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David: As to whom we are to rule and reign over as kings and priests the position held by premillenialist is that those who survive the tribulation period will be given the extent of living with Christ on Earth and we will be reigning over them in the New Jerusalem. As to priests we are alike with Christ in the priesthood of intersession and bridging the gap for all people as Yeshua is the Great High Priest. As to kings the same is true. I will respond to your other inquiries later.
Quote What I was saying, and do believe, is that I can know that I'm saved but if your doctrine was true I couldn't be Hi seekingtruth.
MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”Discounting you and speaking generally, there are “many” who truly believe with all their heart that they are saved. And yet, they aren't. They may even have “powerful works” behind them. All I'm saying is that you “know” you are saved. A lot of people “know” they are saved, but are clearly not.
Quote What I was saying, and do believe, is that I can know that I'm saved but if your doctrine was true I couldn't be, this indicates an error in the basic doctrine that for me, at least, is indisputable (because I do know my standing with God). LUKE 22:34
“But he said: “I tell you, Peter, A #### will not crow today until you have three times denied knowing me.””1 CORINTHIANS 10:12
“Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.”We should not be overconfident of our position. Anything God gives us is only because of his undeserved kindness. He owes us nothing. I'm not saying those who are annointed aren't absolutely certain they are. I'm saying that lots who think they are certain are not.
Quote Individual Christians from many denominations have suffered persecution (any who stand for righteousness will) and I agree that the JW's as a whole do more suffering as a group but my concern was is some of it “self inflicted”?
I see what you are saying. We have come to expect it. But Christ fortold that his diciples would be persecuted. And Paul wrote that everyone desiring to live with godly devotion would be persecuted. So it is rightly expected. We expect it because Christ said it.Quote I have had very limited exposure to JW's beyond you, but the few I have had contact with the cross and birthdays were the big with them (I still do not know what is the problem with birthdays?)
Have you ever wondered why we bring out a cake (traditionally round) and why it had candles on it? Doesn't that seem a little weird to you? Almost as weird at bringing a tree into your home in December. But no one questions these things because they are tradition. But they may just be tradition that is based in a bad place. If you look in the Bible, which is “inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for setting things straight,” (2 tim) you'll see that there are only two accounts of birthdays. Both were for people who didn't represent God. Both invovled executions. It seems the Bible portrays birthdays in a bad light. If you look through histroy, you'll find that certain rulers celebrated their birthdays by putting many to death. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to celelbrate our birth. The early Christians didn't celelbrate Christ's birth and it wasn't just that they forgot to. They actively chose not to. They knew the origins of such things. It has to do with magic (sympathetic magick) I believe and protection from demons, etc. The birthday greetings and birthday wish are all meant to protect the birthday celebrant. Wait. I used to have a rather large file on this. I'll try to find some stuff.The only two birthdays the Bible does mention were for rulers who were enemies of God. Each celebration included an execution, so that the guests could gloat over the death of one who had displeased the king. In the first instance, Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, executed his chief baker. (Genesis 40:2, 3, 20, 22) The Egyptian ruler did so during the feast because he had grown indignant with his servant. In the second instance, Herod, the immoral ruler of Galilee, beheaded John the Baptizer as a favor to a girl whose dancing at the party had pleased him. What repulsive scenes!—Matthew 14:6-11.
Yet has not the Bible focused on two very exceptional birthdays? Not really. The ancient Jewish historian Josephus reveals that these incidents were not unique. He records other instances of the practice of birthday executions for entertainment.
For example, some occurred after Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 C.E., when 1,000,000 Jews perished and 97,000 survived to be taken prisoner. En route to Rome, Roman general Titus took his Jewish captives to the nearby seaport of Caesarea.
Josephus writes: “While Titus remained at Caesarea, he celebrated his brother Domitian’s birthday with great splendor, putting over 2,500 prisoners to death in games with beasts and flames. After this he moved to Berytus [Beirut], a Roman colony in Phoenicia, where he celebrated his father’s birthday by killing many more captives at elaborate exhibitions.”—The Jewish War, VII, 37, translated by Paul L. Maier in Josephus: The Essential Writings.
It is no wonder that The Imperial Bible-Dictionary comments: “The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”
Faithful first-century Christians would not have felt like joining in a custom so darkly presented in the Bible and so gruesomely celebrated by the Romans. Today, sincere Christians realize that the Bible accounts about birthdays were among the things written for their instruction. (Romans 15:4) They avoid celebrating birthdays because such observances bestow undue importance on the individual. More significant, Jehovah’s servants wisely take into account the unfavorable presentation of birthdays in the Bible.–w 94 7/15, page 25
“The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.
“The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225.
“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
“The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. . . . Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . Originally the idea was rooted in magic. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.”—The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp. 8, 18-20.
I know most people don't know these things so it's regarded as an innocent custom. But God knows where these things come from. And it is Him alone that matters.
If one were to say: “I don't care where it came from or what history it has, or how the Bible paints birthdays,” it seems to me like they would be disregarding how God feels.I think the early Christians had it right. I think the people who claimed to be Christians that came later had it wrong. I would tend to go with the early Christians.
Hope this helps.
david
Quote David: As to whom we are to rule and reign over as kings and priests the position held by premillenialist is that those who survive the tribulation period will be given the extent of living with Christ on Earth and we will be reigning over them in the New Jerusalem. As to priests we are alike with Christ in the priesthood of intersession and bridging the gap for all people as Yeshua is the Great High Priest. As to kings the same is true. I will respond to your other inquiries later.
Hi Casey.“those who survive the tribulation period will be given the extent of living with Christ on Earth and we will be reigning over them in the New Jerusalem.”
Who is the “them” that those who survive the tribulation will be ruling over?
Could you please clarify or expand on this.david
Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2006,00:19) Quote David: As to whom we are to rule and reign over as kings and priests the position held by premillenialist is that those who survive the tribulation period will be given the extent of living with Christ on Earth and we will be reigning over them in the New Jerusalem. As to priests we are alike with Christ in the priesthood of intersession and bridging the gap for all people as Yeshua is the Great High Priest. As to kings the same is true. I will respond to your other inquiries later.
Hi Casey.“those who survive the tribulation period will be given the extent of living with Christ on Earth and we will be reigning over them in the New Jerusalem.”
Who is the “them” that those who survive the tribulation will be ruling over?
Could you please clarify or expand on this.david
Hi david,
Zech 12 may help.Zechariah 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.”
So not all die before the return of the King, who then sets out to rule the earth from Jerusalem.
Hi David:
When God created Adam, He placed him in the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:8) “And out of ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and tree of knowledge of good and evil”. (Genesis 2:9) “And the Lord God commanded man, saying 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: FOR IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THOU SHALT SURELY DIE'”. (Gen. 2:17)
In Genesis 3 we know that Adam and Eve disobeyed God's Commandment and, therefore, brought upon themselves the judgment that God said would happen if they disobeyed. Death involved spiritual separation from God and also physical death.
Romans 5:12 states: “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men in that all men have sinned”.
And so when we sin, we also are spiritually separated from God. We do not have a personal relationship with him. We are obeying our own thoughts rather than obeying his Word. Our sins have not been forgiven, and God is not the Father of our Spirit. And because we have broken God's Law we also are due judgment.
Romans 6:23 states: “FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IN DEATH BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD”.
Jesus paid the penalty or the judgment that was due us because of sin. He died in our stead. He overcame sin and death through perfect obedience to God. This then this is the gospel (good news). “For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that that believeth not is condemned already, because he hat not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”. (John 3:16-18)
When we have believed God's testimony regarding his giving His Son to pay the judgment that is against us, we come to him acknowledging that we have sinned with a repentant heart. Water baptism signifies that we are united with Jesus in his death (that is we have died to sin), burial, and his resurrection (as the Spirit of God raised Jesus from the dead, we also in this union are raised from the dead into a personal relationship with God). Our sins have been washed away by the precious blood of our Lord Jesus. God is now the Father of our Spirit, but we are babies in Christ at this point. THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY BEING BORN AGAIN. (Romans 6:2-18) We then become like Jesus as we learn to obey the commandments that came from God through him, and when we make a mistake, and we do make mistakes, when we ask God to forgive us, it is the blood that washes away our sin. (1 John 1:5-10) And we could not become like Jesus if we did not have somewhere that we could practice his word.
That there are people in authority in the church this is true. Ephesians 4:11-13 states: “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; (then God tells us the reason for this) for the perfecting of the saints, for work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”.
Also, those in authority also started just as anyone else in the body of Christ, they were born again and were babes in Christ, and had to learn obedience. They were tried and found faithful and, therefore, they are in authority. (1 Tim 3:1-13)
Not everyone who is in authority has been ordained by God.
1 Co. 12:13-14 states: “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many”.
My understanding of the 144,000 is that they will be in authority in the church in these last days. Rev. 14:1 states: “AND I LOOKED, AND, LO, A LAMB AND WITH HIM AND HUNDRED FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, HAVING HIS FATHER'S NAME WITTEN IN THEIR FOREHEADS”. Isaiah 2:2-3 states: “AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, THAT THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD'S HOUSE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED IN THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAINS, AND SHALL BE EXALTED ABOVE THE HILLS; AND ALL NATIONS SHALL FLOW UNTO IT. AND MANY PEOPLE SHALL GO AND SAY, COME YE, AND LET US GO UP TO THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD, TO THE HOUSE OF THE GOD OF JACOB; AND HE WILL TEACH US OF HIS WAYS, AND WE WILL WALK IN HIS PATHS: FOR OUT ZION SHALL GO FORTH THE THE LAW, AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM”. Romans 11:26 states: “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIVERER, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB:”.
Where I was agreeing with you about the 144,000 is that I do not believe that they are literal Jews as some are teaching. Some may very well be from the Jewish nation of Israel. But the Israel of God are all the members of the body of Christ. (Gal. 6:15-16) And when the apostle Paul states that “all of Israel will be saved”, he is referring to the Israel of God of the Gentile nations and of the nation of Israel. (Romans 11:26, Romans 9:6-7)
One cannot teach others unless one is first qualified by God to teach. Of the 144,000 Rev:14:4-5 states: “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. (They are not spiritually defiled with false doctrine) These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb”.
Romans 11:26 states: “…There shall come out Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob”.
Anyone who has not been born again as I have described to you above is still in their sins, and thereby, not in a personal relationship with God.
David,
Thank you for your response.Quote Discounting you and speaking generally, there are “many” who truly believe with all their heart that they are saved. And yet, they aren't. They may even have “powerful works” behind them. All I'm saying is that you “know” you are saved. A lot of people “know” they are saved, but are clearly not. Yes there will be many who will feel they have earned their way to heaven but don't really know God. However I believe scripture is also clear that those with a relationship with God can still be confident otherwise weren't Paul, Peter, James, and John being presumptuous in much of scripture. I do not read any doubt in Paul's writings on his eternal standing prior to his death.
While I appreciate the history on birthdays, I prefer to stick to what scripture has to say about it since through out history you can find someone to quote, saying just about anything you want (not that it is not good for reference). I do not believe that the scriptures were teaching that birthdays were evil anymore then it teaches that a haircut will lead to your eyes being gouged out or that we should only use bowls, as platters are also mentioned in the birthday verses and even played a part in the beheading of John. I believe there are many items mentioned in scripture which you could, using that logic, determine to be evil which within themselves are nothing,
Quote
So not all die before the return of the King, who then sets out to rule the earth from Jerusalem.
My question Nick, is who do they rule over? They “rule the earth” So there are people on the earth they rule over, yes?Hi NINE, you stated:
Quote Where I was agreeing with you about the 144,000 is that I do not believe that they are literal Jews as some are teaching.
I think everyone on here would disagree with you nine, except for me.Quote When we have believed God's testimony regarding his giving His Son to pay the judgment that is against us, we come to him acknowledging that we have sinned with a repentant heart. Water baptism signifies that we are united with Jesus in his death (that is we have died to sin), burial, and his resurrection (as the Spirit of God raised Jesus from the dead, we also in this union are raised from the dead into a personal relationship with God). Our sins have been washed away by the precious blood of our Lord Jesus. God is now the Father of our Spirit, but we are babies in Christ at this point. THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY BEING BORN AGAIN.
By that definition, you may consider all JW's are born again. But I think we're not looking at the whole picture.Quote My understanding of the 144,000 is that they will be in authority in the church in these last days. As you know, I believe they are the holy ones or saints who receive the kingdom and rule with Christ for the benefit of mankind.
Quote Where I was agreeing with you about the 144,000 is that I do not believe that they are literal Jews as some are teaching. Some may very well be from the Jewish nation of Israel. But the Israel of God are all the members of the body of Christ. (Gal. 6:15-16) And when the apostle Paul states that “all of Israel will be saved”, he is referring to the Israel of God of the Gentile nations and of the nation of Israel. (Romans 11:26, Romans 9:6-7)
I actually agree with everything you just said. I find it interesting that you use the expression “Israel of God” in a way that only JW's seem to. It's also fascinating to me that you understand was we do that “all of Israel will be saved” is referrring to the Israel of God.david
Hi Seeking,
Quote I do not read any doubt in Paul's writings on his eternal standing prior to his death.
No, nor do I Seekingtruth.But I don't read any doubt in those that are to say: “Lord, Lord…” either.
Quote While I appreciate the history on birthdays, I prefer to stick to what scripture has to say about it since through out history you can find someone to quote, saying just about anything you want (not that it is not good for reference). Questions:
1. Why do you think the early Christians refused to celebrate birthdays (including Jesus birthday)? There is no record of Christians celebrating Jesus birth for hundreds of years. Why did they refuse to do so? (I can provide a string of quotes saying they didn't, if you like, showing that the early Christians regarded them as a practive for the pagans) They didn't just neglect to do so. They purposefully avoided celebrating them. My question to you: WHY? Why do you think? And DO YOU THINK THEIR REASONS ARE UNIMPORTANT?2. “ALL scripture is …. beneficial for teaching, for setting things straight.” (2 tim 3:16,17)
My second question to you: Why do the only two accounts of birthdays in the Bible (Pharoah and Herod) both involve bloodshed of God's servants? If all scripture including those scriptures are beneficial for teaching, what do we learn from them? Why does the Bible present birthdays in such a negative light? It is not just a coincidence that the only birthdays mentioned involved bloodshed. Looking at history, we see the same. So my question to you is: If the Bible presents birthdays this way, why disregard it? Are those accounts not part of the “all scripture” that is beneficial for setting things straight? You say you prefer to stick to what scripture has to say about it. Do you?3. Yes, lots of things are pagan. Lots of things have idolatrous roots. Birthdays are one of them. The birthday observance was common in many polytheistic cultures. Idolatrous rites were performed in honoro fhte patron god of each particular birthday, and birthdays of mythical gods like Saturn and Apollo were celebrated.
If you think the quotes are wrong and the customs or origins are wrong, I ask you why the birthday cake? Why the candles? Find a source that explains it in another way.
Over and over again in the references that I am looking at, I see that the early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because of associating it with idolatry. Over and over again I see this. The Bible clearly condemns idolatry. (1 cor 6:9,10; Eph 5:5)
My question to you is: Has this faded in God's memory? What does God think of such things? God saw first hand where this celebration came from the the trail of blood that followed it. Is it just “innocent fun” to Jehovah? What do you think?Birthday celebrations are rooted in idolatry and they have left a trail of blood. Faithful first century Chritians would not have felt like joining in a custom so darkly presented in the Bible and so gruesomely celebrated by the Romans. Today, sincere Christians realize that the Bible accounts about birthdays were among the things written for our instruction. (Rom 15:4)
Jesus and the apostles fortold and apostasy. Many things changed. I find the following quote very revealing:
“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ. . . .In the next 300 years this attitude began to change, and in 354 A.D., the Bishop of Rome declared December 25 to be the anniversary of the birth of Christ.”–Frontier, Dec, 1981
It wasn't ok. Then, it was. Sounds like part of the fortold apostasy.
david
Hi Seeking truth,
Quote Hi,
The JWs are often referred to as modern Arians. But Arius, for all his faults, did not come up with new doctrines such as Jesus being an angel called Michael, or all men being forgiven at death.These bizarre follies come from an approach to scripture that is poor and disordered lacking proper care with proofs and the seeking of witnessing evidence before the declaring of unscriptural and demonic doctrines.
Then they go door to door spreading these falsehoods without thought of the risks of doing such things to themselves and others.
–Nick
Seekingtruth, you write:
Quote the JW's seem to take pride in being hated, and true Christians will be, but I feel that the JW's make it a self fulfilling prophecy with attitudes, and presentations. No one had commented in the arians thread for a month. Then Nick says this which seems to come out of nowhere. Is that an attack? Am I to feel hated by it? How shall I feel?
Casey, I am wondering what you think of the post above about birthdays. I think that Christmas and birthdays were one of the first things you mentioned to me. What would you say to the three questions I asked?
david
Quote Discounting you and speaking generally, there are “many” who truly believe with all their heart that they are saved. And yet, they aren't. They may even have “powerful works” behind them. All I'm saying is that you “know” you are saved. A lot of people “know” they are saved, but are clearly not. Hi David!
If what you are saying is true then how do you know that you are saved?
You say “A lot of people “**KNOW**” they are saved, but are clearly not.” If this is true than no one can be assured of their salvation!
There are many scriptures that assure us of our salvation! If one has doubt then maybe he isn’t saved!
Jn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
[17] If any man will do his will, he shall **KNOW** of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.Jn 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
[4] And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they **KNOW** his voice.
[5] And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye **KNOW** him, and have seen him.Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might **KNOW** thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I Cor. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might **KNOW** the things that are freely given to us of God.2 Tim 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I **KNOW** whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
[13] Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.Blessings!
David: I have been working on a document that I just finished yesterday afternoon in which I have tried to present your inquiries, comments and beliefs fairly as best as I could. I figured you have been pretty busy with multiple people now presenting you with a plethora of information to analyze and respond to hence the wait. I now have to type more to this document since the birthday, Christmas and assurance of salvation has been a topic lately.
Quote Before I said that I was counting all the times Jehovah was mentioned and the number of times Jesus was mentioned and found them to be tied within three to five pages. What I ignorantly did not pay attention to was I was reading a chapter that spoke of Jesus. The rest of the booklet almost entirely quoted OT passages attempting to show how to serve Jehovah and please Him. You tend to look at little samples of a much larger picture, like with the 2 out of 5 annointed that visited you. It's a small sample and doesn't reflect the whole.
I did a search. It's a 2:1 ratio almost exactly in our publications. Not just in one article or magazine but as a whole.Yes but I am not speaking of merely one booklet. I have read many of your Awake and Watchtower magazines. Where I lived a few years ago the witnesses would leave them in the laundry room. A few magazines now and again would speak of Jesus.
Quote The Watchtower's emphasis however is almost to the neglect of Jesus. There's no way to say this except, you're wrong. I've done the math. You've looked at one magazine. Yes, sometimes certain things are focused on. If a person looks at a magazine on marriage, he may falsely conclude that all we discuss is marriage. Such thinking is folly. Would you like the exact numbers again? I've given them to you once on this forum already. I had thought it was someone else, when you brought it up a second time, but it was you and this is the third time. I know you're trying to make some kind of point, but it is based in error. The math is clear and irrefutable.
Actually as I stated above, this is not based on one magazine or booklet. To judge the whole of the Watchtower literature on one booklet would be a very unfair treatment. I have four of the small little booklets at home and only a few of the Watchtowers since they aren’t left anywhere I live. Remind me of the math. I don’t remember any numbers except for the number of literature printed. Maybe you did but I don’t recall.
Quote Quote
A witness who came to my apt once when I showed him numerous references regarding our future in heaven stated, “the majority of the NT is written specifically to the anointed (144,000). I felt sorry for them. They could not read the NT without wondering if the wonderful things written thereof pertain to them.Look at the beginning of most of the letters. They are often specifically mentioned as being the ones those letters are written to, the holy ones.
There is another thread that discusses the holy ones (saints) that has recently gotten some interest. I believe seekingtruth and definitely kenrch both believe that there seems to be a distinction between these holy ones and the rest. Please visit that thread and see my comments and that of others. I have put down some scriptures there explaining.
Then why read the Scriptures at all if they do not pertain to ALL of us believers? What purpose would the WHOLE of Scripture mean to us who are not the “anointed”?
Quote Quote
Are you or any JW born again?Yes, there are those who are born from water and spirit for the purpose of entering the kingdom of God.
These are the 144,000 (and Jesus) made up a lot of as you show, those of the first century and stretching to our time. These are the only ones that need to be born again.That is a looooong period to stretch. How many of JW’s since your organization was founded in the late 1800’s early 1900’s considered themselves the elect? That is not to come off as condescending but serious. Do you know how many or is their a record?
Quote The first man, Adam, was created a perfect human son of God. (Luke 3:38) Jehovah God never intended that Adam should die. (Question: Would Adam ever have to be born again?) Adam would not have to be born again since he never died for the need of being born again. On that note I am curious how the rest of the people in this earthly paradise are going to be resurrected. According to 1 Corinthians 15 the resurrection will be of a spiritual seed which you will respond with those are the anointed but how will the rest be resurrected? When Paul spoke of seeds that are planted in the ground, he never mentioned that the same seed that was sown and died would sprout the same plant. In other words the seed that was planted in the ground (this body of flesh) would have to die and be resurrected into something greater. How do witnesses reconcile the verses speaking of a resurrection pertaining to them that are not elect?
Quote Adam and his wife, Eve, had the prospect of producing a sinless human family that would live forever and fill a paradise earth. (Genesis 1:28) Death was not part of God’s original purpose for man and woman. It invaded the human scene only as a result of rebellion against divine law.—Genesis 2:15-17; Herein lies a HUGE problem from the beginning of all witness literature. It goes back to the very beginning of the Garden. JW’s see the plan of God being thwarted by Satan and Satan’s plan actually overthrowing God’s original decree. Sort of like God did not know this was going to happen and had to come up with a back up plan B. Scripture however says that the Lamb of God was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. If the Lamb was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world then we must conclude the NEED for this sacrifice would we not?
The position taken from the JW’s perspective is not plausible for this very reason. It is purported from your (witnesses as a whole) that IF Adam and Eve had not sinned then we would all live in this euphoric state of bliss on paradise Earth. However, there are many reasons this is unfounded. The beginning of Earth itself was without form (Hebrew chaos) and darkness. If God made a perfect planet for humanly creatures to dwell eternally in, it most certainly would not contain chaos or darkness for in Him there is no darkness or shifting shadow. If this planet was created for this purpose, then God would not allow Satan and his minions to live in it. HOWEVER! THAT IS NOT THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE!!! THE BEST IS YET TO COME!!!God in His Providence so decreed the events of Adam and Eve that came to pass! His purposes cannot be thwarted. His intentions will be carried out. There is NO creature no matter how powerful they may be (the power was given to them by God mind you) that can actually challenge, overcome, and conquer the Sovereignty of Almighty God. Hence, Adam and Eve did not surprise God for God Himself either allowed or placed the Serpent into this “paradise” state.
And yet, this is the very foundation upon which JW’s begin their doctri
ne. That Satan is so powerful He is testing God’s Sovereignty and in some sense playing tennis with Him. He is a mere pond in the purposes of God. How would we know love without hate? How would we know mercy without injustice or cruelty? Satan stated to Eve that God knew that we would be like Him (God) knowing good from evil or righteousness from unrighteousness. That statement alone showed that we had no such knowledge of these two dichotomies. The very words of “perfection” and “imperfection” or “fallen state” prove this fact. Adam and Eve had no concept of living in a perfect blissful paradise. To them it was life and they hung out with God.Quote This rebellion raised huge moral issues, such as the rightfulness of God’s sovereignty and the ability of humans to remain faithful to his laws. Time would be needed to settle these issues. But Jehovah God’s purpose for mankind did not change, and he cannot fail in what he sets out to do. He fully intends to fill the earth with a perfect human family that will enjoy everlasting life in Paradise. (Psalm 37:29; 104:5; Isaiah 45:18; Luke 23:43) Could not have said it better myself. This paragraph shows what I said. Although humans had NO SUCH ability to remain faithful to His laws. Paul even stated that the law was given to show sin and that NO MAN would be justified according to the law. If Adam and Eve had the ability then by your theory, in eternity the same ability would co-exist and God’s intended plan fails. As if God is saying, “Shucks! If only these humans would listen! I am so surprised at this! Every time I have a plan for these people they go and mess it up!” That is absurd and the statement obviously facetious. Let me reiterate…God’s Plan Can Never Be Thwarted By Any Creature. God did not have to let Satan test Job so He could find out how true Job would stay to Him. He already knew from the beginning the outcome of the test. If you recall, Satan had to receive PERMISSION to break Job down. The witness literature however claims that Job is righteous because he stood firm. Job is only righteous according to the Grace and Mercy given him by God alone for NONE seek God and None are good or righteous for our so called self-proclaimed righteousness is a menstrual rag in the sight of God.
Quote We must keep this fundamental truth in mind when we consider Jesus’ words about being born again.
Indicating that there are two groups of humans that will benefit from God’s gracious provisions are the words of the apostle Paul found at Romans 8:19-21:
“For the eager expectation of the creation [one group] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [another group]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”Scripture does not mention two groups in eternity except the wicked and the righteous. The first group you mention as creation is creation in regards to the Galaxies, Solar System, Earth and all that is in it from plants to all creatures of the land and Sea. God subjected the creation to futility and that creation that is destroyed from man’s wickedness groans from pains of death and destruction for the sons of God (all that are born again) to be revealed. Why? Because when this is finally taken place, creation will be restored with the impossibility to ever be destroyed again.
Quote Humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood
1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” (So, those who make up the kingdom (divinely instituted government with Christ and his associate rulers would have to be “born from the spirit,” to inherit the heavenly kingdom.)
Which goes to show that those ONLY that are born again will be with Christ in eternity. But your logic becomes illogical when you present that these corrupted creature will be able to endure the powers of God and the Glory He is going to share with the subjects reigning in eternity. The very idea is absurd is it not? The witnesses theory that there will be a resurrection of spiritual heavenly creatures in incorruption and creatures that are resurrected with another decaying body is nowhere founded in the Scriptures. There is a resurrection of the righteous and the damned.Quote Only persons who have been “born again,” thus becoming God’s sons, can share in the heavenly Kingdom John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (“As many as did receive him” does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by verse 11 [“his own people,” the Jews]. The same privilege has been extended to others of mankind, but only to a “little flock.”)
Rom. 8:16, 17: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”
1 Pet. 1:3, 4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”These verses are for ALL WHO DID RECEIVE HIM. Did you receive Him? If you did not then you are not apart of Him and not apart of His body.
All these Scriptures you have posted are not for a mere 144,000 but for ALL who received Him. For all who call on His Name (Jesus). For all who have received the Spirit of God and of Christ. For all who submit to the Scriptures and in so doing along with the Spirit of God working in and through Him producing fruit unto righteousness. A righteousness that is not of works of the law but of faith in Jesus Christ according to GRANTED mercy that is not a reward which is something worked for, but a gift which is NOT DESERVED.
Quote Casey, in regards to question 1, The Greek word (a•po•ka′ly•psis) “revelation” denotes “an uncovering” or a revealing or a disclosure.
A lot was revealed in that book.
Concerning the revelation of “the sacred secret,” the apostle Paul wrote:
“In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in uni
on with Christ Jesus through the good news.”—Eph 3:1-6; Ro 16:25.Wow! What a revelation! That people of the nations, people of THE NATIONS, should be joint heirs and actually fellow members of the body.
There is a theme that runs through the Bible. I believe that theme is God's kingdom and specifically the “seed” who would be ruler of that kingdom, Christ Jesus. If you look in the first chapters of Genesis, you find mention of that seed, but we aren't given everything at once. Slowly, we learn more and more of this sacred secret, this mystery. It is not revealed all at once. Some things were left to be disclosed or revealed in the book of Revelation. That is what the word means after all.
The hole in this idea is self evident to them who know Church History and at least have some familiarity. Revelation is the last book to be written around 90AD. NONE of the believers during the first century that had died, died with their faith in vain. For all of them that heard the message of the Gospel of Christ and believed, believed they were born again and would be a joint heir with Christ. This “unveiling” that you speak of as 144,000 being the ONLY ones to be born again is not plausible anywhere in the ENTIRE rest of the Scriptures. When Jesus mentioned the small flock, was he talking to 144,000 people? This is where the correct science of hermeneutics comes in:
What was said?
Who was is spoken to?
What was said before and after?
What is the context in which Jesus or the speaker sending?
What is the region and language being spoken?
What time was this passage originally given?If you follow just SOME of these you will see that Jesus is calling this little flock them that were TRUE (not weeds but wheat) followers, disciples of His that He knew would be with Him in eternity. The people He was speaking to were few not many. The ones who had “ears to hear” were the intended receivers, not them that were blinded lest they turn from their sins and be forgiven. They were hardened all for the purposes of God according to Romans 9-11.
Since the hearers were few, it is conclusive they would be calling a “little flock”. If this little flock was for the 144,000 then they would all would have to had been there hearing Jesus speaking. The Great Crowd that is seen in the Apocalypse are the millions of believer over the expanse of time who are born again saved by the Grace of God seen in a VISION.In reference to your thinking that the Jews as a chosen people being cast away is contrary and even a contradiction against the Promises and Word of God. God does not repent of His Promises. He may be upset and in His Holiness punish us as a Father would, but He would never deny His Children the Promise given for He is not man that He should change His mind or the son of man. Paul says in Romans 11 that we are an unnatural wild olive shoot grafted in the original plant. There remains a remnant of believing Jews that are still apart of the Branch. The rest were hardened for a season until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then they too will be sharers of the Branch. For if we who are unnatural shoots God can graft into something foreign to it’s nature, how much more will God graft the original Branches? Now according to the witnesses, they were cut off for eternity and there are only 144,000 Gentile witnesses that God has now chosen. Even that is illogical. The 144,000 are specifically mentioned as descendents of Israel’s twelve tribes – 12,000 from each tribe. I mistakenly said that I did not realize that they were “virgins” according to apostasy. However, I was originally correct in saying they were virgins according to the flesh. For the passage states specifically they had never touched a woman. If you however say that this passage mentioning the 144,000 as Jews is an allegory then you must conclude the number itself it likely an allegorical number. You can’t pick and choose what you wish for a passage to read. That is bias in its very nature.
Quote Anyway, my point is, they might have thought that the kingdom was about to be “restored to Israel” but they were wrong. They were still had some fleshly thinking to abandon. So your saying: they believed this small number was already met since they spoke of Christ coming at that time as emminent. is based on the false belief that Christ's coming was imminent at that time. Nowhere does scripture say that they believed that this number was met in the first century.
I will quote you…that is completely wrong. Paul when speaking to the Churches at Thessalonica said that the hour had not come but if you read carefully what he wrote, he most certainly did expect that the kingdom was immanent. You quoted Acts when the apostles mistakenly thought this kingdom would one be an earthly kingdom in which the Jews would rule and reign over the rest of the world with Jesus being a king. They also mistakenly that any sort of kingdom would be at that time. The Father however had other things on His mind like engrafting the “other sheep” that were not of that fold…us Gentiles! Yipee!!! We, in God’s Grace share in the blessings originally given specifically to the Jews, for salvation is of the Jews. Jesus is concerned with as you stated time and again, “the Nations” from which all of His elect are. These “great crowd” that you are fond of referring to are actually all of us who have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb – Praises unto Him!!!
Quote Anyway, they and Jesus had been preaching that the kingdom had drawn near. It was their message.
However, it is not reported that after Jesus’ death the disciples proclaimed the Kingdom as having “drawn near” or as being at hand. Rather, the good news they preached was that after Jesus had laid down his life as the ransom price for salvation, he ascended to heaven and was then sitting at God’s right hand. They also preached about Jesus’ return at a later time and his Kingdom to come.—Heb 10:12, 13; 2Ti 4:1; Re 11:15; 12:10; 22:20; compare Lu 19:12, 15; Mt 25:31.Here is the misunderstanding I think you and all witnesses seem to miss. If indeed Jesus came here to proclaim the Kingdom to be set up then He would have done so. Yet, we find just the opposite in Scripture. We find that the people rallied to make Jesus their king. What did He do? He fled. Why? Because the Kingdom He was proclaiming was a Kingdom of God – A Kingdom of Heaven. As he spoke to Pontius Pilate: “Are you the king of the Jews?”, “It is as you say…my kingdom is not of this world.” Jesus did not come here to proclaim an earthly kingdom. He came here to proclaim a kingdom message (that was not of this earth) that ONLY THE ELECT COULD RECEIVE and not the people. Jesus said that ALL the Father would draw unto Him, WILL COME. He in no wise would cast them away. No one could snatch Him out of His hand, No one can snatch him out of His Father’s hand, they are one. (I have seen the comment of “once saved always saved” spoken a few times. I adhere to the concept, but the axiom is incorrect…that would be another discussion for another day). My point is Jesus came to die…His message was given to the elect; His words likewise will judge the non-elect. When the apostles spread the message, like you, they misunderstood that the kingdom of God would be on earth but unlike you, consisting of Jews alone. They had no inclination that the Gentiles would inherit the Kingdom.
In the end of this post I think there are a
few main points.
1)The Kingdom of God that Jesus proclaimed was the Kingdom of His Father.
1a) This kingdom is a heavenly domain.
1b) The requirement for ALL PEOPLE to enter this Kingdom is to be born again.
1c) The central message of the apostles that were to ALL PEOPLE (not to a small 144,000) was first spoken of by Peter (the keys of the kingdom were given to Him…what are those keys David?); He used the OT prophecies to show the disbelieving Jews how the Christ was to suffer at there hands and be resurrected. The Jews pricked of their heart were commanded to: REPENT, BE BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME, RECEIVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD. After these requirements if you will, were met – THEN the kingdom message and the words of Christ were taught and the Scriptures were studied which were only at this time OT Scriptures since not one of the NT letters had been written.2) The 144,000 are virgin Israelites – not Gentiles and not married Gentiles especially.
3) The Jews WILL be grafted back in and their promises stemmed from Abraham on will be fulfilled in God’s timing.
4) GOD IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY DECREED ALL OF THE EVENTS FROM ADAM AND EVE TO THIS CURRENT TIME. NOTHING IS OUTSIDE OF HIS WILL, NOTHING SHOCKS HIM, NOTHING SURPRISES HIM…HIS PLANS WILL SUCCEED. SATAN HAS NO AUTHORITY OUTSIDE OF WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN HIM WHICH IS LIMITED AT BEST.
In conclusion I see a trend in the witnesses that set you up for error from the original premise of your founder’s doctrine. God planned for ALL this to happen for one which I have stressed I think well enough. The biggest problem lies in the dividing of the people of God one for heaven, one for earth. With that as your starting point, all else seems to topple. Dividing the people of God into two group forces into Scripture the is conflicting with everything Paul surmise in his letters. He mentioned in Ephesians three how the Gentiles were one in the seed of Abraham according to the promise, along side the Jews. Not only have the witnesses divided this group, they then break the Jewish people of God altogether. We then end up with not one, not two, but three groups. THEN there are two more groups. The unrighteous given another chance and the unrighteous who will never be resurrected. We now have FIVE groups of people!
Well as I stated before, I was finished but now I must answer things pertaining to holidays. Birthdays I think SeekingTruth stated very well. To begin with you are beginning with a platform from which to build your structure. What you do not do though is test your hypothesis. For a hypothesis to become a fact or truth according to science it must be proven. In order to be proven it must pass rigerous tests and not contradict previous finding. In theology or this case a hypothesis on birthdays or Christmas you have not tested your theory from the opposing side. If you study the case for birthdays being ok to celebrate (I did not say “had” to; it is an option to do or not to do) you may come to a different conclusion or you may vilify your hypothesis. However it seems you have not done so. If I take a position and lay that position down as my foundation, it would be easy for me to build upon. I can study Church History and quote early Church Fathers. I can find millions of websites that support my theory. If I wanted to build a building in support of my PRESUMED idea, theory, hypothesis to make it a fact it would be very easy to. All I have to do is find others like minded who took their ideas that again were PRESUMED and have an army of quotes. The problem is I have already biasly taken an idea and assumed it is correct. The presumption is never tested, and the elements in which I built my structure were not inspected and standing against all odds, the storms of the opposing side will topple my self made structure for it was never questioned to begin with.
Now saying that to get to the meat. Scripture does not forbid the celebration of birthdays. To use a few passages where people were murdered or martyred on these special occassions is not very wise. It would be like saying that Jesus showed it ok to get drunk at wedding feasts, feasts that lasted 7 days according to Jewish tradition. You cannot base your actions on Scriptures that merely show what people did. So it is ok to have thousands of wives like Solomon? Rhetorical obviously for it begs the question. Since Scripture is silent on such things as celebrating Jesus's birthday and celebrating birthdays and tested with Scripture they are not withstood, condemned and at the same time condoned or commended. If you read carefully what Paul had to say in regards to placing one day above another in Colossians your organization would not have this problem. For Paul says that some regard all days alike and some emphasize some days over otherdays. However Paul states that all is done unto the Lord. Paul would have no qualms with either of these disputes you present. To me it is a mere distraction of what is more importance like being born again, the elect including millions more than 144,000 and other more important discussions. What these side issues do prove is that the religion of a group called Jehovah Witnesses has formed itself on strict legalism and placed true salvation as coming FROM the believer and not FROM GOD.
You may present the day as a day for the pagan Sun god. I myself have a problem with rabbits and eggs and the term “Easter” but celebrating Resurrection Sunday is not wrong; in fact if you look you will not find that the first believers did celebrate this day so what can you reply to that? You may show these many American customs as wrong in any fashion you can find but that does not make it wrong nor does it make your foundation right. ALL IS DONE UNTO THE LORD according to the conscience of the believer. John and Paul both said that sometimes we judge ourselves to strictly and sometimes we do not judge ourselves enough but John in 1 John said that God is greater than our hearts if our hearts condemn us. Paul said that to go against conscience is sinning against Christ. So if you feel celebrating birthday is wrong, to you it is wrong then. But question why this goes against your conscience. Is it because of tradition? Are you condeming a tradition WITH tradition. A tradition that has developed over time in the Watchtower?
On another note, the presentation of joining the American Armed forces being wrong does not stand up in court. America is the only country aside for some in Britain that defends Israel's cause. God will keep America blessed for that very fact. America has slumped in morality and we are being judged, but we defend Israel's cause and the other nations are against Israel whom Satan hates also and some like N Korea and Iran would have them off the map if we would join them. Time and again the witness literature and you yourself have presented the holocaust and the witnesses joining the German Army but again this is just another futile attempt to defend pacifism. No real believing Christian would join Hitler's military campaign then. The true born again believing Protestants did not. The ideology that Hitler spoke was full of hate and evil. True Christians saw straight through the smoke screen. If Bush placed an attack on Israel, true believers would rather die or be placed in quarantine – or the brig. The nations of the world for the most part are not Christian so the thesis that Christians will be killing other Christians is just plan ludicrous. I think the Spirit of God in the born again believers is strong and wise enough to keep the elect from such killing.
…after thought I forgot:
Why do witnesses worship on Sunday? The day of the Sun? Did not Rome begin this tradition? So the witnesses are found condemned by the same condemnation they spew. Did the original Church worship on Sunday? Paul and the other Apostles met in the Synagouge until the Chritians were disfellowshipped and then they met in homes…most likely on Saturday.
Hi casey
You say
“Scripture however says that the Lamb of God was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world.”
Not so. That is a result of misunderstanding of the context of Rev 13.8 and shown only in kjv.Compare rev 17.8.Revelation 13:7-9 (New International Version)
7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
Quote the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world Revelation 13:8 (New American Standard Bible)
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Footnotes:
Revelation 13:8 Or written in the book slain from the foundation of the world
Nick: I do not use the KJV in any of my studies. The NIV gives a thought for thought or meaning for meaning termed a “dynamic equivalence” different from the paraphrase. The New World Translation Committe made up from over 100 translators taken from over 20 different denominations (to assure against biases) did not flippantly decide to translate this verse from the Greek into English this way. When taken into context and comparing the Greek usage, they deemed the verse was more grammatically correct than the wooden literal NASB or ESV. However, I do use the NASB predominately in my textual variant studies.
Even the NASB's literal:
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
…shows what I stated is correct. The names written in this BOOK were written from (or Greek idiom – before) the foundation of the world and the Lamb who has been slain. The only possibility for these names to be in this Book were taken from a slain Lamb; God calling things that are not as though they are.
Or if you want to dig deeper you can see the actual most literal version correlates with the dynamic translation:
8And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
To argue the Lamb of God (The Word made flesh, Yeshua Messiah) was not seen as slain from the foundation of the world is futile and has no ground…actually not even worth discussing it is so self evident.
OOPS!!! I meant The NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION COMMITTEE…the witnesses discussion was fresh in my mind.
Hi Casey,
Revelation 13:8 (New American Standard Bible)8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Compare Rev 17
” 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.'Seems likely by comparison that the lamb was slain while on earth but his book of life was written “from the foundation of the world”
1 peter 1
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.'
Quote Seems likely by comparison that the lamb was slain while on earth but his book of life was written “from the foundation of the world” What would this “book” need to be for if not for the Lamb's Book of Life? It isn't speaking of the names of every individual who had lived for the names not written therin are cast away eternally. Where there is a book, there is a Lamb and vice versa.
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