Jehovah's witnesses

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
When you come back are you willing to discuss the JW's beliefs?We have examined them according to scripture and found them wanting.
For example:
We do not accept that only 144,000 will be saved as Revelation shows them to be of the Jewish tribes.
Neither do we believe the Son of God is an Angel.

[david]

Hi Nick
First, neither do we accept that only 144,000 will be saved, as you say.
This is sort of the opposite side of the coin. I've been trying to get you to state what you believe on the same subject. But you've been rather evasive.

Go to the “Let thy will take place as in heaven” forum.
Consider that to be my introductory words to what are to follow on this topic. You never really answered my question. I'm still unsure of what you think of those scriptures.

As for God's son being an angel, I'd rather discuss one subject at a time. The people we talk to in the ministry, they seem to flip flop from subject to subject. When you say something they don't like, such as about the lack of a trinity, they will jump to some other subject or create another subject. Sound familiar? Anyway, I totally respect your thoughts as I've said, so I would like to have a conversation with you about my beliefs. Thus far, we have already been doing that, but on grounds that we agree, which is unusual for me. So, for all those people that jump on the band wagon and will want to start stabbing at me, let's keep it to one subject for a while.

Thankyou in advance.

david

[david]

The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons. The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E. But more important, John received his vision upon a background of the aforementioned developments from and after Pentecost 33 C.E. In the light of such events, John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 “bought from among mankind.”—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.

The listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israel. This is balanced. There are to be exactly 144,000 members of this new nation—12,000 from each of 12 tribes. No tribe in this Israel of God is exclusively royal or priestly. The whole nation is to rule as kings, and the whole nation is to serve as priests.—Galatians 6:16; Revelation 20:4, 6.

Are they natural Jews?
Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”
Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?
The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?

Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.

The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no´pi·on tou thro´nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.

The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

HERE'S WHERE THINGS REALLY GET FUN…
What will those who go to heaven do there?

Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)

1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.”)

Nick, I'm still not clear on your thoughts for the earth. Maybe you've answered my question already while I've been creating this, but you've been seeming to indicate that there would be ones on the earth who would be ruled over. the ones who are ruled over always outnumber the rulers, by a lot. These heavenly ones are to be a kingdom and priests. It is a kingdom or government run by a king that will accomplish Jehovah's purposes, for man and for the earth and more important, for Jehovah's sovereignty. I really wish I knew what your thoughts were on that before I replied.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,” which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group, “a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion—that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: “It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.” (The Apocalypse or “The Day of the Lord,” page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: “The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.” He added: “It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.

Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of “the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about “the thousand years” of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.” (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence,
the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29.

To recap:

Rev. 7:4: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.” (But in the verses that follow, mention is made of “the tribe of Levi” and “the tribe of Joseph.” These were not included in lists of the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Interestingly, while it is said that people would be “sealed out of every tribe,” the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. [Compare Numbers 1:4-16.] Reference must here be made to the spiritual Israel of God, to those whom Revelation 14:1-3 shows will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom.)

Heb. 12:22: “You have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels.” (Thus it is not to earthly Jerusalem but to “heavenly Jerusalem” that true Christians look for fulfillment of the promises of God.)

[NickHassan]

Hi d,
Where does it say we go to heaven?The great crowd in heaven spoken of in Rev 19 are surely not men but angels. Where does it say they are men?
What is the evidence the 144,000 bondservants of the Lamb is the same group as the crowd too large to count?

[david]

“Where does it [the bible] say we go to heaven? Is this reverse pychology Nick?

I would be more apt to answer these questions if I felt that you read over what I put down. Can we start with some basic, simple things, things we may agree on and go from there, before getting into all this revelation talk?
Again, I refer you to “let thy will be done in heaven,” forum.

Since you've been shy on disagreeing with anything I say about the earth, I'll assume you agree with what is to follow:

WHAT WAS GOD'S ORIGINAL PURPOSE FOR THE EARTH?
Man to live in paradise worshipping God.
CAN THAT PURPOSE BE THWARTED?
Not by anyone.
WHAT IS GOD'S KINGDOM?
A government with “rulers” as you yourself said, who will rule over subjects.
WHERE ARE THESE SUBJECTS?
The earth.
HOW MANY PEOPLE USUALLY MAKE UP A GOVERNMENT COMPARED TO THE ONES THEY RULE OVER?
The Kingdom is for a specific purpose. It is made up of ones who have been on the earth, Jesus included, who have experienced trials and temptations and know and will have compasion and will judge us accordingly. And no one can make the charge: They don't know what it's like. They've been on earth.
If all the righteous were to go to heaven, then why didn't Jehovah simply create us in heaven, like the angels, and expel those who weren't fit for life, like satan and the demons. Why rather, did he put us on earth?
What would have happened had adam not sinned? How many would have gone to heaven then?
Not that many need to go to heaven, because they are going there for a purpose, they have a job to do, as the scriptures state.

[david]

Even though I would prefer a comment on what I just said before moving on, I won't really have access to the internet tommorow so, a quick reply to the 24 Elders, who I presume you are speaking of when you say:”they are surely not men, but angels.”

“And round about the throne there are twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones I saw seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.” (Revelation 4:4) Yes, instead of priests, there are 24 elders, enthroned and crowned like kings. These are the anointed ones of the Christian congregation, resurrected and occupying the heavenly position Jehovah promised them.

How do we know that?

First of all, they are wearing crowns. The Bible speaks of anointed Christians as gaining ‘an incorruptible crown’ and attaining to an endless life—immortality. (1 Corinthians 9:25; 15:53, 54) But since these 24 elders are sitting on thrones, the golden crowns in this context represent royal authority. (Compare Revelation 6:2; 14:14.) This supports the conclusion that the 24 elders portray Jesus’ anointed footstep followers in their heavenly position, for Jesus made a covenant with them to sit on thrones in his Kingdom. (Luke 22:28-30)

Only Jesus and these 24 elders—not even the angels—are described as ruling in heaven in Jehovah’s presence.

This harmonizes with the promise that Jesus made to the Laodicean congregation: “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne.” (Revelation 3:21) But the heavenly assignment of the 24 elders is not limited to governmental rule. In the introduction to the book of Revelation, John said of Jesus: “He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.” (Revelation 1:5, 6) These ones are both kings and priests. “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”—Revelation 20:6.

What is significant about the number 24, in that John sees 24 elders around the throne? In many respects, these were foreshadowed by the faithful priests of ancient Israel. The apostle Peter wrote to anointed Christians: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.’” (1 Peter 2:9) Interestingly, that ancient Jewish priesthood came to be divided into 24 divisions. Each division was assigned its own weeks in the year to serve before Jehovah, so that sacred service was rendered without a break. (1 Chronicles 24:5-19) It is fitting, then, that there are 24 elders depicted in John’s vision of the heavenly priesthood because this priesthood serves Jehovah continually, without ceasing. When completed, there will be 24 divisions, each with 6,000 conquerors, for Revelation 14:1-4 tells us that 144,000 (24 x 6,000) are “bought from among mankind” to stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Since the number 12 signifies a divinely balanced organization, 24 doubles—or strengthens—such an arrangement.

Let me now again, more briefly state the same thing, but in a slightly different way:

In the book of Revelation, the term pre·sby´te·roi occurs 12 times and is applied to spirit creatures. Their surroundings, dress, and actions give a clue as to their identity.

The apostle John had a vision of Jehovah’s throne in heaven, surrounded by 24 lesser thrones upon which were seated 24 elders dressed in white outer garments and having golden crowns upon their heads. (Re 4:1-4) As the vision continued, John saw the 24 elders not only repeatedly falling down in worship before Jehovah’s throne but also taking part in the various features of the vision as it progressed. (Re 4:9-11; 5:4-14; 7:9-17; 14:3; 19:4) Especially were they observed joining in the Kingdom proclamation to the effect that Jehovah had taken up his great power and had begun to rule as king.—Re 11:15-18.

In ancient Israel, “older men [elders] of Israel” represented and spoke for the entire nation. (Ex 3:16; 19:7) In the same way “elders” may stand for, or represent, the entire congregation of spiritual Israel. Therefore, the 24 elders seated on thrones about God might well represent the entire body of anointed Christians who, proving faithful till death, receive the promised reward of a heavenly resurrection and thrones near that of Jehovah. (Re 3:21) The number 24 is also significant, for this was the number of the divisions into which King David organized the priests to serve at Jerusalem’s temple. The anointed Christians are to be “a royal priesthood.”—1Pe 2:9; 1Ch 24:1-19; Lu 1:5-23, 57-66; Re 20:6

NICK, I REALLY VERY MUCH WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ON THE EARTH AND IT'S FUTURE, before discussing this further.

Thank you
david

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
The 24 elders are present at the start of the book of Revelation. I believe they are not men but Archangels or Princes, sons of God from way back.

I am cautious to assume agreement in any discussion because there are usually are areas of basic disagreement that prevent true dialogue. For example the assumption that men go to heaven needs to be sorted.

Those who spiritualise scripture often do so to bend it to fit their doctrinal stance.

[david]

I think you've been asked this before, but are you sure you weren't once a JW?
I have only ever had to explain to people that believe that 'all good people go to heaven' that that is not so, that there is a future hope on the earth as well. Based on your last post in the “let thy will be done in heaven” forum, I am actually beginning to believe, and this is hard for me to accept, but I am finally beginning to believe that in your own way, you have said that a paradise earth is the future of mankind.
And now, here, you say that “the assumption that men go to heaven needs to be sorted.” I have just went into brain shock. I've never come across this before. Just a sec, I'm going to see what you wrote on the other forum again.

[david]

John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

Rev 14: 1-3 talks about those who are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.

hmmm Proving that people go to heaven is harder than I thought, possibly because I have a cold and can't sleep and it's 6 in the morning. I should go back to bed.

Night.

david

[david]

Hey Nick.. I would appreciate you replying to my other comments before the following. This is my lunch break. I'll be working the rest of the day.

Some scriptures that speak of people going to heaven.

PHILIPPIANS 3:20
“As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,”

1 PETER 1:3-4
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU,”

ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”

1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”

REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

IN THE BIBLE, ANGELS AREN’T REALLY REFERRED TO AS “HOLY ONES.” THEY ARE HOLY AND ARE CALLED: “HOLY ANGELS,” BUT NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE “HOLY ONES.”

Basically, the following is going to state 2 things:
1 HOLY ONES, as referred to in the Bible ARE PEOPLE WHO RECEIVE THE KINGDOM.
2 THE KINGDOM IS HEAVENLY
Therefore, the holy ones go to heaven.

HOLY ONES RECEIVE THE KINGDOM
DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
DANIEL 7:21-22
““I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE HOLY ONES
Daniel was inspired to say that the Kingdom would be given not just to “someone like a son of man” (7:13) but also “to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.”—Daniel 7:27.
Who are these?
Revelation says of the Lamb, Christ Jesus: “You bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” It further says that they will become “priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.

REVELATION 14:1-3 where we find the other mention of the 144,000 also speaks of those “bought from the earth.”

All the spiritual brothers of Christ in the congregations are frequently called “holy ones.”—Ac 9:13; 26:10; Ro 1:7; 12:13; 2Co 1:1; 13:13.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:1-2
“Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters?”
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”

HOLY ONES OF REVELATION ALSO PEOPLE.
REVELATION 16:6
“because they poured out the blood of holy ones and of prophets. . . .”
REVELATION 17:6
“And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones . . . .”
REVELATION 18:24
“Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.””

As the “wife” of Christ, the entire congregation is represented as wearing bright, clean, fine linen, which stands for “the righteous acts of the holy ones.” (Re 19:7, 8) Against these, while they are on earth, Satan the Devil’s symbolic political “wild beast” is seen in vision waging war. (Re 13:3, 7) Thereby the endurance of the holy ones is severely tested, but they conquer by observing the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.—Re 13:10; 14:12.
THEIR HOPE
In a parallel vision Daniel saw a wild beast making war upon God’s holy ones; this was followed by a court scene in which “the Ancient of Days” gave judgment in favor of the holy ones and they were given an indefinitely lasting Kingdom, “the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens.”—Da 7:21, 22, 27.
These “holy ones” do not exercise kingly authority while on earth but must await their being united with Christ in the heavens. (Eph 1:18-21) They must first be ‘conquerors.’ (Re 3:21; compare Re 2:26, 27; 3:5, 12.) They are to act as priests and to rule as kings with Christ during his Thousand Year Reign. (Re 20:4, 6) The apostle Paul states that the holy ones will judge the world, as well as angels, evidently sharing in the execution of judgment on wicked ones.—1Co 6:2, 3; Re 2:26, 27.

WHERE DOES JESUS RULE? The prophet Daniel saw a vision of Jesus receiving the Kingdom, and his vision locates Jesus in heaven. (Daniel 7:13, 14)
Jesus often called himself “the Son of man.” (Matthew 10:23; 11:19; 16:28; 20:18, 28) This reminds us of the prophet Daniel’s reference to “a son of man.” Concerning a future heavenly event, Daniel said: “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.”—Daniel 7:13, 14.
This agrees with the way Jesus spoke of the Kingdom. He often called it “the kingdom of the heavens.” (Matthew 10:7; 11:11, 12)
It also agrees with Jesus’ words to Pilate when Jesus was on trial before him: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (John 18:36)

Speaking about the time when he would receive this rulership, Jesus told his apostles: “When the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones.” Jesus also said: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, . . . all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . These [unrighteous ones] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”—Matthew 19:28; 25:31, 32, 46.
These prophetic references to thrones and all the national groups indicate that the Kingdom is a government in which Jesus and some of his followers would be rulers over mankind. That government would have the power to cut off the unrighteous in death. Under Kingdom rule, however, those righteously disposed would receive God’s gift of eternal life.
Clearly, then, the Kingdom of God is a divinely institu
ted heavenly government.

[david]

For more than 1,500 years prior to Jesus’ coming as the promised Messiah, the fleshly nation of Israel was Jehovah’s special people. Despite constant reminders, the nation as a whole proved unfaithful.

When Jesus appeared, the nation rejected him. (John 1:11)

Thus, Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43)

The new nation is the anointed Christian congregation, born at Pentecost 33 C.E. Its first members were Jewish disciples of Jesus who accepted him as their heavenly King. (Acts 2:5, 32-36)

However, they were members of God’s new nation, not on the basis of their Jewish descent, but on the basis of faith in Jesus.

Thus, this new Israel of God was something unique—a spiritual nation. When the majority of the Jews refused to accept Jesus, the invitation to be part of the new nation was extended to the Samaritans and then to the Gentiles. The new nation was called “the Israel of God.”—Galatians 6:16.

ROMANS 9:6
“However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.””

ROMANS 2:28
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh.”

GALATIANS 3:7
“Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham.”

1 CORINTHIANS 7:19
“Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God’s commandments [does].”

the tribes of Israel mentioned in Revelation 7 are not natural Jews. this has already been commented on in detail, but I thought I'd add these scriptures about “the Isreal of God.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 01 2005,05:47)

“Where does it [the bible] say we go to heaven?  Is this reverse pychology Nick? I would be more apt to answer these questions if I felt that you read over what I put down.  Can we start with some basic, simple things, things we may agree on and go from there, before getting into all this revelation talk? Again, I refer you to “let thy will be done in heaven,” forum. Since you've been shy on disagreeing with anything I say about the earth, I'll assume you agree with what is to follow: WHAT WAS GOD'S ORIGINAL PURPOSE FOR THE EARTH?   Man to live in paradise worshipping God. CAN THAT PURPOSE BE THWARTED? Not by anyone. WHAT IS GOD'S KINGDOM? A government with “rulers” as you yourself said, who will rule over subjects.   WHERE ARE THESE SUBJECTS? The earth. HOW MANY PEOPLE USUALLY MAKE UP A GOVERNMENT COMPARED TO THE ONES THEY RULE OVER?   The Kingdom is for a specific purpose.  It is made up of ones who have been on the earth, Jesus included, who have experienced trials and temptations and know and will have compasion and will judge us accordingly.  And no one can make the charge: They don't know what it's like.  They've been on earth.   If all the righteous were to go to heaven, then why didn't Jehovah simply create us in heaven, like the angels, and expel those who weren't fit for life, like satan and the demons.  Why rather, did he put us on earth? What would have happened had adam not sinned?  How many would have gone to heaven then?   Not that many need to go to heaven, because they are going there for a purpose, they have a job to do, as the scriptures state.

Hi d,
We, who are reborn into Christ, are already with Christ in spirit at the right hand of the Father.
Coll 3.1f
” Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory”
But we are now unaware of our life there.
When Stephen fell asleep he called out
“Lord Jesus receive my spirit”
Our spirit goes to the Father's house at “death” instead of the Sheol or Hades fate of all prior to Jesus first earthly visit as in Lk 16. Now
“The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”
When we are awakened we put on the new heavenly body[1Cor15, 1 Thess 4]]which is like to the angels and the resurrected Son of God. We live on earth forever which is our inheritance. The kingdom “of heaven” is ruled from heaven but is on earth for men. The new Jerusalem is on the new earth.
Where is the lake of fire?
Is paradise another name for heaven or is it where the tree of life is?

[david]

Nick
You quoted Col 3:1 which speaks of the annointed being raised up with Christ. To where?
EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus,”

So, you're saying that eventually, if you remain faithful, you will have a heavenly body while on earth. Is that right? Please, just say what you believe in plain English. If it's true, then why are you unwilling to say what you believe?

I agree that the kingdom is ruled from heaven, since it's rulers and judges are said to go there, and that it or they will rule over the earth. (Rev 5:9,10)
But a heavenly kingdom is different from kingdom of heaven.
Do you believe as some that the kingdom we are told to pray for is heaven?

dave.
cheers

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2005,03:09)

Nick You quoted Col 3:1 which speaks of the annointed being raised up with Christ.  To where? EPHESIANS 2:6 “and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus,” So, you're saying that eventually, if you remain faithful, you will have a heavenly body while on earth.  Is that right?  Please, just say what you believe in plain English.  If it's true, then why are you unwilling to say what you believe? I agree that the kingdom is ruled from heaven, since it's rulers and judges are said to go there, and that it or they will rule over the earth. (Rev 5:9,10) But a heavenly kingdom is different from kingdom of heaven. Do you believe as some that the kingdom we are told to pray for is heaven? dave. cheers

Hi David,
Your Ephesians quote says the same as Collosians 3.1f. That situation exists now for those in Christ but where are they physically? Here on earth.
To be raised up is to be resurrected.
Resurrection is not to heaven but to meet with the Lord in the air[1Thess 4]

[NickHassan]

Hi d,
The JWs teach that there is one true religion and one true church.[read between the lines]
They say that you can recognise true christians by these things;

Love for one another
Respect for the Bible
Honouring the Name of God.
Preaching.
Having no part of the world.

So it by works we are saved? We do not have to be born again? We just join the JWs and all is well?

Sorry but Jesus gave his life for us and we do not take his work so cheaply.

[david]

Nick said:
“Your Ephesians quote says the same as Collosians 3.1f. That situation exists now for those in Christ but where are they physically? Here on earth.”

I thought that scripture in Ephesians 2:6 said they would be seated together in “heavenly places” with Jesus Christ.

[david]

Nick said:
“They say that you can recognise true christians by these things;
Love for one another
Respect for the Bible
Honouring the Name of God.
Preaching.
Having no part of the world.”

Are any of these things a bad thing Nick?

Again, I'll pick out just one, the first one, like before:
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
Jesus said it Nick. Jesus said it.
So Yes, love would be a distinguishing mark. Guess what, if you don't have love among your fellow believers, something is wrong and you should seriously question your surroundings. For an extreme example, if you are a catholic in Germany and your at war with the US and you shoot and kill a Catholic in the US, how is that love?

NO, IT'S NOT BY WORKS WE ARE SAVED, but faith. The book of James however makes it clear that “faith without works is dead.” It says that a few different times in different ways. It's not the works that bring salvation, it's the faith, but, it is an unescapable fact: If you have faith, you will have works.
1 JOHN 5:3
“For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,”

If you have faith that a storm is coming Nick, is saying you believe, no, is actually believing with all your heart that a storm is coming, is that enough? Enough to save you? Well, if you had faith that a storm was coming, it would move you to action wouldn't it? And that faith would save you, but without works it would be dead. (James 2:26) See James Chapter one and two.

“We just join JW's and all is well.” you said.

No Nick, rather, “He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.” (Mat 24:13)

I'm not really sure what you meant by that last statement, “all is well.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2005,05:15)

Nick said: “Your Ephesians quote says the same as Collosians 3.1f. That situation exists now for those in Christ but where are they physically? Here on earth.” I thought that scripture in Ephesians 2:6 said they would be seated together in “heavenly places” with Jesus Christ.

Hi d,
Eph 2.
” But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ[by grace you have been saved!]and RAISED US UP WITH HIM , AND SEATED US WITH HIM iN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS”

This is now David.

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Sep. 02 2005,05:36)

Nick said: “They say that you can recognise true christians by these things; Love for one another Respect for the Bible Honouring the Name of God. Preaching. Having no part of the world.” Are any of these things a bad thing Nick? Again, I'll pick out just one, the first one, like before: JOHN 13:35 “By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”” Jesus said it Nick.  Jesus said it. So Yes, love would be a distinguishing mark.  Guess what, if you don't have love among your fellow believers, something is wrong and you should seriously question your surroundings.  For an extreme example, if you are a catholic in Germany and your at war with the US and you shoot and kill a Catholic in the US, how is that love? NO, IT'S NOT BY WORKS WE ARE SAVED, but faith.  The book of James however makes it clear that “faith without works is dead.”  It says that a few different times in different ways.  It's not the works that bring salvation, it's the faith, but, it is an unescapable fact: If you have faith, you will have works. 1 JOHN 5:3 “For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,” If you have faith that a storm is coming Nick, is saying you believe, no, is actually believing with all your heart that a storm is coming, is that enough?  Enough to save you?  Well, if you had faith that a storm was coming, it would move you to action wouldn't it?  And that faith would save you, but without works it would be dead. (James 2:26)  See James Chapter one and two. “We just join JW's and all is well.” you said. No Nick, rather, “He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.” (Mat 24:13) I'm not really sure what you meant by that last statement, “all is well.”

Hi David,
Most religious groups profess that we need to receive God's salvation in some form or other. A decision at least to “receive Christ”is popular. But the Watchtower site does not even seem to say that is necessary. All you have to do is mix with the right people, respect the bible, love God's name and do good works.
How does that compare with the demand of Jesus that we be born again of water and the Spirit? How does that compare with what Peter taught at Pentecost that we must repent, believe and be baptised? How does that compare with the actions of Paul and the apostles in Acts?

Are your teachers greater than Jesus or Peter or Paul?

” Anyone who wants to save his own life will lose it”

[david]

Another thought just came to mind:
Nick, you said: “The JWs teach that there is one true religion and one true church.[read between the lines]”

THE SAME. THE SAME. THE SAME. THE SAME. THE SAME.

Early Chrisitianity taught that there was one true religion and one true church. (Read between the lines.)

The Jews who had a religion that was no longer acceptable had to become Christians, didn't they? If you had been there, what would you have done?
“One lord, one faith.” (Eph 4:5)

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