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I have yet to meet a JW that has had a salvation experience. They can readily quote Scriptures that they are taught, but none that I have ever met have been born again, let alone baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Hi H,
You say
“Then we have this scripture. Those who died prior to the time of Christ could not have salvation unless they first confess with their mouth unto salvation. They were made righteous by the heart, and because of this, they when they died in the flesh, their souls were held in the place Jesus referred to as the Bosom of Abraham. They could not be set free until Jesus defeated death and they confessed him as Lord and Saviour with the fruit of their lips.”You take a certain amount of artistic licence in your proclamations.
Hi cam,
JW's carry a lot of unscriptural teaching baggage.
I would suggest you pray that God would show you where He would want you to be established in Him.Quote The bible says Samuel did appear to Saul and he did. Period. Case closed. To say it was not him is to not believe the Word of God. Wait H. I thought you wanted to discuss this. If it is truly “case closed,” then you shouldn't have a problem with proving that what I say is wrong. Did you actually read my post. What of the questions I asked? I thought you wanted to discuss this. If I am wrong, show me. Don't say: “Case closed.”
It's very easy to isolate one scripture, and interpret it in the way you want while closing your eyes to the rest of the Bible and say: “Case closed.”
I'm not even going to read the above post of yours until I at least think you have read my post. I really don't think you read it at all.
I really should have put a “case closed” at the end of my long post. It lists several things that make it impossible to believe that it was the departed soul of Samuel. Contradictions everywhere. Case closed.
Please read my post so you actually know what I believe, and this will help you to discuss this topic with me, H.
david.
H, if you prefer, you could read it in the “soul” thread, as in that thread, it has parts underlined and in bold and italics, to make certain things stand out. It is an easier read. I hope that helps.
david.
Quote JW's carry a lot of unscriptural teaching baggage.
And I'm sure Nick would include in this, JW's believing that it was not actually Samuel's departed soul that the spirit medium was speaking to. Please go back a page to see some of what Nick calls “unscriptural teachings baggage,” and note the “scriptures” that these unscriptural teachings are made of. Don't take Nick's word for it. Judge for yourselves.david.
Quote David, Enjoyed your post about the Witch of Endor and the soul.
Nick, I believe David quoted Psalms 18.31 not 18.1. To use your own words – 'You must be accurate'.
Ramblinrose, does this mean that you agree that the witch of endor was not communicating with Samuel himself?
I believe the JW”s (like all denominations) were given a nugget of truth then proceeded to go off and build a “empire” around it. This is a tendency of man whether it is their religion or at work, they want to build “kingdoms”.
The JW's seem to have a lot of things right, I love David and wish I had half his zeal and abilities, but I am concerned, (as I am with any who adhere to denominations, especially any who believe they are exclusive), that they separate themselves from the body as a whole (those who truly believe and have a relationship with God no matter where they attend or don't attend) and they sit in judgment of anyone not conforming to their beliefs.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I see JW”s looking to their denomination as their source of salvation, since if they do not adhere to it, then they would be like….us, people seeking God with various amounts of truth.
To clarify what I meant by “people seeking God with various amounts of truth”, on one hand I have less knowledge of truth then some and on the other hand I have more than others. Am I saved at some point where my knowledge was sufficient? Or was it with the revelation, (knowledge alone won't do it), of what Jesus did for us on the cross and determining to turn from seeking my will to seeking His?
You couldn't get good doctrine if you combined the JW and the catholic religions. Neither are doing according to the Word of God.
I'm new to this forum. I wish to talk freely and I wish you all peace. This is in response to heiscomingintheclouds statement: “The JW believe that when a man dies, his soul dies along with the body. They believe that the soul and the body are basically the same thing and when a man dies, he will cease to exist until the resurrection.
Now, this is completely untrue. For when a man dies, his soul goes to be with Jesus and his body sleeps in the grave if he is born again at the time of his physical death. Those who die without being save go to hell.”
If this is true, can you show me scriptures that prove these statements?Hi and welcome BB,
Do spirit and soul mean the same?
Certainly Stephen said as he lay dying
” Lord Jesus receive my spirit”I think they can.
Scripture says we are body soul and spirit.[1thess]
It says our spirit returns to God when we die[eccl]But beings without bodies are called “spirits” in scripture such as when the disciples saw Jesus saw Jesus walking on the lake and thought he was a spirit.
Does a body sleep?
No a body rots away and returns to dust from whence it came.
Hi david
I don't believe the witch was communicating with Samuel.
I had offered the following link in previous discussion on this topic. You may find it of interest.
Hi RR,
1 Sam 28
“12 When the woman saw Samuel …”
“14 And Saul knew that it was Samuel,…”
“15Then Samuel said to Saul..”
“16 Samuel said…”
“20…because of the words of Samuel;”Scripture does not deny it was Samuel
so why should we
if it is our guide to truth?Dear Brian,
The Word of God is the most wonderful book of love. God gave us a part of himself that has answers to all our questions. He reveals himself through his Word. He manifests himself through his Word.
Now, to your question. First we have to cover some basicu questions. Can you add? I sure you can. The reason why I ask is because much of the Word of God is like adding one plus one. Now I will explain what I mean.
Jesus said all who believe in him will never die. Yet, do we not all die in the flesh. So what could he mean?
In the garden of Eden, God told Adam and Eve that the day they ate of the forbidden fruit, they would die. Yet, they lived hundreds of years longer in the flesh. So what could God have been referring to? Notice it says in the day.
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Even though Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they died in the spirit, yet remain alive in the flesh. Because of sin, they sold their soul unto death and were held captive under the bondage of death along with all of mankind until Jesus death and resurrection.
When Jesus was born into the world, he was born in the flesh, taking the nature of man. It had to be done this way so that death could be defeated for all mankind. Because man could not live a life without sin, God sent his Son, who took the nature of man, and the Son lived a life in the flesh without sin. When Jesus was crucified to death, he died sinless. He defeated death. He went into the lower parts and preached to those who were being held captive by death.
For all those who died before Jesus could not be freed from death unless they confess with their mouth that Jesus was the Son of God. They were made righteous with their hearts and were in the place referred to as the bosom of Abraham, but were set free by Jesus. Now, the unrighteous were in the part of hell that is the place of punishment. Many disreguard the story of Lazarus and the rich man as only a parable, but Jesus told this to let us know what was contained in death.Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1 Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet. 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
If you notice in 1 Thess. 4:14, God brings those who's bodies are sleeping in the graves with him on the day of the rapture. That means they are not in the grave, but in heaven at this time. That means all who die in Christ before the rapture will go to be with him.
Hi H,
You said
“Jesus said all who believe in him will never die.”Not quite and we must be accurate.
Jn 11.25f
“25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
and Jn 8.52f
” 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”
An alternative view is that
Jn 11 speaks of
the first resurrection in v 25
and the rapture in v 26and Jn 8 refers to the second death which his followers will not see.
Nick, when Jesus said that all who believe in him will never die, he meant it. For all who die that are saved never die. For there souls are no longer bound by death. Christ defeated death. All who die saved now God to be with Christ.
First, Heiscoming, your silence with regard to my questions speaks for itself.
To Nick and Heiscoming:
Are either of you worth more than a moth, in God's sight? Does God value you more highly than a moth? Simple question. These are your choices: “yes,” or “no.”
What do you think?
I ask you two this because Nick says things like:
Quote Hi RR,
1 Sam 28
“12 When the woman saw Samuel …”
“14 And Saul knew that it was Samuel,…”
“15Then Samuel said to Saul..”
“16 Samuel said…”
“20…because of the words of Samuel;”Scripture does not deny it was Samuel
so why should we
if it is our guide to truth?
And Heiscoming has no possible hope of even defending what he believes other than to repeatedly say the same: “It says samuel.” But he apparently can't answer any of the troubling questions this raises. And nor can Nick.So, now that you've thought about it, “yes,” or “no.” Does God value you any more than a moth?
My question relates to whether “everything” the Bible says is without question true, or whether we should discern where the words come from. If this account is being told through the eyes of the witch of endor, a spirit medium who believes she is speaking with Samuel (when she clearly couldn't be) then must we believe that it is actually Samuel, if that were to create contradictions with the rest of the Bible?
Let's look at Job for a second. I, personally, think that God views his servants with more value than a moth. How did you answer? Let's look at Job.
JOB 2:11
“And three companions of Job got to hear of all this calamity that had come upon him, and they proceeded to come, each one from his own place, El′i·phaz the Te′man·ite and Bil′dad the Shu′hite and Zo′phar the Na′a·ma·thite. So they met together by appointment to come and sympathize with him and comfort him.”These three met to “comfort” him, the Bible says. But they were false comfortors. The advice and councel they offered were not comforting, but rather condemnatory and false. Let's look at chapter 4. Eliphaz starts it out. In verse 12, he starts talking about this vision he had, where “a spirit itself when passing over [his] face.” (v 15) In verse 18, speaking of God, this “spirit” says:
JOB 4:18-19
“Look! In his servants [human ones] he has no faith, And his messengers [angels] he charges with faultiness. How much more so with those dwelling in houses of clay [humans], Whose foundation is in the dust! One crushes them more quickly than a moth.”Now, I could take this verse, and close my eyes to the rest of the Bible and I would have a very wrong picture of God, even though this verse is a part of God's inspired Word. This verse and much of what Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar say, we do well to consider, because we are helped to understand what and who Job had to endure. But this statement above, which came from some “spirit,” we are told is wrong. If it was a spirit, it was not one of his dead ancestors, as the Bible says they are “conscious of nothing at all,” and that their thoughts have perished. And since what this spirit said was definitely wrong and meant to paint Jehovah as an uncaring, merciless God, it seems to not be an angel that delivered this message. It seems it would have to be a demon. Demons tend to give false information. Kind of like with that Samuel account. Yes, it's not hard for them to watch humans and know a thing or two about what we are like, so as to imitate us. Spirit mediumship is called “detestable,” by Jehovah. It was something that was forbiddden. Why? (nevermind. I know you won't answer it.)
And I don't think my comparison of Jehovah being called a Rock several places in the Bible was out of line. If someone who is unreasonable and doesn't know too much about the Bible only sees one of those scriptures, they might well say: “It says he's a rock. Case closed.” MIND CLOSED. If what you believe is true, why not answer some of those questions I asked? If believing that it was actually Samuel disagrees with so much of the rest of the Bible and with common sense, and it creates a great deal of other contradictions, perhaps, you should look at and re-read what I said. I'm still not certain Heiscoming has read what I wrote, as I haven't seen a response to anything I said.
Does God have “no faith” in his servants? No faith in you Nick and you Heiscoming? This IS what the scripture says. And this is what that “spirit” said. Of course, some spirits (demons) like to mislead. Satan's first lie: 'You won't die. Eat.' The demons continue this lie: You will never 'really' die.
If some are to be given the gift of immortality, then in what way could a part of them be immortal without being given this gift? Immortality is something that the Bible says is given, not something we are born with.So Heiscoming,
I guess that's it for the “game” you wanted to play with me. I thought we could actually have a conversation. I was looking forward to it.I will perhaps try to bring out the points of my argument in more clear, shorter statements.
david.
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