the various temples over the years (1911, 1845, 1889, 1914), it describes the daily managment of these temples and supplies the names of the various Masons in charge at the time.
It can be stated that none of the Russels were worthy of being mentioned, not even a word about them.
On page 126 of the abovementioned document, for example, the author states:
“It is interesting to note the continued popularity of the Auditorium, or ‘Concert Hall’ of the Masonic Hall during that era as a gathering place for the meetings of a variety of organizations.”
On this same page, it is explained that the masons would rent the room daily to the local YMCA.
In the course of the book, other groups are shown to have used the Masonic Temple as a place of meeting:
Page 125: The Second Baptist Church rented the room for its religious meetings
Page 133: concerts and charity meetings of the ladies of Trinity Episcopal Church
Page 146: Here we learn that before the construction of the Opera house, the Masonic
Temple was the most popular cultural venue for theater performances and public
discourses.Quote Not to mention that he is buried under a huge pyramid headstone in PA.
See above. He’s not buried under it and it was erected some years after his death, as quoted above
“I can prove easily that the masonic temple near the Russell's gravestone was build 80 years after the death of Russell, that the plot was not donate to the masonry by russell or the watchtower but was buyed by the masonry in 1995.”
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/10189/1.ashx
The next line in that forum is interesting. Let me
put it in bold:
“I consider the “truth” about this and every other JW-related issue to be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, because OBVIOUS HORSE[….] like “Russell was a Mason” only serves the WTS's objective of painting XJWs as NUTS and LIARS.”
That quote was submitted by someone called “madapostate.”
You will find this set of pictures on hundreds of websites. There is a picture of his headstone here (under which he is buried), along with his instructions for burial: http://www.freeminds.org/history/cemetary.htm
It is true that Russel was one of the most prominent “pyramidologists”, with other prominent “pyramidologists” (Morton Edgar) also being Watchtower Society Officers.
This was a part of his beliefs along with other false traditions (like celebrating pagan holidays, etc, which were done away with)
Just for the record. Pyramids are not connected to masonry. This is a urban legend. The only masonry who could be interested in pyramidology was the Memphis-Misraïm Rite, but there was none in Allegheny, where Russel was. This movement beginned in France, and have in France at this best time only an hundred of mason. It crossed the Atlantic and has perhaps more mason in USA, but there was no Memphis Misraïm lodge at the time of Russell.Quote Not to mention all the other times he and other JW leaders falsely predicted Christ's return, then denied they said it. Not to mention that lying is acceptable under the banner of “theocratic warfare”.
“Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) It is not wrong to be interested in the coming end of this present wicked system of things. Those assembled were almost 2,000 years off in their reckoning when they asked Jesus the above question.
We can see from this that Jesus’ closest followers were so anxious for the end to come quickly that they overlooked what he had recently told them about physical evidences that had to develop during his presence prior to that end.
Even after the Christian congregation became well established, erroneous ideas and false expectations continued to crop up. (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) Though some occasionally had mistaken views, Jehovah undeniably blessed the work of those first-century believers.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have had one or two wrong expectations. I’m not sure they denied they “said it,” as you say. I was shown by an overseer in one book where they were clearly wrong.
I believe it was the book “Life Everlasting–in Freedom of the Sons of God” that stated how appropriate it would be for the millenial reign to begin in the seventh millenium of man’s existence. There were statements made to that effect, as well as precautionary statements that this was only a possibility. And sadly there were a couple statements that implied that that year was more of a probability than a possibility. These statements overshadowed the others. And so hopes were built up. But I believe it is a lie to say they “denied they said it.”
“Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ….Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth.”
And I’m not sure what is meant by “lying is acceptable under the banner of ‘theocratic warefare.’”Quote So please. Anyone can clearly look up your religion's history on the internet and that is why there were so many conventions telling you to stay off of it.
Yes, you can clearly look up our history on the internet. And everything on the internet is good and true, isn’t it?. Isn’t 80% of internet traffic pornography related? Someone that does 5 minutes of research may falsely think that charles taze russel was a free mason. If they slandered Christ, would not his followers expect the same?
If Satan really does rule the world, as the Bible says he does, how much influence does he direct towards slandering true Christians? I would think a lot.
There has never been a convention telling anyone to “stay off” the internet. Most every Witness that I know uses the internet. We are only told to be selective and aware of the dangers. I think you may be referring to the thousands of Witness bashing sites that exist. They will tell you things like: charles taze russel was a free mason (laugh, laugh), so Jehovah’s Witnesses are crazy. Of course, this is ludacris. But, many fall for such things without doing more than 5 minutes of research.Quote People are afraid to leave because if they do they will be disfellowshipped and their family and friends still belonging to the JW's are told to have nothing to do with them.
Just for the record, if you were one of those people who were born into a family who happens to be Jehovah’s Witnesses, and you decide not to be, and there is division in your family because of this–this was foretold as a part of true Christianity. (Mat 10:34-37)
And for those who don’t know, if you are born into a JW family and do not choose to be a Witness and don’t get baptized, then you cannot be disfellowshipped and you are free to associate with whomever you please. But if you choose to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and to represent Jehovah, and then later choose to act against Jehovah as a rebel, perhaps willfully practicing fornication as an example, and are not repentent, yes, you will be disfellowshiped, in line with the scriptures, so as to not have a bad influence on the congregation. (1 cor 5:1-13; deut 21:18-21; Titus 3:10, 11; 2 John 9-11)
This keeps the congregation clean and impresses on the unrepentent wrongdoer the need for sincere repentance with a view to recovering him.
With the Israelites, sometimes breaking Gods laws meant being “cut off,” in death. (Leviticus 17:14; 18:6-17, 21-29; deut 17: 2,12,13; Numbers 4:15, 18; 15:30, 31) In view of that, being “cut off” from association isn’t that bad.Quote There is NOTHING in the Bible that says you can not go and fellowship with another group of Bible believers but they add to the scriptures and say otherwise.
Does it not seem to you, that if someone is sitting next to you (a “Bible believer”) and you know they like to steel, and you don’t say anything, but go on being their friend, never mentioning it, doesn’t it seem to you that you are condoning their actions? There are certain things God does not condone. The Bible says that if you are a friend of the world, you are an enemy of God. It says bad associations spoil useful habits. It says that Satan is the ruler of the world. Would we want to fellowship with just anyone? Of course, God is impartial, and everyone will be given a chance to hear the good news. But interfaith was never a Bible teaching. The Jews had to become Christians. The Pharisees and Saducees thought they we
re “Bible believers,” but they had it all wrong. Would John have been a friend of a saducee, fellowshiping with him, letting his traits rub off on him?
How did Jesus view religious leaders (“Bible believers”) who pretended to be righteous but disrespected God? (John 8:42-47)
Would it demonstrate loyalty to God and to his righteous standards if his servants were to embrace in religious brotherhood those who themselves practice what God condemns or who condone such practices? (1 Cor. 5:11; 6:9, 10; james 4:4; ps 97:10; 2 cor 6:14-17; rev 18:4,5)Quote Why don't we talk about all those poor souls who were shunned and went on to commit suicide?
I’m starting to wonder if perhaps S, is a part of this group who was disfellowshiped and therefore is acting out against Jehovah’s organization. One of my best friends is someone who has been disfellowshipped twice! It helped him greatly. Had he not been reproved in this way, I can only imagine where he would be.Quote That and mental disorders rank high among JW's and Mormons.
Yes, and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons (and don’t forget the free masons) are all part of some illumanati, secret conspiracy. Yes, I’ve glanced at those websites too. Then, after half a second, I went to other websites that weren’t created by people who hate Jehovah’s Witnesses, but have are much less biased. These things all sound very convincing to those who want a reason to disbelieve, and there are plenty. (John 15:18).Quote Recently the news has uncovered pedophiles in your group which your leaders were protecting by telling the victims NOT to contact the authorities.
First, I would like to state the little known fact that ones who are found to be pedophiles (and only this group) are not ever allowed into positions of authority among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Secondly, they were not “protecting” anyone, but following scriptural procedure.
In the back of my mind, I personally believe that the Roman Catholic church is somehow behind this, as they do suffer from this problem (with priests not marrying) and would love to direct attention elsewhere. (See Aug 16, 1993 Newsweek)
Yes, Jehovah’s Witnesses, like everyone else, are human and do sin. In the rare cases where something as heinous and sad as this happens, we do what the Bible tells us to do:
Paul instructs those men in the congregation having the responsibility to act as judges to gather together to hear such a matter. (1Co 5:1-5; 6:1-5) They are to accept the accusation as true only when there are two or three witnesses, weighing the evidence without prejudgment, doing nothing according to a biased leaning.—1Ti 5:19, 21.
Jesus commanded his disciples that if one sinned against another, efforts should first be made to settle the matter personally between themselves. If these efforts failed and the issue was of a serious nature, they should take it to the congregation for settlement (that is, to those appointed to responsible positions in governing the congregation).
Paul later admonished Christians to settle difficulties in this manner and not to be taking one another before worldly courts.—Mt 18:15-17; 1Co 6:1-8
Of course, anyone can break these commands. But the elders will of course encourage everyone to follow the Bible’s counsel in handling these matters, just as the early Christian Bible writers encouraged us to do the same.The following is taken from Wickipedia under “controversies regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses”:
“Critics have accused Jehovah's Witnesses of employing organizational policies that make the reporting of sexual abuse difficult for members. For a report of abuse to be considered “proven” (to the degree that would merit congregational judicial discipline), there needs to be two witnesses or a confession by the accused (only in cases where there is no physical evidence of the abuse).[11][12]
Some victims of sexual abuse also assert that when reporting abuse they have been directed to maintain silence to avoid embarrassment to both the accused and the organization.[13][14]
The official policy on child protection for Jehovah’s Witnesses, which discusses the procedures for reporting child sexual abuse, states that elders obey all legal requirements for reporting sex offenders, including reporting uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations where required by law and that they are to discipline pedophiles. It also emphasizes the right of the victim to notify the authorities if they wish to do so.[15]”Quote When families did call the police, your group disfellowshipped THEM and kept the pedophiles in the church. Even today, known pedophiles in your church go door to door witnessing.
I wonder how much of this story we are actually getting. On the second thing, they remain under watchful eyes. But are these ones “pedophiles?” Or WERE they pedophiles? If a man commits even the worst of sins, can he be forgiven if he truly repents and changes his ways. What did Jesus say about these things?Quote Jesus said “You will know them by their fruits.” False prophecy, legalistic works-based salvation and no real love for people are what I've experienced first hand.
Legalistic?
U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Harlan Fiske Stone wrote, “The Jehovah's Witnesses ought to have an endowment in view of the aid which they give in solving the legal problems of civil liberties.”
“Internationally there have been numerous Supreme Court cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses, evidence of the church's strong resistance to government interference in their beliefs.”
http://www.answers.com/topic….tnesses
What other group has done so much in “the defending and legally establishing of the good news,” as Paul put it. (Phil 1:7)Quote I'm truly sorry if I have hurt your feelings . . . I forgive you.
david
seminarian,
I believe David has a heart for God, however I too am concerned about his aliance with the JW's. However not just JW's but any denomination where we might start trusting more in their doctrine, then in the Lord. I've had many a discussion with David and although we disagree (and I've even questioned his tatics at time) I do believe someone like him supports what I've always believed, that God has his faithful in all the “christian” denominations.I attend an AOG church. They differ quite a bit in that the headquarters allows the local church a wide range (no name it claim it here). I do not believe everything they teach obviously but for the time being I believe I can be a light to those there who are like I was a few years ago. The first 20 year I attended I believed items I now know are wrong, but God is patient and stuck with me and drew me to the truth. I still do not know all truth but will continue to pursue it as I incourage others to do the same. David I pray for you and the others on this site that we may all reach towards perfection.
Thank the Lord for His grace and mercy.
Hi david.
When I said that “some one had to say it” I was talking of your adherence to a denomination and I thought and still think it was good that someone challenged you on your faithful service to a denomination.
I personally believe that all you do for the JWs you will not receive one ounce of reward. In fact you will have to account for these things. But all that you do that has been led by the Spirit you will recieve reward for because in that instance you are doing God's will and God's will is all that matters.
I also prefer to cast off these denominational labels and just search out scripture together, but the problem there is that you are not doing this, rather your motive for being here is to serve the JWs organisation because I guess that you believe this is the way to serve Jehovah. You promote their doctrine and only agree with things that they teach. This is the dishonest part. You are not honestly seeking truth, rather seeking to promote the JW gospel and doctrines. So to that end we are forced to scrutinise the JW organisation itself by reason of your promotion.
In that light I would like to come back to a question I asked earlier and would appreciate an honest answer.
1) The Church/Body of Christ is exclusively the JWs organisation.
All other so-called christian organisations are part of Babylon. The JWs, Watchtower government, and members of this church are not part of Babylon.2) The Church/Body of Christ is the Roman Catholic Church. It's leader the Pope is the vicar on earth of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Pope can rewrite or add doctrine as he is infallible.
3) The Church/Body of Christ is made up of believers from most places in the world that belong to God and have his spirit. They may or may not attend different denominations, but they are one in God and his Christ. Some of these members (living stones) are even caught up in Babylon, but God desires for them to come out of her and be free, so that they may not partake in her judgment. The Church is invisible in that it is not an organisation like the JWs or Catholics with a name of their own, but it's head is Christ and he builds the Church which is his body.
An answer like 1, 2, 3, or neither would be good. If it is neither, then you may want to support that with an explantion.
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 26 2006,22:01) seminarian,
I believe David has a heart for God, however I too am concerned about his aliance with the JW's. However not just JW's but any denomination where we might start trusting more in their doctrine, then in the Lord. I've had many a discussion with David and although we disagree (and I've even questioned his tatics at time) I do believe someone like him supports what I've always believed, that God has his faithful in all the “christian” denominations.I attend an AOG church. They differ quite a bit in that the headquarters allows the local church a wide range (no name it claim it here). I do not believe everything they teach obviously but for the time being I believe I can be a light to those there who are like I was a few years ago. The first 20 year I attended I believed items I now know are wrong, but God is patient and stuck with me and drew me to the truth. I still do not know all truth but will continue to pursue it as I incourage others to do the same. David I pray for you and the others on this site that we may all reach towards perfection.
Thank the Lord for His grace and mercy.
Good post seekingtruth.
Quote I personally believe that all you do for the JWs you will not receive one ounce of reward.
Hey t8. What I “do” for my brothers who are fellow witnesses for Jehovah I do not do for reward. They are my brothers.Quote rather your motive for being here is to serve the JWs organisation because I guess that you believe this is the way to serve Jehovah. You promote their doctrine and only agree with things that they teach.
Jehovah's organization did not tell me to come on this site. My motive here is actually the same as it has always been. It began with the trinity. I was fascinated, astounded that there were ones who weren't Jehovah's Witnesses who actually call themselves Christians and yet do not believe in the trinity. Just in the past couple of day, for no reason whatsoever, I decided to do some research on John 1:1. I've never researched it to the level I've wanted. (That's why I haven't been on here the last three days.) I come on here because it's easier to find a listening ear. It's helps me to practice my thinking and reasoning ability, for real life situations. And it forces me to look into things I normally wouldn't. It forces deep research. I don't have any great agenda on here. I simply enjoy discussing the Bible with people, and unlike most people I come in contact with, everyone on here, well, most everyone will actually discuss scripture. Some prefer to attack without actually using scripture to support their ideas. (You should be used to that.) When that happens, I defend what I believe. I try to be “always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.” (1 Pet 3:15) I often fail and need work on my mildness and respect for everyone. And my “defense” is not always in the most pleasant words. Another failing. But I always do use scripture to back up what I believe.
t8, what if I told you: “You only believe the things Paul and Peter teach.” “You only promote their doctrine.” If what they teach is the truth, then I guess those words would be a compliment.Quote You are not honestly seeking truth, rather seeking to promote the JW gospel and doctrines. So to that end we are forced to scrutinise the JW organisation itself by reason of your promotion.
t8, you'll notice I do very little promoting of what you call the “JW organisation.” When attacked, I defend. I greatly prefer to discuss the Bible and what the Bible says. You have never heard me on here just start saying: “JW's are so great,” or anything like that at all.Quote In that light I would like to come back to a question I asked earlier and would appreciate an honest answer. First, why would you put #2 in there? Do you believe in the slightest that I will pick #2? Do you think there is the smallest chance I will say #2? Then why?
Quote 3) The Church/Body of Christ is made up of believers from most places in the world that belong to God and have his spirit
So far I agree with 3.Quote They may or may not attend different denominations, but they are one in God and his Christ.
“They may or may not”?
So one possibility of what you are saying is that they “may not attend different denominations, but they are one in God and his Christ.”
Ok, I believe that. God is not a God of confusion. Some believe that God shows himself in different ways. To the Hindus, one way, to the Buddhists, one way, to you, another. But I believe that Jehovah is a God of order, “not disorder,” as the Bible says. For him to have one set of people believing one thing and another people believing the opposite and for God to accept both sets of people is…wrong. Either God tortures people or he doesn't. Either he's a trinity, or he isn't. If you have a person in a religion that believes all the wrong things, then how is he really a believer. Wouldn't true believers believe the truth? So I don't subscribe to your unbiblicial philosophy that it doesn't really matter who you associate with or what you believe, as long as your heart is right, or whatever, you're fine. I think if you're fine, God will lead you in the right direction. And that is out of Babylonian religions with their false teachings. True Christians are united in thought and deed. Not separated by wars or countries or boundries or beliefs.Quote Some of these members (living stones) are even caught up in Babylon, but God desires for them to come out of her and be free, so that they may not partake in her judgment.
God draws them out. Right now, the “good news of the kingdom is being preached in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations.” (mat 24:14) Only one group is fulfilling this scripture.Quote The Church is invisible in that it is not an organisation like the JWs or Catholics with a name of their own, but it's head is Christ and he builds the Church which is his body.
It's head is Christ. But people on earth are not invisible. At least, I'm not. The people that are being gathered together in this great preaching work have to see the people that are following Jesus command to preach (mat 28:19,20). A great deal of organisation is required to carry out such an incredibly large command.
So I would cross of those options. Niether of them seems possible to me, based on what the scriptures say. What are we left with?Quote (david @ July 28 2006,23:38) Hey t8. What I “do” for my brothers who are fellow witnesses for Jehovah I do not do for reward. They are my brothers.
Who are your brothers david?If you are a child of God, then your brothers are those who do God's will.
Mark 3:35
Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.”Are we your brothers david?
Or are your brothers the JWs exclusively?Quote (david @ July 28 2006,23:38) So far I agree with 3.
OK that is great david.You recognise that God has children outside of the JWs.
I also take it from that, that you do not think the JWs are exclusively the Church.Wow, I didn't really expect you to say that.
Quote
God draws them out. Right now, the “good news of the kingdom is being preached in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations.” (mat 24:14) Only one group is fulfilling this scripture.But then you said what I quoted above, which to me is sad. If you really believe that the JWs are the group responsible for preaching the good news of the Kingdom to all the world, then you have jumped back into the fire (so to speak). You bring it back to the JWs and you serve that organisation to the detriment of the Church and Body of Christ.
How hard is it for you to see that the Church is not a man-made organisation with a name like Baptists, JWs, Catholics. Rather it is made up of living stones. People filled with God's spirit. They are one with God in spirit. Such people have the world to contend with, but an even greater aposer is the influence of Babylon.
Even Jesus greatest opposition was from the religious.
Maybe you will come round and see that indeed all the organisations of men are corrupt and false. God's Kingdom, his church, his message is not from men. So why do we have to choose between the warring factions of men?
Would it not be better to be led by God's Spirit and see what he does through you? After all the church in the first century were not called Jehovah Witnesses and they met in houses and other similar places. They were one in Spirit. Why can't the Church/Body of Christ be like that. I tell you that it is.
When a man preaches the Trinity he is supporting the organisation(s) that teaches this. When a man teaches JW doctrine, then without even mentioning the JWs, he is supporting that organisation. Same with Christadelphian, and thousands of others, if we preach their doctrine, we support them. If the doctrine is true then we are not supporting anyone, but the truth.
Quote (david @ July 28 2006,23:38) So I would cross of those options. Niether of them seems possible to me, based on what the scriptures say. What are we left with?
OK I got to the last bit.“That leaves no option.”
So what about a small explanation as to why the JWs are the only organisation, or are they a part of a greater witness? How do you view the Body of Christ, the Church? For example could I be a son of God, or am I a lost cause because I haven't figured out that the JWs are the organisation that Jehovah has picked to do his work?
Just some kind of idea where you are coming from and how you view us in that context.
Thanks.
Quote Quote (david @ July 28 2006,23:38)
So far I agree with 3.OK that is great david.
You recognise that God has children outside of the JWs.
I also take it from that, that you do not think the JWs are exclusively the Church.Wow, I didn't really expect you to say that.
Sorry t8. I think you misunderstood me. I agree with the first sentence, but not with what you meant by it. JW's are most places in the world, as you said and everything else in that sentence also applies. Sorry for not being clearer.
Quote Mark 3:35
Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.”Are we your brothers david?
Or are your brothers the JWs exclusively?If you were truly doing God's will, then of course, yes, you would be my brother, and I would rejoice in that greatly.
Quote God's Kingdom, his church, his message is not from men.
No, but it is men who proclaim it. Someone once said that “God doesn't play dice with the universe.” Nor does he just hope that people will somehow find their way. He is using men to proclaim his good news, and his warning.Quote After all the church in the first century were not called Jehovah Witnesses and they met in houses and other similar places.
We meet in houses and similar places t8. They may not have had the official name “JW,” yet they were witnesses of and for Jehovah and his son. Jesus Christ was called “the faithful and true witness” and also the “faithful witness.” Of whom was he a witness? Are we not follow Christ's example, as the early Christians most certainly did? They were all God's witnesses, t8. There's a list of a “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1) in Hebrews 11, from Abel on down–even before their were Christians, there were witnesses of Jehovah. (See Isaiah 43:10-12 in a Bible that includes God's name.) Israel was a nation of witnesses, for Jehovah.
Now here's the thing. Yes, we are Christians. But because there are so many imposters out there, and because Christianity has been given such a bad name, because of the foul terrible things it has commited, a name that separates us is a good thing. And Jehovah's Witnesses is a scripturally fitting name. (Is 43)Quote They were one in Spirit. Why can't the Church/Body of Christ be like that. I tell you that it is.
MY POINT EXACTLY. You continuously say that there are true Christians in all religions–they just haven't come out yet. But I say that they aren't really true Christians until they do come out of Babylon. If they are a part of Babylon and practice it's ways and believe it's beliefs, how are they true believers? True Christians, as YOU say, would be one spirit. Yet, you're saying that ones that are completely divided in thought and spirit are united somehow. Jehovah's Witnesses are united, just as you say true Christians would be. Thankyou for bringing that point out.Quote When a man preaches the Trinity he is supporting the organisation(s) that teaches this. When a man teaches JW doctrine, then without even mentioning the JWs,
t8, if the trinity is not a biblical teaching and we (JW's) don't teach it, then are we teaching JW doctrine, or following God's Word. Even you don't believe the trinity, so many without knowing you, may label you a JW. Apparently, you believe what many consider to be “JW doctrine,” but you just don't think of it that way. And really, you shouldnt' think of it that way.Quote Same with Christadelphian, and thousands of others, if we preach their doctrine, we support them.
Well, am I supposed to thankyou for supporting Jehovah's Witness “doctrine” then? You do preach against the trinity and that is one of a few things JW's are specifically known for. Are you supporting us?
What I'm hoping you get from this is that you shouldn't say: “You are wrong because you are JW,” but rather you should say: “This is what the Bible says. How do your beliefs and actions compare?”Quote If the doctrine is true then we are not supporting anyone, but the truth.
Well then, I guess I'm supporting the truth. This is what I'm talking about. I'd rather discuss the bible than have you point and say: “You're a JW. You're wrong.”Did the thief on the cross have all doctrine correct? Did the ethiopian in his chariot praising God have every doctrine fully correct and understood as he road off? Did Cornelius the Centurian have all doctrine correct when Peter witnessed to those in his home and they received the holy spirit? If a person dies before fulling grasping all the nuances of scriptural accuracy is he saved? That would seem very Gnostic, salvation via a knowledge rather than by grace.
I agree with the logical statements David is making about if truth is truth then it is the truth and then he who is true would be where truth is. If that is within the JW then yes that would be a righteous organization where believers would hear the truth spoken boldly.
The main question is just one that needs a literal straight up answer. Is a person who is following truth and seeking God diligently and walking where he is led and has made Christ is Lord and his Savior and has repented of his sins still able to receive salvation / eternal life if he has not been involved with the JW's? If you are right that the JW is the church of God yet a believer dies before having anything to do with the origanization then is he still saved?
Could a person who is trying faithfully to come out of babylon yet never enters the JW still be saved? They came out just didnt get in a particular denomination / organization / group of people / ecclesia / particular body of belivers etc…. Can a man stranded on a deserted island with a bible be saved?
I don't mean to sound condescending I just wanted to be very clear on what is being asked.
Hello Mercy
Quote If you are right that the JW is the church of God yet a believer dies before having anything to do with the origanization then is he still saved?
Does not the scripture say there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous?Quote Can a man stranded on a deserted island with a bible be saved?
God is just and wise. Let me ask you: Is this man breaking God's commands because he is not being loving to his neighbor (a non-existent neighbor)? Is this man breaking jesus command to “Go” and preach to people of all the nations, making disciples? A man does what he can. And God's appointed judges will judge accordingly.
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