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Quote (david @ Feb. 18 2008,03:36) Quote First, you have shared that only the 144,000 are born again, but the scripture states:
Quote
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.Hi 94. This scripture does not disagree with my believe that those who make up the kingdom (heavenly government) must be born again. All this scripture says is that “unless” you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now,while I would like to be under the kingdom of God, I don't expect to be in it, to make up that kingdom or government.Indicating that there are two groups of humans that will benefit from God’s gracious provisions are the words of the apostle Paul found at Romans 8:19-21:
“For the eager expectation of the creation [one group] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [another group]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
So eventually all those benefitting because of their faith in Christ’s sacrifice will enjoy life as sons of God—144,000 who were “bought from the earth” to be in heaven and many thousands of millions who will enjoy everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Revelation 7:4, 9; 14:3; Matthew 25:31-34.BORN AGAIN TO RULE AS KINGS
Jesus told Nicodemus that those who are “born again . . . enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3-5) What is that Kingdom? In symbolic language, early in human history, Jehovah God gave notice of his purpose to use a special “seed”—a coming ruler—to crush the head of the original Serpent, Satan the Devil. (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:9) As revealed progressively in the Scriptures, this “seed” is identified as Jesus Christ, who reigns with co-rulers in a unique expression of God’s sovereignty, the Messianic Kingdom. (Psalm 2:8, 9; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14) This is the Kingdom of heaven, a government in the heavens that will vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty and rescue mankind from bondage to sin and death.—Matthew 6:9, 10.
Associated with Jesus as corulers are 144,000 who are bought from humankind. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1-4) God has chosen some from Adam’s imperfect human family to become these “holy ones of the Supreme One,” who rule with Christ in the Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 3:21; 20:6) These men and women put faith in Jesus Christ, who said that they would be “born again.” (John 3:5-7)Some scriptures to consider:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
1 PETER 1:23
“For YOU have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”
2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
“Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence.”
1 PETER 1:3
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
1 JOHN 3:9
“Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.”Quote Quote
Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:Is the JW church structured this way? If no, someone else has organized it, and not the Lord.
“unity of the faith.” (vs 13) Well, that certainly points to JW's. Go anywhere in the world and you will hear the same message. This is quite uncommon.
But you're most likely referring to this:
Quote And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:While all Christians (his disciples) are commissioned to be evangelizers (mat 28:19,20), the word is used in a special way at Ephesians 4:8, 11, 12, where Paul describes “the gifts in men” that Christ gave to the congregation The specific work of such evangelizers was that of missionaries. Often these would open new fields where the good news had not been previously preached.
Yes, we certainly have such ones.
We certainly have shepherds and teachers. But they're not called “Mr. shepherd” or called a “teacher,” for one is our teacher. (Mat 23:8) But this is what they do.
And nor do we “call” anyone prophets or apostles. The most basic meaning of the word “prophet” is one who tells God's will. Usually, people associate this will his future purposes, but looking at the Bible, this is not necessarily so.
Apostle means “sent one.” Jesus sent these ones out. Paul was an apostle to the nations…. Anyway, we have many “sent out” ones, but we've never called them apostles.
The answer to your question is…yes.“He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.”—Ephesians 4:11-14.
In these verses, Paul explained that among the reasons why God made such ample spiritual provisions in the congregation are that all should ‘attain oneness in the faith and in accurate knowledge,’ become “a full-grown man,” and have the ‘measure of stature of Christ.’ Only then will we be safe from being tossed about like spiritual babes by false ideas and teachings. Thus we see the close relationship between advancing to Christian maturity and gaining gaining “oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God.”
Despite being members of 236 lands with hundreds of languages and races, Jehovah's present day witnesses are united in worship of Jehovah and
have a “oneness in the faith” that I think is quite remarkable.
Hi David:You cannot serve the King unless you are in the Kingdom, and you cannot be in the Kingdom unless you have been born again.
I've had this converstation with you before showing you the following scripture:
Quote Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.Quote Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth (5723) in you.Quote Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.Quote 1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.Quote 1 John 5:9
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Quote 1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.The 144, 000 are in authority in the church. But we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The authority just gives them more responsiblity.
Quote 1 Co. 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
12:13
For * * by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
12:14
* For the body is not one member, but many.
12:15
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore * * * not of the body?
12:16
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore * * * not of the body?
12:17
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
12:18
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
12:19
And if they were all one member, where were the body?
12:20
But now are they many members, yet but one body.
12:21
And the eye cannot * say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
12:22
Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
12:23
And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
12:24
For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
12:25
That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
12:26
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
12:28
And * * God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
12:29
Are all * * apostles? are all * * prophets? are all * * teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30
Have * all the gifts of healing? do all speak * with tongues? do all interpret ?If the Lord has given gifts to those in His kingdom and called some Apostles, and some Pastors, and some prophets, and some teachers and some evangelists. How do you see it that the JW's have the authority to change this. Did the Lord give you that authority?
You may think that you are doing God a favor by going house to house proclaiming the gospel message, but if you are not in the kingdom, he did not send you, and if you are preaching that only a few need to be born again, you are preaching the wrong message.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
94, you state:
Quote You cannot serve the King unless you are in the Kingdom, Isn't that Hezekiah 4:2? Oh wait. There is no book of Hezekiah.
God's kingdom is a government.
What you have just said is comparable to saying:
You cannot serve the government unless you are in the government.Those who are in the kingdom make up the kingdom. They are the kingdom.
Quote you cannot be in the Kingdom unless you have been born again.
No arguments there.So, I guess you'll just have to explain scripturally why “you can't serve the king unless you are in the kingdom.”
Quote The 144, 000 are in authority in the church. But we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The authority just gives them more responsiblity.
I'm not disagreeing with this.Quote If the Lord has given gifts to those in His kingdom and called some Apostles, and some Pastors, and some prophets, and some teachers and some evangelists. How do you see it that the JW's have the authority to change this.
Please quote where I said they changed this.Quote if you are not in the kingdom, he did not send you,
I think we need to look at what the kingdom is, scripturally. What do you think it is? And, from the scriptures, where is it stated that you have to be “in the kingdom” to be sent by God?If all are kings, who do they rule over?
Quote (david @ Feb. 18 2008,11:26) 94, you state: Quote You cannot serve the King unless you are in the Kingdom, Isn't that Hezekiah 4:2? Oh wait. There is no book of Hezekiah.
God's kingdom is a government.
What you have just said is comparable to saying:
You cannot serve the government unless you are in the government.Those who are in the kingdom make up the kingdom. They are the kingdom.
Quote you cannot be in the Kingdom unless you have been born again.
No arguments there.So, I guess you'll just have to explain scripturally why “you can't serve the king unless you are in the kingdom.”
Quote The 144, 000 are in authority in the church. But we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The authority just gives them more responsiblity.
I'm not disagreeing with this.Quote If the Lord has given gifts to those in His kingdom and called some Apostles, and some Pastors, and some prophets, and some teachers and some evangelists. How do you see it that the JW's have the authority to change this.
Please quote where I said they changed this.Quote if you are not in the kingdom, he did not send you,
I think we need to look at what the kingdom is, scripturally. What do you think it is? And, from the scriptures, where is it stated that you have to be “in the kingdom” to be sent by God?If all are kings, who do they rule over?
Hi David:You got me. I made a statement based on my understanding of the scriptures, but there is no scripture which states one cannot serve the king unless one is part of the kingdom.
Here are a few scriptures for the basis of my statement:
Quote Mt 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Quote Mt 21:31
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.Quote Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Quote Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by F31 his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
In order for the Spirit of God to dwell within you, you must have been born again, otherwise you are still in your sins, and you cannot serve God and sin.
About changing the positions of authority which the Lord established in the church, this is where I read your statement that the JW's have the same postions but have changed what they are called:
Quote While all Christians (his disciples) are commissioned to be evangelizers (mat 28:19,20), the word is used in a special way at Ephesians 4:8, 11, 12, where Paul describes “the gifts in men” that Christ gave to the congregation The specific work of such evangelizers was that of missionaries. Often these would open new fields where the good news had not been previously preached.
Yes, we certainly have such ones.
We certainly have shepherds and teachers. But they're not called “Mr. shepherd” or called a “teacher,” for one is our teacher. (Mat 23:8) But this is what they do.
And nor do we “call” anyone prophets or apostles. The most basic meaning of the word “prophet” is one who tells God's will. Usually, people associate this will his future purposes, but looking at the Bible, this is not necessarily so.
Apostle means “sent one.” Jesus sent these ones out. Paul was an apostle to the nations…. Anyway, we have many “sent out” ones, but we've neverI have to go for the night David. If I failed to answer any of your questions, please let me know, and perhaps, I can get to you tomorrow evening.
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