Jehovah&#39;s Witness Church

Participant

David,
Mission Space is fun, it is essentially a giant centrifuge and by shifting your orientation around you experience flight like effects. very smooth you have no sensation of spinning. while your in the area I recommend Soaring. If you like dinner shows try the Hoop-de-doo in the campground (where I stay) it's Disney's longest running show, simple fare but good and a funny show (if you have kids they will love it).

By lies I mean, being a theme park, many rides are based on a story like the pirates of the Caribbean which shows pirates as more mischievous than evil. Of course there is the haunted mansion and others, but above all the general theme which celebrates the achievements of man and how they are our hope for the future, which is of course a lie.

Once again I hope you have a great time.
Wm

November 26, 2006 at 6:56 am#33153

david

Participant

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but above all the general theme which celebrates the achievements of man and how they are our hope for the future, which is of course a lie.

THat place is huge. There are different theme parks and different rides in each park. A person who likes sports, in theory, could just go and spend days at the wide world of sports.
Of course, in some places in the park, they do celebrate the achievements of man. The world in general focuses on manmade polital social solutions and doesn't look to God. I agree.
Of course, Seekingtruth, you can't actually tell me that it is wrong to go there, as you are there now. But you apparently find my stance on “lying is bad” to be in conflict with my going to disneyworld. I dont' know what to say. I do remember the epcot center, I think having lots of science stuff in it. I really don't think that the overall theme of disneyworld is: “Science and progress will save us.” I thought the theme was more of the sound: “Weeeeeeeee!”

david

November 26, 2006 at 11:26 am#33170

Participant

Just like at Christmas we explained to our kids about santa due to the exposure they get from others, we also found ourselves having to explain why worldly philosophies put forth in some of the rides were wrong. You may ask why I would expose my kids to this. First let me say we felt so strong about protecting our kids from worldly philosophies that we home schooled them both. And as to why I allowed this, it's always been my belief that eventually they will get exposed so the best way for that to happen is while we were there to explain how this did or did not fit in with what scriptures teach, in other words use life to teach life.

Of course worldly philosophies are taught everywhere so we would have to leave the world to totally avoid it, so we go for the “weeeee” factor but you do need to be on guard to the worldly philosophies put forth. It was only your stand, on “take no part in the world”, that made me question your visit. My interpretation of this verse is different and doesn't conflict but as I understood yours, I thought it did.

November 26, 2006 at 10:21 pm#33183

Participant

Hi,
The JWs seem to spend a lot of time moralising.

They seem to be looking for more rules to follow and not only do they apply them to themselves but also to others of the church and the world.

We are not searching for another external moral code to uselessly try and please God by, in the way of the Pharisees, and we are not meant to judge others.

November 27, 2006 at 2:19 pm#33243

Participant

David:

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out to discredit and disprove JW's.

…Casey has stated many non-truths in…about one third of them are just plain wrong..half of them misrepresent what we believe and the rest, I would have liked to explain with scritpure.

His last comment on “explaining his defense with Scripture” interpretation: I will show you my proof texts, take them out of context, align them with the Watchtower’s beliefs and then take quotes from secular sources that are like me organization and are biased in their disposition in order to “prove” the Scriptural basis.

Well once again here it is/ From the beginning I thought I finally found a JW who would be willing to discuss differences like adults and not stomp out of my house on me when I ask them something that I sincerely want to straighten out. The problem I have had with this certain JW is what I run into with EVERY (NOT A ONE!) JW. When they visit you and you have already done some research into the Watchtower and their origins, they automatically assume you are on a quest to discredit them or witness to them. The discussion with those like myself who have taken the time to read what they print and consider what they, then the defense is already established in their minds and trying to talk with them is futile because they have already assumed your “motive” is anything but sincere inquiry. I guess they think that if you read a few of their magazines or books then that is sufficient enough, but their printed material is vague and all the quotes do not give the reference from which they were taken so you wonder if it is even correct. David here from the very beginning of my posts had already taken this position and I had to reassure him I had no ulterior motives which got to be quite exhausting. Witnesses believe every person hates them and the victim role is implied pretty consistently. It is tiresome in reaffirming tons of times you want to be helped in comprehending things you may not understand. But, like I said, if you conclude they are indeed in error, all ties will be severed. It is if you do not agree with them to the end they have this strange notion you were bent all along on deceiving them and having some agenda that never contained true inquiry.

It is strange indeed; in order to continue a rapport with a JW they must be seeing that they are making headway in concerting you. At times if you agree to disagree they may let that topic go but they will eventually come back to it (as David has done with Christmas) I guess in the hopes of you adhering and heeding their view. Unfortunately I think they are just hell bent on proving you wrong and proving them right. The standard ideas within a healthy debate in trying to understand one another’s view is outright denied through ongoing relations. In some debates you still hold to a tenant in trying to present your view (trying best not to argue and avoiding confrontation though a lot of the times it happens). Other times you are simply inquiring and challenging a preconceived idea that you wish to further attain enlightment on.

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QUOTE:
We could have discussed any one of these things

I am assuming he means things like warfare and Adam and Eve. I was working on those topics in documents that I pasted but since David chose to ignore them then there is nothing I can do to continue in vain to comment on them. I can always further explain and elaborate on them but I would just be holding a conversation with myself so that would be just plain stupid.

If you are not foolish and see through their tactics they will not talk to you anymore because you are just bent on portraying them inaccurately so you can continue your “mission” on trying to destroy them and lying to possible candidates leading them astray in your folly.

David:

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“They” want to turn people away without any obstacles.

You can take exact quotes verbatim and they will say you are lying.

The irony in the below quote of his is that I have pasted these words taken directly out of one of there brochures and I am lying. If you talk with one and ask them about something in the material and they read it, if it boggles them and they cannot give you an answer they will say that they do not want to give you the wrong reply so they will look into and get back with you. Most of the time they never will come back, other times when they do come back it was somehow “forgotten” or they had not had time to do the research.

Most of the time will they will not defend themselves when one like myself will present these traditions that are heretical to them

Now as to his birthday defense I will take a quote out of my recent post:

For instance, most here have not studied the beginnings of birthday celebrations. Why? Because it makes no logical sense to in regards to theology. What does this day in celebrating a day that that individual gives thanks to God for giving him or her another year in the land of the living have to do with salvation? Not a thing of course. If a student is typing a term paper then the studying of such a topic would be needed. But this topic from David and the JW's is about salvation.

David:

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out to discredit and disprove JW's.

…Casey has stated many non-truths in…about one third of them are just plain wrong..half of them misrepresent what we believe and the rest, I would have liked to explain with scritpure.

Well once again here it is/ From the beginning I thought I finally found a JW who would be willing to discuss differences like adults and not stomp out of my house on me when I ask them something that I sincerely want to straighten out. The problem I have had with this certain JW is what I run into with EVERY (NOT A ONE!) JW. When they visit you and you have already done some research into the Watchtower and their origins, they automatically assume you are on a quest to discredit them or witness to them. The discussion with those like myself who have taken the time to read what they print and consider what they, then the defense is already established in their minds and trying to talk with them is futile because they have already assumed your “motive” is anything but sincere inquiry. I guess they think that if you read a few of their magazines or books then that is sufficient enough, but their printed material is vague and all the quotes do not give the reference from which they were taken so you wonder if it is even correct. David here from the very beginning of my posts had already taken this position and I had to reassure him I had no ulterior motives which got to be quite exhausting. Witnesses believe every person hates them and the victim role is implied pretty cons
istently. It is tiresome in reaffirming tons of times you want to be helped in comprehending things you may not understand. But, like I said, if you conclude they are indeed in error, all ties will be severed. It is if you do not agree with them to the end they have this strange notion you were bent all along on deceiving them and having some agenda that never contained true inquiry.

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QUOTE:
We could have discussed any one of these things

David:

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“They” want to turn people away without any obstacles.

You can take exact quotes verbatim and they will say you are lying.

Most of the time will they will not defend themselves when one like myself will present these traditions that are heretical to them

Now as to his birthday defense I will take a quote out of my recent post:

David:

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He want's to turn people away from JW's by stating things falsely and as much as possible.

The facts would get in the way and slow them down.

The reason is they have no defense

Once again I am having to assume since he did not elaborate on the “facts”. If you read the multiple lines of a brief summary I posted a while back you will find that any one of these facts can be proven as false as oppose to “fact”. Now, if these “facts” that he is mentioning here are on holidays and there origins, I think he has some validity in his Christmas origins though the plethora of information out there on these beginnings are not hard to find. I must say once again though I have told him BILLIONS OF TIMES it seems that this is a matter of conscience much like the meat sold in the market places in Paul’s time that had been sacrificed to idols. Although I do not agree with the JW’s stance on Christmas, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are wrong and I am right, it just is a matter of conviction. That is if it is a conviction for people like David whom it is evident that he has a conviction on this and is not simply submitting himself to the Watchtower traditions. Although others I believe wish to celebrate this holiday but are forbidden; that is the actual problem.

David:

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He can't argue with what is stated about what we're discussing, Christmas

…he is for the most part correct in finding that pagans used this day of birth for evil reasons that have nothing to do with honoring God and just having a good time. The Watchtower’s platform though in part teaches that you can find God forbidding to have birthday “parties” or events. To him any and every aspect including but not limited to candles, presents or a simply “happy birthday” greeting is sin. He is not allowed to say “Merry Christmas” or any other Christmas greeting; it is sin. He may do any hoola-hooping necessary as to portray it is just a matter of respecting or disrespecting God; being seen as being a participant in an evil custom as seen just below here in his quote:

David:

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He can't argue with what is stated about what we're discussing, Christmas

Casey:

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Christmas is about conscience but not for David; for David it is eternal destiny.

David:

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Birthdays and Christmas are not about “salvation” as you claim we believe. I am speaking of not offending God, something you should consider in every aspect of your life.

But upon further review of his posts you will see the stark contradiction from the above statement “…are not about ‘salvation’”

David:

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My “proof” is that the early Christians, the ones before the fortold apostasy

So I wonder why the early Christians refused to celebrate them? Maybe it is because scripture does forbid idolatry

But being that other scriptures condemen idolatry and being that the early Christians rejected this custom,
I think it's fair to say that the “coincidence” of the terrible similarities experienced on those birthdays are not a coincidence and match other histories.

Christians refused to celebrate them–maybe it was their idolatrous roots

To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom

We must make sure that we avoid religious holidays and other customs that violate God’s principles

So you have a problem with some idolatrous customs but not others? What of the cake? The candles? The birthday wishes?

The thing is, some of our consciences have been seared.

A seared conscience that has been beaten down isn't a good thing.

So apparently any believer who celebrates birthdays have seared consciences.

David:

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In later periods of time, about 300 years after Christ, it became ok to celebrate holidays that had idolatrous backgrounds.

Over and over again in the references that I am looking at, I see that the early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because of associating it with idolatry. Over and over again I see this. The Bible clearly condemns idolatry.

Birthday celebrations are rooted in idolatry and they have left a trail of blood. Faithful first century Chritians would not have felt like joining in a custom so darkly presented

Jesus and the apostles fortold and apostasy. Many things changed. I find the following quote very revealing:

“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ. . . .In the next 300 years this attitude began to change, and in 354 A.D., the Bishop of Rome declared December 25 to be the anniversary of the birth of Christ.”–Frontier, Dec, 1981
Is God offended when we join the Wiccan and the pagan's in their customs and do it on the same day they do, with the same practices?
Scripture is pretty clear. God hates lies. God hates those who carry on a lie, and Christmas if full of them.

I said previously :

“I have not studied where the birthday's have come from…I saw and see no need to.” you say.

His response:

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And scriptures such as this?

1 THESSALONIANS 5:21,22
“Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine. Abstain from every form of wickedess”

But as you say, its a day that many have some fun. So, it's ok, I guess, according to the fact that some people have some fun on that day. Some people also have some fun breaking all kinds of God's principles. Some people find that fun. But as long as they're having fun…who cares that it's satanic. Who cares what the origins may be?

I actually remember now you saying you hadn't celebrated birthdays for some time. I've never said there's anything wrong with reflecting on your childs age or development or growth. It's the paganism that Satan has wrapped these things in that bother me.

Prior to that?

Casey:

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His reponse:

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So now you're mad that I stated correctly that that the birthday celebration and birthdays customs are pagan. So you have to try your hardest to find paganism with us. Sad.
We have meetings three times a week. The weekend of course is an excellent day for one or actually two of those meetings as many have that day off, naturally. Many go out in the ministry on Saturday (and on Sunday too.) But yes, you got us. We have a meeting on Sunday. We also have one on Moon day (god of the moon) and some on tuesday (mardi in french) mars, and on wednesday (based on another false god.)

Of course, we are to be no part of the world. But that doesn't mean steppoing out of it. It means avoiding worldly customs the best we can when we can. And if you can't stop celebrating peoples birthdays because of fear of man or tradition, I do understand. Thats normal in the world.

So witnesses celebrate the gathering of believers (their adherents that is) on a day that is a derivation from pagan roots and it is ok? He says they “avoid worldly customs as best as they can” but choosing Sunday as an official day is not “best as they can.” He says they can’t step out of the world.

Do you know see the hypocrisy and double standards by which all JW’s use to justify their man made satanic traditions?

I said:

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“Well my son, I would let you in, I mean you did believe in my Son, you did repent and were baptized, I did save you by My Spirit, you did follow Jesus and His teachings…but you celebrated one too many birthdays so I can't let you in…”

His response?

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I believe that to “repent” means to feel regret,for what one has done or omitted to do or to change ones mind with regard to past actions of conduct. If you are celebrating Halloween as a different more obvious example and suddenly realize that this is wrong, you should change or repent of that action. If you say: “Oh well,” then you haven't actually repented.

But the birthday celebration itself, is another matter. God does not condone paganism or idolatry. That is why the early Christians considered birthdays to be avoided.

Would a true Christian pretend to then? Or would he make it appear as if he was? Or would he do everything that those who did worship those things do? No. He would completely seperate himself from such idolatrous things.

I'm not saying that every part of Christmas is wrong and doesn't really have anything to do with Jesus what so ever.

Did anyone else scratch their heads at this comment? I was like, What???????
He says these HUGE amounts of words condemning any and all forms of Christmas but then says “not all parts are wrong”. Well, not all parts are wrong on Sunday worship but there are parts that are wrong but that is pretty much a moot point with David.
As sscott rightly said:
No offense but it sounds like an excuse for inconsistancy. I do know someone who will not use the current calander or say the names of the days and months due to their pagan roots. Now I totally disagree with him but one thing he is….. he is consistant.

David:

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True Christians would be different from the world. Separate from the world and it's ways. Separate from the lies, the ancient pagan holidays. Separate. Distinct. Different. They would be “no part of the world.”
Christmas is a big part of the world. It's a worldly holiday that the world celebrates that is surrounded with bad history and lies. That should be enough

HI t8. You write:

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Now regarding holidays (holydays) if a man wants to honour the day his saviour was born on December 25 or 24 as they do in South America, it is not for you or your organisation to judge. If they do so to honour God, then it is pleasing to God. It is when you believe that it is wrong that it becomes sin,

Many have forgotten that the word “sin” exists and wonder what it is. Just because someone doesn't know they are sinning (falling short or missing the mark of God's glory) doesn't mean they aren't sinning. We are all imperfect and all sin and fall short of the glory of God, a lot.
T8, what if people who don't know any better decide to follow a tradition that is based on sin (idolatry)….such as, let's say, celebrating an ancient Roman pagan holiday…that, oh I don't know, let's call the Roman Saturnalia?
So that's not wrong?
What if they decided to follow the traditions of their fathers without questioning it and celebrated Satan day? Well, as long as they're in ignorance and don't try to look into the meanings of the customs they partake in, their ignorance will save them? Is that what you are saying?

As long as they are “honouring God” by following ancient pagan customs?…then, all is well?

I understand how that is a nice way to think, polically correct and such. Doesn't God's opinion and his thoughts matter more than all else?

Wouldn't you want to avoid taking the chance of hurting God or angering him by imitating or copying the ancient pagan customs of people that God clearly hated?

But I do hold the practice of imitating the customs and holidays of idolatry as something God detests and hates

ok, and let's say some people worship some idol, let's call it budha. And let's say the some people claiming to be Christian decide to get rid of this Buddha by saying that that image is Jesus. We know it's a lie–that that isn't really Jesus. But Jesus is good. And we're trying to replace the paganism with good by lying. So, we'll say that the buddha statue is Jesus and we'll wear it around our necks and call it Jesus. There.
Ok, let's say some people do this. And you claim you're not worshipping this Buddha, but merely paying homage to Jesus, by doing these things. Yet, that Buddha was once an idol. It still is an idol to some. You say it's not to you. To you, you say it's Jesus.
Well, it's not really Jesus. It never was Jesus. Saying it is Jesus doesn't make it Jesus. Saying you're not worshipping the idol doesn't make it ok. It WAS an idol.
What would God think?

I never did comment on this. I found it comical and ridiculous; the comparison between Christmas and Buddah is beyond reaching in attempts to portray Christmas as idolatrous.

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Celebrate if you like. Nothing wrong with that. But are you really “separating yourself” from idolatry if you embrace the customs of those who practiced such things on that same date?
I think imitating paganism and perpetuating lies does offend God.

So? David says it isn't eternal?:

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Well that's good. I have never said that it is a sin to enjoy yourself while others are celebrating “Christmas.” Yes, sin is worshipping idols. And if an ancient people worshipped an idol years ago, would we turn their celebration into something we celebrate?
Would we turn their sin into our celebration? Would we find fun in their customs? Their practices? Would we add lies to the celebration?

David:

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let's just put down all we can without discussion.

What he is referring to is the unending posts on Christmas. Any other topic in which he finds himself without at least a plausible defense, he is unwilling to have specifics on that topic largely in due to the simple fact that the tradition the Watchtower holds on that discussion has very little if any defense and too many holes to see through.

If you read between the lines all he is doing is taking every possible evidence he can use as arsenal in attempts in blowing up any refute we have here on honoring Yeshua on the Day of His birth. The huge amount of posts are basically all the same. He will post any and all quotes taken from a source that agrees with him and his organization. There is more than enough information out there on the net and in text books for the defense in celebrating this day and how Satan has so manipulated groups by removing the day in honor of Christ.

What was amusing was when I looked up these sites I then posted this in response:

You have done this erroneously more than once. I am referring to a quote or another website that holds to the JW poistion on different topics. However, if you would look further into this site, you will see a stark contrast with what the JW's believe and what the Restored Chruch of God believe. It is acknowledged that the founder of this group's teachings, have now been renounced by the very organization he began and few Orthodox believing Christians acknowledge this group as Christian.

His reply?

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You are right in that I didn't look at all of those websites I quoted. But as I said, if you'll check, my only point was to bring out that JW's aren't the only ones who recognize these orgins and recognize that God might look badly on taking on the customs of those pagans who practiced such things

Well said David, well said. You did not look into these websites. You prove my point sir. Witnesses will do ANYTHING necessary at the expense of their integrity which actually helps people see through their lack of credibility in portraying another one’s views incorrectly.

David:

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I found the fol
lowing in a news article dated Nov 20,2006. The news article was on Walmart and how they greet their customers.

Casey:

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. He will post any and all quotes taken from a source that agrees with him and his organization

David:

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

I'm curious to know what people think of this:

“Yule, the winter solstice, is a festival of peace and a celebration of waxing solar light. I honor the new sun child by burning a[n] oaken yule log in a sacred fire. I honor the great goddess in her many great mother aspects, and the father god as Santa in his old sky god, father time, and holly king forms. I decorate my home with lights and with holly, ivy, mistletoe, evergreens and other herbs sacred to this season. I ring in the new solar year with bells.”––Wiccan High Priestess Selena Fox
]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47345

david

Are You starting to see through the smoke screen now maybe? He starts with a Watchtower belief that is a matter of eternal destiny. Then, he looks for all printed or www material that supports whatever the position is. Does he do the opposite? I think the answer is obvious. Let’s say I start off with a belief that all Jehovah witnesses are going to hell in a handbasket. Believe you me, I can find more than enough material that supports this idea. Now, in actuality I do not believe that since God is Sovereign and will redeem some. But, if I truly believe that without questioning whether I am wrong or not, then the quotes could be endless. So that proves I am right; how silly.

David:

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It bothers me that I actually glanced at what you wrote. It's time out of my life I'll never get back. A waist.

Notice how a witness responds. The actual apologetics against the Watchtower are quickly dismissed as what he states a “waste”.

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I'll shake off what you said and the bad disposition and lies and slander.

Slander:
defamation; calumny: rumors
When a rumor is found to be a fact it is no longer a rumor.
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report
Where is the supposed “maliciousness”?
I think I have covered the “false” accusation enough.
The defamatory is just a fancy word for offensive.
Yes, when the truth is offensive then one offended should question why. All people are offended by the truth. He can throw all the “defamatory” remarks he wants about Protestants and Evangelicals but I would never be offended. It would just show his childish attitude.
Hey David you said it yourself:

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I don't consider truth to be a bad thing. I consider myself to be on the side of truth. The truth is that:
Christmas and it's customs originated from paganism
Christmas is filled with lies (the date, everything about the magi, Santa, etc).

These things are undeniably true.
And I'm sorry if the truth offends some.

Now, in a court of law when a person who is the spotlight such as a celebrity has been spoken of in the public hearing such as a tabloid or newspaper without merit and making false accusations, then that party can be sued for “slander”.
I think in this case the “slander” he is speaking about is the actual premises I have presented to the public to misinformed and naïve people who will become ensnared by their deceit, or people who need a better understanding of a group of people who are considered a “cult” but want to know just why they are termed as a “cult”.

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Now, you say they don't pay their workers. It seems you're willing to say anything to suit your needs.

Am I saying they don’t pay their workers or are you denying they don’t? You said that a few in New York get some funds. But not one elder is paid. Not one worker who builds your Egyptian temples get paid. No one gets paid.

David:

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Anyway, things Casey has said in the past:

“I find they are kind and to their credit, devout in studying the Scriptures unlike most of us Protestants our here.”

I do not deny this comment I made. I still do not deny it. I have found that 75% of witnesses are kind and humble; not all but we are human. They are devout in their study of Scriptures that cannot be denied by anyone who actually hates JW’s. But we must ask: what is the motivation? I have said before that cradle witnesses are beat down with their ideology. They have it so engrained into their minds that it is a very painful emotional removal if they decide that it is a false religion. When a “recruit” has been taken in, they beat that recruit down with their false ideas ONE BY ONE. So yeah, they do know their Bible. I may have been a more elaborate. I did think that Biblical knowledge was superb. But I started to see that they only know their “proof texts” and can show you where to find it. Only I have stumped JW’s in my home before when I rebutted their claim with other verses showing that they removed that verse from it’s intended interpretation. I retract that comment.

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“Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.”

I foolishly spoke hastily not being up to date on the thread. You can’t speak ill of the witnesses? Well, at the time I wrote it, I just had a meeting with the most humble, kindest, sweetest JW I had yet to that date. So I believe that comment was fresh in my mind upon my recent encounter with a gentleman named Aaron.

David:

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I find the following statment quite laughable:
“Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? I do not know so I am reluctant to say.”

Once again, I did not read ANY of the previous posts. From the few that I saw it seemed like Nick would say something against JW’s
without any evidence to back up. Later he proved me wrong – thankfully.

He correctly quote me:

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“I have to say when one has an “axe to grind” with the witnesses, more times than not it is all heresay and coming from one who was disfellowshipped. I guess I should be cautious in believing things that I was not there to see and hear and consider all the circumstances around the cases. I found a site on the net that was so rediculous in its treatment of JW's that I could not grasp how people bought in to the sites attacks. One who has any sense of logic and common sense should be able to see right through the tactics they employ. Sadly it isn't the case. People buy into this junk without researching it first.”

There are tons of sights that persuade people to avoid witnesses and remove ones that are. I have seen a lot of these (not all) using unfair tactics. The problem I saw was they were employing the same false tactics that they were showing (at times correctly) the Watchtower did. Other times they were just name calling hateful.

David:

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“Before I [Casey] have had these discussions with you some of the propoganda I believed.”

The propaganda in part was mainly a distorted view of disfellowshipping and other times just believing what was said without actually verifying the claims. That is propaganda.

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“Regarding disfellowshipping . . . .The strange thing is I now think the witnesses are the only group that follows these admonishments from Paul”

I find no problem in believing this statement and at the same time concluding that witnesses are deceived. You can take a Scriptural tenant and enforce it to which the local kingdom halls do and almost are the only ones. You can commend someone on one tenant and they are still liable for the condemnation for other tenants.

David:

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But when someone is out to propagate certain beliefs against Witnesses, they always do the same thing and they do it exactly as you have, and exactly as I stated you would: List a bunch of things all at once without discussion.

It is what he doesn’t mention that makes this comment false. We conversed which you will see if you scroll back. But when we hit a dead end and he thought I was being “unfair” or whatever then he said I had false intention.

David:

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Anyway, I'm done with speaking to Casey. That scripture about shaking the dust off ones feet, JW's follow that scriptural admonition.

Of course you do David. The only Biblical verses your cult is fond of enforcing are the ones that are not the most easy to swallow.
“Don’t talk to an apostate…eat with them or even say hi…shake the dust off your feet…kick ‘em out of the congregation” You miss the “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” and stop an no costs in making people ashamed and feeling bad since it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow the Watchtower’s rules. I think it would be easier to adhere to the 613 Mosaic laws than it would be to follow your cults yoke.

November 27, 2006 at 4:50 pm#33250

Participant

David:

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“God is Sovereign but man's free will along with the “god of this world” frustrated and thwarted God's INTENDED purpose”
Yet, I specifically said to Casey that God’s purpose could never be thwarted. I think this is the first time I’ve seen him use the word “thwart” or “purpose” in relation to this. These are words that I’ve repeated several times, stating that God’s purpose could not be thwarted. This one you’ll find on this thread. Go check.

I am so glad David said this:

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I think this is the first time I’ve seen him use the word “thwart” or “purpose” in relation to this

It will just go to prove that David is only interested in himself and his cults tactics. Anyone can go back and read this entire post I sent on Nov. 17 2006,21:45

Here it is though

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To any JW's:

t8 said a comment ironically I had made on a document I worked on for a week but due to the previous discussions I put off posting in in order to not interupt the flow. However, I think it is time.

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You give our adversary way to much power.

Well stated t8. I know there will be some or many who till diagree with my theological view on the Sovereignty and Providence of God in control of all events ordaining and allowing them for His Purposes, Pleasure, Will to be carried out regardless of the “free will” choices and actions made by us silly humans of flesh and bone. So with that said I will now paste it:

David (a JW on this site) said:

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Casey, we realize that this kingdom is heavenly. It's sometimes called the heavenly kingdom. Heaven was not originally where God put Adam and Eve. He made them flesh and put them on the earth, in a paradise. Had they not disobeyed, they could have followed their commision to mulitply and fill the earth and could have thuse turned the entire earth into a paradise.

Here is the very point I have been trying so hard to get across on this part of the thread. There is no possibility to even have “had they not disobeyed” or “if” they had not disobeyed. Adam and Eve had no conception of evil or good, bliss-paradise or pain-hell, injustice or mercy, kindness or cruelty, forgiveness or grudges…etc,etc. In eternity humans would never have had the capability to conceive statements like, “Our God is Faithful…Our God is Merciful, Our God is Grace, Our God is Forgiving, Our God is Holy…” for their minds in this state that you term as “perfection” not only could not comprehend but would not have understood what these attributes given to God all through Scripture would mean; even if these words I have written were defined for them assuming for the sake of conversation that those words could be described without the dichotomy or antonym of each…they still would not know what it meant for YHWH being Holy. What is Holy to Adam and Eve prior to the fall? They couldn’t tell you. If the previous statement were even a possibility of happening, holiness being defined would not be coherent in their frame of mind…that is – PRIOR TO THE FALL…THE BEST IS YET…TO COME!!!
(Romans 11 ESV)
33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

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Death was spoken of as a punishment for their disloyalty. And Jesus (mat 5:5) and several other places in the Bible show that that is still God's purpose for mankind. Satan didn't thwart that purpose. But because of what happnened, God set up a subsiduary rulership, the kingdom. He lovingly decided that it should be ruled by those who have faced the challenges knwon to us.

You quite rightly said, “…that is still God’s purpose for mankind…” & “Satan didn’t thwart that purpose”. I believe in these comments with my life. You say God’s purpose still stands, you say Satan didn’t thwart that purpose…but then you say:

“But because of what happened, God…” Let’s break that statement down and see if it can be spoken of out of the same mouth that just comments before said, “Satan didn’t thwart that purpose…”
I will quote verbatim again IN CAPS: BUT – BECAUSE – OF – WHAT – HAPPENED- GOD – _ happened, THEREFORE GOD _, you believe indeed that God’s plan can be thwarted not merely by Satan, but my humans as well. You are in essence saying that our human “choices” will make God change His original intentions time and again in responding to what puny little man, His very creation – does. As if it is, “well I had a plan for David but he did _ and maybe _ and maybe that will work. I guess we’ll all see? :::Father talking to the Son:::” Following your theological scheme to its end one must conclude or should I say the witnesses must conclude that God has to keep changing His original plans and purposes for His decrees came to naught and fall short of what God wanted to bring about in contrast with Isaiah 55: 10″For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

So, what you said originally was in stark contrast to what you said after that, therefore you did actually contradict yourself and all witnesses contradict themselves by believing the same premise that is not Biblical but is a tradition that has been passed down for a hundred years now.

It is a discussion and debate that has been going on for centuries, “how does one reconcile the decisions, actions or ‘choices’ of man with God’s Sovereign decree?” One wise man of God said so honestly in reply, “you don’t reconcile friends.” I do not wish to get into the centuries old Calvinist vs. Armenian positions. There have been volumes written on these two opinions and I would be doing an injustice to the millions of pages written. What I do wish to refute is the unbiblical, illogical, unfounded, untenable, in vain explained the ideology of thinking:

IF ADAM AND EVE HAD NOT SINNED WE WOULD BE CURRENTLY LIVING IN PARADISE

If this becomes a topic on this thread which I have not doubt it will then mediate on these verses. I must warn you, if you accept what these verses mean and accept that what God has said is true, your outlook on God and your entire thinking in which you view all things done under the sun will be changed in one second; I know, it did mine. It will shatter your self-man made (g)od in a box and GOD will become larger and more awesome than you have ever seen! If you rationalize and in your flesh do whatever need be to squirm out of accepting them as they are so simply put, then God will remain god until you see He is GOD. Our God is Sovereign. Our God cannot be coerced. Our God does not fail in ANYTHING He wishes, desires, intends and plans on brining about. Not the drunk driver who crosses the medium and kills a family. Not a sly little serpent hanging around a garden.

Lamentations 3:37-38 (English Standard Version)
37Who has
spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?

38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?
Lamentations 3:37-38
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
37 Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?
Lamentations 3:37-38 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
37 Who is there who speaks and it happens,
unless the Lord has ordained [it]?
38 Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?

Isaiah 45:5-10

5I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,

6that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
8″Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
9″Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?'
or 'Your work has no handles'?
10Woe to him who says to a father, 'What are you begetting?'
or to a woman, 'With what are you in labor?'”

Romans 9:10-24 (English Standard Version)
10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call– 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory– 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 11
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3″Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
30Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[k] receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Now there are a lot of verses that should put to rest any notion that Adam & Eve would have remained perfect “IF” they had not done some thing. According to these few verses alone it is seen that God has SOLA TOTAL CONTROL over every event that comes to pass. You may say that “only if” but God is saying, “Now that that is out of the way let’s move forward in fulfilling my full decree in which I have declared the end from the beginning…” or as the Scriptures say it best:
Isaiah 46:9-10 (English Standard Version)
9remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
I point out specifically key phrases that one must consider in dealing with the idea of any creature thwarting the persons of God or even in choosing what their so called “free will” does:
7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

According to this it is apparent that the fall was not outside of God’s plan…

11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—

…and prior to any of us being born, God’s Sovereign choosing will be carried out in us who are but a mere thought in the mind of God in eternity before we were even conceived…

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy

… human will like that of Adam and Eve…

“For this very purpose I have raised you up,

…here we see God speaking of His purpose in creating Pharaoh, a choice Pharaoh had no power to detract from…

he hardens whomever he wills.
…He hardens Adam and Eve to disobey Him, all in order to carry out a plan far beyond the scope of things and far beyond the grasp of any human mind to conceive…

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory– 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
…the verse of all verses…the first time I read Romans 9 I through my Bible across the table in tears and yelled, “that’s not fair”, little did I know it would be these very verses that shattered my god in a box. The irony is, when I present the Biblical Truth of God’s electing Grace and His Providence over every action on earth, I am more times than not, yelled out by these very words. It normally goes, “that would make God unfair” or “well that makes God a respecter of persons” or “then why evangelize” or “then why pray” o
r “well we choose our destiny”…and the list goes on and never ends with rebuttals that are shattered by the very Words of God. Who am I to try and defend God? I will let God be God and let people deal with Him and His Words themselves…
The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
…more verses showing that God hardened or made stubborn the unbelieving Israelites/Jews…ALL A MEANS TO A WONDERFUL END IN WHICH ALL OF CREATION WILL BOW BEFORE GOD’S SOVEREIGN PLAN, A PLAN THAT IS USED BY BROKEN VESSELS OF WRATH AND GLORY!!!
So, with all of that said I post your reply and ask you to answer your own questions in light of God’s Word. If these Scriptures are not enough, I have tons more that coincide with these and that all speak of God in terms of being Sovereign.

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4) GOD IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY DECREED ALL OF THE EVENTS FROM ADAM AND EVE TO THIS CURRENT TIME. NOTHING IS OUTSIDE OF HIS WILL, NOTHING SHOCKS HIM, NOTHING SURPRISES HIM…HIS PLANS WILL SUCCEED. SATAN HAS NO AUTHORITY OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN HIM WHICH IS LIMITED AT BEST.

Of course his plans will succeed. It shouldn’t even be called a plan. “I plan to do this.” “I plan to do that.” Jehovah purposes to do things. He doesn’t plan to do them.
Of course Satan has only been granted authority from Jehovah to prove his claims, and that is limited….but it is not little.
He is three times called the “ruler of the world,” in scripture. The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one, the Bible says. He is misleading the entire inhabited earth, the Bible says. He is the very god of this system of things the Bible says. He is both world ruler and the world’s god. But the world will be done away with, the Bible says.

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If you believe that God planned for Adam to sin, that’s it’s own subject. (A lot of these things should be their own subjects.) Nothing is outside of his will, you say? Sodom and Gomorrah? The days of Noah? Rape? All part of his will? Why do we pray for his will to take place if nothing is outside of his will?
I guess you could mean that it’s all part of his plan, and so things like rape have their place in his will?

Yes, Yes, Yes,Yes,Yes…

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That seems wrong to me.

Well David, as a human of flesh who does not know the beginning from the end let alone declare them and speak in terms of them as if it has already happened, it seems wrong to me too. It seems wrong to ALL who have come to grips with the fact that GOD ACTUALLY DOES FULFILL HIS PURPOSES. Most people like even you yourself (which I will paste below) give lip service in saying things like, “of course God gets His will done and plan and…” but they and you do not really mean it. If you did, then you would believe them. But as you have said with your remarks, you don’t believe it. You believe Satan, the serpent, the devil, the accuser, the “god of this world” (not Earth David – the world; there’s a huge difference) has the control. You post Scriptures that show Satan has deceived, blinded and has the world in the grasp of his hands. To that I do not disagree. You leave out the verses that show God has given Satan these blind, hardened, stubborn, wicked, evil, deceitful…vessels of wrath, non-elect sons of Satan. Like the Pharisees they are sons of their father the murderer. Satan does not have ANY power or will that God has not so much as granted or given him. Satan COULD NOT touch Job – UNLESS, God let him. Satan could not touch Peter – UNLESS, Jesus let him. Satan could not touch Jesus, unless the Father or the Son – LET HIM!

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The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

Satan is the “ruler of the world.”
Remember, he's the god of this world.
He's good at what he does.
He trickes people into doing things he wants them to.
He puts “fun” all over bad things. Wraps them up nicely. Gives them innocent names.
He portrays himself as an angel of light.

I have seen and see all the time Satan given so much glory in witness comments and literature. I can see him now clapping at some of these things you and other JW’s say and going, “yes, yes, I do do these things quite well. It has taken me thousands of years but it is always nice to hear that I am good at what I do…” Does it not bother you that Satan has been given so much power and sovereignty over us in your rhetoric? Is God so impotent that he cannot keep this “ruler, god, angel of light” from overturning God’s own purpose? You would do well to place God back on the throne in all His power, splendor and Glory. Let God me God and quit talking about who runs the wicked system.
If I were you, or any witness…if I were any Pentecostal or Charismatic, if I were any sort of Armenian adherent, I would shake in my shoes and pull the covers up to my neck and shiver in sheer fear. If there is ONE ATOM outside of the plan, will, decree, thought or whatever word you want to place there that is powerful enough to defeat what God wanted all along, I nor you nor any other CREATED thing would be a match for it. However, I KNOW that all “atoms” are moving just as God told them to.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

November 27, 2006 at 6:22 pm#33252

Participant

Casey:

“- Satan (the god of this world) is glorified in the numerous mention of his name is repeated the same number of times or more than Yeshua “Jesus Christ”.

David says in response:

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So here are the actual facts. The non-lies. In the Watchtower and Awake for example, we see Satan and Devil occuring 18,000 times. Jesus and Christ occur 130,000 times.

Watchtower and Awake magazines (Last 50 years)

(Satan in the Bible 92 times) 11,800 times
(Devil in the Bible 59 times) 6,500 times

(Jesus in the Bible 1110 times) 91,000 times
(Christ in the Bible 748 times) 45,000 times

Ok readers, let's look at the number of times Jesus and Satan are mentioned.

In the Watchtower and Awake for example, we see Satan and Devil occuring 18,000 times.

Well, if anyone wants to do an exhaustive study on these past “50 years” then go ahead. However, if you like I have, will go through just a few (though I have read numerous and numerous literature of the Watchtower ) of their brochures and pamplets then you will find outstanding numerous times Jehovah at the expense of Jesus and evern Satan at the expense of Jesus.

Jehovah is mentioned against Jesus some 10-1 odds.

From their literature Satan and Jesus are somewhere around 4-10 odds.

Come to your own conclusion.

November 27, 2006 at 6:29 pm#33253

Participant

JW's do not participate in sports that could risk their life
Skydiving?…it was astonishing when I read this in their literature. I guess that would leave out:
Surfing
Football
Roller coasters or amusement parks
Rock climbing
Parasailing or Ultra light flyers
Hang-gliding

David then replies:

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Yes, JW’s generally avoid risking our lives in extreme sports, because we consider life a Gift from God, sacred and not to be thrown away needlessly.

Now if you read the sports I mentioned, it stated “I GUESS that would leave out”?
Why?
Because David himself said:

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JW’s generally avoid risking our lives in extreme sports

So in David's eyes football & rollercoasters are not dangerous. I could go to the news archives in Dallas alone and prove that otherwise. My second cousin died in peewee football by breaking his neck and recently at Six Flags a roller coaster came off track.

Do I find these dangerous? Of course not. Driving in cars, walking at night and so forth all come at risks. So to David, it is a matter of “interpretation”…I guess he is just following his master's schemes and he is also being hypocritical – Christmas is a matter of conscience but not “dangerous games”?

November 27, 2006 at 6:58 pm#33255

Participant

David:

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Refering to JW’s, Casey states:
You will scratch your head and want to scream at the screen and go, “OPEN YOUR EYES!!!” but they can't hear you. But,we don't give up. We never give up.

Casey, a page earlier: “Oxy give it up on David.”

David, your twisting of words is absurd! Can anyone not see that you just employ yoru leader's own methods? Taken everything out of context to fit your “position”?

If you read what Oxy wrote, “Are you born again” then you will see why I said that. All you would do is skirm out of answering that question from which anyone with sight can just read through the past posts of yours and find that out.

David:

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“You must never praise Yeshua”
I never said that. We praise each other. Why wouldn’t we praise Jesus? In the “Worship” thread, you’ll find what was actually said. Go check.

Really? I guess David is hoping that the new readers will not take the time to see how you did everything you could to distort Scripture so that you make it “appear” that Jesus is not worshipped.

I stated previously in regards to David's hopscotching over linguistics:

The science is semantics is a wonderful and dangerous thing. It can acquit you or condemn you in a court of law. One wrong word and you will find yourself trying to explain yourself in vain to the jury once a word has been applied. Here you will notice the “slight of hand”.

I stand corrected

David:

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“All holidays are pagan.“
Never said that. We don’t believe that. Some are simply nationalistic or worldly, etc. But JW’s don’t believe what is stated above. It’s the opposite of truth.

So worldly is not pagan huh David? Man, it is outragous the way you will say one thing and then turn around and go, “that is not what I said…”

David:

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“All other Biblical translations are stemmed from pagan roots of Trinitarian schemes and are therefore not the final say but must be read in accordance with the NWT in order to find the most accurate rendering.”
Pagan roots? Who said that? You shouldn’t use the word “all” so much. It tends to make your statements wrong, false. There are several threads where you could find what we actually believe on this.

Pages back David word for word stated “our” Bibles are Trinity bias. Again, a hypocrite who is NEVER consistant.

David:

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“If one does not do so and it is seen that they seldom if ever do, it will be suspicious in the elders eyes.
The encouragement would be given but eventually admonishment would be needed.”
Here, he's pretty much misrepresenting what I said again. Anyone can go back and check this thread. It will take some time though. This is not what I said. And this is not really true.

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he's pretty much misrepresenting what I said again. Anyone can go back and check this thread…This is not what I said…not really true.

Am I? ANYONE can indeed go back and check what David said. They will see that it may be “not really” true? Not Really huh? So that is different from “not true”. It is now “not REALLY”? That's funny.

What David fails to tell you is that what I stated in the entire line:

If one does not do so and it is seen that they seldom if ever do, it will be suspicious in the elders eyes.
The encouragement would be given but eventually admonishment would be needed.”

You will find it in the Watchtower standards. I did not exactly “quote” David as much as I relied on the facts of his beloved Watchtower…that he tends to interpret at times to fit his “agenda”. He will quote them but then twist their words.

David:

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“So when referring to Scripture “active force” is more appropriate than Holy Spirit. “

We really only use the words “active force” when dealing with people who have a misunderstanding of what God’s holy spirit is. We don’t, as he claims, do this. I guess this one I can’t substantiate by pointing to another thread. But if you’d look at the discussions I’ve had of the holy spirit, you’ll notice I don’t refer to it by calling it “active force” but that I do explain that scripture points to that as being an appropriate description of what it is.

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We really only use the words “active force” when dealing with people who have a misunderstanding of what God’s holy spirit is…by calling it “active force”…I do explain that scripture points to that as being an appropriate description of what it is.

So you now see his bias. People now need to be taught what The Holy Spirit is and not what the actual text says. “Active force” is not found anywhere in the parchments and manuscripts. You will ONLY find these words in the NWT of the JW's.

Then he even admits that he uses the description so that the apparent “misinformed” will now have a clearer idea of what “it” does….Not what HE IS.

David:

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“…but then there is a third group – the resurrected unrighteous who get a second chance
…then there is a fourth group the wicked who will be judged by sleeping forever
… only we haven't worked out the fifth yet. The Jews whom God will graft back into the original vine when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in”

All I’m going to say here is that he seems really mixed up as to what we believe.

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All I’m going to say here is that he seems really mixed up as to what we believe.

Actually that is all he CAN say. He knows I am right but if he tries to show me I am wrong he will again have to use semantics incorrectly…

David:

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There is a Thread on Catholics on here. Threads on mormons, etc. He only chose to speak about Jehovah's Witnesses. I wonder why this is.

Maybe David it is because I came to the JW thread looking for a JW who might be mature and intelligent enough to not throw accusations at me and discuss things I needed clarity on. I never want to misrepresent one's beliefs and I questioned those beliefs…apparently I came to the wrong site.

He correctly quotes me:

He had done this before. I should have known.
Casey, Oct 20, this thread:
Ok David. . .Now, I am not trying to speak ill. As you yourself said, we get caught up in the heat of emotions. I personally was dealing with some crisis in my life this week that would have changed my entire life for the worst. I apologize for being rude and ATTACKING YOU AND MAKING ACCUSATIONS THEY MAY HAVE BEEN UNTRUE. I have stated some truths though sir. So if you can be forgiving (I have been offended at some of your comments too, but it’s all good) then let’s continue shall we?

What he inhumanely forgot to tell you is what I was dealing with. So now we are no longer humans we are perfect infallible creatures who are unable to make mistakes. You can see the legalism within this cult. That quote to defend himself was just demeaning. To take a personal problem I was having, to be honest enough to share it with the world, and then to have you throw it in my face to portray me as an evil person was just plain cruel and demeaning. Any ounce of respect I held for you before I read that is null and void. I have NO repect for you at all anymore David. You are self righteous and in need of true repentance sir.

November 27, 2006 at 9:43 pm#33268

Participant

Hi Casey,
Whya has this dialogue seemingly turned into a diatribe against an individual we have grown to love and respect?

November 27, 2006 at 9:44 pm#33269

Participant

David says:

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Casey had chosen to represent himself with the avatar of a WOLF.

I quite often wondered why he chose to represent himself that way? Wolves aren't spoken of well in the Bible.

They're spoken of as false prophets (Mt 7:15),
vicious opposers of the Christian ministry (Mt 10:16; Lu 10:3), as well as false teachers that would endanger the Christian congregation from within (Ac 20:29, 30)

I can't help but wonder if he subconsciously knows what he is doing, and this is why he picked that avatar out of the hundreds–the wolf–the only available avatar image specifically spoken of so negatively against true Christianity.

[I]David, that would be a good question for my seven year old lil girl to answer.

The scary thing is, you are actually serious. Forget that a beautiful wolf is a creation of God. Don't forget that in Alaska and Tundra's that these snow sledding wolfs/Huskies are friends of the people who depend on them. There is even a movie based a true story how these “wolves” (dangerous and scary…oooooooh”) saved some people.

I hope that the people who take the time to read yoru rubbish will see just how immature you are.

Actually reaching so far to dehumanize me by attacking my icon.

The ironic thing is? You chose a pagan collesium/Church that has statues in it.

Oh know! David is an idol worshipper!

Give me a freaking break David.

November 27, 2006 at 9:56 pm#33270

Participant

Nick, you once told me:

Thank you Casey.
Very revealing about the manmade prison of deception.

Yeah, it has turned into a blame game and I was just about to post something in regards to that.

I was just showing the hypocrisy and double standards by which David a JW uses…a cult that I have concluded needs to be critiqued and scrutinized.

An individual we have grown to love and respect? Well, you yourself admit that his heresy is:

…is difficult to do so because I know the reverse psychological thinking that your group and groups like you perform and the domineering cloud of haziness that is hard to see through….

To keep a group of people living in fear of not “living up to” or not “being found worthy” or not “being perfect enough” or “not following all the rules” is cultic.

To have leaders make its adherents submit to a system of teachings that are based on laws not founded in NT love is cultic.

To run a group of persons under the heading of total control and no gray areas to venture upon is cultic in nature.

The restraints and bondage that imprisons any believer removes the Spirit of the Lord's freedom and is -a cult.

The constraints of men laying religious burdens on a people who are heavy laden and down trodden from the pains and abuses that this wicked world brings and to give them a false hope of peace and the release of guilt and shame only to find themselves with their sins joined with rigerous tasks to fulfill in order to gain favor with a Holy God they have ran from is cultic.

As far as respect? I no longer have any respect for him sir.

As far as love? Love is not found in sugar coating, tickling ones ears, stroking their ego…agreeing that they are right when you know they are wrong…in order not to offend them.

Well, Jesus was and is offensive – offensive out of love. I have had many a great men of God offend me into truth. David can be mad and upset and get enraged at me all he wants. The truth hurts and I have no qualms admitting he is right on some points but he is so full of pride, even when he sees that “we” have some truth to what we say, he will never admit it. Why? Because he is in a cult and a cult can never admit they are wrong. [/B][/I][/U]

November 27, 2006 at 10:06 pm#33271

Participant

Hi casey,
We hate the cult but should that apply also to the adherents?
no

November 27, 2006 at 11:07 pm#33274

Participant

Casey, I agree to a point, love does require that we confront a person honestly eventhough they may take offense, but I believe we should take care to not be unnecessarily offensive and to be very sure of our facts.

I guess what I'm saying is love should lead us to confront others, just be careful that confrontation with others does not lead us away from that same love. Believe me I understand your frustration as you could see by reading some of the debates I've had with David, but the Lord has given me a love for him and I pray for him to truly come to the simplicity of the devotion to Christ.

Of course I've always struggled with confrontation, and as T8 has pointed out to me a couple of times from scripture that the “religious” are called; snakes, vipers, etc. which is somewhat offensive to say the least (but it was to those twisting true religion, not to the sinner).

November 28, 2006 at 9:26 pm#33330

Participant

My wife sent me this e-mail earlier. Prayers are greatly appreciated…my mother-n-law may die

My mother found out today that she has an amorism in her aorta! That is the main vessel in your heart. She went for some testing today to see if she had any blockage in her heart or vessels. They told her that she was in critical condition for pretty much death. If it ruptures she will for sure die. They told her that it is extremely large and she needed to find a heart doctor ASAP! Oh my goodness….what the crap am I going to do if my mother dies. I am so not exaggerating, they told her she is at high risk. And she doesn't have insurance or a heart doctor. They can do surgery on her, but it is major heart surgery and very expensive. Like over $25000.00. And a small cyst on her liver but that can be taken care of with medication they think.

November 28, 2006 at 9:31 pm#33331

Participant

Hi Casey,
Praying for her.

November 28, 2006 at 10:34 pm#33335

Participant

Casey,
Me too
Wm

November 28, 2006 at 10:35 pm#33336