Jehovah's Witness Church

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2007,00:29)

THE SABBATH–IS THE SABBATH LAW BINDING ON CHRISTIANS? 4TH COMMANDMENT: “Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work.” (Ex. 20:8-10) INTRODUCTION TO 10 COMMANDMENTS: “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.” (Ex. 20:2) Note the way that the 4TH Commandment reads at Deuteronomy 5:12-15: “Keeping the sabbath day to hold it sacred, . . . you must remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and Jehovah your God proceeded to bring you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. That is why Jehovah your God commanded you to carry on the sabbath day.” In fact, this sabbath law was to be a sign between Jehovah and whom? Only Israel. At Exodus 31:13 it is written: “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘Especially my sabbaths you are to keep, for it is a sign between me and you during your generations that you may know that I Jehovah am sanctifying you.’” (See also Ezekiel 20:10-12.) And while some claim that the sabbath law applied from Eden onward, Moses plainly stated to his people: “It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us, all those of us alive here today.”—Deut. 5:3. “OHLAM”–AN INDEFINITE PERIOD OF TIME But was not that sabbath to be a sign between Jehovah God and his people “forever”? (Ex. 31:17, Byington’s translation, also The New English Bible) No, because the Hebrew word here rendered “forever” is ‛oh·laḿ and merely means an indefinite period or uncertain time. Ex. 31:16, 17: “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [“a perpetual covenant,” RS]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.” Notice that sabbath observance was a sign between Jehovah and Israel; this would not be the case if everyone else were also obligated to keep the Sabbath. The Hebrew word rendered “perpetual” in RS is ‛oh·laḿ, which basically means a period of time that, from the standpoint of the present, is indefinite or hidden from sight but of long duration. That can mean forever, but not necessarily so. At Numbers 25:13 the same Hebrew word is applied to the priesthood, which later ended, according to Hebrews 7:12. The fact that this word is used in regard to ever so many other features of the Law arrangement that have obviously passed away shows that it does not necessarily mean forever.—Ex. 12:14, 17, 24; 27:21; 28:43; 29:28. JESUS AND THE APOSTLES Did Jesus observe the sabbath? The religious leaders of his day found fault with Jesus in this regard, but the fact remains that as a Jew born under the Law, he did indeed observe the sabbath. (Gal. 4:4) He kept the sabbath as God’s Word directed. When challenged, he argued, not that the sabbath did not apply to him, but, rather, that it was “lawful to do a fine thing on the sabbath.” (Matt. 12:12) However, he also said that he came “to fulfill” the Law. (Matt. 5:17) How did this affect his disciples? After Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension into heaven did they continue to keep the sabbath? No. But they did take advantage of local customs to preach to the people who usually gathered on the sabbath. Thus we read that Paul and his companions entered a synagogue on the sabbath. Why? Because that is when people were there. (Acts 13:14-16) And it was their listeners, accustomed to gathering on the sabbath, that asked that they be permitted to hear more on the following sabbath. (Acts 13:42-44) Whenever the sabbath is mentioned in the book of Acts, it is in connection with non-Christian worship, either at a synagogue or other place of prayer.—Acts 16:11-13; 17:1-3; 18:4. On the other hand, mention is made that on certain occasions Christ’s disciples came together on the first day of the week. (John 20:19, 26; Acts 20:7) While this does not authorize Christians to make the first day of the week a sacred one, in the absence of any specific commands to that effect in the Christian Greek Scriptures, it certainly does imply that the early Christians no longer felt bound to the seventh day as a special one for worship. “UNDER LAW”? At Romans 6:14, it is written to Christians: “You are not under law.” But the claim is made by some who hold out for sabbath-day observance that only those who break God’s law can be said to be “under Law,” and that all who keep it are “free from the Law.” But such an argument finds no support in God’s Word. Instead, the Bible says: “We know that all the things the Law says it addresses to those under the Law.”—Rom. 3:19. Also refuting their position are the words of the apostle Paul found at Galatians 3:23, where it states that “before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law.” Certainly Jesus was not a breaker of the Law, and yet we read of him: “When the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law.” This one scripture of itself shows how specious is the argument that only those who break the Law could be said to be “under” it.—Gal. 4:4. WARNED AGAINST OBSERVING DAYS While not under the ten commandments, Christians are admonished in line with the principles found in the ten commandments. Thus they are warned against worshiping other gods, against idolatry, against profaning God’s name, against murder, adultery, theft, bearing false witness and against covetousness; they are also commanded to honor their father and mother. But we look in vain from Matthew through Revelation for any express command to observe the seventh day of the week. On the contrary, Christians are specifically commanded: “Let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come.” (Col. 2:16, 17) In particular were the Galatian Christians reproved for observing certain days: “Now that you . . . have come to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things and want to slave for them over again? You are scrupulously observing days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.”—Gal. 4:9-11. That sabbath observance was not obligatory upon early Christians can be seen from Romans 14:5: “One man judges one day as above another; another man judges one day as all others; let each man be fully convinced in his own mind.” The apostle Paul could not have put the matter this way if Christians were still bound by the ten commanments. In this regard it is indeed of interest that such early church “fathers” as Justin Martyr and Tertullian put sabbath keeping in the same class as circumcision. GOD THROUGH CHRIST MADE AN END TO THE LAW Very clearly the Scriptures state that God through Christ made an end to the Law. (Eph. 2:14-18; Col. 2:13, 14) Some persons claim that God made an end only to the so-called ceremonial law, but not to the Ten Commandments. But there is no Scriptural warrant for such a separation. In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus quoted from both the ten commandments and the ceremonial features of the Law and made no distinction between them.—Matt. 5:21-42. In further support of this, note the inspired words appearing at Romans 7:4-12. The re we read that Christians “were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ,” and, as a result, they “have been discharged from the Law.” From what Law? From only the so-called ceremonial law? Not at all, for the inspired writer goes on to quote from the Ten Commandments, “You must not covet,” showing that by “Law” he meant not only the so-called ceremonial law, but the entire law given through Moses, including the Ten Commandments. LAW VERSUS UNDESERVED KINDNESS Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures the law of Moses is contrasted with the “grace” or undeserved kindness that came in with Jesus Christ. Thus we read that “the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17, Authorized Version) Yes, “Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.” By “end” is not meant merely the goal of the Law but its finish. Christians are therefore counseled: “Sin must not be master over you, seeing that you are not under law but under undeserved kindness.”—Rom. 10:4; 6:14. The Law served its purpose, preparing the Israelites for their Messiah, even as we read: “The Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.” (Gal. 3:24, 25) For whom was the Law a tutor? Only for the Jews. Thus when Paul preached to non-Jews in Athens, some of them became believers, Christians, although they had never been under the Mosaic law as a tutor.—Acts 17:22-34. THE “LAW” OF LOVE “You were, of course, called for freedom, brothers; only do not use this freedom as an inducement for the flesh, but through love slave for one another. For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Gal. 5:13, 14) If Christians had been relieved only from the so-called ceremonial law, such a freedom would not constitute an inducement to the flesh. But clearly the argument is that just because they are no longer under the Mosaic law, including its Ten Commandments, they are not free to act with disregard for others, for they are still obligated by the law of love. Showing that such obligation to love takes the place of commandments found in the Ten Commandments (and not just of the so-called ceremonial law) are the words found at Romans 13:8-10: “Do not you people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. For the law code, ‘You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,’ and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor,’ therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.” Because of the fundamental importance of love, Jesus did not refer to any of the Ten Commandments when asked what was the greatest one, but showed that the greatest commandment was to love God with one’s whole heart, soul, mind and strength.—Mark 12:29, 30. The Fourth Commandment, however, is not without meaning for Christians. They do keep a sabbath, not one day out of seven, but a continual sabbath, the sabbath that God entered into upon completing his works of creation. (Ps. 95:8-11; Heb. 3:7 to 4:8) Yes, “there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God,” wrote Paul; “let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest.” How? By exercising faith in God’s provision for salvation; by desisting from selfish works and, instead, using our lives to glorify God. “The man that has entered into God’s rest has also himself rested from his own works [works at self-justification, selfish works], just as God did from his own” works of creation. (Heb. 4:9-11) DOES THIS SCRIPTURE TEACH THAT CHRISTIANS ARE STILL UNDER THE LAW? MATTHEW 5:17-19 ““Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens.” What is “the Law and the Prophets”? MATTHEW 5:17 ““Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill;” MATTHEW 7:12 ““All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” MATTHEW 22:40 “On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”” LUKE 16:16 ““The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it.” JOHN 1:45 “Philip found Na·thańa·el and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naźa·reth.”” ROMANS 3:21 “But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets;” “the Law and the Prophets,” in the Bible, seems to be used as a generic term meaning the entire Hebrew Scriptures and not simply the first and second sections of those Scriptures (Mt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16). When Paul referred to “the Law,” he quoted from Isaiah.—1Co 14:21; Isa 28:11. The phrase “the law and the prophets” does not seem to indicate the Mosaic Law.  I believe it is referring to the whole of the Hebrew scriptures. david

Good post David,
I do not see the relevance of Paul preaching to the gentiles at Athens having any relationship with the Law though. Gentiles were never under it.

[kenrch]

“MATTHEW 5:17
““Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill;”

WHICH LAW?

Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Which law is Rev. 12:17 speaking of?

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who **keep the commandments of God** and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Who are these saints in the last days?

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Let me guess, Jews?

[kenrch]

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Which law was placed inside the ark? And written by God?

The tradition of the catholic church. Plain and simple.

Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 ***** You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”*******

By rights that should be enough. Jesus said it.

2Cor4:4,

kenrch

[NickHassan]

Hi,
JWs doorknock in attempted obedience to the commandment to preach the gospel [another commandment] but they do not preach just the Word of God but their own doctrines and as such are not being obedient as many of those teachings are not directly from scripture.

[david]

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but [JW's] do not preach just the Word of God but their own doctrines

–Nick

As an example of one of our “doctrines”, see the top post on this page, to which Nick responded: “Good post David”

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JWs doorknock

Yes they do. I can't remember if I put a link down, but there is a documentary coming out on them, called “knocking.”

See:

http://www.knocking.org

There are three clips you can view. This film is made by the son of a JW, someone who doesn't hold to our beliefs but finds our story interesting.

This page shows the three clips available on youtube:
http://www.knocking.org/Video_Highlights.html

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
JWs are not totally deceived in their doctrines. They do grasp some truth. They do base some of their beliefs firmly on scriptural rock. But they also indulge in some wild speculations and greek logic and they derive doctrines from one verse falling into the same trap as those they love to oppose, the trinitarians.

But their master seems to be their denomination. Like the catholics they seem to believe their leadership is infallible. Their faithfulness to their denomination blinds them and makes them seem to believe ALL they teach is truth.

That master will not be the one they face as judge.
They should find their own true faith and not follow fools into the same pit.

[Proclaimer]

Back to the original question:

“Is this a scripturally sound church”.

The answer is no.

A scripturally sound Church is any part of the Body of Christ.

E.g., The Church in Pergamon are those that belong to God that reside in that city. The Church in Pricilla and Aquilla's house are those that belong to the universal church that reside in that house.

So the JWs do not fit that explanation.

I guess you could say the Church in the Jehovah Witness organisation. Then that way you are addressing the true believers that reside or go to that denomination/cult.

Surely not all JWs are true believers and certainly some of their doctrines could discourage salvation too.

[david]

Quote

Back to the original question: “Is this a scripturally sound church”. The answer is no.

Based on what?
JW's resemble the actions and attitudes and work of the first century Christians and words of Jesus and the Bible writers, better than anyone, by far.

The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph:
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. . . . All are brothers.”
(Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6)

Quote

A scripturally sound Church is any part of the Body of Christ. E.g., The Church in Pergamon are those that belong to God that reside in that city. The Church in Pricilla and Aquilla's house are those that belong to the universal church that reside in that house. So the JWs do not fit that explanation.

Could you explain this better.

Quote

Surely not all JWs are true believers and certainly some of their doctrines could discourage salvation too.

Could you explain again what your definition of “true believer” is….

dave

[Proclaimer]

In short a true believer is not one who belongs to the right denomination or cult, but one who belongs to Christ and his body.

A true believer believes that Yeshua is the Messiah and son of God/YHWH. A true believer is baptised into Christ and repents of his sin. A true believer is connected to God (who is Spirit) by our spirit. A true believer loves those who belong to God. A true believer has salvation and Christ who started a work in him will complete it and never leave such a person.

[david]

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A true believer believes that Yeshua is the Messiah and son of God/YHWH. A true believer is baptised into Christ and repents of his sin. A true believer is connected to God (who is Spirit) by our spirit. A true believer loves those who belong to God. A true believer has salvation and Christ who started a work in him will complete it and never leave such a person.

So JW's are true believers. Now that that's settled….

Oh, but you also said this:

Quote

In short a true believer is not one who belongs to the right denomination or cult, but one who belongs to Christ and his body.

One belongs to Christ if you listen to his voice. You keep using the phrase: “denomination or cult.”
Here's the thing. The word “denomination” exists because there are many forms of so called Christianity. When there was only one form, true Christianity, you couldn't call it a denomination. If that same true Christianity still existed or exists today, it would be called a denomination. Denominations are not wrong or bad because they are denominations–they are wrong because the Christ is not divided and does not disagree with himself, therefore, two groups that conflict and war and say opposite things cannot BOTH represent Christ. Yet all this means is that at the very least, all denominations but one are wrong, and at the most, they are all wrong.

JW's, you'll find, large and small, English, French, Korean, women and men, all listen to Christ. They have all made that choice, repented and were baptized, as you said.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Mar. 09 2007,05:20)

So JW's are true believers. Now that that's settled….

Surely that couldn't be a true statement david.

In any group such as Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, JWs, whatever; you couldn't expect that 100% of their members are true believers.

But you would expect that when talking of the Body of Christ (the Church).

[Cult Buster]

t8

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Back to the original question: “Is this a scripturally sound church”. The answer is no.

The “Jehovah's Witnesses” contradict their own “bible”.

In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God.

Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.”

Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.

Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Who do you say the Alpha and Omega is?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen,

“I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”

It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.”

So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.

Here is a strong proof text that Jesus is God because both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega.

Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18.

Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”

Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last.

Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says,

“Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”

Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.

Here again we see Jesus is God and the Jehovah's Witness church is in confusion once again.

[david]

Posted: Mar. 15 2007,05:57 EDIT QUOTE
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“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God.

Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.”

CB, this is laughable. I'm sorry, but I have attempted to have this conversation with you. You're too busy to actually have a conversation with a JW. You're a busy guy, you said. Or scared, or something. Yet, you attempt to show others how to have one.

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So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.

In the Alpha and Omega thread, I have shown several reasons why this is not the case. But, I realize you are not able to actually have a conversation with me on this, so your telling others who to apparently convince JW's that they are wrong is …. so many words come to mind.

You are all talk. But when someone actually tries to converse with you, you are suddenly busy, or silent, or just keep repeating the same posts ad infinitum.

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Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last.

This too I address in that thread on that subject. But obviously, you are completely wrong. Jehovah is the first and last in that he is God Almighty, king of eternity. Jesus is firstborn from the dead (actually, check those scriptures and the context and you'll note this) and he is the last to be raised to immortal life by Jehovah. from now on, he is the resurrection and the judge.

As I noted, T8 the moderator and creator of this website can be called the first and the last of this website. He created it and will be around to see it's finish. Nick, could be called the first and the last in that he is always the first to speak on any subject and always has to get the last word in.
Your reasoning is false. Logic suggests this. So does the Bible.

I say this again:

Cult Buster, if you ever want to actually follow your words and have a conversation, I would love that. But I imagine you are still too busy.
david

[Cult Buster]

David

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As I noted, T8 the moderator and creator of this website can be called the first and the last of this website.  He created it and will be around to see it's finish.  Nick, could be called the first and the last in that he is always the first to speak on any subject and always has to get the last word in.

You have a strange way of interpreting (twisting and perverting) scripture.

David

Quote

As I noted, T8 the moderator and creator of this website can be called the first and the last of this website.  He created it and will be around to see it's finish.  Nick, could be called the first and the last in that he is always the first to speak on any subject and always has to get the last word in.

I find this a common practice with “Jehovah's Witnesses”. That is why they have their own corrupted bible version nwt; the evidence of a cult.

Their own Watchtower “bible” contradicts them.  LOOK AGAIN!

   In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God.

Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.”

Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.

Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Who do you say the Alpha and Omega is?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen,

“I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”

It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.”

So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.

Here is a strong proof text that Jesus is God because both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega.

Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18.

Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”

Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last.

Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says,

“Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”

Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.

Here again we see Jesus is God and the Jehovah's Witness church is in confusion once again.

[Cult Buster]

Faith First  

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The following shows who the mother and her harlot daughters are. What The Churches Say About The Sabbath Catholic “Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change” (Sabbath to SUNday) “was her act. And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.”      HF Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons (Catholic Church).  (Sunday Worship; the Mark of the Beast) “Sunday is our MARK or authority…the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”     Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1 1923.  (Sunday Worship; the Mark of the Beast) “From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord's day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, inadequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church.”-D. B. RAY, “The Papal Controversy,” 1892, page 179. “I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.' – T. ENRIGHT, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884. “The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”-The Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893. “You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we [Catholics] never sanctify.”-JAMES CARDINAL GIBBONS, “The Faith of Our Fathers,” page 111. “Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible' “-JAMES CARDINAL GIBBONS, Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1983. “Question: What Bible authority is there for changing the Sabbath from the seventh to the first, day of the week? Who gave the pope the authority to change a command of God? “Answer: If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing the Saturday with the Jew. But Catholics learn what to believe and do from the divine, infallible authority established by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church…. Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Church?”-“Question Box,” by CONWAY, I903 Edition. pages 254, 255. “Question: Which is the Sabbath day? “Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. “Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? “Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”-PETER GERERMANN, “The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine,” Second Edition, 1910, page 50. “It was the Catholic Church which, by the authority of Jesus Christ, has transferred this rest to the Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church.' – MGR. SEGUR, “Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today,” page 213. “Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept? “Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.'- STEPHEN KEENAN, “A Doctrinal Catechism,” page I74. “Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays? “Answer By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church. “Question: How prove you that? “Answer: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin: and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.” HENRY TUBERVILLE, D.D., “An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine” (R. C.), page 58, “Catholic: Is the Bible the rule or guide of Protestants for observing Sunday? “Protestant: No, I believe the Seventh-day Adventists are the only ones who know the Bible in the matter of Sabbath observance.” – “The Bible an Authority Only in Catholic Hands,” pages 25, 26. “Practically everything that Protestants regard as essential or important they have received from the Catholic Church. They accepted Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made that change. “But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible, in observing the Sunday, in keeping Christmas and Easter, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the pope.”-Our Sunday Visitor, Feb. 5, I950. Baptist “There was and is a Commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday…. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week. . . . Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament-absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week. “To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question … never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated. “Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the MARK of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism! “-DR. EDWARD T. HISCOX, author of “The Baptist Manual,” in a paper read before a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893. “We believe that the law of God is the eternal and unchangeable rule of His moral government.”-“Baptist Church Manual,” Art. 12. Churches of Christ “There is no direct Scriptural authority for designating the first day the Lord's day.”-DR. D. H. LUCAS, Christian Oracle, Jan. 23, 1890. “The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath. There never was any change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change.”- “First-Day Observance,” pages 17, 19. “Not any ecclesiastical writer of the first three centuries attributed the origin of Sunday observance either to Christ or to His apostles.”-SIR WILLIAM DOMVILLE, “Examination of the Six Texts,” pages 6, 7. (Supplement). “Is there any command in the New Testament to change the day of weekly rest from Saturday to Sunday? None.”-“Manual of Christian Doctrine,” page 127. “Where are we told in Scripture that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day…. The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it.”-ISAAC WILLIAMS, B.D., “Plain Sermons on the Catechism,” Vol. I, pages 334-336. There is no injunction in the whole of the New Testament to Christians to change the Sabbath into Sunday.' – D. MORSEBOYCOTT, Daily Herald, London, Feb. 26, 1931. CONGREGATIONALIST “It must be confessed that there is no law in the New Testament concerning the first day.”-Buck's Theological Dictionary page 403. “There is no command in the Bible requiring us to observe the first day of the week as the Christian Sabbath.”-ORIN FOWLER, A.M., “Mode and Subjects of Baptism.””The current notion that Christ and His apostles authoritatively substituted the first day for the seventh, is absolutely without any authority in the New Testament.”-DR. LYMAN ABBOTT, Christian Union, Jan. 18, 1882. “It is quite clear that, however rigidly or devoutly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath. …The Sabbath was founded on a specific, divine command. We can plead no such command for the observance of Sunday…. There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday.”-“The Ten Commandments,” R. W. Dale, D.D., pages 106, 107. LUTHERAN “They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments.” -Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9. “The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance.”- AUGUSTUS NEANDER, “History of the Christian Religion and Church,” Vol. 1, page 186. METHODIST “This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away…. The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. …Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.”-JOHN WESLEY, “Sermons on Several Occasions,” 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222. “The reason we observe the first day instead of the seventh is based on no positive command. One will search the Scriptures in vain for authority for changing from the seventh day to the first. The early Christians began to worship on the first day of the week because Jesus rose from the dead on that day. By and by, this day of worship was made also a day of rest, a legal holiday. This took place in the year 321. “Our Christian Sabbath, therefore, is not a matter of positive command. It is a gift of the church.”-CLOVIS G. CHAPPELL, “Ten Rules for Living,” page 61. MOODY BIBLE INSTITUTE “The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?”- D.L. MOODY, “Weighed and Wanting,” page 47. “I honestly believe that this commandment [the fourth, or Sabbath commandment] is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.' It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was-in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.' – Id., page 46. MORMON “The Sabbath was to be a perpetual covenant between the Lord and the children of Israel. 'Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant' (verse 16). In verse 17 they are commanded to observe it as a sign that they remember that the Lord made heaven and earth, and rested on the seventh day. “In these quotations from Exodus 31, and in the Decalogue the most positive and weighty reasons are given by the Lord to the fathers of the house of Israel, for keeping the Sabbath day. The obligation is evidently as binding upon the Latter-day Saints as it was upon their fathers, and they in like manner will reap the reward of obedience.”-FRANKLIN D. RICHARDS AND JAMES A. LITTLE, “A Compendium of the Doctrines of the Gospel,” page 226. PRESBYTERIAN “The Sabbath is a part of the Decalogue-the Ten Commandments. This alone for ever settles the question as to the perpetuity of the institution…Until, therefore, it can be shown that the whole moral law has been repealed, the Sabbath will stand…The teaching of Christ confirms the perpetuity of the Sabbath.”- T.C. BLAKE, D.D., “Theology Condensed,” pages 474, 475. “God instituted the Sabbath at the creation of man, setting apart the seventh day for the purpose, and imposed its observance as a universal and perpetual moral obligation upon the race.” American Presbyterian Board of Publication, Tract No. 175. “The observance of the seventh-day Sabbath did not cease till it was abolished after the [Roman] empire became Christian,” American Presbyterian Board of Publication, Tract No. 118. DICTIONARIES “The notion of a formal substitution by apostolic authority of the Lord's day [meaning Sunday] for the Jewish Sabbath [or the first for the seventh day]…and the transference to it, perhaps in a spiritualized form, of the sabbatical obligation established by the promulgation of the fourth commandment, has no basis whatever, either in Holy Scripture or in Christian antiquity.” – SIR WILLIAM SMITH AND SAMUEL CHEETHAM, “A Dictionary of Christian Antiquities,” Vol. 11, page 182, Article “Sabbath.” ENCYCLOPAEDIAS “It must be confessed that there is no law in the New Testament concerning the first day.”-M'CLINTOCK AND STRONG, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Vol. IX, page 196. “Sunday (Dies Solis, of the Roman calendar, 'day of the sun,' because dedicated to the sun), the first day of the week, was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship. The 'sun' of Latin adoration they interpreted as the 'Sun of Righteousness.' . . . No regulations for its observance are laid down in the New Testament, nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined.”-SCHAFF HERZOG, Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, 1891 Edition, Vol. IV, Art. “Sunday.” HISTORICAL “Bear in mind that the substitution [of the first for the seventh day] was not a coerced happening; it could not be a sudden, but only a very slow development, probably never anticipated, never even designed or put into shape by those chiefly interested, but creeping almost unconsciously into being.”-WILLIAM B. DANA, “A Day of Rest and Worship,” page 174. Eusebius, fourth-century bishop and friend of the wicked Emperor Constantine, whose Sunday law is the fir st on record, flatly says: “All things, whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's day [as they had begun to call Sunday].” – 'Commentary on the Psalms.' “Opposition to Judaism introduced the particular festival of Sunday very early, indeed, into the place of the Sabbath…The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps, at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered labouring on Sunday as a sin.”-AUGUSTUS NEANDER, “General History of the Christian Religion and Church” (Rose's translation), Vol. 1, page 186. CONCLUSION The testimony from the leading denominations and evidence gathered from dependable secular sources is presented for your consideration. All of the statements consistently testify that it was the church in apostasy that tampered with the holy law of an unchangeable God. Centuries before the Christian Era the prophet of the Lord had prophesied: “He shall speak great words against the most High. . . . and think to change times and laws.” (Daniel 7:25). To the Christian church, God entrusted great authority, but no man nor organization of men has ever been given divine authority to tamper with the ten foundation pillars of the government of God. And He Himself has made it plain that they are forever established by His everlasting covenant whereby He promises to write His laws in the minds and hearts of men (Hebrews 8:10). “According to Catholic teaching, the only 'bondage' to which human wills are subject is the moral law which emanates from God Almighty Himself. The Church, as God's agent, may not tamper with that law.”- Our Sunday Visitor, July 13, 1947, page 129. “Man is a creature. As a creature, he is subject to his Creator in all that he does. God's will has … a bearing on everything that touches human rights and duties. No state, no group of educators, may reject a truth of the moral order to suit the claim of convenience.' – Pronouncement of Roman Catholic bishops as reported in Time, Nov. 26, 1951, page 21. But the so-called Christian world has tampered with God's law and rejected a truth of the ten great moral principles enunciated in the eternal law reiterated on Sinai by the voice of God and written by His finger. “For up to this day mankind has absolutely trifled with the original and most specific revelation of the holy God, the ten words written upon the tables of the law from Sinai.”-“Crown Theological Library,” page 178. (Lutheran). The world unrest, the disregard for law and order, and the immorality of our day may be charged directly to the brazen attempts of the created to meddle with the government of the Creator. This is the testimony of Holy Scripture: “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth.” (Isaiah 24: 5, 6). “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8: 20). We encourage you to read these facts prayerfully? And as you do so, bare your own soul before God while you make your decision with the apostles of the early church to “obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29). May God lead you to loving obedience, your token of love and the outward sign of inward sanctification. Remember that Jesus declared: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17). His earthly mission was to save men from the transgression of the law, not to change it. Concerning Christ's first advent the prophet had declared: “He will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” (Isaiah 42:21). Will you not “walk even as He walked”? 1 John 2:6. Our Saviour said, “I have kept My Father's commandments.” (John 15:10). May God bless you as you consider this vital doctrine of the Bible and choose to follow Him.

Faith First. Where do the Jehovah's Witnesses fit into all this?

Aren't they Sunday worshippers?

Mother church or harlot daughter?

[david]

Cult Buster, if you are able to think and reason and not just keep pasting the same things onto this site, I would love to discuss anything you wish. Unfortunately, you are unable to converse. It seems completely out of your scope.

You tend to like to blatently say false things, yet have not ability to back anything up to the slightest degree. This is what bothers me so much about you. You spit out a lot, but say nothing and cannot actually explain why you believe what you do or defend what you believe.

It's quite sad, really.

[Cult Buster]

David.

You have a lot of accusations, plenty of evasive Watchtower tactics, but still no scripture.

         Jesus (Jehovah) The Alpha & The Omega (The First & The Last).

“Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
(Rev 1:7-8)

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending,
the First and the Last.”

 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.”
(Rev 22:13 & 16)

The Book of Revelation, which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, identifies Jesus as the The Alpha & The Omega (The First & The Last). It further identifies Him as The Almighty. Further testimony by Jesus, showing that the title, The First & The Last belongs to Him is found in:

” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.”
(Rev 1:17-18)

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who became dead and lived, says these things:”
(Rev 2:8)

It is Jesus Christ, Himself, who became dead and lived, who reveals that He is the First & the Last of Holy Scripture.

Since the Bible is one continual work stretching from Genesis to Revelation, it is clear that this title belongs to Jesus, and no other. There can only be One who is the First and one who is the Last .
 

We also find the following statements concerning the First & the Last in the Holy Bible:

– – “Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.”
(Isa 41:4)

“So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.”
(Isa 44:6)

“Listen to me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.”
(Isa 48:12-13)
 

Isaiah, inspired by God, calls the First & the Last, Jehovah, Jehovah of Hosts, the Redeemer, and God (meaning the God of Israel). This further biblical evidence provide overwhelming Testimony from Holy Scripture that Jesus (Jehovah) is indeed God Almighty & Eternal.

  Here is overwhelming evidence from the Holy Bible that Jesus Christ The Almighty God is the eternal Jehovah, The Alpha & The Omega, The First & The Last, The Beginning and the Ending.      

Question: Are the Jehovah's Witnesses a scripturally sound church?

Answer:   No!

[david]

Quote

David. You have a lot of accusations, plenty of evasive Watchtower tactics, but still no scripture.

You, my friend, are just wrong.

You want scripture? Let's play. Let's discuss.

ALPHA AND OMEGA

THE BOOK OF REVELATION
REVELATION 1:1-2
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw.”

As a side observation, this revelation was presented in signs and is given to show God’s “slaves” and not the world in general, the things that must take place. Much like Jesus illustrations, unreceptive hearts would not get the meaning, or have understanding. (Mat 13:10-15)
When looking at this symbolic book, we should remember this:
Revelation 1:1 explains that the revelation was given by GOD through JESUS CHRIST, and therefore the one speaking, through an ANGELIC REPRESENTATIVE at times is God himself, and at other times it’s Jesus Christ. And sometimes JOHN himself is speaking.
Hence, it is reasonable to expect the words of Jehovah God the Almighty to be quoted in the account, along with Jesus’ words, and John’s (and even the angel’s words, who transmitted the message.)
And in my opinion, they all seem to introduce themselves at the beginning or introductory words are mentioned in connection with them, and they all are mentioned at the closing of Revelation.

REVELATION 1:4
“John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,”
(Compare 2 Cor 13:14, where a similar greeting is given)

REVELATION 1:8
“The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible)
While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as “coming with the clouds,” the words of Revelation 1:8 indicate that it is “the Lord God,” “the Almighty” who is speaking. In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.”
Burden of proof: If we have a phrase or a title that is over and over again, repeatedly applied specifically to a certain one and we don’t find this word used in connection with anyone else by name, and we come across another instance of that word or phrase where it is uncertain who is being spoken of, it would have to be proved that this case is different from the majority and not the other way around.
“ALMIGHTY”:
Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
GENESIS 17:1
“When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.”
REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.
(See the “*” in the section below entitled: “Can two different beings be called the same thing or be explained with the same words?”)
“LORD GOD”:
The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah [or “Yahweh”] God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name without question has confused many as to who this one is. The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah.
Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.
“THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”
As well, this verse (1:8) is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” Just a couple verses before, at Revelation 1:5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ. So, when the phrase “the one who is and who was and who is to come” occurs 3 verses later, it would seem that this again establishes that we are speaking of someone other than Jesus. Or at the very least, it’s not at all clear that it’s speaking of Jesus.
Moreover, in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9) So John understood God to be separate and distinct from Jesus.
Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Also compare Rev 11:17)

On this point and others, not the following:
“Verse 8. I am Alpha and Omega. These are the first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet, and denote properly the first and the last. So in Revelation 22:13, when the two expressions are united, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” So in Revelation 1:17, the speaker says of himself, “I am the first and the last.” Among the Jewish Rabbins, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Thus it is said, “Adam transgressed the whole law from \^HEBREW\^ to \^HEBREW\^”–from Aleph to Tav. “Abraham kept the whole law from \^HEBREW\^ to \^HEBREW\^.” The language here is that which would properly denote eternity in the being to whom it is applied, and could be used in reference to no one but the true God. It means that he is the beginning and the end of all things; that he was at the commencement, and will be at the close; and it is thus equivalent to saying that he has always existed, and that he will always exist. Compare Isaiah 41:4, “I the Lord, the first, and with the last;'– Isaiah 44:6, “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God;”–Isaiah 48:12, “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.” There can be no doubt that the language here would be naturally understood as implying divinity, and it could be p
roperly applied to no one but the true God. The obvious interpretation here would be to apply this to the Lord Jesus; for
(a) it is he who is spoken of in the verses preceding, and
(b) there can be no doubt that the same language is applied to him in Revelation 1:11.
As there is, however, a difference of reading in this place in the Greek text, and as it cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here, this cannot be adduced with propriety as a proof-text to demonstrate his divinity. Many MSS., instead of “Lord,” \~kuriov\~, read “God,” \~yeov\~; and this reading is adopted by Griesbach, Tittman, and Hahn, and is now regarded as the correct reading. There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such, since the introduction of a reference to him would not be inappropriate to his manifest design. Besides, a portion of the language here used, “which is, and was, and is to come,” is that which would more naturally suggest a reference to God as such, than to the Lord Jesus Christ. See Revelation 1:4. The object for which this passage referring to the “first and the last–to him who was, and is, and is to come,” is introduced here evidently is, to show that as he was clothed with omnipotence, and would continue to exist through all ages to come as he had existed in all ages past, there could be no doubt about his ability to execute all which it is said he would execute. Saith the Lord. Or, saith God, according to what is now regarded as the correct reading. Which is, and which was, etc. See Barnes “Revelation 1:4”. The Almighty. An appellation often applied to God, meaning that he has all power, and used here to denote that he is able to accomplish what is disclosed in this book.” )–Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974)
One place this can be found is here: http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=001

REVELATION 1:11
The phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Bible and a few others, is not found in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, such as the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus.
As far as I can tell, most modern versions of the Bible don’t include the phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” in Revelation 1:11.
Here is a list of some Bibles that don’t have those words:

New International Version (and UK version)
American Standard Version
New American Standard Version
The Message Version
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New English
Basic English Bible
American Standard Version
Darby Translations
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Reader’s Version
Worldwide English (New Testament)
Today’s New International Version
Contemporary English Version
New World Translation
Jerusalem Bible
New American Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible (and Challenor’s)
Weymouth NT

It also doesn’t occur in some of the older Bibles. The Latin Vulgate of Jerome, for example.
The words in question are found in the King James Versions, the Webster Bible, and the Young Literal Translation, and I’m sure there must be others, but I only checked the 25 that were the easiest to find for myself.
I believe that the words: “Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Version is at the least, very questionable.

REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First [“First,” א?VgSyh; A, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”

In what way does the Bible demonstrate that Jesus is the “first”?

REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18)
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”
So, we could guess that Jesus being the “first” means that he is God Almighty, but it doesn't say this. We do know 2 things:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in that we was the first to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Col 1:18)
2. The statement in question continues to say that he is the living one who “became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.”
I believe that based on the context and these other scriptures, and with no direct evidence to the contrary, we have to believe that Jesus is the first in this respect.
How is he the “last”?
That too is covered in the rest of the statement. It says that he had been given the keys of death and of hades. Jesus was the “last” to be resurrected by Jehovah personally.
JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”
JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””
REVELATION 2:8
““And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr?na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ WHO BECAME DEAD AND CAME TO LIFE [again],” (Again, notice that with reference to Jesus, how these words are connected to Jesus death and resurrection.)
JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”
It seems that Jehovah resurrected Jesus and that Jehovah has entrusted power of judging to Jesus, the power to resurrect. (Dan 7:13,14; 2 Tim 4:1,2) Jesus said: “I will resurrect him on the last day” and “I am the ressurection and the life…”
As Revelation 1:17,18 says, Jesus now has the keys of death and hades.
So I believe he was the “last” to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus. For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25)
This explanation looks at the words and ideas surrounding the actual phrase “first and the last” and it also looks at other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the first. (Compare Rev. 2:8) It is not based on the idea that I want something to be true. This is what the Bible says. And as far as I can tell, it carries much stronger evidence.

BUT JEHOVAH IS ALSO CALLED “THE FIRST AND THE LAST”
Can two different beings be called the same thing or be explained with the same words?

“The Greek word a·pósto·los is derived from the common verb a·po·steĺlo, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mt 10:5; Mr 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [a·pósto·los] greater than the one that sent him.” (Joh 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mt 10:40; 15:24; Lu 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; Joh 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissio
ned representative.”–Insight, Vol 1, page 127.
Jesus is called apostle. Jesus apostles are called apostles. This does not mean they are the same being. Yet the word applies to both. What does it prove? It proves that those words can apply to both–not that they are the same person.
Similarly, Jesus is the first and last in certain respects, as the Bible itself plainly says. (See scriptures quoted above) And Jehovah is the first and last in that he is king of eternity and Creator.
ILLUSTRATION:
As I’ve said before, the moderator of this board was probably the first to post and will be the last to post. Nick, another moderator can be spoken of as the first to comment on any specific topic and will be the last to have his word in. Nick is the first and last, in that he comments a lot. T8 is the first and last in that he has been here before and after everyone. They are in no way the same person, are they? We could say: ‘T8, the Super Administrator, the first and the last,’ and then apply that first and last to the fact that he is the super administrator and will always be here and always has. But this in no way prevents those words “first” and “last” from being applied to Nick in some other special way.
*It’s important that you not misunderstand what I’m saying here: I’m saying words CAN apply to more then one person (without them being the same person). I’m not saying words can’t be applied to more than one. You can’t say to me: ‘You say that the word “Almighty” CAN’T apply to more than one person, yet here you say that this phrase (first and last) can apply to more than one.’ No. I’m not saying that a word “can’t” apply to more than one. I’m saying that in the case of the word “almighty” it “doesn’t.” I’m saying this is what the Bible shows in that case. I don’t believe that it, a word, in itself “can” only apply to one person. I believe that scripture clearly shows that this word “Almighty” is only ever used with reference to Jehovah and is done so repeatedly, from beginning to end, from the first to the last. I’m not saying it’s impossible for a word to be applied to more than one. I’m saying, with the case of the word “Almighty” for example, the evidence doesn’t suggest this.

This scripture comes up a lot. Let’s look at it:
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.
When Jesus is presented by the title: “the First and the Last,” this doesn't in any way prove he is claiming equality with Jehovah or that he is Jehovah. He is using a title properly given him by God.
In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.
Look at this verse again.
Imagine someone, the largest person on the planet said this true statement:
‘I am tall and wide and besides me no one weighs more.’
That does not mean that someone else can't be described as tall and wide.
WHAT IT DOES MEAN is that no one else can be described as weighing more.
How can we understand the expression: Besides me there is no God?
We know that the Bible uses the word God with reference to other mighty ones, angels, human judges of Israel, etc. Angels are not false gods.
Look at the scripture. Jehovah is the first and the last. There was no one before him and He will exist forever. He is described as the king of eternity in the Bible. In this sense, no one can be compared to him.

REVELATION 21:6-7
“And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Aĺpha and the O·méga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”

Who is the speaker? Notice verse 7. Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons.” The speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.
MATTHEW 25:40
“And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’” (Compare Mat 12:50)
HEBREWS 2:10-12
“For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,” as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of [the] congregation I will praise you with song.””
It is true that Jesus, because of being God’s chief agent of life, is referred to as Eternal Father at Isaiah 9:6. Looking at the Bible, we see that anyone who has followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father. (Joh 8:44) But of course, “Father” is applied to Jehovah God numerous times.
Looking back at Rev 21:6,7, it indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)
So this would seem to contradict other parts of the Bible, if it was taken that Jesus was the Alpha and Omega here.
As well, we have the phrase: “To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.”
While Jesus spoke of giving such water (John 4:14; 6:35) Jehovah is spoken of as being the “source of living water.” (Jer 2:13; Ps 36:9)

REVELATION 22:12 (TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION)
It's clear that some Bibles want this to be Jesus. At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it.

REVELATION 22:12-13
““‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Aĺpha and the O·méga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation.
–in verses 8 we have John talking.
–In verse 9, we have the angel speaking to John.
–verse 16 obviously applies to “Jesus,”
–the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,”
–and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences.
As I said before:
“The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.””
Of course, the coming judgment will be expressed by Jehovah God through his Son, fo
r the apostle also says: “This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind.” (Rom. 2:5-10,16)
REVELATION 4:8
“And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.””
REVELATION 1:4-5
“John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.””

[david]

Quote

Here is overwhelming evidence from the Holy Bible that Jesus Christ The Almighty God is the eternal Jehovah, The Alpha & The Omega, The First & The Last, The Beginning and the Ending.

I'm sorry CB, where exactly was this evidence. All you did was put done several scriptures THAT IN NO WAY TO THE SLIGHTEST DEGREE IN ANY FASHION PROVE WHAT YOU CLAIM. Please point out where this evidence is.

Here's what you do:

REVELATION 1:11
“saying: “What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Eph′e·sus and in Smyr′na and in Per′ga·mum and in Thy·a·ti′ra and in Sar′dis and in Philadelphia and in La·o·di·ce′a.””

REVELATION 1:1
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,”

REVELATION 22:8
“Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that had been showing me these things.”

REVELATION 1:8
““I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.””

REVELATION 1:8
““I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.””

REVELATION 21:6
“And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.”

MATTHEW 25:40
“And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’”

HEBREWS 2:10-12
“For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,” as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of [the] congregation I will praise you with song.””

REVELATION 22:13
“I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

REVELATION 22:8-9
“Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that had been showing me these things. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.””

REVELATION 22:16
““‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.’””

REVELATION 22:17
“And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”

REVELATION 22:20
““He that bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes; I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.””

REVELATION 22:12-15
““‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’”

REVELATION 22:12
““‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is.”

THEN, YOU UNDERLINE A FEW OF THOSE WORDS IN SOME OF THE SCRIPTURES AND AT THE END YOU SAY:

“See, here we have overwhelming evidence….”
It's so overwhelming, you can't actually specifically point it out.

That, is overwhelming.

[Cult Buster]

” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.”
(Rev 1:17-18)

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who became dead and lived, , says these things:”
(Rev 2:8)

David. These verses are obviously identifying  Jesus as the First and Last. It can only be Jesus for He died but is now alive.

These verses can be found within the list of Bibles mentioned in your post.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

It is obvious that Jesus is speaking and is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last and these verses can be found within the list of Bibles mentioned in your post..

In fact your own Jehovah's Witness nwt translation identifies Jesus as Jehovah.   LOOK AGAIN!

In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads,

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God.

Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.”

Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.

Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Who do you say the Alpha and Omega is?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen,

“I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”

It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.”

So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.

Here is a strong proof text that Jesus is God because both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega.

Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18.

Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”

Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last.

Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”

Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says,

“Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”

Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.

David:  Here again we see Jesus is Jehovah God  and your own JW's Watchtower Bible contradicts the teachings of your  church.

I will scrutinise your last posting some more.

[Author]

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