Jehovah&#39;s Witness Church

Participant

David! Good to hear we can talk again sir. I am not quite sure what exactly happened with the quotes. I did notice it at the beginning and tried to prevent it from happening but it obviously didn't work. I will try to keep from quoting and just look what you wrote and comment or questions.

So, with that said I will begin. Actually before I begin let me make some statements that will leave me vulnerable but as I have grown in the knowledge of God and just mature in growing up period, I realized that it didn't matter what people thought of me but only what God thinks of me. So, if I am attacked by someone who really is against the witnesses (hatefully) and accused of “playing both sides” then so be it, who cares.

Going from door to door no doubt is the cause or root of the phenomenal success in “recruiting” if you will, fellow witnesses. I heard a sermon years ago and the speaker referenced the books of Moses in how the message of the greatness of God should start with the Israelites “neighbor” and that sermon sparked a desire in me to go to my neighbors which I did somewhat but not to the extent the witnesses do. I commend the witnesses for taking upon themselves the responsibility of the command of Yeshua to “go out”. We Protestants (and I have even seen apologetics of Islam) could learn from you. For now I will speak of the good things of the witnesses. Below I will elaborate on what some of us wonder – like what questioned Debra proposed.

The move to question the traditional doctrine of hell is noteworthy of a more Biblically sound move also. I find it odd that many Evangelical scholars of this day are taking this doctrine seriously on an intellectual and scholastic thesis, when just twenty years ago the thought was unheard of with very few proponents arguing for change and re-evaluation of this horrible doctrine (eternal hell fire torturing trillions of people eternally).

The strong bond and organization is something to be applauded as well. It disturbs me when I see the plethora of denominations that have become reformed, reformed, reformed – Reformers. No doubt the Roman Church should have been rebuked and scolded for teachings that kept people poor and under bondage of Luther's time that Luther vigorously opposed – specifically indulgences. Only I don't believe Luther would be saddened of the outcome of it. I don't think he had any inclination that people would misinterpret his stance against Rome and go so far away that they would divide and divide and divide and argue and kill other Christians for not believing as they do. It did happen in his day but not nearly to the extent of later times. Having said that the closeness of the JW's can be seen as a very good thing. It is good when brothers worship in harmony and in one accord. To what end I will, like I said, I elaborate below.

Now let me elaborate some:

1)The message of method of bringing the message is successful. Though, if you are in error and going forth with a false gospel, the ramifications are eternally detrimental and sending billions of people to eternal death and destruction. I would be reluctant and hesitant to be bringing such a message without testing it and seeing if it lines up with Scripture, which you know – I do not think it does.
2)The doctrine of annihilation, that death is same with man and beast in the common grave waiting for the resurrection (people, though animals will be in eternity so it is plausible our pets will be with us) is commendable. There are minor differences though. From what I have gathered upon reading JW literature, you view that the unrighteous are given a second chance to “obey” God. Following the law will never justify anyone (Romans 3:24; Hebrews 9) or “keep” anyone from destruction. There are no Biblical references that during the millennium (which is a doctrine I do not adhere to or believe, but for the sake of the discussion I will defend from the Dispensational – or Historic Pre-millennial hermeneutical view of Scripture) mankind will be a participant of those in Christ prior to the millennium. Scripture distinguishes between these individuals post Christ’s reign and pre-Christ’s reign (on Earth). Then there is a third group according to witness doctrine. These are those who will never be resurrected for whatever reason and are assigned to the second death. In Daniel 12, the Psalms, and a majority of Jesus’ teachings, the righteous (those who placed their faith in Christ and in His death-resurrection in God’s electing Grace Romans 9-11) will me resurrected unto Glory (1 John; 1 Corinthians 15, I Thessalonians 4) and the unrighteous will be judged according to their deeds by the law having not placed their faith in Yeshua the Messiah by which to be judged. Then Jesus says and John reiterates in Revelation they will weep and gnash their teeth out of either the sadness of their coming doom, or because of the Glory and Fire of the Glory that inhabits the heavens in which Isaiah truly says, “who can stand in His presence?”. Then the unrighteous will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death and annihilated. There are differences of opinions whether some will suffer worse than others upon judgment but that is neither here nor there in this discussion. I find no premise by which to justify the claim of the unrighteous given another chance. If that be the case then those whom you visit could just continue in their lost state of hedonism and sin for they will have the same benefits of JW’s and be judged in the millennium by works and obedience for the JW teaching states that in the millennium the JW’s are not guaranteed eternity if they are disobedient.

3)In regards to the plethora of denominations – from my personal journey of experience and studies I have found that God keeps much wisdom and knowledge from men (Deut 29:29). God has given us enough “information” if you will to provide for us the wonderful and fearful Holiness and passion in His love for man so we may Glorify Him in His patience and steadfastness. There are so many wonderful teachings, stories and admonishments that the list would be in vain if I attempted to mention here. Yet, God in His transcendence and immanence is far beyond are finite minds that at best we humans are grasping for straws. It is indeed a cliché that is founded in truth and fact- God has chased us and caught us and now we are chasing after Him. Just when we think we have grabbed a hold of Him much like Jacob thought he could, YHWH/Yeshua escapes our attempt and crushes/breaks the box we tried to keep Him in. So with that said I have found that the denominations are simply the outflow if that chase. Some of us have settled with partial truths and formed creeds and messages of faith. Some of us are on a journey of no end in this lifetime to find more of Him not being content with a teaching that may be true but is much deeper than a congregation can define.

Than you for your testimony, I found it intriguing. I commend you for stepping out their and standing for something you believe in. You find few who are willing to go against the flow and follow God even if it is at the cost of their very lives and in your case, the cost of family and friends. I am sure you cried many a night and asked God “Why?” I have done that more times than I can count so I empathize. My best friend growing up was closer than a brother and would have taken a bullet for me. Only when I started walking with Christ he was ashamed of me and embarrassed – disowning me. I felt like David who had Jonathan ripped away from him. I still miss him and pray for his salvation. I forgive him; anyway enough of that ooey gooey mushy depressing mess. When I started out in my diapers of thinking I knew it all about God years ago I slowly learned a fact that many are not willing to admit to. They say we view Scripture from a preconceived theological lense – bias perspectives. My minor is in psychology so they correlate in this context. People
relate pain with experiences and judge those experiences in a broad view hence racism and stereotyping all of “that group” that harmed them. When I was hurt deeply by a particular Charismatic Church in the beginning it took years and many discussions with Charismatic/Pentecostal pastors and laymen alike. Eventually though I learned to appreciate what the Charismatic movement has done for the body of Christ. Yet, a denomination or in this case, whole group of people adhering to Pentecostal roots. I do not believe a lot of their teachings for it seems that they took experiences and read them into Scripture. Now how that relates to this is evident. When one denomination hurts someone or abuses their authority or “a” or “one” teaching rubs someone the wrong way, the WHOLE GROUP is unfairly placed in the same bucket – hence the phrase, “don’t throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. Now finally getting to the end of the matter…from my personal experiences and the testimony of hundreds I have counseled and spoken with, the norm for that individual to avoid the denomination or affiliation like a plague. Then they find all the negative arsenal of weapons from some teachers of the sect or finding others who agree with their views and shared paid and they feed off each other. The denomination’s problems get blown way out of proportion and the experiences become exaggerated and in the end, there are few truthful words to the accusations ; some unintentionally and some with malice. Not all denominations are bad and most contain partial truths at best and others full of complete error such as Mormons.

There have been many posts since this was written yet I will not comment on any of those until you have had a chance to reply to this text.

October 24, 2006 at 3:34 pm#31197

Participant

T8:

I have no doubt you have the Spirit of God. I actually found this site and joined from one of your posts from '02. I agree with most of what you say. Yet, I don't believe denominations are all bad or as bad as some give them the bad rap. God has so designed organizations to help edify the body. Does that mean they are perfect and without error incapable of rebuke now and again? Of course not. Some simply follow creeds and others just use creeds for a source of help. We all benefit from studying the “fathers” in the faith that have gone before us. To ignore them would be at the cost of our folly and ignorance. I have said time and again, if Luther had not done what he did, we would all be Catholic and this discussion would be a moot point and we would all be labeled hereitcs, rebels and perceived as a hinderance to the “Mother Church”. Luther did not set out to divide the Church. He simply pointed out errors in the Church at that time and did not even intend on dividing the Church. His 95 Thesis was posted for the fellow theologians/doctors and priests, cardinals…etc,etc. It was not meant to get into the laymen's hands. It did and the Reformation was born. Luther and Calvin and manyother Reformers simply did then what t8, you are doing now. You see the need of reform in modern day Christendom and I agree. But let's do it the right way and not bring the denominations to the same level of disgrace. They have done good to the body. They have done bad likewsie but we are mere flesh.

October 24, 2006 at 6:04 pm#31201

Participant

PS: David:
In the midst of reading the recent posts and it being a different day, I seemed to lose my thought. All of my last paragraph was to say this:

1)We as humans are not infallible in our view of God.
2)God may sure that there would be NO way we could DEFINE Him with ONE word, ONE doctrine, ONE creed, ONE “message of faith”, ONE denomination, affiliation, association, segregation, separation, ONE ____ fill in the blank. When Paul speaks of ONE baptism, ONE faith, ONE body he is not speaking of ONE Church. In Paul’s time there were letters written to Church(es) in different regions. Likewise when Jesus spoke to the 7 Church (es) through John, He was referring to ONE BODY. That ONE BODY consisted of multiple Churches from multiple cities. The misconception now days is there was only ONE Church at Ephesus, Thessalonica, Galatia, Rome, and Corinth. The ONE letter written to whichever Church Paul was sending was actually written to multiple Churches within that region. So Paul and Jesus and Peter (Macedonia), and others were sending the letter to the main metropolitan areas which would then be passed to other local bodies in surrounding regions. I must emphasize that these bodies made up of humans who make mistakes were at times being admonished for adhering to “strange” or “new” ideas that Jesus not the Apostles passed down. They were not dis-fellowshipped or “kicked out”. They were admonished to turn again to the true gospel given and at other times even in the same letter, were encouraged to continue on. However EACH CHURCH dealt with different problems. They were NOT all in ONE like mind. They were encouraged to do so and giving time to correct the issue at hand. God is merciful and in His Sovereignty chose frail humans who are broken vessels to manifest His Glory and bring a message of peace and preach Yeshua and Him Crucified. The only time one was dis-fellowshipped was indeed for sin and sin ONLY. However the body was not encouraged to give up on that person. There was a chain of command if you will that even Jesus emphasized. The one who saw the sin or was sin against went one on one, then two or more if he does not repent, then the Church. THEN if he does not repent shake the dust off your feet and do not even eat with such one. Moving on….

Finally (aren’t you glad it’s over?):

The norm for people offended by a particular group do not study their TRUE doctrine. They find ONE false idea held by such a group and then declare them false, in error, and at times heretical or even damnable. I advise people in the body of Christ to study their roots and read their Bible AT LEAST once a year. Otherwise how is one to test any denomination even the kingdom halls? There have been many hurts healed and many misconceptions cleared up. Now I am not saying that just because you now have a fuller understanding of a denomination or Church that believes they are “non”denominational (no such thing) I am not implying that you should just say, “well, at least they do this or that.” There are times when you can. But other times when you learn FACTS from denominations from the denominations literature themselves (not one person’s view within the camp he falls under) you have to conclude they are indeed in deep error and it is not your job to try and “change” them – that is a task for God to do.

For example you mentioned Catholicism as being “…catholicism is the most wrong religion on the planet (including the non-Chrisitian ones.)… I was astounding by such a very strong comment. Islam takes the Torah and Jesus’ Gospel and shred it up in their Quran. They believe that Paul was the biggest liar in history and made up the WHOLE Gospel. They do not even believe in the prophets, Psalms, Writing, and most surely not the Epistles of ANY writer. They declare that, “God is not begotten has begotten.” Declaring that “God (Allah) has not Son. They also make the sacrifice event of Abraham to Isaac into the sacrifice of Ishmael (from whom they descend). I could go on and on about their damnable teachings. Buddhists worship an idol. Hindus worship millions (maybe billions now?) gods. My point is there are TONS of “religions” that are WAY WORSE than Roman Catholicism.

I speak from experience. God ended up placing in the middle of a very strong Catholic community and I met many former Protestants from almost every denomination including the Kingdom Hall. I was intrigued. I heard many slogans that were at best partial truths and most of the time out right lies. They were “Mary worshippers”, the Popes were declared to be the antichrist or false prophet, the Roman Church would not let people read their Bible (it is historical though at times in the past centuries there was such an event though not in modern times). However I found in their Catechism many of those claims unfounded by Rome herself. Rome does not allow Mary to be worshipped. The Bible is encouraged STRONGLY to be read and poured over.

I guess what I am saying is did you investigate their claims before you left out of anger or disdain? I need to add a clause here: I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT ROMAN CATHOLICSM IS “THE” TRUE CHURCH FOUNDED 2000 YEARS AGO!. I studied their doctrine and attended many masses, going to RCIA for months at a time, and many discussions with priests and sometimes with Catholic Theologians – once at a parish and other times online. In the end I concluded many of their doctrines in error and that most Catholics or “cradle” Catholics have NO IDEA what Rome teaches and encourage the worship of relics, icons and Marian idolatry. I saw tons of Catholics bow down to statues and give the utmost reverence to Mary’s statue. I saw few statues of Jesus. The ones I did were hardly if ever acknowledged or prayed to.

I am not saying you were wrong for leaving Rome. You made the right choice. Only if you had done more investigating you would have a strong defense when you go to Catholic homes. I can talk at length with Catholics and they hear me when they realize I know what Rome teaches and I knw how they worship. I don’t bash Rome (if you do they will tune you out and your conversation will be in vain and come to a quick end), but show where Rome does have “some” truths but they started out on the right rose and veered so far off they have left the narrow way.

You did point out that Rome is the main Church that enforces excommunication.

October 24, 2006 at 6:22 pm#31202

Participant

Hi ,
After Pentecost it says about the disciples in Acts 5
Acts 5:42
“And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.”

Do others agree this is not a JW style door to door evangelism but reaching those who were in the houses of the saved who had not heard the message?

When Paul went to tha pagan city of Athens he went to the the Synagogue and to the commonly agreed place of assembly where men met and argued about all matters.

Acts 17
” 15And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.

16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)”

Why then do JW's doorknock among the Pagan worldly cities now? How many have felt their privacy has been invaded and they are made vulnerable by these tactics? In this day of easy communication why not phone or drop leaflets saying they are in the area at least to offer men the courtesy of the opportunity to prepare for or to refuse their message? Is God incapable of reaching men except by such front on tactics?

October 24, 2006 at 6:38 pm#31205

Oxy

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2006,09:12)

Hi Oxy. Glad to hear from you.
When we come across someone who tells us they've been born again, (and there are many such people) it usually means that they believe they'll someday be with Christ in heaven.
Yet, when we ask them what they'll be doing there with him, they have this blank look on their face. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10)
And too, what people mean by being born again is not always the same.
When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5)
The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:29)

I'd like to say this and say it loudly and clearly. Not everyone who thinks they are born again are. Most aren't. There are divisions, fighting, killing, blood, hatred, different doctrines, etc, between groups claiming to be born again. As Jesus said, many would be saying “lord lord,” but it would mean nothing. They would really think they were on Jesus side, but their fruits would show them otherwise.

Quote

I have had quite a number of JW's knocking on my door over the years.

Hey Oxy. Just curious how many other groups felt the Bible message was important enough to come to discuss with you? If you could please name them:
JW's, possibly Mormons, etc.

Could you do that for me?

Quote

And then when I share with them how God radically changed my life they don't want to know.

So Oxy… um.. let me see, what can I ask you….how did God….change your life radically?

Hi David, thankd for your reply. I see I have a bit to answer to lol.

1. There are not a lot of groups that come knocking, it's as you say. I have done some door knocking and know of others from my church who do the same. Mostly not to the extent of the JW's and Mormons. I tend to focus on people that I have an association with, such as my students (adult learning environment), and people I meet during the day to day course of life.

2. How did God radically change my life? Glad you asked lol. In 1978 I was unemployed by choice, a drug dependant criminal who was heavily involved in occult practices. Anti social to the max with total disrespect, even hate for authority. I was anger waiting to explode. When I came to the end of myself I cried out to God, not really knowing who God was. He said to me (very clearly) the name of Jesus is used to cast out demons. I called out Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and felt the demons leave me. Because I did not change my ways they came back again. On the 3rd day I realised (after much torment) that the only way I could be free was to give my life to God. I asked Him for forgiveness and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour, totally surrendering to Him. The next morning when I woke up I was different!

I felt so light and so good with the weight of sin gone from me! No drug had EVER made me feel this good! I walked into town and met up with some mates. As I was talking to them I stopped mid sentence in amazement as I realised not one swear word had come out of my mouth, yet I had the foulest of mouths! I looked over the road and saw a policeman. Instead of my heckles rising and hate consuming me, I saw a man doing his job! I could go on.. and on.. lol

Have a look at some more of my testimony on my page http://www.all4god.net/my_experiences.htm

October 24, 2006 at 6:40 pm#31206

Oxy

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 24 2006,09:56)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 25 2006,04:39)

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 24 2006,07:49)

Oxy, they have to get their theology straight first, putting your faith in Michael the Archangel will not save you….

David, you're a nice guy and I like you a lot but you have to understand that you have been duped….

That may be so Is 1:18, but david does know that you are duped too, regarding the Trinity doctrine.

How about you guys undupe each other.

Is 1:18, takes david's advice that the Trinity is false doctrine and david takes Is 1:18 advice that the JWs are not the true Church.

Believe it or not, you guys both have a key that can help unlock a truth. I wonder if you are humble enough to receive from each other?

t8, I am known by my fruit. Check it out http://www.all4god.net/my_experiences.htm

October 24, 2006 at 7:06 pm#31211

Participant

Hi Oxy,
This is scriptural fruit.

Gal 5
“22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

Ephesians 5:9
“(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)”

and are of Christ in us

Philippians 1:11
Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Mark 4:28
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

Thus only others can say anything about our fruit.

Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Luke 6:43
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

October 24, 2006 at 7:39 pm#31212

Participant

Quote

In my experience I see more Mormons than JWs going about preaching their doctrine. But the Mormons probably stand out more as they wear suits and have badges. They like to ask where are your apostles and prophets, when they find out that you are a christian.

Yes, Mormon's are easier to notice, because of that. I have also had them state that they have prophets. It's one of the things they beleive sets them apart.

Quote

Yet the Spirit of God led me away from those who would deceive me into joining THEIR organisation and perhaps get 10% of my income in the process.

I know you've mentioned this many times. It's unfortunate that some organizations work this way.

Quote

Someone trying to convert me to a man-made orgainsation has little chance. But I know that man-made organisations have a better chance with someone who knows little. Someone who is just starting on the road of faith. Someone who is immature enough to think that following men will lead them to God.

Again, just because there are definitley false religions, does not mean they are all false. If you were living in the first century, you would have had to join yourself to those who were God's people back then and be a part of that organization.

Quote

I pray that the enemy will touch them not. I pray that the organisations of men will not get their greedy hands on them and disciple them away from God and take their money.

How much of your money did they get? You seem most troubled by the money they took from you. It should be noted that Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing like that.

david

October 24, 2006 at 8:24 pm#31215

Mercy

Participant

David,

You Say:

I did, it's called the body of Christ.

October 24, 2006 at 8:29 pm#31216

Participant

amen

October 24, 2006 at 8:41 pm#31218

Participant

Quote

Hi ,
After Pentecost it says about the disciples in Acts 5
Acts 5:42
“And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.”

Do others agree this is not a JW style door to door evangelism but reaching those who were in the houses of the saved who had not heard the message?

Nick, sure, they did go to fellow disciples. But let's look at the whole Bible for a second.

MATTHEW 10:11,14
““Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving. . . .Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, ON GOING OUT OF THAT HOUSE or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet.”
They weren't told to shake the dust off of their feet from going to fellow believers. So, you're wrong.

Such ‘searching out’ would reasonably include going to the people’s homes, where “deserving” persons would heed the message and the disciples would find lodging for the night.—Lu 9:1-6.

On a later occasion Jesus “designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come.” These were not just to preach in public places but were also to contact people at their homes. Jesus instructed them:
“Wherever you enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’”—Lu 10:1-7.

In the days following Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus’ disciples continued bringing the good news right to the homes of the people. Though ordered to “stop speaking,” the inspired record says that “every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Ac 5:40-42; compare Dy, NIV.)

Nick, the expression “from house to house” translates the Greek kat́ oíkon, literally, “according to house”; the sense of the Greek preposition katá is distributive (“from house to house”) and not merely adverbial (‘at home’).

R. C. H. Lenski, in his work The Interpretation of The Acts of the Apostles, Minneapolis (1961), made the following comment on Ac 5:42: “Never for a moment did the apostles cease their blessed work. ‘Every day’ they continued, and this openly ‘in the Temple’ where the Sanhedrin and the Temple police could see and hear them, and, of course, also κατ’ οικον, which is distributive, ‘from house to house,’ and not merely adverbial, ‘at home.’ ”

It was partially because of this method of reaching people—going directly to their homes—that brought outstanding results. “The number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much.”—Ac 6:7; compare 4:16, 17 and 5:28.

The apostle Paul told the elders of Ephesus:
“From the first day that I stepped into the district of Asia . . . I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house. But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Ac 20:18-21; compare KJ, Dy, AS, RS, Mo, NIV, La.) Paul was here speaking of his efforts to preach to these men when they were yet unbelievers, persons needing to know “about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” Thus, from the start of his missionary service in Asia, Paul searched “from house to house” for spiritually inclined persons. Finding such ones, he doubtless returned to their homes to teach them further and, as these became believers, to strengthen them in the faith.

Dr. A. T. Robertson, in his book Word Pictures in the New Testament, comments as follows on Acts 20:20: “By (according to) houses. It is worth noting that this greatest of all preachers preached from house to house and did not make his visits mere social calls.”—1930, Vol. III, pp. 349, 350.

Commenting on Acts 20:20, Randolph O. Yeager wrote that Paul taught “both in public assemblies [demosía] and from house to house (distributive [katá] with the accusative). Paul had spent three years in Ephesus. He visited every house, or at least he preached to all of the people (verse 26). Here is scriptural warrant for house to house evangelism as well as that carried on in public meetings.”

In the Greek text the word “houses” (oikous) follows the Greek preposition katá and is in the accusative case, plural. On the use of this preposition katá with the accusative case the book A Greek Grammar for Schools and Colleges, by Hadley and Allen, says on page 256, under katá: “with accusative . . . in distributive expressions: katá phyla by clans, each clan by itself, katà dyo by twos, two by two, kath’ hemeran day by day.”
Says the book A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, by Dana and Mantey, D.D., on page 107, under the heading Katá: “(3) With the accusative case: Along, at, according to. Luke 10:4, . . . ‘Salute no one along the road.’ Also in the distributive sense: Acts 2:46 kat’ oikon, from house to house: Luke 2:41 kat’ etos, from year to year; 1 Cor. 14:27, katà dyo, by twos. See also Luke 8:1; 13:32.”
Quoting from still another Greek authority, that of Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, by Samuel G. Green, D.D. (Revision of 1912 edition), on pages 248, 249, under katá, it says: “β?. With the Accusative. . . . 4. Of place or time, distributively, from one to another. Mark xiii.8: seismoì katà tópous, earthquakes in diverse places. Luke viii.1: diódeue katà pólin, he was journeying from city to city. So kat’ étos year by year, Luke ii.41; kat’ oíkon, at different houses, Acts ii.46, v. 42; katà pan sábbaton, every Sabbath, Acts xv.21;” and so forth.
To quote just one more authority, there is also the book A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, translated, revised and enlarged, by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D.; on page 327, under the heading Katá, it says: “II. With the accusative: . . . 3. it denotes reference, relation, proportion, of various sorts: a. Distributively, indicating a succession of things following one another, α?. in reference to place katà polin, in every city, (city by city, from city to city), Luke 8:1, 4; Acts 15:21; 20:23; Titus 1:5,” and followed by a number of other references. Other grammars could doubtless be referred to to substantiate the distributive use of the Greek preposition katá with the accusative case as found in Acts 20:20.
Not only does the New World Translation render the phrase in question “from house to house,” but so also do the following translations: King James Version, American Standard Version, English Revised Version, Revised Standard Version of 1952, Holy Bible from the Peshitta, by George M. Lamsa, the New Testament in an Improved Version based on Archbishop Newcomb’s new translation, the New Testament, by Charles Williams, the Holy Bible, by Monsignor Ronald A. Knox, the New Testament, by F. A. Spencer, edited by Callan-McHugh, the Spanish Moderna Version. Also the Englishmen’s Greek New Testament with an interlinear literal translation, which, unlike the Emphatic Diaglott, has under the expression kat’ oikous in Acts 20:20 the interlinear reading “from house to house,” also A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, D.D., the Catholic Confraternity Translation of the New Testament, the New Testament in the Westminster Version, by Cuthbert Latty, Jesuit, also the Riverside New Testament, by William G. Ballantine.

Paul himself was an example, saying:
ACTS 20:20,21
“I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching yo
u publicly and from house to house.”
Then he goes on to say: “I thoroughly bore witness.”

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When Paul went to tha pagan city of Athens he went to the the Synagogue and to the commonly agreed place of assembly where men met and argued about all matters.

And from house to house. Don't forget that part.

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Acts 17
” 15And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.

16Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)”

Sure. No one is saying he didn't go to synogogues. He went where the people were. And he “thoroughly bore witness.”

Notice that they said: He brings strange things to our ears.
Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented “a new teaching.” (Mark 1:27)
Later, in this account some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a “new teaching.” (Acts 17:19, 20)

Nick, it was new and different to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God’s Word.

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Nick, I'm sure a good many of those Jews that Paul and the diciples called on felt the same way. Nick, we do use the phone to reach places that don't really allow us in. We use the phone here in Canada because of the cold, often. Many people do tell us “I'm busy.” It's probably the second most often thing we hear. Those who are interested have no problem asking us to come back. They can even choose the time if they like. But if you consider it a “tactic” without “courtesy” then you do well to contemplate why God chose this method to reach people. See above.

david

October 24, 2006 at 8:48 pm#31219

Participant

Hi Mercy. Where have you been?

T8 has repeatedly shown a hatred toward organization and specifically organizations that he considers to be manmade.

I was once again explaining to t8 that if he lived in the first century and had his attitude, he'd have problems. Organization in itself isn't bad. And yes, back then it was the body of Christ. Today it's the body of Christ. They were called Christians. Today, obviously, the word “Christian” means very little and those who wear it are most likely not representing Christ.
The body of Christ were made of of people that came together, were organized in true worship, and were united, one.
My point to t8 which I don't think you grasped (nor Nick) was that God has always had people. And while T8 likes to mention man-made organizations, the fact that men are in a group does not make it man-made. The early Christians were an organized group. They didn't all just do their own thing.

david

October 24, 2006 at 9:35 pm#31225

Participant

Hey david: I understand that I posted an exhaustive post and not every line needs to be commented on but I was wondering if you ignored it? Just curious because you answered the posts that were after mine?

October 24, 2006 at 9:38 pm#31226

Participant

Hi david,
” The early Christians were an organized group. “
God organised it. It is the assembly of the reborn into the body of Christ and united in the powerful Holy Spirit. Is that Spirit still showing His power in your denomination?

October 24, 2006 at 9:44 pm#31228

Participant

Hi Casey. I'm not ignoring you. I just thought I could answer Nick more quickly.

You say:

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1) The message of method of bringing the message is successful. Though, if you are in error and going forth with a false gospel,

Casey, I was not at that point trying to establish that our message was the right one, which it is.
I was only pointing out the truth that Jesus fortold an earth wide preaching work in the time of the end….and that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones bringing people in all the nations the good news of the kingdom.
Yes, there are mormons who are often cited as going to people, but as you say in this same post:
“others [denominations are] full of complete error such as Mormons.”
So yes, the Mormons are known IN SOME AREAS as going to people. But do they bring the kingdom message?
My point was that there are only a couple of groups that are really known for going to people. And when we eliminate the Mormons who are “full of complete error” as you say and don't actually speak to people about God's kingdom, who does that leave? Only one group as far as I can tell.

So, my logic tells me that if we are living in the last days and if Jesus words are true, about the good news being preached in all the nations, the good news of the kingdom, then that leaves me with only one conclusion.

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I would be reluctant and hesitant to be bringing such a message without testing it and seeing if it lines up with Scripture, which you know

I have lined it up. Let's focus on what I just said.

The Bible: 'There's going to be a worldwide preaching work of Jesus disciples telling people in all the nations about God's kingdom.'

What I see: Jehovah's Witnesses and no other group involved in a worldwide preaching campaign bringing the good news of the kingdom.

I've lined it up.

You earlier said:

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Going from door to door no doubt is the cause or root of the phenomenal success in “recruiting” if you will, fellow witnesses.

As my previous post on going from door to door stated, it also was one of the root causes of the phenominal success of the early disciples.
“The number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much.”—Ac 6:7; compare 4:16, 17 and 5:28.

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I find no premise by which to justify the claim of the unrighteous given another chance. If that be the case then those whom you visit could just continue in their lost state of hedonism and sin for they will have the same benefits of JW’s and be judged in the millennium by works and obedience for the JW teaching states that in the millennium the JW’s are not guaranteed eternity if they are disobedient.

I'd like to talk about this. I feel it almost deserves it's own subject, as I haven't really ever discussed this on here.
When it speaks of a resurrection of the righteous and “unrightous” we feel that these unrighteous doesn't apply to people who have heard the good news message or been given warning, but referst to those who haven't had a chance to hear. Obviously, the great preaching work Jesus fortold was for the “conclusion of the system of things (world)” or the “last days” or “time of the end.” Before that, there were periods of darkness, there were whole centuries such as the dark ages where people obviously weren't given a chance or the chance wasn't even possible to let them hear the good news. Travel, printing, etc, have made things much easier than they were in centuries past. So, without actually going into detail or scripture, that is what we believe when it refers the the unrighteous that will be resurrected. And we believe after they are resurrected, we will face judgment day a thousand year period and they will then have a chance to respond to the good news.
But I understand what you're saying. According to our belief, wouldn't someone be better to lock themselves in a safe so no one can contact them with the good news so that they will be resurrected? I feel if a person did that purposefully, they would have to already have a general understanding of our message. Anyway, this topic deserves an actual conversation and I will come back to this.

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Eventually though I learned to appreciate what the Charismatic movement has done for the body of Christ.

Nick, meet Casey. Casey, meet Nick.

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2) God may sure that there would be NO way we could DEFINE Him with ONE word, ONE doctrine, ONE creed, ONE “message of faith”, ONE denomination, affiliation, association, segregation, separation, ONE ____ fill in the blank. When Paul speaks of ONE baptism, ONE faith, ONE body he is not speaking of ONE Church. In Paul’s time there were letters written to Church(es) in different regions.

The word “church” is confusing.
Let me replace it: “ONE body he is not speaking of ONE Church [faith, religion]. In Paul’s time there were letters written to Church(es) [congregations] in different regions.

Or did you mean “congregation” in that first instance? Because if you did, obviously he's not referring to one specific congregation. But he is speaking of one faith, one united faith. That faith is made up of different congregations.
Using the word “church” for both is a part of the confusion.

1. The socially acceptable politacally correct idea that there are many ways to reach God or to be friends with God is wrong. There are two roads. One is narrow and difficult. the other is wide and easy. Most are on the wide road.
2. Jehovah is a God of order and peace. The confusion and hatred and division and anger and fighting and conflicting doctrines we see among the religions of Christendom mean that they cannot all be right. They can't, logically. One says black, one white. Both cannot be right. I tend to look at those who go to war and kill their fellow believers, so called brothers as bad fruit. Killing your brothers…bad. God's people would not only be united, one, but they would love one another, and hence, not kill one another in worldly wars.

On the subject of disfellowshipping, i can see that this is an issue with you and would like to discuss it and with a greater amount of time. The time I have now could not do it justice.

Let's keep track: Resurrection of unrighteous, disfellowshipping.

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For example you mentioned Catholicism as being “…catholicism is the most wrong religion on the planet (including the non-Chrisitian ones.)… I was astounding by such a very strong comment. Islam takes the Torah and Jesus
’ Gospel and shred it up in their Quran. They believe that Paul was the biggest liar in history and made up the WHOLE Gospel. They do not even believe in the prophets, Psalms, Writing, and most surely not the Epistles of ANY writer. They declare that, “God is not begotten has begotten.” Declaring that “God (Allah) has not Son. They also make the sacrifice event of Abraham to Isaac into the sacrifice of Ishmael (from whom they descend). I could go on and on about their damnable teachings. Buddhists worship an idol. Hindus worship millions (maybe billions now?) gods. My point is there are TONS of “religions” that are WAY WORSE than Roman Catholicism.

Realize that I say that coming from a Catholic background. But as far as comparing them with non-Christian religions, my words stand. Catholics should know better. Much like the religious scribes and pharisees, a heavier judgement falls on them because they claim to represent God. The Buddhists don't. The Hindu's don't. Here's the thing. With the Catholics, it's like they set out to go against the Bible. It's like they specifically took things: “don't call anyone your father.” and then decided against it. Or the scripture that says in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith commanding not to marry and to abstain from foods…. There is no command not to marry. The apostles were mostly married. Their first pope Peter certainly was. Yet, they (although saying they don't) command or at least so strongly urge their leaders to not marry that it is like a command. I remember not eating meat on fridays. Where does the Bible say anything like that, excpet to say that it's an inspried utterance of demons in the scripture I cited. Everything. My head hurts thinking about it. So when I say it's the most wrong religion, I realize they own Bibles and say they believe in God whereas Hindu's don't, but what I mean is they bear more responsibility than the Hindu's etc. This is just me talking.

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My point is there are TONS of “religions” that are WAY WORSE than Roman Catholicism.

Satan worshippers at least are truthful about what they are doing. Remember, the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

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the Popes were declared to be the antichrist or false prophet, the Roman Church would not let people read their Bible (it is historical though at times in the past centuries there was such an event though not in modern times).

are you sure it wasn't until the past century that Bible reading began to be encouraged and until recently that the sermons were in latin, not understandable?

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Rome does not allow Mary to be worshipped. The Bible is encouraged STRONGLY to be read and poured over.

Rome doesn't allow it. It happens a lot. Bible reading is enouraged. It happens rarely.
I used to call on a woman named Maria who loved Mary. If I ever attempted to say that Mary had other Children or anything about Mary at all, the conversation would end. this is what she told me. It's the only topic that was not for discussion.

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In the end I concluded many of their doctrines in error and that most Catholics or “cradle” Catholics have NO IDEA what Rome teaches and encourage the worship of relics, icons and Marian idolatry. I saw tons of Catholics bow down to statues and give the utmost reverence to Mary’s statue.

Ya. Sorry. yeah.

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Only if you had done more investigating you would have a strong defense when you go to Catholic homes.

I get the feeling the Catholics who go to church have been told repeatedly not to speak with us. The Catholics I have spoken with and there are hundreds seem to not be too interested in the Bible. Their tradition is “just as important or more,” according to one of them. So it's hard to reason with them.

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I can talk at length with Catholics and they hear me when they realize I know what Rome teaches and I knw how they worship. I don’t bash Rome (if you do they will tune you out and your conversation will be in vain and come to a quick end), but show where Rome does have “some” truths

Of course. We don't “bash” them either. We often try to start on a common point. The only part of the Bible we know they know for sure is the Lord's prayer. So we or at least I, often use that as a launching pad to speak of the kingdom that is to come.
And since they think the kingdom is most likely they're church or heaven or something inside of them, I try to show them scriptures that speak of it as a real government, and ask if they've ever thought of it that way?
But, realistically, usually, if they do say anything other than: “I'm busy or not interested,” it would be: “You don't believe Jesus is God,” or “You don't believe in Jesus,” so you're not a Christian. The irony of it is that we're there, at their house because we're following Jesus command to “Go and make disciples of people of all the nations…” (mat 28:19,20)
We do try to commend their zeal or establish some kind of common ground. We don't try to bash. That wouldn't be a very helpful teaching or preaching method. And, when they're done yelling at us, we shake the dust from our feet, forget about that house and move on to the next door. Actually, there's a much wider range than I speak of. I used to be from a small town, where it was 90 percent catholic and the responces were much more like what I mentioned, and much scarier. Threats of guns, “get off my property,” swearing, etc.

david

October 24, 2006 at 9:45 pm#31229

Participant

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I was writing my post while you wrote this. I thought you might think that. I thought Nick's post would be quicker and easier.

October 24, 2006 at 9:46 pm#31230

Participant

So, the resurrection of the unrighteous. And disfellowshipping. I'll come back to these. I have to go. bye

October 24, 2006 at 10:00 pm#31231