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Hi t8, you write:
Quote
The more useful organisations in my opinion are organisations that distribute bibles and fund missionaries.Quote I think you will find that most or at least a big percentage of the money and resources are used in administration and buildings.
Bibles are made in buildings. Coming together to meet at homes in small groups is fine, but try making Bibles at home. Try making tens of millions of them at home.
So those Bibles that you speak of being distributed, etc need to come from somewhere.
It seems that in the long run, if you're going to undergo a massive worldwide distribution, it's much cheaper to make them yourselves then to have a publisher make Bibles.
It is sad though that many organizations force their members to tithe, as you agree. And it's sad that so many religions get rich off their flock and live a life of luxury, covered in rings and jewelry, living in mansions.“You received free, give free.”–Mat 10:8
david
Lets start with “disfellowshipping,” Casey.
Its true that Jehovahs Witnesses are known for disfellowshipping people–tens of thousands a year actually. This sets us apart from other religions that turn a blind eye toward serious sins.
Here is something that a JW said on a message board in the “Deliver Us From Evil” website.
That message board speaks of the abuses in the Catholic church and then someone started speaking of JW. Here's what someone said regarding disfellowshipping:“I think it needs to be addressed that Jehovah's Witnesses have:
No clergy/laity class.
There is no hierarchy of power- we are all brothers and sisters.
We are all ministers.
We are also ALL IMPERFECT.Elders in the congregation are loving shepherds meeting scriptural qualifications who are there to instruct and take care of congregation matters, paperwork, literature ordering etc. They are husbands and fathers and are employed outside the congregation. They are not paid. They provide all their work freely – which was the way Jesus instructed.
They NEVER or SHOULD NEVER meet with any person alone. When handling a matter with one of the brothers or sisters there are always one or two other people present. This makes it impossible for any wrongdoing to take place and also prevents others who might be stumbled or make accuasations unable to do so. It's kind of like when a Dr. has a nurse in the office when he examines a patient. It is for the protection of all parties involved.
Scripturally it is wrong for any person to violate another sexually. However, it is also wrong for someone to ALLOW themselves to be violated. The Bible teaches us that any sexual activity outside the marriage arrangement is wrong and all Witnesses are well aware of that – even our children. This does not however mean small, helpless innocent children can't be violated becaue they can be overtaken physically by anyone. I am not talking about rape or forced sexual activity, I am talking about seduction. Many who have succomed to sexual abuse have been seduced into it, without force. They say they thought it was OK because the priest/minister/uncle/whoever, was someone they looked up to and admired.
This knowledge of God's view of sexual activity helps prevent our children from being “seduced” into these kinds of unclean acts. Again of course, that does not prevent an older person from physically overtaking them.
When a person commits a serious wrongdoing against another in the christian congregation the matter has to be handled according to scripture. It is at the “mouth of two or more witnesses” that a matter can be brought to justice so to speak. If I were to accuse someone of molesting me and I had absolutely no evidence of it, and the offending party would not admit it to the elders, the elders in the congregation's hands are tied. They are not detectives, as are not the clergy of the Catholic church, but they would direct you to go to the police. There you could seek justice for what had been done to you and an investigation could take place. The organization would not transfer or move the offender in question some place else because again the accused would be a person who lived, and worked in the community. They do not move people to other congregations. They do not provide housing for them nor do they support them financially in any way. We all support ourselves.
Individuals that I know of who have had this happen to them are ones who have become disgruntled because the accused person would not admit his sin, there was no evidence it really happened and the elders in the congregation then were not able to disfellowship the accused person. However, they had every right and opportunity to seek legal justice.
Does this mean the abuse did not happen? No. It means there was no way to prove it happened. But of course the wronged person could seek legal justice.
Jehovan's Witnesses disfellowship thousands of people each year for a lot less serious sins than sexual abuse, things many of the religions of christendom wink at (fornication, adultery etc). They are interested in keeping the congregation clean and our children protected. The congregation elders could be sued for slander if they accused someone of wrongdoing with no proof – even if the person REALLY DID DO IT!!! That is not OUR rule that is the LAW. That is why they are careful not to discuss these matters with others or speak of them publically. That is the responsibility of the injured party.
We do NOT want pedophiles or anyone like them identifying themselves with our organization because they bring reproach on our God Jehovah. Individuals within the organization that may be committing these acts will be dealt with quickly and I know of one personally who was. Good riddence to him!! He was immediatly disfellowshipped from the congregation, and is currently in prison.
Sexual abuse of children is just another sign that we are in the last day. It is a horrible, despicable crime against the most innocent. It is a crime that is done in private, in secret and at times is very hard to prove. I feel sorry for anyone in any situatuation who has suffered this abuse or had their child suffer. We can find comfort in the fact though that these individuals do not go undetected by God. If they cannot be proven guilty in this sytem of things by either the Christian congregation or the legal system, they will certainly be found guilty by God and they WILL pay the ultimate price. In the meantime, we need to draw close to our loving creator, and seek his truth, love and comfort through the scriptures.
***If a person studies the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses and wants to become a baptized member, if they have committed a serious crime BEFORE they began their Bible study, in order to get baptized, they would have to go to the police and admit their crime. One of our brothers did this. He had killed someone years prior to becoming a witness. When he learned the truth of the Bible and developed a relationship with Jehovah God he made serious changes in his life. He went to the elders and admitted what he had done and wanted to know what he should do about it. They told him before he could get baptized he would have to go to the police and admit his crime. He did go to the police. He did get baptized. He spent the next few years in prison and was eventually put to death because of his crime. Several people, even in the prison tried to get him spared, but he said he was willing to pay the price for the crime he had committed, even though he had become and completely different person.
Casey, I think that answers some questions. It is a starting point. I'll now more into the actual scriptures.
Hi david.
Quote (david @ Oct. 25 2006,20:55) Hi t8, you write: Quote
The more useful organisations in my opinion are organisations that distribute bibles and fund missionaries.Quote I think you will find that most or at least a big percentage of the money and resources are used in administration and buildings.
Bibles are made in buildings. Coming together to meet at homes in small groups is fine, but try making Bibles at home. Try making tens of millions of them at home.
So those Bibles that you speak of being distributed, etc need to come from somewhere.
It seems that in the long run, if you're going to undergo a massive worldwide distribution, it's much cheaper to make them yourselves then to have a publisher make Bibles.
It is sad though that many organizations force their members to tithe, as you agree. And it's sad that so many religions get rich off their flock and live a life of luxury, covered in rings and jewelry, living in mansions.“You received free, give free.”–Mat 10:8
david
Well if it is economical to buy land and a building to do what it is that God has called someone or people to do, then that is good of course. Bible distributors need to invest in certain things to function.In the first century many churches were in homes that I assume some were owned. The point I am making is that denominations have all these buildings, land, and infrastructure that is expensive to buy and upkeep. Probably most or much of the flocks income goes into keeping this and buying new stuff when there is expansion.
Somehow I don't think Christ had all this in mind when he said upon this rock I will build my Church. I don't even see this kind of activity in the book of Acts. What was important back then was building the Church, not building buildings made with the hands of men. I don't see evidence that the Church in Thyatira owned property under the name Thyatira Ltd, or the Thyatira Witnesses for example.
That said, there are times when a building is profitable for the Kingdom. But as you say, there are some getting rich off the flock. The flock is being fleeced. They take the money from the congregation (even the poor people) and live in luxury. It seems reversed to me. I thought it was about helping the poor, not using the poor, middle income earners, and rich to make yourself rich.
Men have risen up (from among us) and in their own name drawn men unto themselves. The next vain thing to do is to start building with the money they get off the flock. When they have many buildings with big crosses out the front, they then sit back and say we are successful. They may even be mistaken in thinking that God was with them because of the wealth they have accumulated. Their marketing campaigns include competing with other denominations and in the end the world sees something akin to the business world. In all this the gospel may be buried, but we the Church are defined by our message and fruits. We shouldn't be recognized by our buildings, name, or wealth.
Jesus Kingdom is not of this world, but that is hard to see today given what has been done in his name.
The thing is that all these things will pass away, but the Jesus words will remain. We need to say to ourselves what is more important. Things that are temporary or the things that are permanent. If we are to invest in something temporary, it should be to support the permanent and not for it's own sake.
Quote (david @ Oct. 25 2006,16:48) Hi Mercy. Where have you been? T8 has repeatedly shown a hatred toward organization and specifically organizations that he considers to be manmade.
I was once again explaining to t8 that if he lived in the first century and had his attitude, he'd have problems. Organization in itself isn't bad. And yes, back then it was the body of Christ. Today it's the body of Christ. They were called Christians. Today, obviously, the word “Christian” means very little and those who wear it are most likely not representing Christ.
The body of Christ were made of of people that came together, were organized in true worship, and were united, one.
My point to t8 which I don't think you grasped (nor Nick) was that God has always had people. And while T8 likes to mention man-made organizations, the fact that men are in a group does not make it man-made. The early Christians were an organized group. They didn't all just do their own thing.david
Hi david,Yes they didn't/shouldn't do their own thing. That is what I am saying.
Today we have men who form groups with others of their choosing in order to satisfy their itching ears. We have all these groups. Some say they are a way, others say they are the way. Yet they all cannot be right, but they all claim to be right. So yes, the JWs are doing their own thing as are the Catholics, Baptists, Salvation Army, etc.
I am not working toward a new group, nor am I saying that we should all go our separate ways, rather I am saying that I recognize that God's people reside in most of these denominations. I and I hope others, are calling them out of their petty divisions and differences to work as one and to see that we are all brothers and sisters if we have the truth in our heart.
I am hoping that the Church sees and understands what the real Church is and is able to discern between that which is of God and that which is of man. I am not calling people out in my name, nor am I calling them out in the name of another, I am calling them out in the name of Jesus Christ, so that we are united not by the name of our organization, or by a uniform and badge, but that we are united in truth in the name of Jesus Christ.
That is the point. To discover and teach the truth. This is how we can be united. United in love and truth.
To those who have ears to hear, they will encourage and build on the truth. I am in no way encouraging anyone to start up a new group or to go about destroying groups that already exist. It is really about uniting Christians whether they are in a denomination or not, in order that the witness of unity will help those who are lost to believe that Jesus came from God. With the fruits of denominationism, it is hard for the world to see that Jesus came from God. In fact many have concluded that religion is bad, christians included. They say things like “religion causes most of the wars and is guilty of more bloodshed than anything else”.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.The above scripture is what I am teaching.
david, if you think that I am about anti-organizations, then you do not understand my message. My message is for those who already belong to God, to recognize the importance that we should be one. This unity is not about compromising or trying to clip conflicts together and pretend that we are one.
It is about unity in truth and love. There is no compromise here.
Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one and the evil ones works are many. I think that if we were to seek the truth with all our hearts and to learn and teach together, that the enemies divisions would fall away.
Light always overcomes darkness. Darkness is but the lack of light anyway. So it is not about destroying darkness, but shining the light of truth in love.
Quote Probably most or much of the flocks income goes into keeping this and buying new stuff when there is expansion.
I don't know about other faiths, but this does not apply to JW's at all.Quote In the first century many churches were in homes that I assume some were owned. The point I am making is that denominations have all these buildings, land, and infrastructure that is expensive to buy and upkeep. Probably most or much of the flocks income goes into keeping this and buying new stuff when there is expansion. Somehow I don't think Christ had all this in mind when he said upon this rock I will build my Church. I don't even see this kind of activity in the book of Acts. What was important back then was building the Church, not building buildings made with the hands of men. I don't see evidence that the Church in Thyatira owned property under the name Thyatira Ltd, or the Thyatira Witnesses for example.
That said, there are times when a building is profitable for the Kingdom. But as you say, there are some getting rich off the flock. The flock is being fleeced. They take the money from the congregation (even the poor people) and live in luxury. It seems reversed to me. I thought it was about helping the poor, not using the poor, middle income earners, and rich to make yourself rich.
Men have risen up (from among us) and in their own name drawn men unto themselves. The next vain thing to do is to start building with the money they get off the flock. When they have many buildings with big crosses out the front, they then sit back and say we are successful. They may even be mistaken in thinking that God was with them because of the wealth they have accumulated. Their marketing campaigns include competing with other denominations and in the end the world sees something akin to the business world. In all this the gospel may be buried, but we the Church are defined by our message and fruits. We shouldn't be recognized by our buildings, name, or wealth.
Jesus Kingdom is not of this world, but that is hard to see today given what has been done in his name.
The thing is that all these things will pass away, but the Jesus words will remain. We need to say to ourselves what is more important. Things that are temporary or the things that are permanent. If we are to invest in something temporary, it should be to support the permanent and not for it's own sake.
I agree with much of what you say.
“Yet they all cannot be right“
No T8, they can't all be right. I agree. That would be the logical conclusion.Quote I am not working toward a new group, nor am I saying that we should all go our separate ways, rather I am saying that I recognize that God's people reside in most of these denominations. I and I hope others, are calling them out of their petty divisions and differences to work as one and to see that we are all brothers and sisters if we have the truth in our heart.
But when they come out of false religion, do they remain separate from their fellow believers? Or do they form a united faithful body of worshippers?Quote That is the point. To discover and teach the truth. This is how we can be united. United in love and truth. T8, I have a question:
Are the people on this forum united in love and truth? I believe that if they were united in truth, this very forum wouldn't exist. There would be no need of any of these discussions. ONe says one thing. One says another. We all realize that we all think we're right and we all realize that we're all zealous for the truth. But do we all believe the truth? And if not, how are we united in truth?
Quote In fact many have concluded that religion is bad, christians included. They say things like “religion causes most of the wars and is guilty of more bloodshed than anything else”. Religion has been a force behind much bloodshed. Much! And if someone finds themselves in one of these religions that goes to war with other countries, where the priests bless the troops and pray to God for help, while on the other side, the priests pray to God for victory. If you find yourself in such a religion, you do well to ask what sort of fruit is it to kill your fellow believer. And how united in love are you?
Quote david, if you think that I am about anti-organizations, then you do not understand my message. My message is for those who already belong to God, to recognize the importance that we should be one. This unity is not about compromising or trying to clip conflicts together and pretend that we are one. It is about unity in truth and love. There is no compromise here.
True Christianity shouldn't have a need for compromises. They are, as you say, “one.”
Light always overcomes darkness. Darkness is but the lack of light anyway. So it is not about destroying darkness, but shining the light of truth in love.
Well said.
david
Quote Are the people on this forum united in love and truth? I believe that if they were united in truth, this very forum wouldn't exist. There would be no need of any of these discussions. ONe says one thing. One says another. We all realize that we all think we're right and we all realize that we're all zealous for the truth. But do we all believe the truth? And if not, how are we united in truth? I agree if we were united in truth, this very forum may not exist but it could be argued that pauls letters were the “forum” of the day. I believe we all bring different amounts of truth with us and if we're open, we will find more truth by listening to what others say and studying to see if what they say is true.
I'm seeking for truth, and I have some, but not all. None of what I've gotten was from direct revelations from God, most was from study, but some of what I've gotten has been through bits and pieces from others (sometimes combined with error), filtered through, and bound together, with the word.
We are told to rightly divide the truth, to me that seems to indicate some truth will at times be mixed in with errors (as will happen when people are involved). As I've said before I believe that many denominations were started when God gave a truth to a person or group of people and they went off and added their ideas to it or overstate it beyond what it should have been, hence a new denomination is born. But the truth is still there.
Seeking the Truth – Couldn't have said it better myself sir (or madaam). I was actually going ot point out that in Paul's day there was not ONE united group but each Church (or cogregation) was having problems that were specific to that particular group. They all did not have ONE thought or obviously Paul would not have rebuked them for some such as in Corinth who were saying they followed Peter, Paul or Christ.
However I must say though that the comment by t8 and David of “not all could be right” speaks loudly. It must be concluded as David has pointed out a number of times, that there is ONE TRUTH. The difficulty is in finding THAT TRUTH. Is this truth a statement, a theory, an ideology, a Creed, a message of faith held by particular denominations, a Catechism be it Rome's or the Westminster, a tradition, and finally a building or house where people meet? No – it can't be. We live in a postmodern age of eveything being relative and no absolutes. A professor candidly stated, “the only absolute is that there are no absolutes…” I believe there is not one person onthis site that believes that statment. We ALL here believe there is at least ONE absolute. In our case there are many:
ONE GOD, ONE SON, ONE SPIRIT, VIRGIN BIRTH OF YESHUA, GOD YHWH CREATED THE EARTH, RESURRECTION, JUDGMENT…and I am sure there are many more. That leads to obvious conclusions:
Allah is not God, Budda is not God, Satan is not God (though the god of these religions), Joseph did not beget Yeshua and so forth.The complication amongst us all is our theological differences and biases that we each hold. We all have held or do hold biases. To say we do not is fooloish. We are all influenced by where we live and how we grew up. It is a basic truth in psychology and sociological studies in which even the science of Anthropology has likewise concluded (way out of my league on that last group). We must be humble and willing to test what he hold to blindly sometimes. Defending a view on ONE Scripture produces denominations in which a particular people based their views of Scripture around that ONE verse or a few verses – most of the time taken out of context. The denomination then uses this idea as their foundation. Sure, they will hold to ONE God and Jesus being THE way, and Salvation by Grace and so forth but then they add a few little ideas that are so nonessential it is silly but they will focus on this position and use it as their litmus test for truth. So sure you can hold to their like view you may both hold to, but when you diasagree on what they have taken as vital, you are divided and then aweful names are thrown at you. I have been called demonic, a heretic and other ugly names; all from these “Christian” denominations that have a cross over their building and some with Jesus himself on it.
I have yet to find “who” is the closest. Just when I think I find someone who has it, they go out in left field with this one dogma that is a matter of life, death or salvation to them and for all. Once that is spoken and pounded and after further investigation I find that these people are just another sect like all the others – just with a different dogma emphasized. No group of people are perfect and sinful men are full of pride. t8 has well said that man is still trying to build Babel and God divided us. Their can't be though the sin of the Israelites……..”AND EVERY MAN DID WHAT WAS RIGHT IN HIS OWN EYES.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2006,20:06) Hi Oxy,
This is scriptural fruit.Gal 5
“22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
Ephesians 5:9
“(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)”and are of Christ in us
Philippians 1:11
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.Mark 4:28
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.Thus only others can say anything about our fruit.
Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know themMatthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.Luke 6:43
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
I agree to a point Nick, but there is also the fruit of obedience and good works. Man cannot be saved by good works, but good works are one of the fruit following.On my pages you will see a number of examples of when God has told me to do something, and my obedience has born fruit.
I'm sure you know where I am coming from, but this was really in response to David, who according to my understanding of his post, does not know what it is to be born again.
David:
Your post on disfellowhip was very helpful and cleared up a lot of what I was ignorant of and did not know, or was misinformed. I do have one question though in regards to what is deemed a “serious” sin. You mentioned a pedephile who was kicked out for sure and I agree he should be. But, what if he repented? He should serve jail time and justice should prevail. That child will be scarred the rest of their life. Yet, what we see as the most hyanous of sins, God can still forgive. I can think of no other sin like the one you listed more disgusting and hateful than that (along with rape). Yet somehow God can and does forgive such people. Having said that, when a member of the kingdom halls sins and they repent, are they allowed back in? I haven't found any Scriptural support for any sin worthy of being “too” far from God's Grace and being kicked out of the Church. I am not assuming kingdom halls do but I am curious about that.
I have some comments that I was working on before all this info on denominations so I will try and get them here.
Quote The command to “Go” and make disciples is a command from Jesus to his disciples. Notice that part of the command was to teach the new disciples all that Jesus taught. That would include the command to “Go” and make disciples. New disciples would continuously be taught Jesus commands, including this “order to preach.” But if you read Acts where the Church was born, the people were commanded to repent and be baptized receiving the Holy Spirit. How does one receive the Holy Spirit and why must one go through so many steps to become baptized. Upon believing the immediate response is baptism….then discipleship comes after one has been born from above or born again – John 3:3-5. Jesus strictly stated in no uncertain terms that the ENTRY into the KINGDOM (I am assuming the Kingdom you are preaching?)is being born again – first and foremost.
So that's reason number 1. We love Jehovah God and so obey his commands.
Quote I have stated on more than one occasion that the Orthodox Jewish believers would agree with you that they worship Jehovah – Yahweh God. It is rarely taught when a witness comes over that they speak of following Jesus. Jesus is bypassed too often. I am not saying they do not ALWAYS speak of Jehovah only and not mentioning His Son but it seems that His Son is put on a back-burner when the opposite is true all through the NT. The common thread that goes from Genesis in the beginning chapters to the end of the Apocalypse (Revelation) is Jesus.
It's good news. The greatest news.
Quote What is this news? Is it to not celebrate Resurrection Sunday (The term Easter is derived from paganism) or Christmas? Is it to prove that Jesus was previously an Archangel named Michael? Is it to try and prove Jesus is not God? Is it to place modern Christianity in terms of error or false religion? Is it to emphasize how Satan is the god of this system? Is it to dogmatically preach 144,000 only will be in heaven? I am not trying to attack or be sarcastic so do not receive my questions in offense. What I am getting at is that when I speak with witnesses I very seldom and sometimes never hear the “good new of the coming kingdom on earth.” The other teachings tantamount to JW literature and doctrine I just mentioned seem to be what the witnesses wish to get across.
Notice Paul's words:
ACTS 20:26-27
“Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, for I have not held back from telling YOU all the counsel of God.” (Compare 1 Tim 4:16)Paul was not bloodguilty. Why?
ACTS 20:20-21
“while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house. But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.”Notice the way Paul reasoned:
1 CORINTHIANS 9:23
“But I do all things for the sake of the good news, that I may become a sharer of it with [others].”1 CORINTHIANS 9:16
“If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, WOE IS ME IF I DID NOT DECLARE THE GOOD NEWS!”And now Debra, notice Paul's words:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:1
“Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ.”Quote The “good news” Paul preached was Christ and Him crucified. Notice what he says to the Corinthians was of “FIRST IMPORTANCE” in 1 Corinthians 15.
Our primary purpose for being there is to bring them good news. How they react to that is up to them. For those that don't listen, we feel it is sort of like a warning work.
We do not force people to convert as some religions have done in the past.
Quote Do you perceive people that do not “join” you as a member of the JW congregation though as being warned? In essence then you are actually asking them to join the kingdom hall. If like Debra asked you earlier, a person believes your message but doesn’t join the witnesses and baptized as a witness then they are considered as rebelling and “warned” as you say.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting it doesn't matter where you get baptized.
Quote What is permissable?
When we come across someone who tells us they've been born again, (and there are many such people) it usually means that they believe they'll someday be with Christ in heaven.
Quote I'd like to say this and say it loudly and clearly. Not everyone who thinks they are born again are.
[/I]Is that just assumed that is what they mean or have you actually asked them to explain how they are born again and what they mean by being born again.There are many tares out in the wheat field that will be uprooted in the harvest and cast into the fire
PS: You have posted the “house” versus ample amount of times. No one is disagreeing that going from house to house is an option. I think it is just that we think it is not THE option. We live in 2006 termed “The Information Age” and the means of travel would boggle the minds of men a mere century ago. We have text messaging, e-mail, automobiles, www, and tons of other means of spreading the Good News.
Most of what my reply was is in the quote boxes. I have no idea what I am doing wrong. I am putting the QUOTE box in the front and then in the back?
When you press the quote button, make sure that anything you paste in next goes after that. Also, I don't think you can go into the middle of text you've already typed and add quotes later. That tends to mess me up. It works for me only when I just press the quote, or bold or whatever and then type or paste and then press the quote again and leave it alone.
I'm not sure what you're doing wrong.david
HI Casey,
Quote “Having said that, when a member of the kingdom halls sins and they repent, are they allowed back in? I haven't found any Scriptural support for any sin worthy of being “too” far from God's Grace and being kicked out of the Church. I am not assuming kingdom halls do but I am curious about that.” Well, sinning against the holy spirit, there is no forgiveness for that. But I feel that's another subject.
MATTHEW 12:32
“For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.”
But this is not really what we're talking about.Although not stated in the Bible (and I haven't even heard this in any of our publications) but when a person commits child abuse, they may not ever hold a position of responsibility in our organization. Yes, they may be allowed back into our organization and be called a brother and everything else. But commit child abuse and you will not be an elder ever. This was told to me by an elder.
So in answer to your question, if someone repents, of course they are allowed back in.Quote “Your post on disfellowhip was very helpful and cleared up a lot of what I was ignorant of and did not know, or was misinformed.” I'm glad I helped. Before going into or even reading what you wrote next, I'd like to actually cover what the scriptures say about expelling ones from the congregation.
Let's start with the Israelites and get a taste on what God's thoughts are.
First, let me say that the congregation must remain clean and maintain God’s favor in order to be used by him and to represent him. Otherwise, God would expel or cut off the entire congregation.
1 CORINTHIANS 5:5-6
“YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. YOUR [cause for] boasting is not fine. Do YOU not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump?”
(I think we have a different view on this than most, but I’ll leave that for now.)Something I remembered you saying, on page 35, Casey was this, regarding the 7 churches of revelation,
Quote “I must emphasize that these bodies made up of humans who make mistakes were at times being admonished for adhering to “strange” or “new” ideas that Jesus not the Apostles passed down. They were not dis-fellowshipped or “kicked out”. They were admonished to turn again to the true gospel given and at other times even in the same letter, were encouraged to continue on. . . .The only time one was dis-fellowshipped was indeed for sin and sin ONLY.”
I just feel like pointing this out, about the congregation as a whole:
REVELATION 2:5
““‘Therefore remember from what you have fallen, and repent and do the former deeds. If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”
Unless they repented, their lampstand would be removed. This would doubtless mean that they would no longer be used to shed the light of truth in that area, but that their light would go out. (Compare Mat 6:22,23)I think we should look at the Law, just to have an understanding of God and how he views expelling ones. I think this is important an not to be passed over.
Under the Mosaic law, for serious or deliberate violations of God’s law given through Moses a person could be cut off, that is, put to death.
LEVITICUS 7:27
“Any soul who eats any blood, that soul must be cut off from his people.’””
NUMBERS 15:30-31
““‘But the soul that does something deliberately, whether he is a native or an alien resident, he speaking abusively of Jehovah, in that case that soul must be cut off from among his people. Because it is Jehovah’s word that he has despised and his commandment that he has broken, that soul should be cut off without fail. His own error is upon him.’””Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying this penalty.
DEUTERONOMY 13:12-18
““In case you hear it said in one of your cities, which Jehovah your God is giving you to dwell there, ‘Good-for-nothing men have gone out from your midst that they may try to turn away the inhabitants of their city, saying: “Let us go and serve other gods,” whom you have not known,’ you must also search and investigate and inquire thoroughly; and if the thing is established as the truth, this detestable thing has been done in your midst, you should without fail strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword. Devote it and everything that is in it, and its domestic animals, to destruction at the edge of the sword. And all its spoil you should collect into the middle of its public square, and you must burn in the fire the city and all its spoil as a whole offering to Jehovah your God, and it must become a heap of ruins to time indefinite. It should never be rebuilt. And nothing at all should stick to your hand of the thing made sacred by ban, in order that Jehovah may turn from his burning anger and may indeed give you mercy and he may certainly show you mercy and multiply you, just as he has sworn to your forefathers. For you should listen to the voice of Jehovah your God by keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, so as to do what is right in the eyes of Jehovah your God.”
LEVITICUS 20:10
““‘Now a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife is one who commits adultery with the wife of his fellowman. He should be put to death without fail, the adulterer and the adulteress as well.”
LEVITICUS 17:14
“For the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood by the soul in it. Consequently I said to the sons of Israel: “YOU must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh, because the soul of every sort of flesh is its blood. Anyone eating it will be cut off.””
NUMBERS 35:31
“And YOU must take no ransom for the soul of a murderer who is deserving to die, for without fail he should be put to death.”
Here’s something worthy of note, I think: Under the Law, for the penalty of cutting off to be carried out, evidence had to be established at the mouth of at least two witnesses.
DEUTERONOMY 19:15
““No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin, in the case of any sin that he may commit. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.”
These witnesses were required to be the first to stone the guilty one.
DEUTERONOMY 17:7
“The hand of the witnesses first of all should come upon him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people afterward; and you must clear out what is bad from your midst.”
This would demonstrate their zeal for God’s law and the purity of the congregation of Israel and would also be a deterrent to false, careless, or hasty testimony.* * *
The Sanhedrin and synagogues.
During Jesus’ earthly ministry the synagogues served as courts for trying violators of Jewish law. The Sanhedrin was the highest court. Under Roman rule the Jews did not have the latitude of authority that they had enjoyed under theocratic
government. Even when the Sanhedrin judged someone deserving of death, they could not always administer the death penalty, because of restrictions by the Romans. The Jewish synagogues had a system of excommunication, or disfellowshipping, that had three steps or three names.
–The first step was the penalty of nid·duý, which was for a relatively short time, initially only 30 days. A person under this penalty was prohibited from enjoying certain privileges. He could go to the temple, but there he was restricted in certain ways, and all besides his own family were commanded to stay at a distance of 4 cubits (c. 2 m; 6 ft) from him.
–The second step was chérem, meaning something devoted to God or banned. This was a more severe judgment. The offender could not teach or be taught in the company of others, nor could he perform any commercial transactions beyond purchasing the necessities of life. However, he was not altogether cast out of the Jewish organization, and there was a chance for him to come back.
–Finally, there was sham·mat·ta’́, an entire cutting off from the congregation. Some believe the last two forms of excommunication were undistinguishable from each other.
One who was cast out as wicked, cut off entirely, would be considered worthy of death, though the Jews might not have the authority to execute such a one. Nevertheless, the form of cutting off they did employ was a very powerful weapon in the Jewish community.
Interestingly, Jesus foretold that his followers would be expelled from the synagogues. (Joh 16:2) Fear of being expelled, kept some of the Jews, even the rulers, from confessing Jesus. (Joh 9:22) An example of such action by the synagogue was the case of the healed blind man who spoke favorably of Jesus.—Joh 9:34.* * *
During the time of his earthly ministry, Jesus gave instructions as to the procedure to follow if a serious sin was committed against a person and yet the sin was of such a nature that, if properly settled, it did not need to involve the Jewish congregation.
MATTHEW 18:15-17
““Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.”
He encouraged earnest effort to help the wrongdoer, while also safeguarding that congregation against persistent sinners.
The only congregation of God in existence then was the congregation of Israel. ‘Speaking to the congregation’ did not mean that the entire nation or even all the Jews in a given community sat in judgment on the offender. There were older men of the Jews that were charged with this responsibility.
MATTHEW 5:22
“However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·heńna.”
Offenders who refused to listen even to these responsible ones were to be viewed “just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector,” association with whom was shunned by the Jews.
ACTS 10:28
“and he said to them: “YOU well know how unlawful it is for a Jew to join himself to or approach a man of another race; and yet God has shown me I should call no man defiled or unclean.”The Christian Congregation.
Based on the principles of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Greek Scriptures by command and precedent authorize expulsion, or disfellowshipping, from the Christian congregation.
By exercising this God-given authority, the congregation keeps itself clean and in good standing before God. The apostle Paul, with the authority vested in him, ordered the expulsion certain ones.1 CORINTHIANS 5:5
“YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.”
1 CORINTHIANS 5:11
“But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.”
1 CORINTHIANS 5:13
“while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.””He also exercised disfellowshipping authority against Hymenaeus and Alexander.
1 TIMOTHY 1:19-20
“holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith. Hy·me·naéus and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.”
Diotrephes, however, was apparently trying to exercise disfellowshipping action wrongly.3 JOHN 9-10
“I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·ot́re·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.”Some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation.
1 CORINTHIANS 5:9-13
“In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.””
1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-10
“What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.”
TITUS 3:10-11
“As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.”
REVELATION 21:8
“But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.””
Mercifully, one promoting a sect is warned a first and a second time before such disfellowshipping action is taken against him.In the Christian congregation, the principle enunciated in the Law applies, namely, that two or three witnesses must establish evidence against the accused one.
1 TIMOTHY 5:19
“Do not admit an accusation against an older man, except only on the evidence of two or three witnesses.”Those who have been convicted of a practice of sin are reproved Scripturally before the “onlookers,” for example, th
ose who testified concerning the sinful conduct, so that they too may all have a healthy fear of such sin.
1 TIMOTHY 5:20
“Reprove before all onlookers persons who practice sin, that the rest also may have fear.”
The Christian congregation is also admonished by Scripture to stop socializing with those who are disorderly and not walking correctly but who are not deemed deserving of complete expulsion. Paul wrote the Thessalonian congregation concerning such:
2 THESSALONIANS 3:6
“Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us.”
2 THESSALONIANS 3:11
“For we hear certain ones are walking disorderly among YOU, not working at all but meddling with what does not concern them.”
2 THESSALONIANS 3:13-15
“For YOUR part, brothers, do not give up in doing right. But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.”However, regarding any who were Christians but later repudiated the Christian congregation or were expelled from it, the apostle Paul commanded: “Quit mixing in company with” such a one; and the apostle John wrote: “Never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”—1Co 5:11; 2Jo 9, 10.
Those who have been expelled may be received back into the congregation if they manifest sincere repentance.
2 CORINTHIANS 2:5-8
“Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him.”
This also is a protection to the congregation, preventing it from being overreached by Satan in swinging from condoning wrongdoing to the other extreme, becoming harsh and unforgiving.
CORINTHIANS 2:10-11
“Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ’s sight; that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.”
Of course, more could be said. But I think the main scriptures that discuss these things is a good place to start.david
Quote It is rarely taught when a witness comes over that they speak of following Jesus. Jesus is bypassed too often. I am not saying they do not ALWAYS speak of Jehovah only and not mentioning His Son but it seems that His Son is put on a back-burner when the opposite is true all through the NT. The common thread that goes from Genesis in the beginning chapters to the end of the Apocalypse (Revelation) is Jesus.
Hi Casey. Jesus, as the seed, as God's designated king of that kingdom is the thread that runs through the Bible. I've had someone say something similar before on this site–that we speak of Jehovah and never Jesus. (This is of course false) I went through the Bible and counted all the times God's name is mentioned. I counted all the times Jesus name is mentioned. If I remember correctly, and I may not, it was like a 8:1 or 9:1 ratio. It was something like that. Yet, when you check our publications, and add up all the times “Jehovah” and “jesus” are mentioned, you'll see that it a 2:1 ratio. The name Jehovah is mentioned just slightly more than twice as much as Jesus in our publications. So, if one were to say we are out of sink with the Bible, it would have to be that we mention Jesus too much, or that we don't mention Jehovah enough. Maybe it's just me, but I feel we speak of Jesus almost, not as much, but just about as much as Jehovah. I'd also say that the average JW knows and quotes from the Greek scriptures just slightly more than the Hebrew.
Perhaps the reason we speak of Jehovah more is that the Bible does or perhaps it is because this is what Jesus did. He didn't ascribe glory to himself, but made his fathers name known. Now, since we are to imitate Jesus, the “faithful witness,” or the “faithful and true witness,” we do the same.
And it may also be that people have heard of Jesus. A lot of the people we go to think Jesus is God. A lot of the people we come in contact with swear “Jesus” is God's name. So, we may spend some time pointing certain things out.Quote But if you read Acts where the Church was born, the people were commanded to repent and be baptized receiving the Holy Spirit. How does one receive the Holy Spirit and why must one go through so many steps to become baptized. Upon believing the immediate response is baptism….then discipleship comes after one has been born from above or born again – John 3:3-5. Jesus strictly stated in no uncertain terms that the ENTRY into the KINGDOM (I am assuming the Kingdom you are preaching?)is being born again – first and foremost.
I believe the quote you are speaking about is me explaining to Debra why we go to people everywhere and preach the good news of the kingdom. I'm not sure why you're saying what you're saying or what point you're trying to make.
I'm not sure if baptism is the immediate responce. Sure there was the Eunich, but he already had a knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures no doubt and only needed certain things filled in. We could discuss this more.Your quotes throw me off.
Quote What is this news? Is it to not celebrate Resurrection Sunday (The term Easter is derived from paganism) or Christmas? Is it to prove that Jesus was previously an Archangel named Michael? Is it to try and prove Jesus is not God? Is it to place modern Christianity in terms of error or false religion? Is it to emphasize how Satan is the god of this system? Is it to dogmatically preach 144,000 only will be in heaven? I am not trying to attack or be sarcastic so do not receive my questions in offense. What I am getting at is that when I speak with witnesses I very seldom and sometimes never hear the “good new of the coming kingdom on earth.” The other teachings tantamount to JW literature and doctrine I just mentioned seem to be what the witnesses wish to get across.
When we go to people, we often begin by asking a thought provoking question. We often point out certain sad realities that we live in. We then point to a scripture, and show them the happy hope set out in the Bible, that God has set up a kingdom to be ruled by a righteous king and his associate rulers who will judge and reign in righteousness. Sin will be removed, death gone, a ressurection, etc. This kingdom will bring an end to all ineffective corrupt human governmentes, etc.
This is what we always PLAN to speak about, but when we come across certain ones who have questions or who want to argue or who want to attack JW's or who think they know the Bible and want to point out what they believe are errors or when we come across someone who says: “You don't believe in Jesus,” etc, then we get sidetracked. True.Quote PS: You have posted the “house” verses ample amount of times. No one is disagreeing that going from house to house is an option. I think it is just that we think it is not THE option. We live in 2006 termed “The Information Age” and the means of travel would boggle the minds of men a mere century ago. We have text messaging, e-mail, automobiles, www, and tons of other means of spreading the Good News. Yes we do. But isn't it interesting that Jesus wanted his followers to speak to people personally. How much more effective that was.
You know, we have a website: http://www.watchtower.org.
Part of the thing is, living in this part of the world, we tend not to see the whole picture or to see things as they really are. We see the whole world the way things are around us. Everyone has email. Everyone the internet. Everyone a car.Such is hardly the case.
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached IN ALL THE INHABITED EARTH for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”DAVID
Quote (david @ Oct. 25 2006,19:33) When you press the quote button, make sure that anything you paste in next goes after that. Also, I don't think you can go into the middle of text you've already typed and add quotes later. That tends to mess me up. It works for me only when I just press the quote, or bold or whatever and then type or paste and then press the quote again and leave it alone.
I'm not sure what you're doing wrong.david
Casey S Smith 29,
Your probably getting out of sync.One other thing that will help you keep it straight is when you hit the button to do; a quote, make it bold, etc. an asterisk will appear in the button and it will stay there until you complete what you want quoted, bold, etc. then hitting the button the second time will turn it off and the asterisk will disappear.
Another way to tell is the ending has a slash [ / ] within the brackets the start doesn't.
David is right it will only add to the end but you can cut and paste within the beginning to end area.
Hope this helps
Ok guys let's try this again. I mean getting this darn quoting thing down. I feel like a big dork. It is funny the complicated things one can accomplish but the basics is what gets in the way.
David I must first say kuddos to the response. I am pleased on how our dialouge has been going. Your recent posts are very informative and set some matter straight. I have to say when one has an “axe to grind” with the witnesses, more times than not it is all heresay and coming from one who was disfellowshipped. I guess I should be cautious in believing things that I was not there to see and hear and consider all the circumstances around the cases. I found a site on the net that was so rediculous in its treatment of JW's that I could not grasp how people bought in to the sites attacks. One who has any sense of logic and common sense should be able to see right through the tactics they employ. Sadly it isn't the case. People buy into this junk without researching it first. The post on the main page says, “The NWT 1666 pages! I could not believe it but I checked and there are 1666 pages!” I had to laugh. This was before I even found this forum. But just to humor myself I checked and found the accusation false. There are 1662 or something to that effect. So not only was this claim unfounded but it was in error! How gullible we men of flesh are sometimes! Before I have had these discussions with you some of the propoganda I believed. Here are some of the half trues and sometimes blatant lies being tosses around out there.
The JW's have their own Bible.
They don't believe in hell fire.
They don't believe in heaven.
They only believe 144,000 will spend eternity with God on earth.
They don't believe Christ died for your sins.
From and ex witness I heard, “They never even would mention Jesus”
Jehovah isn't even God's Name.
They are heretics.
They are all going to hell.
…and so on and so on . If I could list or even remember everything that I have heard about you guys from my childhood on you would laugh. I now laugh.
I remember my best friend when he was a witness we would walk home from school (about 3rd to 5th grade) and argue back and forth, “There is no hell, there is a hell, there is no hell, there is a hell…” Neither of us having anything to back it up with but our emotionally driven ignorance…dumb kids 
I miss those days sometimes. Now of course most people can point out the inconsistencies in the aboce list. You are said to not believe that Jesus died for your sins but then they say that you believe Jesus died on a stake. How one can correlate such statements is beyond me. Yes, you do have your own transaltion. But so do others. I have found this debate intriguing. You say we are translating fro a Trinitarian perspective. We say you are transalting from a bias JW perspective. Who is right I have yet to conclude. That is not the topic here. Maybe a later time? You do not believe in hell – true. But you do believe in destruction and so do I now with a defense to back it up. Jehovah is a Name for God (Yahweh in Hebrew). You do believe in a heaven. 144,000 are not the only ones going to spend eternity with God. You do mention Jesus. As I said, they are half truths with no backing up by most who make such false statements. One can say some of these things but not further explain why this is so. Other times they are lies as you can see. Whether I agree with your doctrine is another subject but for now I think all of us witnesses should know what is actually taught and not what the “party line” is saying.
I am glad you cleared up some misunderstandings I have had before. Regarding disfellowshipping from the verses you listed (which I was very familiar with) we are in agreement. I was simply not informed of the actual reasons that led to the steps and process administered. The strange thing is I now think the witnesses are the only group that follows these admonishments from Paul. Most of us non-witnesses brush over these verses and ignore them, I did. Now I must reconsider what I believe and what action I will take in applying them. Thank You David
Quote Interestingly, Jesus foretold that his followers would be expelled from the synagogues. (Joh 16:2) Fear of being expelled, kept some of the Jews, even the rulers, from confessing Jesus. (Joh 9:22) An example of such action by the synagogue was the case of the healed blind man who spoke favorably of Jesus.—Joh 9:34. I never understood this verse. In Bible college this verse has never been explained to me. Professors did mention they believe the “Church” should be disciplining their members but these words were not explained. From this explanation it makes so much more sense. As well as this one:
Quote The only congregation of God in existence then was the congregation of Israel. ‘Speaking to the congregation’ did not mean that the entire nation or even all the Jews in a given community sat in judgment on the offender. There were older men of the Jews that were charged with this responsibility.
MATTHEW 5:22
“However, I say to YOU that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge•heńna.”This one as well:
Quote Diotrephes, however, was apparently trying to exercise disfellowshipping action wrongly. 3 JOHN 9-10
“I wrote something to the congregation, but Di•ot́re•phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.”Quote Some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation. What convicts me hence bothers me is I have been involved in such activities. I have since repented and of course do not live and practice such things but in regards to disfelloshipping, what if some of the above listed is something that the w
itnesses is battleing with and needs strengthinged by your elders and fellow member? Such as drunkeness? Is he disfellowshipped until he repents? Alcoholism isn't a mere sin that one can just stop doing. It takes sometimes medical/professional help – counseling to overcome. I know some who put it down and never picked it up, others have a hard time shaking it.Quote I went through the Bible and counted all the times God's name is mentioned. I counted all the times Jesus name is mentioned. This is very admirable of you. I started to hilight in your NWT all the times of I saw Jehovah but it was a task I did not evaluate first. I will attempt it again some other time though.
Quote Yet, when you check our publications, and add up all the times “Jehovah” and “jesus” are mentioned, you'll see that it a 2:1 ratio. Yeah I started to do this in your latest publication but I got just a few pages into it and realized they were pretty much tied so I stopped.
Quote I'd also say that the average JW knows and quotes from the Greek scriptures just slightly more than the Hebrew. This could be debatted.
Quote Yes we do. But isn't it interesting that Jesus wanted his followers to speak to people personally. How much more effective that was. Never looked at it that way. Good perspective.
I future discussions should start with the Kingdom message and exactly what Jesus meant that one HAD TO BE BORN FROM ABOVE and how those two are congruous.
Baptism would likewise be a nice future discussion.
Quote Ok guys let's try this again. I mean getting this darn quoting thing down. I feel like a big dork.
I think we all feel that way when we tried it for the first time. I know I did.I have to say when one has an “axe to grind” with the witnesses, more times than not it is all heresay and coming from one who was disfellowshipped.
I agree. You know, we believe this was somewhat fortold. These would start to ‘beat their fellow slaves’ in a verbal way, opposing them and their work of proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom. (Mat 24:48-51)I guess I should be cautious in believing things that I was not there to see and hear and consider all the circumstances around the cases. I found a site on the net that was so rediculous in its treatment of JW's that I could not grasp how people bought in to the sites attacks. One who has any sense of logic and common sense should be able to see right through the tactics they employ. Sadly it isn't the case.
The thing is, a lot of people, 99% of people I would say who go to those sites go there for a specific purpose–to find dirt or anything that can make them feel better about their believe that JW's are just wrong. And they find what they are looking for. Whether it's true or not is secondary.
But just to humor myself I checked and found the accusation false. There are 1662 or something to that effect. So not only was this claim unfounded but it was in error!
hmmm. I just checked mine out of curiosity. It has 1659 pages. I guess it depends if you have one with an index, etc.Before I have had these discussions with you some of the propoganda I believed.
Well I'm glad I straightend out some things.You say we are translating fro a Trinitarian perspective. We say you are transalting from a bias JW perspective. Who is right I have yet to conclude. That is not the topic here.
Well, it should be stated that we have made some changes to our beliefs in the past. If we had an agenda and made a Bible to back it up, why would we change beliefs? Just to throw people off? For example, with regard to worshipping Jesus, something I've recently been discussing in the Jesus-trinity thread, the first edition of the Bible (and yes, we've had updated editions LIKE MOST OTHER BIBLES) had one reference to Jesus and the word “worship” was used with reference to him. In all other places, “obeisance” was used. Now think: If we had an agenda, some sort of conspiracy to not worship Jesus, why would the word “worship” have ever been in that Bible? It could just as easily have been translated “obeisance.” But on later more indept thinking and reasoning on the scriptures, it became obvious by Jesus own words that worship should be directed towards only his Father. So, in a later edition a change was made to that word. Now, some look at that change and argue that we change the Bible to fit what we believe. WRONG. If we believed that, then that word would never have been there. We changed it because the word “obeisance” fits the context of the entire Bible and really that word could go either way. But the Bible as a whole makes it clear that “obeisance” is the right word. So the change. (As well, I think that about 80 or 90 years ago, there are one or two references to worshipping Jesus in our literature.)
Now, this and other examples make it clear that we let the Bible dictate what we believe and NOT the other way around. We have changed our beliefs if the Bible shows them to be wrong.[/QUOTE]You do not believe in hell – true. But you do believe in destruction and so do I now with a defense to back it up.
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It bothers me when people say we don't believe in “hell” (Hebrew: Sheol, Gk, Hades) Sheol and Hades are in the Bible and we believe strongly that this place or condition exists. But the pagan teaching of hellfire, we do not believe. Fire is a symbol of destruction, as all the world's furnaces testify to. And apparently on this we agree.As I said, they are half truths with no backing up by most who make such false statements.
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The outright lies are easy to see through. It's when people take something that has some place in reality and truth and twist it, make it a half truth. These are troubling to some and harder to defend.I am glad you cleared up some misunderstandings I have had before. Regarding disfellowshipping from the verses you listed (which I was very familiar with) we are in agreement. I was simply not informed of the actual reasons that led to the steps and process administered.
I completely understand. You have to know that most of the stories that make the news come from disgrunteled people who have been removed from among JW's and therefore won't have nice things to say or necessarily speak any truth.The strange thing is I now think the witnesses are the only group that follows these admonishments from Paul.
Yeah, I really don't think too many groups follow this at all.
Most of us non-witnesses brush over these verses and ignore them, I did. Now I must reconsider what I believe and what action I will take in applying them. Thank You David
No problem. Your welcome. They're not verses that often apply directly to us. They only apply when we go off course badly and then we may have a tendancy to want to ignore them.
in regards to disfelloshipping, what if some of the above listed is something that the witnesses is battleing with and needs strengthinged by your elders and fellow member? Such as drunkeness? Is he disfellowshipped until he repents?
Not at all. If he realizes he has a problem and goes to the elders and seeks help, they will help him, lovingly. They will offer councel, scriptures, prayer and encouragment. They will help him through it.
But, if for example, a brother falls into drunkeness and is found getting into a situation where the police is involved for example or something happens that becomes commonly known, especially among the congregation, then some sort of disiplinary action will be taken. The Bible speaks of “reproof” as well as expelling. Because this is all about keeping the congregation clean and protecting it, we don't want drunkeness to become something that is viewed as acceptable. So public reproof may happen, if this has become known to the congregation. If not, private reproof and loving help.
But, if that brother falls into drunkeness and someone else goes to him and tries to help him and he refuses to listen and then they try again with another person, as the Bible says and he refuses to listen and continues in that course, this is a different situation. It's all about heart and repentance. If it has somehow become a way of life for him, something he can't give up or doesn't seem to want to, this is a problem. The congregation must remain clean to be acceptable. If he doesn't repent and change, he's expelled.
But I say again, even if he is expelled, if he sobers up and changes his attitude and truly repents and shows that he has changed his course, then he will be allowed back into the congregation.
I should also say that people who are disfellowshipped are allow
to come to meetings. I don't think legally you can stop anyone from entering a public building. And it's a fine thing for them to come. This is part of what shows they want back and are repentant. But we don't speak with them. They don't share in commenting or anything like that.Alcoholism isn't a mere sin that one can just stop doing. It takes sometimes medical/professional help – counseling to overcome. I know some who put it down and never picked it up, others have a hard time shaking it.
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Yeah. It is hard. That's why it is repeatedly encouraged that if we have a problem to go for help soon, to a brother or an overseer.This is very admirable of you. I started to hilight in your NWT all the times of I saw Jehovah but it was a task I did not evaluate first. I will attempt it again some other time though.
Quote You would be highlighting about 7000 times. I didn't actually count them. I used the watchtower library on cd-rom and it counted them for me in about 1 second.
This could be debatted.
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It could be debated. But I don't see the point as I am a JW and I would say I quote from the Greek slightly more and I would say everyone I know who are JW's also do this. Just slightly more. Maybe half. I don't know.I future discussions should start with the Kingdom message and exactly what Jesus meant that one HAD TO BE BORN FROM ABOVE and how those two are congruous.
Ok. We'll leave the “resurrection of the unrighteous” for the time being.
I'd like to direct you to the “kingdom of God” thread I started. Several pages into it, we discuss being born again. I think that may help you.david
I wasn't doing that to make you feel better Casy, but I hope it did. It will probably confuse you as well.
david
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA6G1hqayiM
This is a quick build of a kingdom hall in time lapse. I post this only because we had been talking about it a few days ago.
david.
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