Jehovah&#39;s Witness Church

Participant

I had decided not to respond to Casey after his string of lies, but after this post, I will not even read anything Casey has to say.

Giving any more time to Casey would only seem to support his fallacious lies.

And I no longer have any problems using that word with reference to what Casey is doing.

Everything I have said he would do, he has. Instead of sticking to one subject and actually discussing it and what the Bible say, (as I am trying to do with Christmas and birthdays) he has chosen to disregard my asking him to do this.
He stated at much as he could, and then reposted it, hoping it would… I don't know what.

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(I have not checked out his “facts” from these supposed Encyclopedias or dictionaries though; I questioned him on one and he admitted he didn't exactly remember the volume though he posted a volume that made one think it was indeed that volume though he admitted he really wasn't sure but was sure it was one of those volumes. So what exactly did her read? Did he see something that looked like something it wasn't? Did he take the quote out of context? I would not be dumbfounded if not. It is a Watchtower's way of being unfair in making everyone seem who isn't a JW as an enemy)

Please. I beg you. Go to YOUR library. Find this in YOUR library. Prove me wrong. I beg you. And if you can't, then stop your slander. This is ridiculous beyond my comprehension. I will explain this again more clearly if that helps. I wrote down the reference. I missed writing down the volume. I do know that there was only about 10 volumes and that this was one of the middle volumes. I'm sure or anyone could find the “J” section without knowing which volume.

Here is the quote in question that he implies I most likely took out of context. The Watchtower has never listed the reference of where this quote came from other to say that it's from the Encyclopedia Encyclopdedia. (Not the Canadian Encyclopedia)

But here is what I found when I went to the library and actually looked and touched the ecyclopedia myself.

The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph:
“The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. Their services are kept simple. They have no ornate buildings or clerical vestments, no divisions of members into clergy and laity. All are brothers, and every one baptized is under obligation to be a minister.”
(Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6 (possibly volume 5?)

I could go back and check, but I don't see what difference it would make to someone who is out to discredit and disprove JW's. This quote won't help you. So you won't search it out, or anything that would go against what you want to believe.

I laughed out loud at some of what you said. It really isn't worth my time to involve myself in your imaginings.

We could have discussed any one of these things. But you and others who have the same purpose don't really want to discuss, DO THEY?

“They” want to turn people away without any obstacles.
The facts would get in the way and slow them down.
Let's just put down all we can without discussion.
Good plan.
It bothers me that I actually glanced at what you wrote. It's time out of my life I'll never get back. A waist.

My shoes are dusty. I think I'll shake them off. And with the dust, I'll shake off what you said and the bad disposition and lies and slander.

Birthdays and Christmas are not about “salvation” as you claim we believe. I am speaking of not offending God, something you should consider in every aspect of your life.

Is God offended when we join the Wiccan and the pagan's in their customs and do it on the same day they do, with the same practices?
Scripture is pretty clear. God hates lies. God hates those who carry on a lie, and Christmas if full of them.
Ignore these facts until you can sleep well. A seared conscience that has been beaten down isn't a good thing.

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Most of the time will they will not defend themselves when one like myself will present these traditions that are heretical to them and other possible future slaves (they don't pay their workers but muzzle the oxen to build their empire).

I believe you spent a couple pages trying to explain that the workers in Bethal make the big money, depite absolutely no proof. Now, you say they don't pay their workers. It seems you're willing to say anything to suit your needs.

Anyway, things Casey has said in the past:

“I find they are kind and to their credit, devout in studying the Scriptures unlike most of us Protestants our here.”

“Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.”

I find the following statment quite laughable:
“Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? I do not know so I am reluctant to say.”

It is ironic to the extreme that you do exactly what you tell Nick you shouldn't and for the same reason, persuading some.

“Witnesses get a bad rap . . .unfounded most of the time. . . .They hear rumors about JW's and they will not investigate those claims.”

And this, in contradiction to what you say above:
“At least you witnesses know your Bible I will give you that.”

“I have to say when one has an “axe to grind” with the witnesses, more times than not it is all heresay and coming from one who was disfellowshipped. I guess I should be cautious in believing things that I was not there to see and hear and consider all the circumstances around the cases. I found a site on the net that was so rediculous in its treatment of JW's that I could not grasp how people bought in to the sites attacks. One who has any sense of logic and common sense should be able to see right through the tactics they employ. Sadly it isn't the case. People buy into this junk without researching it first.”

“Before I [Casey] have had these discussions with you some of the propoganda I believed.”
Then it seems Casey has some problems with being decieved, either then, or now.
Above, he says:

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They are not in the truth.

But with regard to what this thread is currently talking about, Christmas, is it JW's or those who tell their children lies and those who tell lies to themselves and others that are not in the truth?
JW's have no part of these lies.

REVELATION 22:15
“Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’”

The date is a lie. Santa, and where the gifts come from, most everything to do with the “wise men,” etc, are lies. The rest, paganism. They are lies that are carried on from year to year.
What does the Bible say above?
I guess some like to bury those scriptures deep in their minds.

Casey
“Regarding disfellowshipping . . . .The strange thing is I now think the witnesses are the onl
y group that follows these admonishments from Paul”

Anyway, these are some things that Casey has said. Either he says things he doesn't believe, or doesn't research well before stating things, or is just wrong when he wants to be.

Casey, as I've said, I find most of what you say now to be quite distorted. It's not that I'm not willing to discuss things, as I'm sure you will slanderously accuse me of.
I have spoken with you for some time and 5 or 6 times specifically asked you to stick to one subject. If you really wanted to discuss things, this wouldn't be a problem. If that was your motive, we could discuss things, one at a time.
But when someone is out to propagate certain beliefs against Witnesses, they always do the same thing and they do it exactly as you have, and exactly as I stated you would: List a bunch of things all at once without discussion.
The ironic thing is, if you were trying to show me the error of my ways, lying or stating false things isn't the way to do it. It only tends to build my resolve. On one of the othe JW threads on here, someone much like yourself listed all the things he found, the things he found on the internet.
I actually like discrediting the lies. Remember, i'm not fond of the lies, even the ones tied in a bow and called Christmas. Some, don't mind the lies. I do.
And this guy had put down a lot. If you do research, you'll find that Russel was a mason. If you do more research, you'll find that really he wasn't. There's a lot of anti-JW stuff out there.

“I consider the “truth” about this and every other JW-related issue to be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, because OBVIOUS HORSE[….] like “Russell was a Mason” only serves the WTS's objective of painting XJWs as NUTS and LIARS.”
That quote was submitted by someone called “madapostate.” on a forum about JW's.

I found the quote quite funny because it came from someone against JW's and stated this truth: Get your facts straight, because if you don't, then in your attempt to discredit JW's, you only discredit yourself.

Anyway, I'm done with speaking to Casey. That scripture about shaking the dust off ones feet, JW's follow that scriptural admonition.

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If you notice, the past billion posts from David are about Christmas. You will see that I deemed it prudent at that time that David and I agree to disagree. He had no qualms with my decision and we were going to move forward (him and I not the rest) in military or Adam and Eve (I posted some of my document on here recently if you scroll back). Christmas is about conscience but not for David; for David it is eternal destiny.

I had wanted to discuss adam and eve and soverienty and why things are the way they are, but Casey doesn't want to “discuss” anything. He will go on doing what he does, but won't be discussing anything with me, because I am done with that. As Jehovah's Witnesses, we are primarily concerned with the preaching of the good news of the kingdom and not with defending each and every attack against us. I will let Casey have full reign. If anyone wants to ask me about something he says, please feel free.

I'm going back to the Christmas subject as it's coming and I've recently found this subject interesting.

I'm curious to know what people think of this:

“Yule, the winter solstice, is a festival of peace and a celebration of waxing solar light. I honor the new sun child by burning a[n] oaken yule log in a sacred fire. I honor the great goddess in her many great mother aspects, and the father god as Santa in his old sky god, father time, and holly king forms. I decorate my home with lights and with holly, ivy, mistletoe, evergreens and other herbs sacred to this season. I ring in the new solar year with bells.”––Wiccan High Priestess Selena Fox
]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47345

Casey has repeatedly stated that he hasn't done any real research on the origins of these things. I wish he would follow his own words:

I guess I should be cautious in believing things that I was not there to see and hear and consider all the circumstances around the cases.

david

November 21, 2006 at 11:01 pm#32879

Participant

My little girl who is seven came home last night. She told her mother something that my wife found very ironic. A little girl in her class who is a friend of hers told her she is not allowed to celebrate Christmas or holidays. My little girl asked why and she said that her religion has their own Bible. Wow, from the mouths of babes huh? Even this seven year old girl understands that her religion is not based on “our” Bible or should I say THE Bible, the pure Words of God – undefiled.

November 22, 2006 at 7:40 am#32905

Faith First

Participant

The Jehovah's Witnesses and others are correct on the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter. As Christians we should not be involved in Santa Clause , Christmas trees etc. However the attitude of JW's are wrong. Christmas is an opportunity to share Christ with a perishing world. There again JWs are so opposed to Christ our God they have nothing to offer anyway. There are some decent people within this church however they are honestly mistaken.

November 22, 2006 at 6:35 pm#32921

Participant

Hi and welcome Faith first,
For us there is one God, the Father[1Cor 8]

November 22, 2006 at 8:59 pm#32932

Participant

Faith you have no idea the can of worms you opened with saying “Christ our God”. I had to laugh, not because I disagree with you or find you incorrect in this statement, but because very few if any on this forum believe that Chris is God and that debate was surreal; the relentless cutting and pasting of passages within Scripture to justify arianism is nauseating. I just found it funny because you were showing the error of JW's perspective on Christmas and revealed a doctrine without realizing it. Thanx for that one :laugh:

PS: You may want to scroll back on this particular thread to catch up on how we got to where we are now.

Then you will have a better understanding of David's (the staunch JW on this thread) beliefs. You will find him zealous and admirable for his convictions and knowledge he has.
He has done extensive homework on certain positions he holds dear to him which is commendable…however (you had to see that coming)…

…you will almost despair in attempts of trying to get him to lay aside is presuppositions.

He, like all Watchtower adherents take Position A..

…then using Position A as the standard and litmus test they then infer remnants of their view that they deem as “biblical” (a word you will find being used all the time with Watchtower followers – albeit used with deception) and take a verse so far out of context it will blow your mind.

Position Awhen defined and articulated will be the very foundation on which they build their entire framework using any means necessary to uphold their scheme. Even quoting from sources they see as totally wrong and damnable, demonic teaching. But as long as they can find anything worth using that will portray their position as being valid, they will – regardless of what person or group it is.

The biggest problem and the very core of trying to get a witness such as David to view things outside of the Watchtower doctrines and dogmas is that they are never willing to releasePosition A while discussing differences.

To them Position A is undeniable and beyond reproach; in letting go of Position A even momentarily for the sake of conversation and for the sake of questioning our preconceived tenants we are staunch in defending, is equivalent to letting go of God Himself.

Position A is never to be questioned for it is (supposed) Apostolic and Apostolic authority is authority given by God.

Who would question God's given authority?…no one in their right mind or should I say right born again Spirit would be foolish enough to; even your local pagan would not want to question God's authority if they assumed that authority was what they assumed to be authoritive.

I have to be redundant so many times on this thread because what I say is never considered and by his own admission, he does not even read them but “glances” over them, but since you are new here I will just give you a heads up on how David and witnesses work.

Even prior to his decision to no longer “converse” with me (an addendum to that: He decided to no longer have discussions with me because after years of researching putting my theological bias on the shelf next to the critical rumors you hear floating around out there against JW's which was, also on the shelf) he already had made up in his mine that…

he was right – we were wrong.
he was in “the (t)ruth – we were in the lie.
he was with sight – we were blind.
he submits to an organization of men – we submit to no one.
he is the only one(s) fulfilling Christ's call of evangelizing – we were preaching nothing…
…if he admitted that we were preaching and teaching then what we were teaching and preaching were demonic, idolatrous, deceits if Satan.

So he begins and ends with this premise.

You can place whatever heretical teachings in the stead of Position A
Pick your poison:
– 144,000
– 1914
– Military (pacifism)
– Blood transfusions
– Holidays
– Apostates (those who have been declared unrepentative and heretical. With the former I agree it is the later that is the problem. The later being ones who studied other Christendom material that is seen as demonic because it is now JW orinted)
– Anti Trinity propoganda
– Jesus, the archangel who was Michael
– Jehovah (the name is abused by all Watchtower slaves). The incorrect transliteration from the tetragramatton Hebrew YHWH. The common belief some parts or at most parts Christianity (and cults) that the divine name of God in the OT is “Jehovah.” The name “Jehovah” is not, and never was the name of God in the OT, but is an accidental, fabricated pronunciation of the divine name. Those who came up with this spelling/pronunciation did so from a misunderstanding of the Hebrew as it appears in the OT text. Which mainly derived in the Medieval Times.
– They will tell you that the name “Jehovah” was orignally in the NT but produce sparce evidence that is at best plausible but scholastically inaccurate.
– The NWT as the most accurate translation.
– holy spirit (active force) removing the predicate THE found in the manuscripts.
– a “torture” stake over against the true Roman crucifixion process of the “T” or “t” cross.
– The faithful and discreet slave is the Watchtower, although the founder James Taze Russel was said to be this “slave” singular but was later changed to be the Watchtower “plural”.
– Satan (the god of this world) is glorified in the numerous mention of his name is repeated the same number of times or more than Yeshua “Jesus Christ”.
– Eden – the retreat back to this “perfect” world. Or, let's all live in a huge garden and skip through leaves.
– God's creation including disobediant angels and humans have frustrated God's original plan so the witnesses imply He is not in control or Sovereign. The Sovereignty is given to mankind and “the god of this world”.
– Four to five different resurrections – The wicked are never punished and pay for their sins but will remain unconscience for eternity.
– Heaven – is not the heaven you see in Scripture. It is a fictional place that very few are chosen to go their. The contradiction lies in these few being elected but the original plan with Adam and Eve overturned God's choosing to use them.
– Israel has lost it's promise to be the chosen race.
– Submission to elders – now the submission to spiritual authority is Scriptural but the “elders” at times go above their region of control.
– Needed requirements and “proving” one's dedication to Jehovah before you are eligable for Baptism.

The list is never ending for it is always changing to conform to politically correct, postmodern rules of this secular world. For instance the blood transfusion dogma has come under scrutiny and questioned by some witnesses who are willing to doubt their leaders; that is most rare. Modern medical technology has shed some mupliple lights on blood, plazma, organs…etc,etc. The question that was imposed to the Watchtower was “it is ok to give Plasma or receive Plasma treatments?” The article in which the editor(s) wrote did their very best to jump rope out of the maze of deceit and mind games. Semantics is a very wonderful and dangerous game. The conclusion was basically sure but not sure.

Though of course they will say they are “not part of this world”. They should say they are “not part of Biblical – Holy Spirit filled – Blood Bought – Grace Embraced – Atonement Secured Church of the living God of Yeshua”…that would be more appropriate.

Although you do have to admit, they are definitely not apart of reality, logic or reasoning. They deny the gems you find in just basic psychology, medicine, philosophy and education.

They are also not part of just everyday living. Like all cults they u
se deceptive means to use psychological control over their followers.

Like all cults they start with a philosophy or strange and awkward teaching that even the lost see that God does not require such nonsense.

Like all cults there founder(s) have an issue or multiple issues that planted the seed.

It may even started by taking a Biblically teaching that is clear that they cut out of whatever Christian denomination Church they attended; usually one they liked and could work with.

Then to eraticate totally and completely from any hint or affliation from those groups, they go to the other extreme.

This extreme results in producing a plethora of Position A's.

These Postion A's become the standard by which they view life and Scripture.

When one adherent to this dictator they have given their lives over to “finds” “NEW TRUTHS” then he proports it.

The followers like sheep to the slaughter go, “Yeah, I never saw that before! We should tell everyone this newly found truth that no one else has seen for 1900 years!”

As time goes the leader and his naive sheep who are out to destroy the Church founded by Christ use the Church's Orthodox doctrines taught for 1900 years and uniformally decide to make those doctrines the stage in chipping away one doctrione after another.

You will find they make up their own twisted teachings like the 144,000, 1914, the invisible return of Christ and others. But, for the most part there original agenda started with doing whatever means necessary to deteriorate slowly (as I said and David wants – ONE BY ONE) each point.

The cross, Christmas, Deity of Yeshua, Deity of the Holy Spirit, Sovereignty of God, Jesus prior to the incarnation, Israel, Heaven, Resurrection, Eternity, and the Name of Jehovah that is abused trillions of times by witnesses worldwide.

The staunch “mission impossible” of dethroning these truths end up becoming a dogma and then doctrine; if you disbelieve it, you will perish.

You will scratch your head and want to scream at the screen and go, “OPEN YOUR EYES!!!” but they can't hear you. But, we don't give up. We never give up.

We believe and have “faith” (no pun intended) in the Sovereign work of God using His Holy Spirit to remove the scales from their eyes, like Saul the believer's murderer's – eyes were restored when Christ redeemed Him and then became Paul…the Apostle of Yeshua being the greatest instrument God used in writing 3/4 of our NT.

November 22, 2006 at 9:40 pm#32934

Participant

Hi casey,
Is Christ your God or your Lord?

November 22, 2006 at 10:32 pm#32935

Participant

Both…lord? Kurios…hmmmmmm Sounds like a lot of Jewish superstition crept within the Church unaware maybe?

November 22, 2006 at 10:46 pm#32936

Participant

Hi casey,
Do you worship and pray to two gods or do you follow Jesus?

November 22, 2006 at 11:08 pm#32940

Participant

Casey:

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Once the JW’s have successfully indoctrinated their traditions built on heresies within their “recruits” they then brain wash them taking them step by step slowly but surely one topic at a time. Each topic given an extensive study of course using few verses taken out of context not using correct hermeneutical rules

David:

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I'm not going to go through them one by one, because I have asked him to discuss one thing at a time with me several times.

He knows that actually covering these things one by one would show them to be what they are. So, despite being asked about 5 times

If you really wanted to discuss things, this wouldn't be a problem. If that was your motive, we could discuss things, one at a time.

Casey:

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Normally they will say you are given people half truths or lies that fit your attempt to continue in your “mission”.

David:

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…since I'm a busy guy and you have your mission

Casey:

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Once you conclude they are in error and not matter how much time you spent doing research, speaking with them one on one and two on two, reading their on websites support…etc,etc you will be called a liar, a traitor, being deceitful, having false motives and I could go on and on. If you are not foolish and see through their tactics they will not talk to you anymore because you are just bent on portraying them inaccurately so you can continue your “mission” on trying to destroy them and lying to possible candidates leading them astray in your folly.

David:

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It is ironic to the extreme that you do exactly what you tell Nick you shouldn't and for the same reason, persuading some.

Same reason huh? Wow, I remember a time when I was told that my knowledge on the Watchtower was more than any witness had seen from one who was not a JW.

David:

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“Witnesses get a bad rap . . .unfounded most of the time. . . .They hear rumors about JW's and they will not investigate those claims.”

Casey:

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Normally they will say you are given people half truths or lies that fit your attempt to continue in your “mission”.

David:

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…he doesn't feel twisting the truth is wrong in this endevour.

He is doing what all who want to slander JW's do. State as much as they can in a long list of half truths, mixed with lies.

he has chosen again to throw out all he can in an attempt to discredit JW's.

so why not say as much as possible whether it is true or untrue?

The ironic thing is, if you were trying to show me the error of my ways, lying or stating false things isn't the way to do it. It only tends to build my resolve. On one of the othe JW threads on here, someone much like yourself listed all the things he found, the things he found on the internet.
I actually like discrediting the lies. Remember, i'm not fond of the lies, even the ones tied in a bow and called Christmas. Some, don't mind the lies. I do.

The science is semantics is a wonderful and dangerous thing. It can acquit you or condemn you in a court of law. One wrong word and you will find yourself trying to explain yourself in vain to the jury once a word has been applied. Here you will notice the “slight of hand”. He admits that he thinks “some…is true” but then puts in “UNTRUE” which of course the reader will remember last according to medical studies. Notice it wasn’t “untrue or true.”

Casey:

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David:

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I really don't feel like showing you my proof. As you said, you believe that most everything the watchtower quotes are biased. Of course, when I did this research, as I said earlier, I checked 10 encyclopedias, all I could find easily. They all said the same thing. I'm not going to give you any of these quotes. They all say the exact same thing: The early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because they considered them idolatrous.

Casey:

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You can take exact quotes verbatim and they will say you are lying

Well the below is just an example of a JW’s response (though he assured us he was no longer speaking with me?) of what I just took out of my recent post that I quoted above. It should be clearly seen I was not in error in my statements.

David:

Quote

QUOTE:
I had decided not to respond to Casey after his string of lies, but after this post, I will not even read anything Casey has to say.

Giving any more time to Casey would only seem to support his fallacious lies.

And I no longer have any problems using that word with reference to what Casey is doing.

Everything I have said he would do, he has. Instead of sticking to one subject and actually di
scussing it and what the Bible say, (as I am trying to do with Christmas and birthdays) he has chosen to disregard my asking him to do this.

… in your imaginings.

…I'll shake off what you said and the bad disposition and lies and slander.

That’s ok David, I didn’t expect you to continue talking when the conclusion of my endeavors were reached. So, go ahead and shake the sands of Egyptian Pharaohs off your feet. You have a new culture that will fulfill your lusts of binding yourself. Like Egypt, The Watchtower burns and destroys all evidence that could and would be used against them in a court of law, or in this case, facts that are attempted to be removed from History.

November 23, 2006 at 3:23 am#32969

Faith First

Participant

The following verses indicate that Christ is both Lord and God.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Rev 22:8-9 indicates that worship belongs only to God

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Scripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship.

Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

The scripture is very clear that Christ is God and a member of the Godhead consisting of three Divine Persons.

November 23, 2006 at 3:32 am#32970

Participant

Hi FF,
When we look at scripture for doctrine we look first for statements of faith.
Jesus was a Teacher and a prophet and he himself was the truth.
Every word that came from His mouth was inspired by the Spirit of God.
Such as
Matt 18
” 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! “

So what of the observations and behaviours and exclamations of his followers? Do they have the same teaching value as the words of Christ?

Jesus was utterly deserving of honour as a servant vessel for God. Rightly those with spiritual eyes saw his exalted status and the treasure within him.

Thomas had been told that when they saw Christ they also saw God in him.[Jn 14]

He understood and his remark and behaviours reflected that.

But those that would teach the simple little children of God from outside of scriptural truth, human doctrines that may harm their relationship with God, risk the millstone around their neck and being thrown into the sea

Rev 17
21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

November 23, 2006 at 6:10 am#32983

Participant

“YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me.” (JOHN 8:44-45)

Casey, likes to lie in regard to what JW’s believe. He states:

“- Satan (the god of this world) is glorified in the numerous mention of his name is repeated the same number of times or more than Yeshua “Jesus Christ”.

Lying doesn't bother Casey apparently

I can’t help but wonder how he would even know this? Is there any way for him to know this? Is he a blatant liar making things up as he pleases or did he get this off of one of his “factual” internet sites and not follow his own words, of searching these things out?

One of us is a liar. One of us apparently has no problem with fabricating absolute lies and seems to be from his father, Satan. Satan likes to lie too.
One of us is fine with the lies of christmas, and “carrying on a lie.” (Rev 22:15) But it’s not me.
One of us likes to apparently randomly create false stories to help his slander.
But it’s not me.

I know I said I wouldn’t read his words any more (I’m sorry, I had the time and I failed in this) because they are slanderous lies, and there is no point, but my problem, is that I can’t help but believe some want to believe these things, when they are gross misrepresentations of the truth. I think instead of wasting my time further with this, I’ll just point blank repeat every so often that Casey is without question fond of lying.

Even after he admitted that most of what people believe are based on very little and false, he still wants to or tries to pass stuff like this off. Incredibly bold and hypocrital or just unwise.

So here are the actual facts. The non-lies. In the Watchtower and Awake for example, we see Satan and Devil occuring 18,000 times. Jesus and Christ occur 130,000 times.

Watchtower and Awake magazines(Last 50 years)

(Satan in the Bible 92 times)11,800 times
(Devil in the Bible 59 times)6,500 times

(Jesus in the Bible 1110 times)91,000 times
(Christ in the Bible 748 times)45,000 times

In Casey's world, (and Satan's) truth means very little, apparently.

And facts, also, very little. He'll shug this off and say I avoided everything else. But really, why would this statement ever be here when it is based on absolutely nothing other than a lie he apparently made up?
It’s sad that the god of this system of things has blinded him to obvious truth.

Another example that caught my eye was this:

“There is actually no place called heaven that anyone goes to”

This is supposed to be a JW belief. Yet, EVERYONE ON HERE KNOWS THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. It's a crazy bold lie that I can't believe he would dare try.
I, a JW started a thread called: “Does Anyone Go to Heaven?” and in that thread I argued that people do go to heaven, despite everyone else who is vocal on this thread arguing the opposite, that no one ever goes to heaven at any time, ever.
Despite me, a JW being one of the only vocal people on this thread who believes that people go to heaven, I am accused of the exact opposite.

This is ridiculous beyond imagination.

I applaud his creativity but it is grossly misused and unhonorable. In other words, lies.

The two things above are examples of outright outrageous gross deception.
The following I guess would be an exampe of a half truth, or not the whole story.

JW's do not participate in sports that could risk their life
Skydiving?…it was astonishing when I read this in their literature. I guess that would leave out:
Surfing
Football
Roller coasters or amusement parks
Rock climbing
Parasailing or Ultra light flyers
Hang-gliding

Yes, JW’s generally avoid risking our lives in extreme sports, because we consider life a Gift from God, sacred and not to be thrown away needlessly.
So that article that he looked at probably outlined some Bible principles regarding how God views life, encouraging others to look at life in a similar vein.
Have you heard of Shonte People’s? He’s a professional football player (Saskatchewan Roughriders). Oh, and a JW. (I’m from Saskatchewan. I’ve met his wife.) I’ve played football about 25 times in the past 5 years. If Casey had been paying attention to other threads, such as the “chat” thread, he would have known that I’m soon going back to Disneyworld (roller coaster or amusement parks) again.
So that’s a half-truth, where he starts with something and doesn’t give the whole story, or the scriptural backing for why we are encouraged to be safe in our life, and then he builds his own false story around it and adds things. This is why I encouraged him repeatedly to speak on one subject at a time. So we could actually dismiss the falsehoods and uncover what the Bible says.

But that's not Casey's thing.

Lying is easier and quicker.

david

November 23, 2006 at 6:27 am#32985

Participant

Casey, has said on this thread:

“Before I [Casey] have had these discussions with you some of the propoganda I believed.”
I just don't want anyone to believe his propaganda.

“Witnesses get a bad rap . . .unfounded most of the time. . . .They hear rumors about JW's and they will not investigate those claims.”
Follow Casey's advice and investigate and question his words. Above, we see that some of what he says is unbelievably “unfounded,” and proves that he was right when he said that these things are “unfounded most of the time.”

Casey also stated:
“Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone?
Apparently, it's easier to do than Casey thought.

Do lies persuade?

Speaking of those who have an “axe to grind” with JW's, Casey stated:
One who has any sense of logic and common sense should be able to see right through the tactics they employ. Sadly it isn't the case. People buy into this junk without researching it first.”

david

November 23, 2006 at 7:18 am#32990

Participant

Refering to JW’s, Casey states:
You will scratch your head and want to scream at the screen and go, “OPEN YOUR EYES!!!” but they can't hear you. But,we don't give up. We never give up.

Casey, a page earlier: “Oxy give it up on David.”

I would love to believe that Casey actually had some part of him that wanted to show me truth. The lies keep getting in the way, and make me believe it was never about helping me.

What the Bible says could be discussed, but there are certain things that are extremely easy to prove that either Casey is simply lying to suit his purposes or he just doesn’t follow his own advice of researching these claims. I’m only going to show the things that can be disproven based on what people generally should know from this forum and that can be checked on other threads of this forum, and easily shown to be lies:

Casey states that JW’s believe:

“You must never praise Yeshua”
I never said that. We praise each other. Why wouldn’t we praise Jesus? In the “Worship” thread, you’ll find what was actually said. Go check.

“All holidays are pagan.“
Never said that. We don’t believe that. Some are simply nationalistic or worldly, etc. But JW’s don’t believe what is stated above. It’s the opposite of truth.

“All other Biblical translations are stemmed from pagan roots of Trinitarian schemes and are therefore not the final say but must be read in accordance with the NWT in order to find the most accurate rendering.”
Pagan roots? Who said that? You shouldn’t use the word “all” so much. It tends to make your statements wrong, false. There are several threads where you could find what we actually believe on this.

“God is Sovereign but man's free will along with the “god of this world” frustrated and thwarted God's INTENDED purpose”
Yet, I specifically said to Casey that God’s purpose could never be thwarted. I think this is the first time I’ve seen him use the word “thwart” or “purpose” in relation to this. These are words that I’ve repeated several times, stating that God’s purpose could not be thwarted. This one you’ll find on this thread. Go check.

“There is actually no place called heaven that anyone goes to”
I know I’ve already stated this one, but it just baffles me how anyone could buy that we believe this, based on everything I’ve said on this forum and in the “Do people go to heaven” thread.

“WWII proves we were the only true believers.”
I’ve never stated this and if I checked the “war” thread or even this thread, you’ll see what I actually said and what we truthfully believe.

“If one does not do so and it is seen that they seldom if ever do, it will be suspicious in the elders eyes.
The encouragement would be given but eventually admonishment would be needed.”
Here, he's pretty much misrepresenting what I said again. Anyone can go back and check this thread. It will take some time though. This is not what I said. And this is not really true.

“So when referring to Scripture “active force” is more appropriate than Holy Spirit. “
We really only use the words “active force” when dealing with people who have a misunderstanding of what God’s holy spirit is. We don’t, as he claims, do this. I guess this one I can’t substantiate by pointing to another thread. But if you’d look at the discussions I’ve had of the holy spirit, you’ll notice I don’t refer to it by calling it “active force” but that I do explain that scripture points to that as being an appropriate description of what it is.

“…but then there is a third group – the resurrected unrighteous who get a second chance
…then there is a fourth group the wicked who will be judged by sleeping forever
… only we haven't worked out the fifth yet. The Jews whom God will graft back into the original vine when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in”
All I’m going to say here is that he seems really mixed up as to what we believe.

Anyway, this is ridiculous.
I’m sorry. I was trying to only show the things that are obviously wrong and can be checked in other threads to discern that Casey’s statements are half truths and misrepresentations.
If something Casey said concerns you, please check these threads or ask me to see what we really believe, or what the truth is.

David.

November 24, 2006 at 2:57 pm#33081

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote

If Casey had been paying attention to other threads, such as the “chat” thread, he would have known that I’m soon going back to Disneyworld (roller coaster or amusement parks) again.

Hi David from Disneyworld,
I'm here with my family for vacation and having a great time. The new coaster in Animal kingdom is a lot of fun. I do have a question, your always quoting “have no part of the world”, which I believe to mean not letting the world be the source for my desires and/or motivation, but from what i've understood from you to mean avoid anything with pagan roots. While the characters are cute, they are mostly made up on lies and in some cases actual pagan roots (I also fear that there are some who inadvertently worship them). Most of the rides are also based on lies. To me (like Paul with the idols) I know they are nothing, but it seems somewhat inconsistant with your stand. Please don't think I'm trying to ruin your trip in any way, hope you have a great time.
Wm

November 25, 2006 at 4:32 am#33095

Participant

HI Seekingtruth.

I'm glad you're having a good time. Have you been to mission: space, and what is it like?

Quote

I do have a question, your always quoting “have no part of the world”, which I believe to mean not letting the world be the source for my desires and/or motivation, but from what i've understood from you to mean avoid anything with pagan roots.

In my mind pagan roots aren't bad because they are a part of the world. They are bad because they are pagan roots.

Quote

While the characters are cute, they are mostly made up on lies and in some cases actual pagan roots

I only really remember one ride there that there was reservations about going on. It had something to do with some mythical god legend. I don't remember exactly. I have no idea what it was called. But when you say that the rides are based on lies and paganism, what do you mean? I know that some of the rides are based on mythology of false gods. I understand this. But what do you mean of lies?

November 25, 2006 at 5:25 am#33099

Participant

Casey stated:
“I have to be redundant so many times on this thread because what I say is never considered and by his own admission, he does not even read them but “glances” over them, but since you are new here I will just give you a heads up on how David and witnesses work.

he was right – we were wrong.
he was in “the (t)ruth – we were in the lie.“

Well, Casey does in fact lie. And I am right in believing that.
It would have been easier to believe Casey at least had pure motives if he was willing to discuss them as I asked or if he was truthful or honest in his approach.
I had asked him repeatedly to limit his accusations and false statements to one at a time. Then, I could show where he was wrong, or we could at least discuss the misrepresentations. He clearly didn't want to discuss anything. He came to the conclusion he wanted to and surrounded that conclusion with lies to make himself feel good about it.
And the reason I had decided not to converse with him was because it's clear that his motives are wholey impure, based on the above. He has no desire to honestly study scripture with me or discuss beliefs.

There is a Thread on Catholics on here. Threads on mormons, etc. He only chose to speak about Jehovah's Witnesses. I wonder why this is.

It bothers me that more on here aren't outraged by his blatent string of lies. He repeatedly claimed that he didn't want to just believe things about JW's without searching them out and studying them. This was not true of him. When it came down to it, I think perhaps he just wanted to make himself feel more secure about his life and the decisions he's chosen.
But some things he wrote were obviously lies to any who have read even just parts of this forum.

Casey:
“ I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? “

This bothers me greatly too. He says “I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds.” Yet he did just that. And I believe it was to “persuade some,” as he accuses Nick of doing. There's a word for this.

It bothers me that I have to speak this way. It bothers me that I went back and read the lies he posted, when I said I wouldn't. But his methods of “persuading” are bad.

Again, if there is anyone on here who read something he has posted, which may or may not be completely made up from his mind, or which may be explained by scripture, please ask. As I said to him about 4 times, let's discuss one thing at a time.

Casey, Oct 26, this thread:
As I said, they are half truths with no backing up by most who make such false statements. One can say some of these things but not further explain why this is so. Other times they are lies as you can see. Whether I agree with your doctrine is another subject but for now I think all of us witnesses should know what is actually taught and not what the “party line” is saying.

He had done this before. I should have known.
Casey, Oct 20, this thread:
Ok David. . .Now, I am not trying to speak ill. As you yourself said, we get caught up in the heat of emotions. I personally was dealing with some crisis in my life this week that would have changed my entire life for the worst. I apologize for being rude and ATTACKING YOU AND MAKING ACCUSATIONS THEY MAY HAVE BEEN UNTRUE. I have stated some truths though sir. So if you can be forgiving (I have been offended at some of your comments too, but it’s all good) then let’s continue shall we?

November 25, 2006 at 5:32 am#33100

Participant

MATTHEW 5:11
““Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake.”

This was certainly true of the early Christians. When the apostle Paul was detained in Rome, about 59-61 C.E., Jewish leaders there said of Christians: “Truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.” (Acts 28:22) Paul and Silas were accused of having “overturned the inhabited earth,” acting “in opposition to the decrees of Caesar.”—Acts 17:6, 7.

MATTHEW 11:19
“the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, ‘Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.””

LUKE 7:34-35
“The Son of man has come eating and drinking, but YOU say, ‘Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children.””

In an effort to discredit Jesus Christ, people laid these charges against him. They were obvious lies.

Casey had chosen to represent himself with the avatar of a WOLF.

I quite often wondered why he chose to represent himself that way? Wolves aren't spoken of well in the Bible.

They're spoken of as false prophets (Mt 7:15),
vicious opposers of the Christian ministry (Mt 10:16; Lu 10:3), as well as false teachers that would endanger the Christian congregation from within (Ac 20:29, 30)

I can't help but wonder if he subconsciously knows what he is doing, and this is why he picked that avatar out of the hundreds–the wolf–the only available avatar image specifically spoken of so negatively against true Christianity.

November 25, 2006 at 5:47 am#33102