Jehovah's Witness Church

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,09:00)

Hi Oxy, For those who do not respond to the message the birth of the Saviour should rather be a time of weeping? Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children

Nick, that's very true. Unfortunately they do not realise their plight, but it is evident at funerals. I have attended a few funerals lately. One Christian, in which there was a celebration and two non-Christian in which there was despair. The contrast is amazing, but rightly shows the difference between the lost and the saved.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 17 2006,13:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,09:00) Hi Oxy, For those who do not respond to the message the birth of the Saviour should rather be a time of weeping? Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children Nick, that's very true. Unfortunately they do not realise their plight, but it is evident at funerals. I have attended a few funerals lately. One Christian, in which there was a celebration and two non-Christian in which there was despair. The contrast is amazing, but rightly shows the difference between the lost and the saved.

Amen Oxy.

Keep going.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Nov. 16 2006,01:22)

I don't consider truth to be a bad thing. I consider myself to be on the side of truth. The truth is that: Christmas and it's customs originated from paganism Christmas is filled with lies (the date, everything about the magi, Santa, etc). These things are undeniably true. And I'm sorry if the truth offends some. I'm also trying to point out that God hated what these people were doing and that to imitate their customs is questionable at the very least, and disgusting at the worst.

david.

It doesn't matter what the pagans do because we are in God and the Evil One touches us not.

Pagans wear clothes, so what should we do?

Pagans have December 25 as a holiday, what are we to do?

You cannot judge correctly by saying a pagan holiday contaminates all who celebrate on that day. You give our adversary way to much power. If he claims a day, does it belong to him or to the LORD?

It belongs to the LORD. December 25 is the LORD's and it pleases him when people honour him on that day or any day.

david, you look to the physical, but cannot see beyond that.

As a Christian, I am free to make any day of the year holy, I am free to make all days holy (inc Dec 25). This is my right as a believer. Neither you nor your denomination can change the truth and the liberty I have in Christ.

The Pharisees condemned Jesus for saving people on the Sabbath and sure they could argue their point of view in a physical sense. You and the JWs condemn those who celebrate around the Christmas period. You can argue this in the physical too.

But you ignore the greater freedom we have in Christ. It is actually lawful for Christians to honour God on December 25, scripture clearly teaches this. It is actually the Devil who doesn't want us to honour God on that day or any day.

Again the danger of giving your faith to a man-made organisation like the Jehovah Witnesses is exposed. You neglect the freedom we have in Christ and you also neglect clear teaching in scripture to hold to the teachings of men. Even worse than that, you judge others incorrectly by holding to that which your denomination holds to.

A warning for those who wish to hand their faith over to a denomination. “Please do not do it”. You will end up putting some things of men before the things of God.

Rather crucify yourselves and let Christ live in you. Save people on the Sabbath and celebrate God at Dec 25 and every day.

Amen.

[Casey S Smith 29]

To any JW's:

t8 said a comment ironically I had made on a document I worked on for a week but due to the previous discussions I put off posting in in order to not interupt the flow. However, I think it is time.

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You give our adversary way to much power.

Well stated t8. I know there will be some or many who till diagree with my theological view on the Sovereignty and Providence of God in control of all events ordaining and allowing them for His Purposes, Pleasure, Will to be carried out regardless of the “free will” choices and actions made by us silly humans of flesh and bone. So with that said I will now paste it:

David (a JW on this site) said:

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Casey, we realize that this kingdom is heavenly. It's sometimes called the heavenly kingdom. Heaven was not originally where God put Adam and Eve. He made them flesh and put them on the earth, in a paradise. Had they not disobeyed, they could have followed their commision to mulitply and fill the earth and could have thuse turned the entire earth into a paradise.

Here is the very point I have been trying so hard to get across on this part of the thread. There is no possibility to even have “had they not disobeyed” or “if” they had not disobeyed. Adam and Eve had no conception of evil or good, bliss-paradise or pain-hell, injustice or mercy, kindness or cruelty, forgiveness or grudges…etc,etc. In eternity humans would never have had the capability to conceive statements like, “Our God is Faithful…Our God is Merciful, Our God is Grace, Our God is Forgiving, Our God is Holy…” for their minds in this state that you term as “perfection” not only could not comprehend but would not have understood what these attributes given to God all through Scripture would mean; even if these words I have written were defined for them assuming for the sake of conversation that those words could be described without the dichotomy or antonym of each…they still would not know what it meant for YHWH being Holy. What is Holy to Adam and Eve prior to the fall? They couldn’t tell you. If the previous statement were even a possibility of happening, holiness being defined would not be coherent in their frame of mind…that is – PRIOR TO THE FALL…THE BEST IS YET…TO COME!!!
(Romans 11 ESV)
33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

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Death was spoken of as a punishment for their disloyalty. And Jesus (mat 5:5) and several other places in the Bible show that that is still God's purpose for mankind. Satan didn't thwart that purpose. But because of what happnened, God set up a subsiduary rulership, the kingdom. He lovingly decided that it should be ruled by those who have faced the challenges knwon to us.

You quite rightly said, “…that is still God’s purpose for mankind…” & “Satan didn’t thwart that purpose”. I believe in these comments with my life. You say God’s purpose still stands, you say Satan didn’t thwart that purpose…but then you say:

“But because of what happened, God…” Let’s break that statement down and see if it can be spoken of out of the same mouth that just comments before said, “Satan didn’t thwart that purpose…”
I will quote verbatim again IN CAPS: BUT – BECAUSE – OF – WHAT – HAPPENED- GOD – _ happened, THEREFORE GOD _, you believe indeed that God’s plan can be thwarted not merely by Satan, but my humans as well. You are in essence saying that our human “choices” will make God change His original intentions time and again in responding to what puny little man, His very creation – does. As if it is, “well I had a plan for David but he did _ and maybe _ and maybe that will work. I guess we’ll all see? :::Father talking to the Son:::” Following your theological scheme to its end one must conclude or should I say the witnesses must conclude that God has to keep changing His original plans and purposes for His decrees came to naught and fall short of what God wanted to bring about in contrast with Isaiah 55: 10″For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

So, what you said originally was in stark contrast to what you said after that, therefore you did actually contradict yourself and all witnesses contradict themselves by believing the same premise that is not Biblical but is a tradition that has been passed down for a hundred years now.

It is a discussion and debate that has been going on for centuries, “how does one reconcile the decisions, actions or ‘choices’ of man with God’s Sovereign decree?” One wise man of God said so honestly in reply, “you don’t reconcile friends.” I do not wish to get into the centuries old Calvinist vs. Armenian positions. There have been volumes written on these two opinions and I would be doing an injustice to the millions of pages written. What I do wish to refute is the unbiblical, illogical, unfounded, untenable, in vain explained the ideology of thinking:

IF ADAM AND EVE HAD NOT SINNED WE WOULD BE CURRENTLY LIVING IN PARADISE

If this becomes a topic on this thread which I have not doubt it will then mediate on these verses. I must warn you, if you accept what these verses mean and accept that what God has said is true, your outlook on God and your entire thinking in which you view all things done under the sun will be changed in one second; I know, it did mine. It will shatter your self-man made (g)od in a box and GOD will become larger and more awesome than you have ever seen! If you rationalize and in your flesh do whatever need be to squirm out of accepting them as they are so simply put, then God will remain god until you see He is GOD. Our God is Sovereign. Our God cannot be coerced. Our God does not fail in ANYTHING He wishes, desires, intends and plans on brining about. Not the drunk driver who crosses the medium and kills a family. Not a sly little serpent hanging around a garden.

Lamentations 3:37-38 (English Standard Version)
37Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?

38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?
Lamentations 3:37-38
Today's New International Version (TNIV)
37 Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?
Lamentations 3:37-38 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
37 Who is there who speaks and it happens,
unless the Lord has ordained [it]?
38 Do not both adversity and good
come from the mouth of the Most High?

Isaiah 45:5-10

5I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,

6that people may know, f
rom the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
8″Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
9″Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?'
or 'Your work has no handles'?
10Woe to him who says to a father, 'What are you begetting?'
or to a woman, 'With what are you in labor?'”

Romans 9:10-24 (English Standard Version)
10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call– 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory– 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 11
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3″Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
30Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[k] receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Now there are a lot of verses that should put to rest any notion that Adam & Eve would have remained perfect “IF” they had not done some thing. According to these few verses alone it is seen that God has SOLA TOTAL CONTROL over every event that comes to pass. You may say that “only if” but God is saying, “Now that that is out of the way let’s move forward in fulfilling my full decree in which I have declared the end from the beginning…” or as the Scriptures say it best:
Isaiah 46:9-10 (English Standard Version)
9remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
I point out specifically key phrases that one must consider in dealing with the idea of any creature thwarting the persons of God or even in choosing what their so called “free will” does:
7I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.

According to this it is apparent that the fall was not outside of God’s plan…

11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—

…and prior to any of us being born, God’s Sovereign choosing will be carried out in us who are but a mere thought in the mind of God in eternity before we were even conceived…

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy

… human will like that of Adam and Eve…

“For this very purpose I have raised you up,

…here we see God speaking of His purpose in creating Pharaoh, a choice Pharaoh had no power to detract from…

he hardens whomever he wills.
…He hardens Adam and Eve to disobey Him, all in order to carry out a plan far beyond the scope of things and far beyond the grasp of any human mind to conceive…

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory– 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
…the verse of all verses…the first time I read Romans 9 I through my Bible across the table in tears and yelled, “that’s not fair”, little did I know it would be these very verses that shattered my god in a box. The irony is, when I present the Biblical Truth of God’s electing Grace and His Providence over every action on earth, I am more times than not, yelled out by these very words. It normally goes, “that would make God unfair” or “well that makes God a respecter of persons” or “then why evangelize” or “then why pray” or “well we choose our destiny”…and the list goes on and never ends with rebuttals that are shattered by the very Words of God. Who am I to try and defend God? I will let God be God and let people deal with Him and His Words themselves…
The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
…more verses showing that God hardened or made stubborn the unbelieving Israelites/Jews…ALL A MEANS TO A WONDERFUL END IN WHICH ALL OF CREATION WILL BOW BEFORE GOD’S SOVEREIGN PLAN, A PLAN THAT IS USED BY BROKEN VESSELS OF WRATH AND GLORY!!!
So, with all of that said I post your reply and ask you to answer your own questions in light of God’s Word.
If these Scriptures are not enough, I have tons more that coincide with these and that all speak of God in terms of being Sovereign.

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Quote 4) GOD IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY DECREED ALL OF THE EVENTS FROM ADAM AND EVE TO THIS CURRENT TIME. NOTHING IS OUTSIDE OF HIS WILL, NOTHING SHOCKS HIM, NOTHING SURPRISES HIM…HIS PLANS WILL SUCCEED. SATAN HAS NO AUTHORITY OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN HIM WHICH IS LIMITED AT BEST. Of course his plans will succeed. It shouldn’t even be called a plan. “I plan to do this.” “I plan to do that.” Jehovah purposes to do things. He doesn’t plan to do them. Of course Satan has only been granted authority from Jehovah to prove his claims, and that is limited….but it is not little. He is three times called the “ruler of the world,” in scripture. The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one, the Bible says. He is misleading the entire inhabited earth, the Bible says. He is the very god of this system of things the Bible says. He is both world ruler and the world’s god. But the world will be done away with, the Bible says.

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If you believe that God planned for Adam to sin, that’s it’s own subject. (A lot of these things should be their own subjects.) Nothing is outside of his will, you say? Sodom and Gomorrah? The days of Noah? Rape? All part of his will? Why do we pray for his will to take place if nothing is outside of his will? I guess you could mean that it’s all part of his plan, and so things like rape have their place in his will?

Yes, Yes, Yes,Yes,Yes…

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That seems wrong to me.

Well David, as a human of flesh who does not know the beginning from the end let alone declare them and speak in terms of them as if it has already happened, it seems wrong to me too. It seems wrong to ALL who have come to grips with the fact that GOD ACTUALLY DOES FULFILL HIS PURPOSES. Most people like even you yourself (which I will paste below) give lip service in saying things like, “of course God gets His will done and plan and…” but they and you do not really mean it. If you did, then you would believe them. But as you have said with your remarks, you don’t believe it. You believe Satan, the serpent, the devil, the accuser, the “god of this world” (not Earth David – the world; there’s a huge difference) has the control. You post Scriptures that show Satan has deceived, blinded and has the world in the grasp of his hands. To that I do not disagree. You leave out the verses that show God has given Satan these blind, hardened, stubborn, wicked, evil, deceitful…vessels of wrath, non-elect sons of Satan. Like the Pharisees they are sons of their father the murderer. Satan does not have ANY power or will that God has not so much as granted or given him. Satan COULD NOT touch Job – UNLESS, God let him. Satan could not touch Peter – UNLESS, Jesus let him. Satan could not touch Jesus, unless the Father or the Son – LET HIM!

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The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. Satan is the “ruler of the world.” Remember, he's the god of this world. He's good at what he does. He trickes people into doing things he wants them to. He puts “fun” all over bad things. Wraps them up nicely. Gives them innocent names. He portrays himself as an angel of light.

I have seen and see all the time Satan given so much glory in witness comments and literature. I can see him now clapping at some of these things you and other JW’s say and going, “yes, yes, I do do these things quite well. It has taken me thousands of years but it is always nice to hear that I am good at what I do…” Does it not bother you that Satan has been given so much power and sovereignty over us in your rhetoric? Is God so impotent that he cannot keep this “ruler, god, angel of light” from overturning God’s own purpose? You would do well to place God back on the throne in all His power, splendor and Glory. Let God me God and quit talking about who runs the wicked system.
If I were you, or any witness…if I were any Pentecostal or Charismatic, if I were any sort of Armenian adherent, I would shake in my shoes and pull the covers up to my neck and shiver in sheer fear. If there is ONE ATOM outside of the plan, will, decree, thought or whatever word you want to place there that is powerful enough to defeat what God wanted all along, I nor you nor any other CREATED thing would be a match for it. However, I KNOW that all “atoms” are moving just as God told them to.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

[Casey S Smith 29]

I had already been working on this in regards to Warefare and the believer so here it is.

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Or do you find instead a surprising amount of “rotten” fruit, “the works of the flesh . . . fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries”? (Galatians 5:19-21) Likening men to trees, the Bible says that every “tree” producing such fruit is due to be destroyed. —Matthew 7:17-19; 12:33.

I do not think your argument here holds validity. The Scriptures Paul spoke of were given to the Church and not to the Nations whose job it is to defend the people’ of their lands against the enemies who wish to cause harm – Al Queda ring a bell? 9-11 ring a bell? Osama Bin Laden ring a bell?

The other Scripture reference made my Yeshua likewise is has no bearing on civil authorities. You seem to gloss over my defense of the Roman Soldier who was not rebuked by John the Baptist for being a Roman soldier, he was rebuked for taken advantage of his position. Jesus also never spoke ill of the centurion. In fact, Jesus was amazed at the faith of the centurion faith when he said, “Who am I that you come under my roof. I have soldiers under me whom I say, ‘come’ and they come, ‘go’ and they go. Notice Jesus did not speak of any “rotten fruit” of the powerful leader of the Roman armies.

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BAD FRUITAGE CAUSES CHRISTIANITY TO BE SPOKEN AGAINST 2 PETER 2:1-3 “However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE SPOKEN OF ABUSIVELY.”

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with war – nothing. Again, verses are taken out of context by you David or the witnesses in order to defend your position. You need to learn these words – Eisogesis and Exagesis (the spelling may be off). You do not practice hermeneutics appropriately by adhering to the guidelines of interpreting the Scriptures which is Exagesis. You are Eisogeting the text – reading into it something that does not pertain to one’s opinion. You are viewing these verses biasly through postmodern eyes. What false prophets id Peter referring to here? Whomever they are, they will bring destructive sects (Jehovah’s witnesses ?) and deny the owner (Yeshua) who bought them. Again, nothing is mentioned of politics or warfare. If you say that it does which I am sure you will, then your folly goes before you and there is nothing I can do for you unless you open your mind to reason and tests your doctrine with the WHOLE of Scripture. I have stated repeatedly that denominations take a verse or two or three and base an entire sect that ranks up into the hundreds, thousands and millions. Your denomination and I do mean denomination regardless if you deny such, is among the list.

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“Perhaps nothing has done more to discredit Christianity than its practice of taking a stand virtually indistinguishable from that of non-Christians on the practice of war,” notes The Christian Century article. “That Christians on the one hand espouse the faith of the gentle Savior while on the other they warmly support religious or nationalistic wars has gone far toward damaging the faith.” JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES Casey, I'll put that weird quote from the Encyclopedia Canadiana here: The Encyclopedia Canadiana (Under Jehovah’s Witnesses), second paragraph: “The work of Jehovah's Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practiced by Jesus and his disciples during the first and second centuries of our era. . . .All are brothers.” (Toronto : Grolier of Canada, c1957-80. Vol 6?)

David, as sscot stated truthfully, you are not consistent in your ideological measures by which you need to be measured. You say that and actually witnesses abroad say their foundation and defense is not man’s creeds, traditions or teachings…that it is based on biblical (NWT) principals. Yet, you quote secular sources to back up your claims. Your claims here on warfare and your claims on holidays. It behooves me as to why you deem it worthy to go outside to defend your theories. If the JW’s argue against tradition and hold to the Trinity as a pagan tradition claiming that the Council of Nicea and specifically Constantine founded this Godhead on Greeco-Roman pagan gods, how come you are quoting sources from the same time period and basing their words as Sola Truth and the litmus test by which warfare and holidays are scrutinized? It seems and I think it safe to say, that the JW’s have passed down a tradition that has developed progressively as time unfolds. The other thing I find intriguing is the witnesses are continuously changing their perspectives in keeping with the time – albeit even secular time. If a truth is a truth, it has always been a truth. If it is proven untruthful the obvious outcome and conclusion is that it never was indeed a truth.

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EARLY CHRISTIANS AND WAR Says Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E…. In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) “Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] Tertullian, a Christian writer born more than 100 years after Christ’s death, helps us to see how many early Christians viewed warfare and participation in it What do these events show? That in ancient Israel, the decision to make war rested with God. (Deuteronomy 32:35, 43) He had his people fight for specific purposes. However, these purposes were long ago accomplished. Furthermore, Jehovah foretold that those who serve him “in the final part of the days” would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4) Clearly, Biblical wars do not justify modern-day conflicts, none of which are fought under God’s direction or at his command.

So, it is assumed according to the above paragraph that “war rested with God” and “none (wars) of which are fought under God’s direction or at His command. The discussion of God’s commands will be a later discussion. But by these comments you make God passive and basically are presuming that He is letting us duke it out and kill ourselves. What you and other adherents of Armenian thesis fail to recognize that Scripture time and time and time again affirms that ALL EVENTS of God’s creation are under His Sovereign control. So God is not flippantly sitting on His throne merely “sitting down” doing absolutely nothing. Modern day conflicts are just as justifiable and under God’s authoritive command as in the times of the OT; as if God just stopped commanding battles after Christ came.

You will in no doubt misunderstand passages in Scripture that show Christ’s humility
and not defending Himself unto the cross but again like most of your passages you paste, they are not considered correctly in taking them in context. Jesus nowhere even IMPLIED that warfare was unjust or sinful. He would without a doubt call terrorism against the innocent murder, but not all killing is murder.

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That is not true of the carnal warfare of any nation today.

Of course assuming warfare at ANYTIME is not carnal? So you admit there is righteous warfare that has spiritual connotations. Well it’s about time!

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Christians are not under the Mosaic Law.

Mosaic law: 613 commandments that contain truth. Once again we see the JW double standards. Blood transfusions are defend almost entirely on OT passages. It is despising when I hear, “well, Christians are not bound by the law…” You would think that most Christians should remove the OT and just carry a NT. Is it not by the law the wicked will be judged? The law of Christ sums up the OT laws but it does not abolish them all. There were theocratic laws that Israel had to follow in order to stand out from the other nations which of course are not applicable today; some are. Capitol punishment still stands, taxes still stand, the giving over of material possessions to provide the faulted one justice in some fashion…etc,etc. You cannot defend Christians defending people on the sole basis of, “well that was then…”

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. Furthermore, Jehovah foretold that those who serve him “in the final part of the days” would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4)

Well, YHWH also said a lot of prophetic words that pertain to later times, pending fulfillment. Once again we see the JW’s taking passages out of context to provide “proof texts” that speak of something entirely different from the premise presented. You said that “those who serve Him” will be doing the turning over of weapons into cultural means. Let’s see who actually is doing the changes…

Isaiah 2:2-4 (English Standard Version)

2It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the LORD
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be lifted up above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
3and many peoples shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go the law,[a]
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.

It appears it is the “NATIONS” and at a time when the law (which you say is null and void recently) go forth out of ZION…the Word of YHWH from Jerusalem. So what we actually see is a prophetic passage that has nothing to do with the present system of things that is still under the tyranny of sin and injustice.

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Is it to carry out the will of the Creator of all the earth or is it to further some nationalistic interest?

David, I think you misunderstand the will of God and the Sovereign decrees, purposes and plans of God that always are fulfilled. I will explain in detail later on in my post regarding the predestine purposes of YHWH/Yeshua.

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If true Christians in one nation were to go to war against another nation, they would be fighting against fellow believers, against people who prayed for help to the same God that they did. Appropriately, Christ directed his followers to lay down the sword. (Matt. 26:52) He himself, glorified in the heavens, would henceforth carry out the execution of those who showed defiance of the true God and His will.—2 Thess. 1:6-8; Rev. 19:11-21.

First you presume that all the “nations” contain believers. In the countries that do contain them, aside from American and Israel and possibly Canada or Mexico the believers would not join the military and fight for one who is a dictator and hater of God. Bush is a Christian and has no qualms admitting he follows Jesus Christ. We protect God’s chosen race of Israel. A true believer is not going to fight for a communist or atheist. The only defense you have shown is the Holocaust and that is sparse at best. You assume that there were no Evangelicals or Protestants who died for their faith.

Now, your misquote of Jesus (ONCE AGAIN!) is not taking in context of the passages surrounding it. If you were consistent in your defenses using the Scriptures you would have considered the WHOLE of Scripture and in this context, the WHOLE of Jesus’ statements. JW’s use Mathew 28 all the time in defending their proclamation but if you really were consistent then you would be carrying a sword. So again, you have no real tower to run to; just a mirage of deceitful images that vanish when walked up to.

Matthew 10:34

[ Not Peace, but a Sword ] /I]”Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Luke 22:38

And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”

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We have to remember that this was a sanctified warfare by means of which Jehovah, the Judge of all the earth, had demon-worshiping nations exterminated. The Canaanites, for example, were squatters in the Promised Land and followed a demonistic, immoral life-style that would endanger God’s holy people.

Once again you are taking the presumption that the wars “then” were validated and the modern wars are all secular and those believers who are involved in warfare are in rebellion but Scriptures make no such claim. As if Scripture is going to show wars in the light of YHWH’s Sovereignty and because there are no current revelations by God in regards to a prophet penning the Words of God down, the assumption is – therefore they are not of God.

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Or when king ahaseurus made the decree th at all the Jews were to die, was that God's will?

I have another document I worked on that I will post later when we get to this topic but taking the stance that the Jews were destined to die was not apart of God’s plan you see the creation frustrating the creator Who formed them.

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SCRIPTURES AGAINST WAR We must make a personal decision following our Bible-trained conscience. (Galatians 6:5) A Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17)

This passage is in reference to the believer and you again are skewed in your thinking that Christians are going to kill other Christians in war. I joined the USMC when I was 18 but due to our Father’s Sovereign will (over against my “free will” I might add) He kept me from becoming a full time Marine in the US Military. If I had however and gone to war such as the current crisis in the Middle East, you take an illogical conclusion I will murder a fellow brother in Christ. If you look at the battle we are engaged in, stemming from the outcome of 9/11, I cannot conceive how you take the position we are fighting or in this discussion, how I would be fighting fellow believers. The terrorist we are fighting are murderers defending a Satanic religion called Islam and they believe they are doing God’s will by murdering us, our Country and even as you can tell in the media – they are murdering their own people. Who will defend them and who needs to be removed from this Earth to prevent further innocent lives from being taken if not for the military?. We are fighting murderous monsters who have no qualm in calling their “jihad” war is against America, Iraq’s democracy, Israel and Christians who they see as one and the same.

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Does God take sides on football games? On any football game, there are people praying on both sides, are there not? So who does God cheer for?

Are you kidding me?

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SATAN IS RULER OF WORLD Satan offered him “authority” over “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth,” claiming that this authority had been delivered to him. Jesus rejected his offer, but he did not deny that such authority was Satan’s to give. Would this have been a “temptation” if they were not his to give?—Luke 4:5-8.

As I have stated before, in these verses you portray Satan having full authority hence Sovereignty over the Nations thereby removing God’s Sovereignty.

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CATHOLICS KILLING CATHOLICS–LOVE?

Well to begin with, you do not consider Catholics as Christians so how can you make this illustration truly? Just because a few people or group of people do something that is contrary to God’s Word, you cannot conclude that the whole of Christendom does. Just because you have the “Crusades” or the Spanish Inquisition in which you see murderers committing murders, you cannot conclude that true believers are participants. It is naïve to think that any true born again blood bought son of God would serve a leader who was evil and was bent on evil intents. Bush wished to free millions maybe billions under Sadaam’s rule. A kingdom that was built on the backs and blood of innocent lives. America is fighting Islamic fundamentalists whose literature and rhetoric in no other terms is spoken loudly by their adherents in words of malicious plots to bring the entire globe under Islamic rule – with the sword.

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Ignatius of Antioch (35-110 AD) Take heed, then, often to come together to give thanks to God, and show forth His praise. For when ye assemble frequently in the same place, the powers of Satan are destroyed, and the destruction at which he aims is prevented by the unity of your faith. Nothing is more precious than peace, by which all war, both in heaven and earth, is brought to an end. (110 A.D., The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter XIII)

We all long for peace and no one following God thinks this is coming in this age apart from the coming of Yeshua Messiah. Nothing is more precious than peace. Well spoken Ignatius.

This political-military discussion will be a long discussion I foresee. Let me surmise with some thoughts. If a man breaks into your home and is hell bent on not only robbing you but taking you and your family’s life, what would you do David? I am pretty sure the answer is obvious. What I don’t think you would do is allow the man to barge in and murder your family on the fear of murdering your brother in the faith. How is that different you will quite certainly show? Someone came in our house and murdered thousands of people who did them no harm. We went after them. This war I do not think will end – ever. But that does not make it ok to sit back and allow Satan’s minions to destroy people. Someone must defend them and I am sure those someone’s have not one inclination they are killing Christians. You show relentlessly World War II descriptions of people who bought into Hitler’s ideology who themselves claimed to be Christian. The murder is not on the side who is trying to save millions of innocent Jews lives from suffering a painful, torturous death…the murder lies into anyone who joined Hitler’s murderous plot and crusade to rid the earth of anyone who was not “Arian” in appearance or culture. You cannot throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. Not all war is justified and not all war is under the “god of this world’s system”, there is a time for war and a time for peace. You well illustrated the YHWH had the Israelites extinguish peoples from lands because their sins had reached the fullness and unto the heavens. You well spoke that this was YHWH’s mission. How can you defend your double standard in thinking today’s wars are not ordained of God for the removal of evil men like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam or Osama Bin Ladin?

[david]

HI t8.

You say:

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Pagans wear clothes, so what should we do?

We should of course, as the scripture says, be reasonable. Let's take something that is a little more blatently obvious.

Yes, pagans wear clothes. Clothes weren't invented by pagans. But they (let's call them “druids” did invent this thing where they put on animal heads and skins and fur and roamed the streets with lanterns, and on coming to a house, they demanded money as an offering for Satan. Back then, they didn't say trick or treat. But the sentiment was similar.

“It’s a religious holiday for the underworld, with satanists performing sacrifices and witches quietly celebrating with prayer circles or meals for the dead,” according to a USA Today article. It quoted Washington witch Bryan Jordan as saying, “[Christians] don’t realize it, but they’re celebrating our holiday with us. . . . We like it.”

That's my point. With Halloween, and Christmas, it's not that pagans happen to be celebrating along with Christians. It's a pagan holiday. With pagan roots. It is Christians who have adopted paganism and brought it into their homes and embraced it.

No, it's not wrong to wear clothes because pagans also wear clothes.

But MY QUESTIONS is:
Why would you want to adopt THEIR customs and put on the same clothes they did on the same day and do the same type things?

According to Natural History magazine, “instead of trying to obliterate peoples’ customs and beliefs, the pope’s [Gregory I] instructions were, use them. If a group of people worship a tree, rather than cut it down, consecrate it to Christ and allow them to continue their worship.”

This has been what “the church” has done over and over, with respect to paganism.

Did this policy of compromise have divine approval? Note God’s warning to his people poised to enter pagan Canaan:
“Watch out for yourself . . . for fear you may inquire respecting their gods, saying, ‘How was it these nations used to serve their gods? And I, yes, I, will do the same way.’ You must not do that way to Jehovah your God, for everything detestable to Jehovah that he does hate they have done to their gods.” (Deuteronomy 12:30, 31) The same warning is repeated in the Christian Greek Scriptures: : “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial [footnote, Satan]? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?”—2 Corinthians 6:14, 15.

What does God find so offensive about these false gods and the worship of them? Saturn was the Roman sun-god honored by the Saturnalia. Was he worthy? Simon Schama, professor of history at Harvard University, calls him “the orgiast of eating, drinking and other kinds of naughtiness.” Lear’s magazine calls the holiday “the most famous wine orgy in the ancient world.”

Cult worship of the sun-god Mithra spanned Asia. According to anthropologist Gabriel Seabrook, he was “a warrior god, who hurled life-destroying arrows and incurable diseases at his enemies on the battlefield.”

Sun worship among the Aztecs was particularly bloody. Natural History magazine explains that “unless victims were sacrificed to the sun gods, all life—including that of the gods—would die.”

Upon reviewing the origins of this celebration, it may perhaps come as no surprise to you that witches and Satan worshipers still revere December 25.

The San Francisco Chronicle of December 21, 1991, quotes a witch and popular pagan writer as saying:
“It is one of our more strenuous holidays. We stay up all night.” A member of the group Covenant of the Goddess stated: “We do a ritual enactment. . . . Members of our clergy perform a mystery play about the birth of the solar child.”

Will God or his Son accept such honor, which mirrors the worship of false gods?

When Jesus said those words about the importance of truth in worship, he added that “the Father is LOOKING for suchlike ones to worship him.”

“That is the kind of worshipper the Father wants.” (John 4:23, Jerusalem Bible)

Christmas perpetuates lies. We know this. Do we celebrate this?
What kind of worshippers is the Father looking for? One that perpetuates lies?

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Pagans have December 25 as a holiday, what are we to do?

Um… Not imitate them maybe. Maybe not copy them and their actions and customs and traditions, maybe.

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It belongs to the LORD. December 25 is the LORD's and it pleases him when people honour him on that day or any day.

I don't really understand this line of reasoning. I'm not saying that everything that happens on one day is bad. The day itself, being a day, isn't bad. But that day is and has been associated with worship of false gods for thousands of years. Why take that specific day and imitate the customs of false god worshippers on that same day? To someone who's not paying attention, it might look like you are one of them, worshipping the sun god, the god of light, with all those lights in your house, on THAT day, just as was done thousands of years ago, and still today.

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david, you look to the physical, but cannot see beyond that.

I see that God loves truth. I see that Christmas represents lies.

I see that God hates false gods. I see that Christmas originated in the worship of false gods.

I see that God hates what those pagans did.
I see people copying those customs today.

I see that God may look on Christmas customs in a very negative way.
I see that God is all that matters and any fun we may have on that day isn't worth upsetting God.
Is that not a spirtual way to see?

Closing your eyes to certain truths and saying you have all the freedom in the world because your conscience allows lies and paganism in your worship does not make one spiritual.
Always, in every step, concerning yourself with what GOD WANTS I think is a better indication of spirituallity.

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As a Christian, I am free to make any day of the year holy, I am free to make all days holy (inc Dec 25). This is my right as a believer. Neither you nor your denomination can change the truth and the liberty I have in Christ.

“holy” is a fancy word for “clean” t8. Can you touch paganism and make it clean? If you go up to a satanist and touch him, is he clean?
Doesn't it seem that embracing paganism doesn't make anything holy, but rather defiles, and taints true worship.
And no one is arguing that you can do spiritual things on any day. But Jesus wasn't born on that day. So, why wake up that morning and help the lie that he was?
The world has it's ruler–Satan.
Christians are to be separate from the world, separate from it's
ways. “No part of the world.”

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The Pharisees condemned Jesus for saving people on the Sabbath and sure they could argue their point of view in a physical sense. You and the JWs condemn those who celebrate around the Christmas period. You can argue this in the physical too.

No. I've never said it's wrong to “celebrate” on any day. I've been trying to question whether it's wrong to celebrate with the pagans and the world on the day of the pagans in the way the pagans do.

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But you ignore the greater freedom we have in Christ. It is actually lawful for Christians to honour God on December 25, scripture clearly teaches this. It is actually the Devil who doesn't want us to honour God on that day or any day.

You keep arguing something I don't disagree with, so let me say this in bold:
Of course it's lawful and good and commendable to honour God on December 25, and every day, obviously.
I have never said not to “honour” God on this day, or any other. What I am saying is that it seems a great dishonour to present that day covered in lies and severd on a plate of paganism. God doens't look with favor on these things, does He? It does not honour Christ to celebrate his birth the way the world does.

david.

[david]

Satan the Devil has misled millions into following his teachings rather than God’s. (2 Corinthians 11:14)
The apostle John showed that Satan’s influence is so extensive that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19)
John knew that Satan was “misleading the entire inhabited earth.”—Revelation 12:9.

What have been the consequences of this? Satan has promoted religious systems that on the surface appear to be holy, or clean, but beneath the surface, their roots are unclean. The origins of Christmas are easy to check in most encyclopedias.

Remember, the very nature of deception is that the one being deceived is unaware of it. The apostle Paul gave an example of this when he wrote: “The things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God.” (1 Corinthians 10:20)
Those people would likely have been shocked to think that they were worshiping demons.

They thought that they were worshiping a good god, or gods, of some kind. Yet, in reality they had been deceived by “wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” who support Satan in his efforts to mislead mankind.—Ephesians 6:12.

“Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light,” we are told.
Thus we can expect that his schemes for misleading people would often appear innocent, even beneficial.
Christmas may have transformed the pagan rituals and celebrations into the “Christian” Christmas, and that does make it look better, like something good even.

Some may try to limit the one Jesus himself three times calls the “ruler of this world,” but as shown, we must put up a hard fight, because of this one:
“Put on the complete suit of armor from God . . . because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against . . . the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.” (Eph. 6:11, 12)

Revelation 12:9 refers to “the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth.” Additionally, 1 John 5:19 says: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures he is called “the god of this system of things.” (2 Cor. 4:4) These references should make it quite clear to us that from the viewpoint of the Creator the vast majority of mankind are under the influence and control of the Devil, and have been mislead by him.

What better way to catch people into doing wrong, than to make it “fun.” To make the world celebrate in that fun. To give it a clean appearance, when really it is from wholy unclean sources.

dave

[david]

If a God of order intended to have Christians celebrate the birth of his Son on the earth, would He leave it to imperfect men to choose arbitrarily a date from pagan festivals and to adopt ungodly practices?

Examining a few Biblical examples clarifies that Jehovah God does not deal with his people in that way.
When he required the Israelites to keep annual celebrations under the Mosaic Law, God designated specific dates and told them how to observe those festive occasions. (Exodus 23:14-17; Leviticus 23:34-43)
Jesus Christ, although never commanding his birth to be commemorated, did command his followers to observe one specific date. “In the night in which he was going to be handed over,” Nisan 14, 33 C.E., Jesus initiated the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, using unleavened bread and wine. He commanded: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (1 Corinthians 11:23, 24)

“Oh, of course, I know Christmas is of pagan origin” many say, “but as long as ordinary people are interested in Christianity on december 25 and come to learn the teachings of Jesus, Christmas has it's place.”

Many agree with his reasoning. Do you believe that making such compromises is proper?

Notice this command:
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? . . . Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’” (2 Corinthians 6:14-17)

No matter what excuses may be offered, adulterating Christianity with pagan festivals is no way to welcome Jesus as a Savior. It would have been inappropriate in the first century when Jesus came in the flesh, and it is just as inappropriate today or in the future, when Christ comes as King to execute God’s judgments. (Revelation 19:11-16) In fact, those who prefer to celebrate pagan festivals behind a “Christian” disguise may well be denying Jesus Christ.

Take a lesson from what happened to Catholics in Japan during the shogun era. When suppression of Catholicism began in 1614, some 300,000 Japanese Catholics had three choices: become martyrs, abandon their faith, or go underground. The ones who went underground were called hidden Christians. To camouflage their faith, they conformed to various Buddhist and Shinto customs. In their liturgy, they used Maria Kannon, which was Mary disguised as a Buddhist bodhisattva in the form of a mother holding a child. Their festivals mixed Buddhism, Catholicism, and folk religion. However, when forced to attend Buddhist funerals, they chanted Christian prayers and performed modoshi, a ceremony to nullify the Buddhist service. What has become of those “Christians”?

“As far as the majority of the Kirishitans [Christians] were concerned,” explains the book The Hidden Christians, “a religious attachment grew in them making it difficult to abandon the worship of Shinto and Buddhist gods.” When the ban was lifted and Catholic missionaries returned to Japan, the majority of those “hidden Christians” clung to their type of fusion religion.

However, could the Catholic Church reasonably criticize those “hidden Christians” who refused to be restored to Roman Catholicism? The Catholic Church has likewise adopted many pagan teachings and festivals, including Christmas. If Catholics and Protestants, though professing to be Christians, have paganized their “Christianity” with heathen festivals, could they not also be rejecting Jesus Christ?

If you sincerely believe in Christ, do not be annoyed when you see pagans polluting Christmas. They are only reiterating what it originally was—a pagan festival.

“I have never been able to reconcile myself to the gaieties of the Christmas season. They have appeared to me to be so inconsistent with the life and teaching of Jesus.”—Mohandas K. Gandhi.

And if by “gaieties” Gandhi meant the secular side of modern-day Christmas, the frenzied consumerism that we all observe, it is hard to deny that this aspect of the celebration is often the most prominent. Asiaweek magazine notes: “Christmas in Asia—from the festive lights in Hong Kong to towering hotel Yuletide trees in Beijing to a creche in downtown Singapore—is largely a secular (mainly retail) event.”

I believe something like 30% of the money made in retail is made in the Christmas season. How the traveling merchants will weap over babylon the great when she falls. It will be a great loss for her.

According to a recent poll taken in the United States, only 33 percent of those polled felt that the birth of Christ is the most important aspect of Christmas.

What do you think? Do you at times feel that in all the insistent advertising, the harried buying of presents, the decorating of trees, the organizing and attending of parties, the sending of cards—Jesus has somehow been left out of the picture?

Many seem to feel that one way to put Christ back into Christmas is by displaying a Nativity scene.

Likely you have seen such groupings of figurines, representing the baby Jesus in a manger surrounded by Mary, Joseph, some shepherds, “three wise men,” or “three kings,” some barnyard animals, and some onlookers.

It must be admitted that quaintly painted little sculptures lend an aura of legend or fairy tale to the birth of Christ. And when we realize that the nativity scene is all messed up and not consistent at all with what the scriptures actually say, it becomes obvious that what appears to be the only part of Christmas that has anything to do with Jesus is a mess of lies.

If you take a few moments to research this subject, you will find that Christmas has no roots in true Christianity. Many Bible scholars of various religious denominations acknowledge this. With that in mind, it should not surprise you that in England, Cromwell’s Parliament decreed in 1647 that Christmas be a day of penance and then banned it outright in 1652.

Between the years 1659 and 1681, Christmas was banned in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. According to the law enacted then, Christmas was not to be observed in any form or fashion. Violators were subject to a fine. Not only were Puritans in New England uncomfortable with celebrating Christmas but some groups in the middle colonies were also. Pennsylvania Quakers were as adamant as the Puritans in their view of the celebration. One source says that “shortly after Americans had won their independence, Elizabeth Drinker, a Quaker herself, divided Philadelphians into three categories. There were Quakers, who ‘make no more account of it [Christmas] than another day,’ those who were religious, and the rest who ‘spend it in riot and dissipation.’”

Henry Ward Beecher, a renowned American preacher who was raised in an orthodox Calvinist household, knew little about Christmas until he was 30 years old. “To me Christmas was a foreign day,” wrote Beecher in 1874.

The early Baptist and Congregationalist churches also found no Scriptural grounds for celebrating Christ’s birth. One source notes that it was not until December 25, 1772, that the Baptist Church of Newport [Rhode Island] observed Christmas for the first time. This was approximately 130 years after the founding of the first Baptist church in New England.

Is it pleasing to God to fuse his worship with the religious beliefs and practices of those who do not worship him? The apostle Paul warned at Colossians 2:8:
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.”

[david]

JAMES 1:27
“The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”

The Father is looking for worship that is

“clean”

“undefiled”

As Jesus followers who are to be as he was “no part of the world,” we should keep ourselves without spot from the world.

JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”

[Oxy]

I would like to post this challenge to any Jehovah's Witness.

Have you been Born Again? Because without being Born Again you cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Have you heard the Lord's voice? Because Scripture says John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Have you received the Holy Spirit? Because Scripture says Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth (that's Jesus), the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Have you been sealed?

[david]

If Jesus returned to the earth today, what would he think about the rank commercialism of Christmas? Two thousand years ago, Jesus visited the temple in Jerusalem.

JESUS was outraged by money changers and vendors who were taking advantage of a Jewish religious festival to make money.

“Take these things away from here!” he said.
“Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!” (John 2:13-16)

“[Christmas] is a world festival, of a family nature, and everyone celebrates what he or she sees in it,” observes the Spanish newspaper El País.

While Christmas celebrations become ever more extravagant, knowledge of Christ diminishes. In essence, Christmas festivities have largely reverted to what they originally were in Roman times—revelry, feasting, and the exchanging of presents.

Early Christians resisted the temptation to join in the pagan festivities of their neighbors. But the Bible foretold that, in time, a great apostasy would develop among Christians (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Peter 2:1, 2)

As the book Christmas admits: “The Christian Church . . . in the 4th century found it convenient to take over the sacred pagan day of December 25, the winter solstice . . . The birthday of the sun became the birthday of the Son of God.”

[/B]CHILDREN ALL OVER THE WOLRD can't help but wonder:
If Santa told as truth is a lie, then maybe God told as truth also is a lie.

[david]

Pagan rites and superstitious legends—such are the sources of the Christmas tradition. They were shunned by the early Christians, who, according to “the World Book Encyclopedia,” “did not celebrate His birth because they considered celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”

This package of rituals and superstitions called Christmas is but another by-product of the famous dictum of Pope Gregory I to the missionary Augustine: “Tear down their idols but consecrate their temples.” Only the labels have been changed. The contents are as pagan as ever.

[david]

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JESUS was outraged by money changers and vendors who were taking advantage of a Jewish religious festival to make money. “Take these things away from here!” he said. “Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!” (John 2:13-16)

Looking at Jesus outrage and his words, what can we determine about the Christmas spirit?
Would he not tell many to stop making his birth (or rather his supposed birth) a day of commercialism?

[Oxy]

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 19 2006,06:24)

I would like to post this challenge to any Jehovah's Witness. Have you been Born Again?  Because without being Born Again you cannot see the Kingdom of God. Have you heard the Lord's voice?  Because Scripture says John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Have you received the Holy Spirit? Because Scripture says Eph 1:13  in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth (that's Jesus), the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Have you been sealed?

Looks like you're on a role david and for the most part I agree with you. There's not much about Christmas that has anything to do with Jesus, unless you love Jesus and choose that time to remember His birth and take the opportunity to remind others of why we have Christmas.

That aside, could you answer my challenge as in the quote above?

[david]

Hi oxy. I believe I have discussed this at length in the “kingdom of God” thread and in one of the other JW threads.

I was reading Revelation earlier and came across this verse:

REVELATION 22:15
“Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and EVERYONE LIKING AND CARRYING ON A LIE.”

When people perpetuate the Christmas myths, that Dec 25th is Christ's birth, that santa knows when you are sleeping and knows when you're awake, that the magi were ever in the same scene as the shephards, etc, are they not carrying on a lie?
These are popular lies. They are well liked, comforting lies that many like to be told each year. But what does the Bible say about “everyone” who does such things?

[Casey S Smith 29]

Oxy give it up on David. Like all witnesses he only views the world through his cult leader’s premise and all other view and opinions are filtered through that perspective.

You will hear how they “only” believe according to Scripture but upon further investigating you will see that like all cults and some denominations, they take a passage and cut it out of the Bible and then use it as a “proof text” to defend their ideology. You will find much of this if you read just briefly through their literature.

I have completed an extensive research and studying this sect laying down my own bias and presuppositions I held against the witnesses. Most were already correct to the “T”, others were correct but needed clarity and reaffirmed the truth already out there from witnesses themselves and their rhetoric. I found some wrong or misunderstood that I now can understand why they hold that particular tenant.

Once you conclude they are in error and not matter how much time you spent doing research, speaking with them one on one and two on two, reading their on websites support…etc,etc you will be called a liar, a traitor, being deceitful, having false motives and I could go on and on. If you are not foolish and see through their tactics they will not talk to you anymore because you are just bent on portraying them inaccurately so you can continue your “mission” on trying to destroy them and lying to possible candidates leading them astray in your folly.

Regardless though, if you know Scripture well enough, you can skim through their books, magazines, tracts and pamphlets and detect very clearly where they twisted the text or just flat out contradicted it adhering to their traditions that have been passed along for over a century at the expense of clear Biblical doctrine.

Normally they will say you are given people half truths or lies that fit your attempt to continue in your “mission”. Most of the time will they will not defend themselves when one like myself will present these traditions that are heretical to them and other possible future slaves (they don't pay their workers but muzzle the oxen to build their empire). The reason is they have not defense. You can take exact quotes verbatim and they will say you are lying. It is beyond me to understand it all.

If you scroll back a few posts back you will see what I am talking about. I will take some examples and give them for you though:

Quote

The message JW's bring from house to house is following the Watchtower's requirements; requirements that are necessary to not make one a candidate for any “kingdom” of God but a “kingdom” HALL. These requirements are briefly though not extensively or exhaustively given below: The forbiddance of birthday's including Christ's Decorations Candles Trees Cake Songs…any participation including to by not limited by these few examples are pagan therefore sin. The forbiddance of any celebration of any holiday All holidays are pagan. Any decoration or greeting of any such holiday is seen as participation and therefore – sin. The forbiddance of reading any other literature on theological matters regarding YHWH will be seen as falling away from the narrow road of true witnesses of YHWH. 144,000 are the only ones that are anointed and therefore are the only ones reigning with Christ You may not participate at the Lord's Supper or Eucharist but must be present All other Biblical translations are stemmed from pagan roots of Trinitarian schemes and are therefore not the final say but must be read in accordance with the NWT in order to find the most accurate rendering. Our NWT places words that were not in the original like [other] when referring to Christ's creating all things to help misinformed readers who would otherwise misunderstand the text. Jehovah is also placed in the NT though when it is seen in reference to Christ “lord” is transliterated. 1 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 are correctly translated in this translation. John 1:1 forces the predicate into the text ungrammatically so no one would inappropriately read that the Word was God also. Baptism is only for the obedient and worthy people who are to be called under the name of a witness of Jehovah Only when you have been reviewed by the elders that you have produced fruit worthy of baptism. Previous baptisms done under any other name than the JW is not accepted regardless of motive or intention within at the time of the previous baptism ceremony. Baptism “truly” within the Kingdom Halls do not lie at the door of following Yeshua/YHWH. In actuality if one who wishes to become a JW and investigates the final outcome of their adherence to baptism within the witnesses that one would be astonished to find that they are not being baptized according to the Biblical standards and examples given therein but are being baptized into a denomination. If someone believes for the “most” part of the “kingdom message” and they believe they would be apart of this “kingdom” and wish to be baptized, they would have to follow all the rules of the Watchtower or they will be found unworthy of the kingdom since they did not choose to be a JW Any giving of blood or receiving of blood for life saving purposes is a sin JW's do not participate in sports that could risk their life Skydiving?…it was astonishing when I read this in their literature. I guess that would leave out: Surfing Football Roller coasters or amusement parks Rock climbing Parasailing or Ultra light flyers Hang-gliding God is Sovereign but man's free will along with the “god of this world” frustrated and thwarted God's INTENDED purpose You will never actually be judged for your sins. If you are found unworthy of the resurrection God will just keep you sleeping forever There is actually no place called heaven that anyone goes to You must not say the pledge of allegiance to any flag You must not join any armed force or be active in any military purposes WWII proves we were the only true believers. All killing is murder I true follower of Jehovah goes door to door faithfully If one does not do so and it is seen that they seldom if ever do, it will be suspicious in the elders eyes. The encouragement would be given but eventually admonishment would be needed. The person named Jesus Christ was previously Michael the Archangel Jesus Christ was the son of God and was created some time ago You may not believe in the Father Son and Holy Spirit as being One God References to the Holy Spirit for clairity should be portrayed as a verb showing what “it” does and not what “it” is So when referring to Scripture “active force” is more appropriate than Holy Spirit. Removing the predicate “the” helps clear things up and also typing or writing this force in small caps is also helpful. The Holy Spirit must NEVER be used with pronouns but be kept with the neuter even when the pronoun is actually what is in the text; again, we are keeping the Scripture from looking like it contradicts it self …when actually it never does but when one verse is taking as sin qua non then the rest of the text must line up with a presupposed belief Initially there are two main groups: 1)144,000 in heaven 2) The rest of us …but then there is a third group – the resurrected unrighteous who get a second chance …then there is a fourth group the wicked who will be judged by sleeping forever … only we haven't worked out the fifth yet. The Jews whom God will graft back into the original vine when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in Jesus died on a stake – rendered “torture” stake The cross was never used by the early Church as a symbol for Christians …though they were God causes no suffering whatsoever. All suffering is from the devil or from our sinful choices. Christ did come already but we didn't see it. He came invisibly a century ago 1914 – memorize it – defend it – purport it – speak it – proclaim it- if you have to, YELL it! This is the year that started the time clock. Though we are told the day and hour are unknown, we have figured it out and concluded this is the year of Christ's second coming. Christ's second coming is past tense and we are just waiting idly with our hands folded, watching Satan's world blow itself up and allowing murderers to go free so we can “all just get along” and be passive – peaceful people. If you read all of our material you will clearly see Jehovah wants us happy – not holy Although Scripture through Paul reveals that you don't muzzle the ox as it treads showing that Paul (and us) have full right to receive wages for the gospel's sake and for the continuous, purpose of allowing one to spend their life concentrating on the teaching and edifying of the congregation, we do not pay Watchtower servants You must never worship Yeshua You must never praise Yeshua These are just a few of the many rules, regulations, stipulations, guidelines, commandments, laws, decrees, edicts, charges, demands and conduct one HAS TO FOLLOW in order to serve and please God in the end with the “possibility” of living forever. You are never guaranteed salvation even though 1 John writes that his reason for writing is that the believers be sure to know they are saved.

That is a pretty good summary of what I have discovered but again, your average truly born again believer will see through the reverse – psychological deceit that so many uninformed people are duped in unaware – most, when it is too late and their roots are so far entrenched in this heresy that if it weren't for the elects sake by the Holy Spirit, they will surely perish.

If you notice, the past billion posts from David are about Christmas. You will see that I deemed it prudent at that time that David and I agree to disagree. He had no qualms with my decision and we were going to move forward (him and I not the rest) in military or Adam and Eve (I posted some of my document on here recently if you scroll back). Christmas is about conscience but not for David; for David it is eternal destiny.

Let me give you a little of what I see and how I have watched David perform his “magic” in taking people, making them think about things that are futile so most here do not wish to in delve that deep into…and then suck you in talking about things that have no bearing on salvation.

At best they are discussions that some will find interesting and have more information on things they never thought about. For instance, most here have not studied the beginnings of birthday celebrations. Why? Because it makes no logical sense to in regards to theology. What does this day in celebrating a day that that individual gives thanks to God for giving him or her another year in the land of the living have to do with salvation? Not a thing of course. If a student is typing a term paper then the studying of such a topic would be needed. But this topic from David and the JW's is about salvation.

The irony is he can give you facts…

(I have not checked out his “facts” from these supposed Encyclopedias or dictionaries though; I questioned him on one and he admitted he didn't exactly remember the volume though he posted a volume that made one think it was indeed that volume though he admitted he really wasn't sure but was sure it was one of those volumes. So what exactly did her read? Did he see something that looked like something it wasn't? Did he take the quote out of context? I would not be dumbfounded if not. It is a Watchtower's way of being unfair in making everyone seem who isn't a JW as an enemy)

…on birthdays and some holidays but he questions not his own Watchtower's beginnings. Why? Well I think for the most part the same reason all witnesses don't… (the ones that do, normally are in shock and in disbelief. As soon as it is brought to their “elders” they will be “disfellowshipped” and treated as an outcast – heretic)…

…they are forbidden to

…they are told that all our information that is without reproach at times, is all propaganda in attempts to make them look bad

…you will find incalculatable reasons that witnesses give to know investigate their origins and founder himself. The Watchtower will never portray Russell or Rutherford in a negative light. Like the old sands in time of Egypt in which the only thing ever documented was in favor of Egyptian Pharaohs and the only war events were historically lied about so that Egypt was NEVER in the wrong and never lost a war…touché with the Watchtower.

You will strain at a needle in a haystack in vain in hopes of finding Watchtower literature admitting the numerous lies, betrayals and flat out twisted thinking their founders had and even still use. I have seen hard copy material from the “Bible Students” and Watchtower magazines showing things in print that your modern day witnesses have either discarded at the hopes of people “finding” them out, or dismiss outright as an altered document. I have yet to meet a witness willing to view this evidence for obvious reasons.

Normally if a witness decides to study in risk of losing their fellowship, they always end up leaving. I have never met a witness who took the risk and saw the evidence that then went back or stayed. Sometimes even against their own decision (even in the process of researching) are they are removed from the “congregation”. When they are removed when they do not wish to since they as of that time had not decided or had time to look into it deeper, the true colors of the kingdom halls abroad are revealed and that little push that was needed to help them see the Watchtower as it truly is, is ample enough for the eradicating of the JW's for the remaining years God gives.

Now, once the evidence is presented the cults ALWAYS have an explanation. You will find that to be the norm in most, like the Mormons. You would think that if you are involved in a group that is always in the spotlight and shown to be in error that its members would catch a hint and go, “why does everyone believe this? Why does my denomination teach me how to have an answer for everything?” but they don't.

The explanation is:

…well of course they are going to have these documents. They are in a religion of the devil. They are not in the truth. Why are you surprised they have all this propaganda?

…once that has been established and the ignorant one who was fooled into this hogwash stops reading apologetics defending the TRUE FAITH, they will in turn never read another statement proving they are in a cult, hence the sad fact of never entering the REAL Kingdom of God but hanging on by a thin thread using works so they will make it into and remain in the “kingdom” HALL. Of course all its followers are carefully watched and scrutinized.

Well Oxy, that is a brief analysis of the futility in asking if David is born again. He will tell you that not everyone has to be…that only 144,000 are. He will not have an answer of how the person who is considered one of the “anointed” actually became born again. All you will get is an endless maze of arguments (in vain albeit) trying to dethrone Orthodox Apostolic doctrine from Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, Matthew, Mark, John, the author of Hebrews (that they incorrectly assume it was Paul).

Arguments for anti-holiday vilification…blood transfusions…arianism…kingdom hall attendance…door to door preaching (that is in the free democratic
countries like America where they enjoy the freedom to go door to door but will not fight for those countries. Hmmmm, I wonder how they go “door to door” in Islamic countries? Bet you won't find too many JW's going to any doors in Iran; where the salvation is needed though all they are concerned about is proselyte ignorant people into joining an organization)…144,000 people in their unbiblical incorrect heaven…a “paradise”…

(they will throw around the silly statement, “the word Trinity is not in the Bible” and then they use words that are not found in Scripture like this. There is no supposed “paradise” word or implication used in Scripture) where in their literature you will find comical cartoons of people eating apples, playing the violin and skipping in the field; more like something out of a Disney movie than God’s future restoration of things. What is more strange is how they view crosses and statues as idols but then draw Jesus all the time as a brown haired, brown eyed hippie who looks like your average Caucasian man with long hair and a beard – just another example of the hypocrisy and double standards being used time and time and time and time and time again from this cult!)

…1914…the “spirit” body of Jesus who was no longer “materialized” (another word you will hear used frequently of the witnesses)…the “god” of this age…the list is almost endless.

Once the JW’s have successfully indoctrinated their traditions built on heresies within their “recruits” they then brain wash them taking them step by step slowly but surely one topic at a time. Each topic given an extensive study of course using few verses taken out of context not using correct hermeneutical rules, and then the Bible studies at the “theocracy” meetings are studied almost in totality of the Watchtower literature. Once the Watchtower has been given preeminence laying the standard and foundation of what is right and wrong to believe then nothing is without question.

[Oxy]

thanks lol

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I think people are basically insecure. I remeber feeling very smug when I was young and catholic. We had the biggest and oldest church in the world and the church played a significant role in our lives, at least every week and when I wanted to I could prove my loyalty to God by being even more involved in retreats and missions, daily mass and other added extras. When I got involved in the traditionalist movement I got very anxious and determined to improve my chances by getting up during the night to pray the rosary etc.
But God got through to me that I was in control and not Him, and I was relying on my own works being unaware of the meaning of salvation in Christ. I was trying to save myself assuming that the more I did the more I would impress God, as catholicism's ritualism encourages such thinking.
I am not surprised that the JWs attract a lot of catholics. They have been spoonfed since birth by strong authority figures who are confident in their ability to lead men to safety. All initiative is suppressed as evidence of ignorance and rebellion.
The lack of biblical knowledge and ignorance about how it should be understood leaves them wide open to deception. The past warm experience of human cultural fellowship and need for someone to follow makes them easy targets. They are given tasks and organised and kept busy so there is a similar ethos that deceives to save.

[david]

I found the following in a news article dated Nov 20,2006. The news article was on Walmart and how they greet their customers.

Wiccan High Priestess Selena Fox stated:

“Yule, the winter solstice, is a festival of peace and a celebration of waxing solar light. I honor the new sun child by burning a[n] oaken yule log in a sacred fire. I honor the great goddess in her many great mother aspects, and the father god as Santa in his old sky god, father time, and holly king forms. I decorate my home with lights and with holly, ivy, mistletoe, evergreens and other herbs sacred to this season. I ring in the new solar year with bells.”––Wiccan High Priestess Selena Fox
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47345

Sound familiar?
Isn’t it at least a little disurbing that pagans today are celebrating the birth of the sun god in the same way that the world (ruled by Satan) celebrates Christmas today?
It’s always been a pagan holiday. That’s it’s orgins. That’s it’s history. And Dec 25 is the date of it all.
Do true Christians join the pagans in what they do?
Do we make our customs look like theirs?
Or do we rather, follow the Biblical admonition:

2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-18
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’” “‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.””

(Also, see the Hebrew scriptures which repeatedly speaks of separating yourself from paganism.)

The same website stated:
“Fox even provides a list of suggestions on how 21st century citizens can take part in the ancient rituals, to “re-paganize” Christmastime:
* Have gift exchanges and feasts over the course of several days and nights as was done of old
* Adorn the home with sacred herbs and colors; decorate in druidic holiday colors of red, green and white
* Hang a sprig of mistletoe above a major threshold and leave it there until next yule as a charm for good luck throughout the year
* Have family/household members join together to make or purchase an evergreen wreath
* If you choose to have a living or a harvested evergreen tree as part of your holiday decorations, call it a solstice tree and decorate it with pagan symbols
* Reclaim Santa Claus as a pagan godform by decorating him with images that reflect his various heritages ranging from the Greek god Cronos (father time) to Odin, the Scandinavian all-father riding the sky on an eight-legged horse
* Place pagan mother-goddess images around your home, possibly including one with a sun child, such as Isis with Horus
* Honor the new solar year with light – light candles, burn a yule log and save a portion for the following year, put colored lights outside your home, and with the popularity of five-pointed stars, consider displaying a blue or white pentagram.”

Before in this thread, I quoted Washington witch Bryan Jordan: “[Christians] don’t realize it, but they’re celebrating our holiday with us. . . . We like it.”–USA Today article

[david]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
“Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the “birthdays” of the gods.”

Is Christmas Jesus birthday, or is it a sun god’s birthday?

Do pagans celebrate Jesus birthday or do so called Christians celebrate paganism?
One of them has to be correct. The question is, which one.

[Author]

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