- This topic is empty.
- Posts
People following the Master would imitate the master and be “lovely people.”
People not following the Master would be “lovers of themselves,” as Paul described people living in the last days. (2 Tim 3) In fact, many claiming to be Christian would actually kill their fellow believers, the ultimate proof of not being loving.He was loving. He had warmth and deep feeling. He was often tender in the way he delt with people. He was approachable and kind and attracted people to him. Even children felt at ease.
And his followers would similarly show a very distince kind of love:
“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35)Hi david,
Jesus was truth and sometimes the truth is not nice.
Matt 8
21And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. “
Matt 12
” 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”
Matt 23
” 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”And Matt 15
” 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.”I know you're trying to make a point. I just don't understand what that is. Yes, he could show righteous indignation and be stern when called for.
But, we are commanded by Jesus to show love for our fellow believers as Jesus showed love for us.
I think part of JW's being “lovely people” as you say, is that they demonstrate this love, especially for fellow believers.Well David and Nick…we are hitting and missing gentleman (you two I mean). Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.
David, I will continue a raport with the witnesses on Saturday. I will let you know how they go.Hi david,
Belief alone never saved anyone.
Obedience to what belief shows us is more important.
The JW's cannot save.
They strive to enter the 144,000 yet none can say they are “good enough”Only God saves through Jesus.
You must be reborn from above.Hi Nick, you wrongly state:
Quote Belief alone never saved anyone.
Obedience to what belief shows us is more important.
The JW's cannot save.
They strive to enter the 144,000 yet none can say they are “good enough”
As Casey said,
Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.
As Rejocesing said:
I am studying every criticism that I hear about [Jehovah's Witnesses]. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers.Nick, sometimes I get the idea you purposefully say wrong things in an effort to turn people away from Jehovah's Witnesses, or to paint them in an untruthful light. Misrepresenting them only shows the truth, Nick. You have to realize that.
Hi david,
As soon as I see them rejecting their doctrinal falsehoods, bringing men to salvation in the Son of God and then being used to heal and do other works in the Spirit of God then I may be interested in their assembly.Otherwise it remains just another group of sincere but deceived men following each other IMHO
Oh, you mean “doctrinal falsehoods” like:
“Belief alone never saved anyone.
Obedience to what belief shows us is more important.
The JW's cannot save.
They strive to enter the 144,000 yet none can say they are “good enough””Sorry Nick, but as I quoted from Rejocesing above, “Most [criticisms against JW's] are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers.”
This appears to be the case with you. Where have I or any JW ever said: “JW's save?” In saying: “The JW's cannot save,” you imply that we believe “JW's save.” Show me something from this thread where I said that.
Here you are going accusing us again, when it is you who are a false accuser, just like Rejocesing (the starter of this subject) said.“Belief alone saves.” Have I ever said this Nick? Belief will move one to action, so if you truly believe, then that belief will save you, (if you act)
But simply saying: “I believe in Jesus” as many do, what good is that? It's meaningless if they don't believe in Jesus enough to live by his words.
So again, here you accuse Jehovah's Witnesses falsesly.And again:
“They strive to enter the 144,000 yet none can say they are “good enough””
Nick, I know of no JW who is striving to be one of the 144,000. Not one. And for “none” being able to say they are “good enough,” well, also wrong. Simpy wrong. Sometimes I wonder which anti-JW sites you visit that make this stuff up.I am studying every criticism that I hear about [Jehovah's Witnesses]. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. –Rejocesing.
PS. I see now that you know what IMHO means, you are using it quite a bit more.
david
Hi david,
Acts 2
” 42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. “Acts 14
” 3Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. “Acts 15
” 12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.”Heb 2
” 4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.”Tell us of the work of God done through the Jw's david.
I'd rather get back to those false accusations you keep making. You're telling me what I'm supposed to believe. I know what I believe. You have a history of misrepresenting what we believe, to suit your purposes.
Why? Don't you feel bad about this?
Hi david,
The bible tells you what you are supposed to believe
and we help to show you what is in the bible.Yes, but what does that have to do with your stating falsehoods about what we believe?
Quote Hi david,
Belief alone never saved anyone.
Obedience to what belief shows us is more important.
The JW's cannot save.
They strive to enter the 144,000 yet none can say they are “good enough”Aren't you embarresed to use such tactics?
Hi david
you said
'Do I believe that t8, Nick, H or yourself have the hope of glory, Christ in you?
I don't even believe I do. 'MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.”A witness to “all the nations,” to “the most distant part of the earth.”
I was just on the JW official website. And I stumbled on the page of different languages that the website is available in–265 are listed.
http://www.watchtower.org/languages.htmIt seems we speak in many tongues. The list of languages just struck me.
Quote (Debra @ Oct. 02 2006,09:56) Hi Is 1:18
Thank you, the way I understand is through an example in my life. When I gave birth, part of me went into my children…Empties Himself.. I perceive to mean emptied His seed into Mary the Mother of His child Jesus.
He is the same because He is God.
I'm still me intact, eventhough apart of me is somewhere else in my children.
Yes God can empty Himself.
Jesus is the same because He is God's seed. He is God in essence.
The last one, I havn't anything to say yet I don't have a thought on it.
Nice post…well put.Blessings
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,10:35) Hi Is 1.18,
You say“The Word did empty Himself and took on the form of a bondservant….but I don't believe it was deity that He emptied Himself of, as that conclusion would introduce a lot contradictions into scripture. For instance, how could we reconcile these two verses:”
But such a statement presupposes that Jesus WAS a DEITY.
He was…Quote He could not give up his status as a deity unless he had such status.
agreed…BTW I didn't propose that He did give up His deity…..so I don't know here this is leading….Quote A deity is a god that is worshipped.
I disagree. Men worship whatever they want to…including pieces of wood and stone. Apparently dung beetles were/are worshipped in Egypt by pagans….Men should worship the one actual deity, YHWH.
Quote How can one be emptied of DEITY?
Exactly! I can't possibly fathom how this could happan….I'm beginning to wonder if you in fact read my post at all….here is what I wrote:
“Obviously if the Logos divested Himself of that which defined the intrinsic nature of his being, it could not be legitimately said of Him that He is the same yesterday, today and forever….His ontology MUST have remained unchanged. This is true no matter what you believe He existed AS before His incarnation. So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes. This would explain why He was able to receive worship, was called God (in the nominative and vocative), and fulfilled prophecies that only YHWH could fulfill etc etc…while still a man.”
Quote It is something you are or are not, not a disposable state.
I agree, you can't become a divine being any more than you can become an eternal being….Quote Can you show me any scriptures that say that Jesus was a deity, a god that was worshipped, before coming as a man?
John 1:1-4
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Philippians 2:6
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,In John 5:23 we are told that all will honor the Son even as (i.e., in the exact same way) as we honor the Father, and what is worship but the highest possible form of honor?
The Father commanded the angels to worship Him:
Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”and indeed Yahshua will be worshipped in Heaven:
Revelation 5:12-14
12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.The context unmistakably bears out that this worship goes well beyond mere deference (the kind of proskuneo allowed to be recieved by men). Yahshua was worshipped as deity, and we both agree that He did not BECOME divine….
Quote I do not accept that the Word who was with God was part of that God and worshipped AS that God or was worshipped WITH that God but await your evidence of such things.
Not once have I ever said that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a “part of God”…..so i'm not going to submit evidence for something I don't actually hold to, and have never postulated…Quote Your use of ONTOLOGY presupposes that all divine beings are equal and since you say there is only one divine being then you have to say that he was still part of God
I don't follow your convoluted logic here…and I have not once written that The Logos was a “part of God”…..Quote and not a son of God.
Yahshua is the Son of God but I don't think He was called this because He was the pre-incarnate progeny of The Father. I also do not believe the Father spawned a whole legion of “Sons”, with the foremost of them being The Logos. This is not what Scripture teaches…and neither should we….Quote But scripture mentions many other gods, not gods that are worshipped or deities but called God by God's Spirit in scripture.
I maintain that these “gods” that you mention are in fact false gods. This is what scripture explicitly bears out:Jeremiah 2:11
“Has a nation changed gods
When they were not gods?
But My people have changed their glory
For that which does not profit.Acts 14:15
15and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God,WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM1 Corinthians 8:4
4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.1 Corinthians 10:20
No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.Galatians 4:8-9
8Howbeit then,
when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?Also see: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 5:7; 16:20;
God considers the “gods” false gods, demons….That was why Paul devoted a significant portion of text in his letters to calling people out of the paganist practice of believing in more than one deity. This is because to believe in more than one divine being is to adhere to the polytheism . Something that YHWH through Isaiah, Jeremiah and Paul (predominantly) contented earnestly to dispel.
And there is no god beside YHWH:
Isaiah 43:10,11
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:5,14,18,21,22
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:… 14Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God… 18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else…. 21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me….. 22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Ephesians. 4:4-6
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.There are frequent, strong, unambiguous statements of EXCLUSIVITY to deity by the one God.There cannot be a primary and a secondary God because there is only one God – He is in a metaphysical category alone, scripture couldn’t be clearer on this matter. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are false gods and not really gods at all.
Only ONE God, ONE savior, ONE Creator…..and NONE like Him.
Quote have never heard you claim that the other gods or ELOHIM, angelic beings are also part of God but await your statement on this too.
Exactly…..I have never claimed thisQuote Again I do not accept that emptying can be read, “not really emptying but just not using”.
I didn't infer that…here is what I wrote:“So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes.”
“Given that He apparently emptied Himself of the independent usage of the divine attributes…”
Quote He was made alike to us in all ways except sin so since none of us were born WITH such unsed powers then it would mean he did not HAVE THEM either.
None of us were the product of the union of The Holy Spirit and a human either….Quote The quaint thought that he was still worshipped or earth[proskneo] proves he is STILL a deity must be matched with evidence that he was worshipped as a deity in heaven.
If He allowed Himself to be worshipped and was not the one true God – then He was guilty of the most pernicious form of blasphemy….He put Himself in a place that YHWH alone occupies. Since you and I both agree that someone cannot BECOME divine then it stands to reason that He was always was true deity….Scripture also attest to this – John 1:1, John 8:58, Phil 2:6, Hebrews 1:10…
Quote You cannot have it both ways and say his deity was combined with God in heaven but separate from God on earth.
Huh?Quote And if you do you will also have to produce evidence the Spirit is also worshipped as a deity in heaven and on earth for the equal trinity theory to hold water.
Why am I constantly being asked to defend things that I have not affirmed…..?Quote He was a divine being
There is only ONE divine being – YHWH….are you now saying that Yahshua is YHWH?Quote above the angels
The Creator of Angels, in fact:John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himQuote with glory of his own seen by the witnesses on the mountain and he shed all those advantages
What advantages speci
fically?Quote and powers to be just a spirit being and the Spirit added the third dimension of a human body through Mary so that he was alike to us and EMPTY of power and Glory.
Could you elaborate on what you have written here?Quote What is this restriction on the INDEPENDANT USE OF his powers? You mean God did not anoint him with His power but he just used his own on instruction from God?
The way I have read the Gospels I understand that He divested Himself entirely of the independant (autonomous) use of the divine attributes to take on the form of a lowly bondservant. And he operated exclusively by the power of the Spirit….This appears to me to make the best sense of the biblical dataQuote Then what of Acts 10.38?
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”
Indeed God was in Him….I have never disputed this.Quote Did he have two lots of powers? Heb 13
” 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
refers not to his tent body as that dies, but to his inner being, the person of Jesus, the Son of God, the Word of God. He is the one who came in the flesh, and not God.
According to John the Word was God and the Word became flesh….how do you explain this?According to Paul the pre-incarnate Yahshua existed (huparcho) in the form (morphe) of God, and took on the form (morphe) of a bondservant….how do you explain this?
Acording to the writer of Hebrews it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua Who “Laid the foundations of the Earth”, when the Psalmist of Psa 102:25 unambiguously states that it was YHWH Who did this….how do you explain this?
Quote Like all men he was a vessel which the Father filled with His Spirit at the Jordan.
It doesn't actually say that He was “filled with His Spirit” in the text:Matthew 3:16
16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”Quote After his victory all his new powers from God Himself remained with him and greater glory yet was given him to sit with God at God's right hand on the throne.
I don't remember reading this anywhere in scripture…where would I find it?Quote God was in him.
2Cor 5
“19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
Again, I don't dispute that God was in Him…..Quote Col 1.
“19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; “
Col 2
” 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. “
Colossian 2:9 records“ For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes) dwells in bodily form.” (NASB). “Dwells” is the translation from the Greek word “katoikeo”, meaning “to permanently settle down in a dwelling.” “Fullness” is from the Greek word “pleroma” indicating that which “is filled up.” Theotes is used in this verse as an abstract noun for ‘theos’. It does not designate that Jesus was filled with the Father Himself. Paul would have used the noun ’theos’ if he wanted to convey this (note that Jesus is also said to be IN the Father in John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21).Quote Now of course he could not be that God which was in him.
I agree that He could not be the person of the Spirit of God that was in Him…..Quote God was in him in the fullness of deity. I hope this answers your queries.
If Paul wanted to convey the sentiment that the fulness of the Father was in Yahshua he would not have used the word “theotes” in Col 2:9 – instead He would have chosen to use “theos”….This question was not addressed:
2. What kind of being was the pre-incarnate Logos?
Sorry if I appeared short…there was a lot to address and I have other posts to respond to….
Blessings
Hi,
This thjread is about the JWs so I have transferred the post to “is Jesus God”JWs using their warped logic trying to show that Jesus is Michael
is similar to saying that because
Jesus was born in Bethlehem[Lk 2.4]
and
Jesus was born in a house[Matt 2,11]
that
Bethlehem is therefore a house.Such a statement has equal biblical validity to saying Jesus is Michael..
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
