Jehovah's Witness Church

[david]

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meaning you do not accept responsibility for your false accusations and slandering you state on this thread.

What slander, or false accusations? Just above, you accused me of being 14. You say a lot, throw a lot of little things into your posts. Many of them are wrong. Most are trivial, so I ignore them.

[david]

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When I say I am a protestant I am defining EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER who holds to the Orthodox teachings of the faith. Now that would exclude JW's

–Casey
Interesting how Jehovah's Witnesses are always excluded from everything, and rightfully so. We are different. We do stand apart. Thanks again for bringing that out Casey.
Jesus followers would be “no part of the world,” as the Bible says. They would be separate and distinct.

[david]

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In fifty years make sure you come out with your own bible transaltion that shows your views…there are a number of ways to do this. The most standard way cults use them is like placing : ' ” ; [] and such puncuations in places where the English reader will read the text differently from EVERY OTHER BIBLE THAT HAS BEEN IN USE FOR 600 YEARS IN ENGLISH! Another way you can make this version is adding words like (other) or adding a predicate where one is not there like “a” (g)od and on that note keep your letters lower case except for The God…and on that note, come up with a different name for God that is not his real name and add letters there to make it make sense. Then take a away from the text predicates that do belong there like holy spirit instead of the Holy Spirit….and on that note change the entire word and infer a word that describes what the sprit can do and instead of making it a verbe, make the verbe a noun such as “active force”.

–Casey.

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Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.

–Casey

Casey, in your own words, I say these:

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I can see this has become a sort of antogonistic thread. Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone?

As you seem clear your aim is not to discuss the Bible or even to find out about JW's, but rather to slander them and without even trying to back up what you say, I think I'm done discussing anything with you.

I'm sure you'll continue to find things off of anit-JW sites and post them here. Maybe like your predicessors, you'll just start posting the links. They all found that was easier.

Good bye Casey. It's always fun to speak with others who are determined to speak badly of JW's. I find their claims funny often. They jump from one topic to the next before you can say anything. They tend to use very little scriptures, sometimes, in the case of Soxan, I'm pretty sure not even owning a Bible. Yet, they continue.

You say you can't speak ill of witnesses. Yet you do at every turn. Then you accuse me of slander and false accusations when it is you who does all the accusing.

You question our motives in preaching, when yours are clear.

david

[NickHassan]

Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Oct. 19 2006,23:05)

Hi casey, You constantly define yourself as a PROTESTANT. What does that mean? Your religion was born of protest against catholicism? So you admit catholicism still defines your basis of faith? Is that not a historical triviality or still what defines you? Surely we should be defined by who we follow rather than who we protest against? What value will such a word have when we find out if we are known by the Master? Nick time and again time and again time and again. What in the world is wrong with you people on this thread? What problem do you have with words? You all seem to think that being defined to help illustrate and explain things is unscriptural? What about covenant? What about justification? What about atonement? What about the numerous words in the Bible that explain a truth? Do you want EVERYTHING to be explained in small words that form a sentence that form a paragraph that form a thesis? Apprantly so because I have to post HUGE threads with more than enough information and then all I get is some silly questions like: Quote You constantly define yourself as a PROTESTANT. What does that mean? Are you kidding me Nick? You can't be serious. When I say I am a protestant I am defining EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER who holds to the Orthodox teachings of the faith. Now that would exclude JW's due to their apostasy from Orthodox Doctrine however their beginnings originate from Protestant organizations such as 7th Day Adventist and other Dispensational groups. You yourself sir are a Protestant. If Luther did not do what he did in 1517 we would all be Catholic and not having this very discussion. People on this site treat men of faith gone before them with contempt. You should all feel ashamed. Do you think people like Erasmus, Luther, Beza, Knox, Calvin and the list goes on, were apostates? If you do then you would agree with the Catholic Church. The very Church you dispise! Isn't there a passage in Scripture where two kings were at adds with one another but agreed on persecuting Christianity? Ring a bell??? Quote Your religion was born of protest against catholicism? So you admit catholicism still defines your basis of faith? Where does the conclusion from that come? I adhere to teachings the Catholic Church declared anhethima in 1550 at the Council of Trent. You are a protestor sir. Only you have become a Protestant – protestant – protestant – protestan – protesta – protest – protes – prote – prot – pro – pr – p – and eventually your theological views will become so distorted you wouldn't even be recognized as a believer! Quote Surely we should be defined by who we follow rather than who we protest against? Hence Christianity – Christian – Christ…whom we follow. Quote Your religion My religion? I do not submit to a religion. A religion would be classified as Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals (that is up for debate), Hinduism, Judaism, Wicca…etc,etc. There are too many religions on here. You sir have developed your own. You can be as successful as the JW's in proselytizing millions of people. You can be James Russell and not like modern Chrisitanity (the Christianity that has survived 2000 years mind you). Go ahead an recruit people from the net. (The door knocking days have passed). Teach them your doctrine from Scripture by taking versus that fit your scheme of thinking. Make yourself come off humble and kind (I am not saying you aren't here). Write a thesis of basic Bible Doctrines you believe. Make it look professional and use “proof texts” to base your claim. Convince two people to believe you. Write literature that you control what is in it and elaborate on your thinking. Change with the times or conform with the world to make sure you do not offend anyone thereby causing them to not wanna join you. Get them in your group long enough to brainwash them with some sort of reverse psychological thinking (if you do not follow what these Scriptures plainly say you are no longer in the truth and will not enter paradise). In fifty years make sure you come out with your own bible transaltion that shows your views…there are a number of ways to do this. The most standard way cults use them is like placing : ' ” ; [] and such puncuations in places where the English reader will read the text differently from EVERY OTHER BIBLE THAT HAS BEEN IN USE FOR 600 YEARS IN ENGLISH! Another way you can make this version is adding words like (other) or adding a predicate where one is not there like “a” (g)od and on that note keep your letters lower case except for The God…and on that note, come up with a different name for God that is not his real name and add letters there to make it make sense. Then take a away from the text predicates that do belong there like holy spirit instead of the Holy Spirit….and on that note change the entire word and infer a word that describes what the sprit can do and instead of making it a verbe, make the verbe a noun such as “active force”. Well there you go Nick. Have a ball.

Hi casey,
Well we are not defined by negative things surely?
We are either reborn
and in Christ and
full of new life
or still dead
and poking around in the rubbish tins of the past.

Phil 3
” 7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

[Casey S Smith 29]

Ok David, let’s both come back down to Earth for a minutes here. You have continued to post a comment I made to David about the witnesses not being able to be ill spoken of. Now, I am not trying to speak ill. As you yourself said, we get caught up in the heat of emotions. I personally was dealing with some crisis in my life this week that would have changed my entire life for the worst. I apologize for being rude and attacking you and making accusations they may have been untrue. I have stated some truths though sir. So if you can be forgiving (I have been offended at some of your comments too, but it’s all good) then let’s continue shall we? I think we started out on the wrong foot. When you have said that I keep jumping from topic to topic, I think what has happened is someone may have made a comment that I added on and ended up chasing a rabbit forgetting my original inquiry. And other times you have made comments that I felt should not go unanswered. Yes, I agree that there have been things that I actually cannot prove but are at best good educational guesses and at worst misleading. You have likewise…as I said though, it’s all good bro. You sir seem to have a passion for YHWH as well as I. So, with that said let’s see where we can go with a good discussion maybe? I really want you to keep the rapport going because when a JW comes to my house they won’t let me explain why I may not see their view the same way and will ask why they adhere to it. Most of the time they will get upset and not come back. Some do but since they think I am just being narrow-minded and not listening then they get mad. I really wish one would just sit and talk and have a descent talk about Scripture and our same passion for truth. I think I may have found one who came to my home about a month ago. He was very humble and attentive. Only he hasn’t been back and I am not sure why. Understand, on here I have gotten upset this past week as I said due to some personal problems that I brought on this thread. But when they come over, I get them some food if they want and something to drink. Sometimes we have coffee and we open up the word and some literature of theirs. I here them out and we discuss what I believe some passages may mean or what I think of some thoughts in their literature. I HAVE NEVER gotten into ANY confrontation with a witness that I have let into my house. So why they don’t come back I am not sure.
Well, if you would like to move forward we can.

Thank you first off for answering most of my post. Since you did, I will return the favor. The money thing I think is beat into the ground I think. I did not intend for it to get out of hand. I simply found a quote of the Watchtowers revenue and inquired it from you. We then went back and forth with nothing accomplished but wasted time on both parts chasing the air. I think next Monday I will get into the NWT text and ask some questions that have likewise been presented to me. I will ask you your thoughts and we will keep it clean = ) I will try to stick with one topic. We may end up agreeing to disagree on some but I think it will be good. For now, I will answer your questions and comment on some of your replies. Having said that let's begin:

You have quoted many times:

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MATTHEW 24:14 “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

What is the Gospel of the Kingdom sir? I am not being facetious. What is the Jehovah's Witnesses Gospel of the Kingdom message. There are kingdom halls…kingdom agendas and the like. What was the kingdom message that Jesus and Paul preached? All the way through Romans Paul spoke of the depravity of all men under same condemnation of God for all have sinned, the patients of God overloooking many sins in the past, the law being the bases of judgment for none have done good,right or obeyed the law perfectly, the New Covenant not like the Old that passed giving way to the righteousness in Christ which justifies all believers in Yeshua, the responsibility we believers are expected to do and follow with being given such a wonderful gift og Grace, the mention of how those in Grace do not sin more that Grace may abound, the struggle we all alike deal with in this body of sin, the praise to God for just how wonderful this gift is in which nothing can seperate us from the love of God that is in Messiah Yeshua, the choice of God to have mercy on whom he chooses and harden whom he chooses, THE PREACHING OF THIS MESSAGE, the evidence of God's Sovereignty amongst the Jews who are partially hardened until the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, the submission of authorities on this earth and final greetings.

Now, the book of Romans does not mention a message of the kingdom. The message that was and is preached according to Romans 10 is a follow up of Romans 3,5 showing the Grace of God found ONLY in Jesus. Where is the message of this kingdom? The gospel, good news, or the message we preach is not a kingdom message, it is a message of Grace and the beautiful of the life to come.

This is a long post I understand, but regards the kingdom of God there is too much at stake for the very core and underlining message of the witnesses is a kingdom in which there will be a restored paradise. Yet, I find no such phrase in the NT aside from Jesus response to the thief on the cross. Is the comment made there suppose to give us a litmus test by which we interpret entire Scripture? To me it doesn't seem so, seems to stretch it a bit. All threw Mathew's gospel the reference is to the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. If you look up heaven all through that gospel let alone the other three you find Jesus praying to His Father “who is in heaven” as Psalms says heaven is where God dwells. So are we to preach the message of the kingdom of heaven? What would that message look like? Jesus gives us some parables ot illustrate such as the mustard seed, the man who found it and sold on he had, the virgins and the bridgroom and the numerous accounts made in reference to a weeding feast and dining with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the feast where Jesus himself will be. Jesus told Pilate he was indeed king of the Jews. However, his kingdom is not of THIS WOLRD. He also sensed that the people were going to take him and make him a king and he fled. Surely if Jesus is going to reign as a king on earth, then the first time he came he could have done that correct? Yet that is not why he came. He came to die…period! He taught the words of God being the very Word of God. He fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah about the blind being able to see…at his FIRST coming. In JW literature I read, the prophecies of the blind being able to see are going to take place in a paradise that is yet to come. It doesn't fit. Being all that said, it appears to me that what you and other witnesses are doing is actually not correct. You may have good intentions and feel you are doing God's will and work but I don't think that is His will and His work. The people asked what were the works of God that they may do them, and he stated with one sentence, “the will of God is to believe on Him whom He sent…” Jesus clearly did not preach a kingdom message. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand and is near you and is in your midst was reference not to a physical kingdom but Jesus himself. Jesus it the great tabernacle/temple not made with human hands that Ezekiel sees…Ezekiel saw a shadow of the things to come. He saw the perfect in an imperfect illustration. Jesus fulfills all [/B][/I][/U]kingdom agendas[I] within Himself. Drink of His fountain and grab a hold of his robe! It is awesome!

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I am curious to know why you stated that JW's weren't allowed to use the internet at all when it first came out. That's just plain wrong. I wonder which anti_JW website you got it from.

Maybe it wasn't true. If I looked hard enough I could find it. I actually don't remember the source. I did see it though that I know.

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Right now, I feel you are trying to make the Watchtower out to be a money making machine. Here's the thing. Find someone in Bethal with money. Give me a name. Let's go to their fancy house, and look at all their cars they've bought with a chunk of the billion that flows into the soceity each year. Show me. Show me someone who is making money. You can't. You won't. It's impossible. Yet, you represent that it isn't and unfoundedly so.

Obviously I am not going to NY any time soon and even if I did I wouldn't know where the Watchtower in Brooklyn is. If you give me a plane ticket I'll go with you though! … Yet, I don't think you have a fair statement there. You likewise couldn't go to their house and see their cars and so forth because you don't know where all these employess make and regardless what press statements have been made in regards to employess salary, I don't think you would be given permission to see their check stub.

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This would be another one of your misrepresentations, unfounded… without…foundation. Witnesses who become inactive in the ministry are not disfellowshiped. Your statement was untrue, without basis. I believe they do fit under the heading of “inactive ones.” But other than that, nothing at all happens, except they perhaps receive extra encouragement from shephards.

Well I don't go to a kingdom hall hence I do not know the terminology. But I do know someone personally who was a leader (I think elder but not sure, he may have been just a preacher/speaker) who was disfellowshipped for taken time away from preaching at the kingdom hall to be with his family since somebody was in the hospital. They warned him if you will, that he could not discontinue the preaching if he did not consistantly and willingly abide. He chose his family and was disfellowshipped.
I would like to think that “encouragement from the shephards was true”. Just from my experiences my friends who were witnesses had their family ripped apart by elders. They were forbidden to be around their extended family at any family function, no calls, no visits, no card, no letters…nothing. My best friend did not see a few of his extended family (his mom and a few brothers became believers in Jesus and were baptized at a Baptist Church and are still in that denomination) for over fifteen years. Recently after the incident of his brother -n- law he saw them. It took the elders “kicking him out” for him to realize that something so minute and petty would not be grounds as a follower of God to be disfelloshipped, to finally see his in-laws and my best friend…his sister. There were many tears, hugs, kisses at that reunion.

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DON'T YOU THINK THAT the ones preaching this would be preaching the same message, and not one of disunity? One protestant says this. One says that.

Well true but why is that true do you think?

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So, we Protestants may not utilize your methods per se, but we do use methods. The Net has been a very successful tool for ministry…such as this site – this very thread. Ah, and the billion people who don't have enough to eat each day, much less a computer? What of them? Such a massively global preaching work would need organization, wouldn't it? (mat 28:19,20)

Actually David I didn't say that the Net was the only means by which we preach and witness and do apologetics. I was saying it was one of many means….all to ONE end.

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I'm waiting for a protestant, a mormon (who's never knocked on my door by the way) an anyone to come to me with the kingdom message, anywhere. It doesn't even have to be my home Has one of your evangelical's or anglican's or anyone that represnets what you believe come to me….ever, ever at all? At any time? Have you ever approached me? Ever? Even once?

Not having a Mormon coming to your door is a good thing David, trust me. Most are kids who haven't got a clue what the Bible says but can spit at you some proof texts out of their man made Book of Mormon. I have been in more debates with these guys than anyone. At least you witnesses know your Bible I will give you that. As to why a believer has not approached you I can't answer. Maybe it is where you live? Well, here in Dallas we have tons of people from all over groups that wave the flag of Chrsitianity. I meet people who are from almost every denomination. If you go to Salt Lake City Utah you are either a Mormon or are hounded by Mormons to the point they will make yout life difficult. I have lived all over Dallas and surrounding suburbs. There were some cities like Plano, Richardson, and and Arlington (there may be more but I have lived in too many places in 29 years) where I did not even see a witness much less have one come up to me. Now in the major metropolitan area there are bunches of 'em. They would come wake me up almost every Saturday. When I was dumb and immature I would just spit out a verse and tell them I am a Chrsitian not a Jehovah Witness and they would walk away. I never shut the door in their faces nor did I even ignore them. So what I am saying is maybe you live in a city or town or whatever that doesn't have many “protestant” Churches? You surely will not be approached by a Catholic however if you lived in Mexico or any other Latin American country, or Ireland, Scotland, Italy and other countries, you will probably have one come up to you.

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Teaching methods? Are you perhaps now suggesting that we have excellent teaching methods, methods worthy of imitation?

Witnesses are generous in letting people teach. You do not require credentials or previous leadership experience, so yes they do have some good teaching methods and methods of witnessing. The more you get experience in something the better you become so ex witnesses have skills in teaching and witnessing having dealt with a lot of it.

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I can't re member the name, but someone wrote a book about JW's, explaining all the freedom's they've opened up for certain countries…it was a book that had nothing bad to say about JW. Then, a few year later, when his brother or one of his relatives was disfellowshippped, he wrote anther book. This one was the exact opposite. What was his motive?

But why was his brother disfellowshipped? If his brother was in sin or something of that nature I could understand but if like my best friends brother-n-law, he was disfellowshipped for a reason that had no Biblical grounds then maybe that is why he turned?

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Quote Your passing the buck on this subject is speaking volumes to readers and to myself. I was actually hoping you had a descent rebuttal that I could work with. You have yet to comment on it. There is a plethora of info out there on the net with no axe to grind and no vindictive motive for slander or malice, but merely to give facts about the Watchtower organization.

When I was speaking of you passing the buck on something I was referring to the almost endless amount of times that the Watchtower has changed its predictions for Armeggedon and the return of Christ. Which I can't seem to figure out anyway. If Jesus said only the Father would know, why is your organization trying to foretell it? I was saying you are avoiding the many accusations against the witnesses that show without a doubt the historical proof of the many miscalculations to be nice and fasle prophecies to be exact. Now, this is not done on just the www and not at all done in a tabloid but this is done by your own literature! I have seen actual copies of the literature that were reprinted by permission (though you would look hard in vain to find actual copies in Watchtower due to the bad name they got from it) or some that were kept from year and years ago from ex-witnesses that stated word for word actual predictions that never came to pass. What happened when these events did not come to pass? They would make an addendum that would say, “what we meant was” or “we miscalculated wrong because we forgot to add this year ” and so forth.

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OBJECTS OF HATRED MATTHEW 10:22 “And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.” Why the hatred? JOHN 15:17-20 True Christianity would even cause a division in families. MATTHEW 10:34-37

You quote these verses and imply they are speaking solely to JW's. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. I have been hated for being bold in my witnessing. I was fired from SBC for witnessing. I was written up once at a large company for posting John 3:16,17,18 on a board that was utilized by everyone. There was literature for night clubs, concerts, and some “spiritual” groups but it was me they chose to write up. I had to have a conference with a Union Steward whom the complaint was filed by with my manager. Did the other matierial come down after that? Nope. What I am saying is being hated is not evidence you are doing the right thing. Sometimes people don't hate you, they just wanna sleep in

[QUOTELet's say a kingdom hall costs $100,000.][/QUOTE]

As I stated above I think this topic should just go away. Neither of us have exact numbers and we can therefore not calculate and come to an honest conclusion. But for the sake of the comment I will say that a kingdom hall does not cost that much. You agree I'm sure. You can probably build more than two or three at that cost. You yourself said that the material wasn't extravegant.

Now let me say something about the Kingdom Hall buildings real quick and this is actually a compliment. I actually applaud you for not making your buildings some monsterous, ungodly (pun unintended), triple digit, million dollar building. The greek word ekklesia transliterated ecclesia – English Âhurch can also be termed congregation in which as you know the witnesses use in the NWT and in their conversaitions and other literature. I tend to wonder if maybe that is because JW's have tried so hard to distance themselves from Christianity they have removed minute things such as a word like church? After all, a word church or Church has no relevence at all in regards to serving God. But even so, a problem that has derived from that word is a misunderstanding that the word Church is referring to a building. Yet, normally a congregation (which is a term we likewise use) that understands this will reiterate in the homilies the Church is the people. However, at times the opposite effect has happened and flesh has focused too much on the building and not the people inside though an argument for good architecture is out there and has some defense…which I do not feel like going into.

You said something about the use of using your JW lawyer that I feel I should make a comment on:

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Actually, I believe you're wrong on that too. “He most certainly had to pay.” Most certainly? You base a lot of your certainties on inaccurate statementes. If you are in good standing and want to become a lawyer or a dental technician, or whatever pretty much for Bethel and are willing to be a lawyer or dental techinician or carpenter or whatever for the society for at least a few years I believe, they have programs or I believe they may pay for your degree. As I said, we're trained in just about everything. And you can learn how to do just about anything there for free, if that's where you want to serve. I quote you in full to be fair but emphasis this:

If you are in good standing and want to become a lawyer or a dental technician, or whatever pretty much for Bethel and are willing to be a lawyer or dental techinician or carpenter or whatever for the society for at least a few years I believe, they have programs or I believe they may pay for your degree.

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to ephasize this:

they have programs or I believe they may pay

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Somebody had to pay is all I am saying. Education never comes free. You made a reference to the $.50 a day. I don't understand fully:

I've already done the math. Now you do it. Check it. Add this 50 cents a day onto the 1.2 billion number I came to.

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Who receives this fifty cents a day? I think I misunderstood you I was adding fifty cents a day to the year but did not know how many people this was for.

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During the centuries since then, however, the churches of Christendom have engaged in every conceivable money-raising scheme to finance th
eir activities.

Stereo type?

Are you serious? Stero type? Didn't the bishops used to ask for indulgences or money so that the person wouldn't go to hell? Their methods haven't changed…too too much.

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I do not agree or stand behind the misuse of people's funds. There have been many Christian men who have abused their jobs for material gain. Paul even said it was happening in his day; there were people not long after the Church began that Satan sowed into as a tare to gain wealth or status quo. There are likewise kingdom halls filled with these people too. We no doubt agree on somethings. We agree in orginial sin inherited from Adam and Eve. We agree we live in a sinful world that Satan has partial control and authority (only to the extent that YHWH gives him mind you). So with that said are you surprised there are people who claim to be followers of Christ/Jehovah and are truly weeds amongst the wheat? Did not Jesus state such?

–Casey
Interesting how Jehovah's Witnesses are always excluded from everything, and rightfully so. We are different. We do stand apart. Thanks again for bringing that out Casey.
Jesus followers would be “no part of the world,” as the Bible says. They would be separate and distinct.

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Well that is presumptuous there David. Your group is considered and at times called weird, strange, cultic, demonic, heretical and other names. But that in no way says that the verse of not being apart of this world applies here. Again like above, you are taken a verse (like being hated by the world) and making it applicable solely to JW's. Being different from the world in the context that Jesus is using is not referring to the context you are using it. To be different from the world takes up the worlds system, atheism, hedonism, secularism, communism, chasing after money and amongst many other sins and sinful behavior. I and other believers are not like the world either. I don't care for getting drunk, I don't care for having money as my sole means of joy and goal, I don't care for smoking, I don't care for pornography, I don't care for thievery, murder, Satanic music and all of the god of this worlds desires. The verse applies to all followers of Christ. Now, if you are saying your specific doctrines, they may also not be a good thing. Scripture states to not be apart of the world, but he never said to not be apart of His Church. I am not placing you on par here with such groups as I am about to list but I need to provide how your thinking may be wrong: What about David Karesh (down here in Texas – Waco to be exact) who made up a group called Branch Devidians they had very, very different beliefs from the Church? What about Mormons? They believe God was a man and man will be god. That is very far from the Church's teaching. I could make an exhaustive list of groups that are proud they can use…

We are different. We do stand apart.

…as their slogan.

Again let me state: I apologize sincerely for my comments. I said you can’t speak ill of the witnesses and I did. I am a man of passion, a man of conviction, a man who loves his God more than anything else in the world. My life evolves around Scripture and the study of God (theology), and I likewise enjoy apologetics (the defense of the faith which is what you and I are doing here and what this site is for). Be Blessed David in all your endeavors and Shalom – may the face of YHWH shine on you and yours – may your house be watched over by YHWH’s servants of fire who do YHWH’s bidding.

Ya. I know this is petty but I don’t know what you are saying with these letters. Are you agreeing by saying yeah?

[Casey S Smith 29]

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Ya. I know this is petty but I don’t know what you are saying with these letters. Are you agreeing by saying yeah?

Didn't mean to post that line. Accident.

[david]

Yes. That's my attempt to say: Yeah (yes). I have been spilling it rongly.

[david]

“I apologize for being rude and attacking you and making accusations they may have been untrue.”

No problem Casey. It’s not the what sometimes appears to be the rudeness. It’s what I believe your agenda is, your motives. I don’t know that there’s any point in discussing anything with you, based on the things you’ve said.
Listen, I’ve come across a few people that only wanted to bash JW’s. They would search the web for every accusation they could find. They would post links without discussing anything. One of them did this for weeks before even quoting one scripture. So, I don’t need to waste my time with people like that. Are you like that? Hard to say.

“Yes, I agree that there have been things that I actually cannot prove but are at best good educational guesses and at worst misleading.”

You found the number one billion in revenue. Then ran with it. Yet, you are unwilling to regard the scope of the work we are engaged in. I gave you guesses (that I think are fair) for the numbers of things we’ve published in the past year, the things we’ve built or done. Is that not fair. Tell me what you think the numbers should be. Is 50cents for a magazine too much? You tell me. I come to you with what I know is true. If there are people who are making a profit in this non-profit organization, there you go. Start a lawsuit. And YOU KNOW you won’t have trouble finding people to back you in suing us. They will be coming to your door. It shouldn’t be hard. Start the paperwork.

“The money thing I think is beat into the ground I think. I did not intend for it to get out of hand. I simply found a quote of the Watchtowers revenue and inquired it from you.”

I don’t know what you were doing was “inquiring” so much as “accusing” us repeatedly of being all about money and making money, when that is the EXACT opposite of the truth, based on everything I’ve said: We offer all our literature free, our schools free, our everything free. Does that seem like we’re motived by greed?

“I HAVE NEVER gotten into ANY confrontation with a witness that I have let into my house. So why they don’t come back I am not sure.“

And you probably have never gotten into a confrontation with me, but, I see little reason to make an effort to discuss these things with you. There is a world of people out there who want to learn about God. And yet, I wasted a couple hours speaking to you about the billion dollars that came into our organization last year, and apparently to no avail. We primarlily come to people to bring the good news of Christ and his kingdom to people and all that that kingdom will accomplish. When we come to someone’s house, we are not so interested in spending hours defending accusations that are mostly created by that many of those who hate us.

“We then went back and forth with nothing accomplished but wasted time on both parts chasing the air. “

I wasn’t chasing the air. I provided some math. If my math is wrong, insert your own numbers. I feel they’re already ridiculously low. But make them lower if you like. See how it works. Make the numbers work so that there’s extra money floating around. Please do.

“I will try to stick with one topic.”–Casey
That would be wonderful.

“What is the Gospel of the Kingdom sir? I am not being facetious.”

There’s a lot I’d like to say on your comments about this, but you do have a long post and I’d like to finish off your comments on my comments before commenting on your new comments. We should make this most important subject our next discussion.

“Obviously I am not going to NY any time soon and even if I did I wouldn't know where the Watchtower in Brooklyn is.”
Really? The address is on the first page of each watchtower.

“Yet, I don't think you have a fair statement there. You likewise couldn't go to their house and see their cars and so forth because you don't know where all these employess make and regardless what press statements have been made in regards to employess salary, I don't think you would be given permission to see their check stub.”

Ok, you don’t understand. I’ve known people that have worked there. My wife’s mom’s uncle (I guess my wife’s great uncle?) Has lived there for decades. I’ve been to bethal. You can accept that I’m telling the truth or accuse me of being a liar. But you cannot say that I don’t know.
The thing is, you assume that there are people somewhere that have amassed great sums of money from being at Bethel. We are not like the televangelists who live in gold houses and take money from people. With all those that hate JW’s, it would be easy to find someone who has made money, someone who has apparently retired and lives in a castle somewhere. You’ve seen all the anti-JW propaganda on the net. Surely if such a person or several people exist, it wouldn’t be too hard to find, would it?

“Well I don't go to a kingdom hall hence I do not know the terminology. But I do know someone personally who was a leader (I think elder but not sure, he may have been just a preacher/speaker)”
It’s not the terminolgoy. Being inactive means very little. It has virtually no effect on anything. It’s just a word that is used to describe ones who are inactive in the preaching work–inactive. Makes sense I think.
So, you know this person “personally,” but don’t know if he was a “leader” (I guess you mean “elder” or “overseer” as we have no leaders except Christ) And there are no people designated “preachers” as we all preach the good news (except a couple inactive ones) or “speakers.” Most everyone is in the school and gives talks. Anyway, I’m not sure how personally you know this person or how accurate your story is. These stories always start out with a little bit of truth, but are usually grossly wrong.

“I would like to think that “encouragement from the shephards was true”. Just from my experiences my friends who were witnesses had their family ripped apart by elders. They were forbidden to be around their extended family at any family function, no calls, no visits, no card, no letters…nothing. My best friend did not see a few of his extended family (his mom and a few brothers became believers in Jesus and were baptized at a Baptist Church and are still in that denomination)”

What does the Bible say about this? Any ideas? I mean, the Roman Catholics have their excommunication, but it’s not really ever practiced. But does the Bible say anything about removing people who are not repentant or who choose to live or practice immoral things? I don’t know the specifics of what you are discussing, but so many people act as though the Bible has nothing to say about disfellowshipping ones. It does speak of this and this was practiced in the first century congregation.

“But why was his brother disfellowshipped? If his brother was in sin or something of that nature I could understand but if like my best friends brother-n-law, he was disfellowshipped for a reason that had no Biblical grounds then maybe that is why he turned?”

Do you actually know why he was disfellowshipped? People are really only disfellowshipped if they are practicing sin unrepentantly.

“I have been hated for being bold in my witnessing. I was fired from SBC for witnessing. I was written up once at a large company for posting John 3:16,17,18 on a board that was utilized by everyone.”

Interesting

“What I am saying is being hated is not evidence you are doing the right thing. Sometimes people don't hate you, they just wanna sleep in.”

When we go out on Saturdays, we are encouraged not to ring the bell until later in the morning. Sorry if that wasn’
t followed. I do understand what you are saying. I once was calling on this guy who I thought was quite nice and interested in the Bible, etc. Then he wasn’t home one day. Nor the next. Nor that afternoon, unfortunately. Nor the next day. Well, of course he was home all those days. And when he finally did answer the door, he wasn’t too happy. He could have just told me he wasn’t interested, instead of hiding.

“As I stated above I think this topic should just go away. Neither of us have exact numbers and we can therefore not calculate and come to an honest conclusion. But for the sake of the comment I will say that a kingdom hall does not cost that much.[100,000] You agree I'm sure.

I have no idea. I do know that to build a house her does cost about 125,000 in materials and fees even without the labor. So a kingdom hall, I don’t know. But you’ll notice that at the very end, I changed that figure back to your 20,000. And we’re still way over a billion!!! While I think 20,000 is really low for building a hall here, in the America’s, it may be much cheaper in other places and I expect it is.
I just realized I might be thinking in terms of Canadian dollars. But the exchange rate isn’t too much different these days. Still wouldn’t change too much.

“ I tend to wonder if maybe that is because JW's have tried so hard to distance themselves from Christianity they have removed minute things such as a word like church?”
The meanings of the word “church” today does not convey the thought of the word “congregation.” Some of the definitions are not synonymous with that word.

“After all, a word church or Church has no relevence at all in regards to serving God. But even so, a problem that has derived from that word is a misunderstanding that the word Church is referring to a building.”

Exactly. I think too that the word “church” has pagan backgrounds. That’s what people on this forum have said.

“Who receives this fifty cents a day? I think I misunderstood you I was adding fifty cents a day to the year but did not know how many people this was for. “

First, I’d like to say that your quotes got messed up and this is getting hard to understand who is talking. On what you said, I was referring to the few thousand people who work at the Brooklyn Bethel.

david

[Casey S Smith 29]

Hello David and good morning I've been up since 5am CST here in the States and I am at work getting some overtime in for Christmas. I just realized you didn't celebrate that so no offense I hope? I will try to keep it short since our mgmt. doesn't mind us using the net but I don't think it would be too fair for them to pay me for overtime if I was on the Net for hours.

So you are in Canada? Interesting. Never been there but I would like to go there. It is hot as hell (pun intended) or hades here in TX; we only have three seasons – summer, still summer, almost summer. We had over a month of 100plus degree weather and I love the cold which we don't get much of. We may have a week of the 20's and a day or two of ice and then it is back to 40+ degrees Fahrenheit. Well let's get started shall we?

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It’s what I believe your agenda is, your motives

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I don’t know that there’s any point in discussing anything with you

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One of them did this for weeks before even quoting one scripture. So, I don’t need to waste my time with people like that. Are you like that? Hard to say.

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I see little reason to make an effort to discuss these things with you

Well David I am actually sorry you feel that way. If that is what you choose then that is ok with me. I have stated this before and I will reiterate: I actually did come here for some answers. I have studied the witness literature for years. I am familiar with your concepts and beliefs. It is just that is extremely difficult to find a witness who is willing to provide me with why he is a JW and his background and testimony. You will find many of us believers (word use for the remainder as a Protestant or an adherent to current Orthodox Christian doctrine – I understand JW's use Christian so I am trying to veer away from that description) who will give there testimony. Testimony as in there life before Salvation and walking with Christ. Or their upbringing and surroundings – experiences that caused them to choose the path in seving Christ they did. What made you become a witness? You see if I was given reasons as to why a JW became a JW then I could better understand their beliefs from a practical standpoint. After all, isn't what we practice in regards to our walk more important than the beliefs behind them? Now those two are not a dichotomy but correlate. What you do believe and have convictions about will result in your practical everyday decisions and choices we make. Every JW I have met has been a cradle JW. They were raised that way and never questioned it. I however was raised Baptist and Charismatic from my parents. I do not serve in either denomination but did find some middle ground there and went further in my studies to advance me in what I believe now.

So, there is my motive…you seem to doubt most if not everything I say as true or even valid. Again, I am sorry you feel that way but que sera sera mi amigo. If that is what you have decided then I will continue on this site and have others give imput, defenses, opinions and their experiences. You seem to want to be right in everything and come of the winner, if you will. I acknowledge I am not right in all things and can compromise for the sake of discussion, if not but just to learn more. There are convictions and beliefs I held to in the past that I questioned and no longer believe. I had zeal without knowledge. I still have beliefs and convictions but my I do not hold them to be infallible and not to be tested. I am but a little puny man here on this huge Earth God gave us.

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When we come to someone’s house, we are not so interested in spending hours defending accusations that are mostly created by that many of those who hate us.

David do not take this personally but I perceive from most of your posts that you play the victom roll too many times. Your multiple comments of people hating you are spoken by you a lot. I don't think they hate you. The world? Yes, you may go to hundreds nay thousands of doors of Satan's minions under blindness and hardness of heeart who will hate you. They hate everyone. They are a mere product of their father of lies. I hate no one. A true believer does not hate a JW. I have yet to meet any. There are many sites and history of people who claim to be Christian but produce nothing hate. I am not one of them and people I know are not. They may feel you are deceived and want to help you. They care for you. If you believe that we are not in the truth, which you do, do you not want to help us? That is why you go door to door is it not? Don't worry David, they hate me too.

As to my comment and many lines of info regards to the Kingdom:

[/QUOTE]“What is the Gospel of the Kingdom sir? I am not being facetious.”

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you stated:

There’s a lot I’d like to say on your comments about this, but you do have a long post and I’d like to finish off your comments on my comments before commenting on your new comments. We should make this most important subject our next discussion.

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…but you are done with me so I am going to head in a direction I have been preparing at home.

We are not like the televangelists who live in gold houses and take money from people. With all those that hate JW’s, it would be easy to find someone who has made money, someone who has apparently retired and lives in a castle somewhere. You’ve seen all the anti-JW propaganda on the net. Surely if such a person or several people exist, it wouldn’t be too hard to find, would it?

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Why do you stereo type us so much? So some evangelists are money hungry and not true believers or the cares of the world choked them or they fell into the snare of money and then repented. Does that mean ALL OF US are like that? Of course not. Placing us all under the umbrella of money hungry – Jehovah Witness hating people is just begging the question and avoiding a mature dialogue amongst us adults.

So, you know this person “personally,” but don’t know if he was a “leader”

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If you had followed the thread, I stated the individual was my best friend's bro ther in law.

Anyway, I’m not sure how personally you know this person or how accurate your story is.

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I met him when I was 11 and did not see him again until I was 27. My best friends family were devout JW's. Most ended up leaving and some disfellowshipped for investigating “Christendom”. You implied they were disfellowshipped for being in sin and that is the only reason they disfellowhip. That is simply untrue. You can choose to believe it but regardless I know the truth and I am sure there are many more stories out there from people who can relate. I did not see him for that long because the elders did not permit them to be around their “seperated” family. No, it was not because the fear of the leaven of sin spreading. It was because they questioned the Watchtower. My best friend's brother in law was removed for spending less time going door to door and preaching at the kingdom hall and more time with his family. The kingdom halls require their members to be there too many times a week. People have jobs, they have family, they have school, they have hobbies, they go to amusement parks and other outside activities. It is merely impossible to be there for all the times demanded of them.

What does the Bible say about this? Any ideas? I mean, the Roman Catholics have their excommunication, but it’s not really ever practiced. But does the Bible say anything about removing people who are not repentant or who choose to live or practice immoral things? I don’t know the specifics of what you are discussing, but so many people act as though the Bible has nothing to say about disfellowshipping ones. It does speak of this and this was practiced in the first century congregation

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Yes, there are books written by Evangelicals that believe the very same thing. Church discpline has been on the decline for many years now and is not going to get any better. I believe that it should be inforced more often. Yet, done with consideration of all the circumstances surrounding the consideration of asking someone to leave the congregation until they repent. However, it seems that the JW's are infamous for kicking people out. I can't tell you how many times I have read, heard of and met ex-JW's who were kicked out for the pettiest reasons. They didn't need to repent because there was nothing to repent of. So you can be proud your organization disfellowships as often as they do but I wouldn't brag about it.

What I am saying is being hated is not evidence you are doing the right thing. Sometimes people don't hate you, they just wanna sleep in.”

When we go out on Saturdays, we are encouraged not to ring the bell until later in the morning. Sorry if that wasn’t followed. I do understand what you are saying. I once was calling on this guy who I thought was quite nice and interested in the Bible, etc. Then he wasn’t home one day. Nor the next. Nor that afternoon, unfortunately. Nor the next day. Well, of course he was home all those days. And when he finally did answer the door, he wasn’t too happy. He could have just told me he wasn’t interested, instead of hiding.

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I'm glad you said that because it reminded me I needed to call Aaron, the witness who came over. I had to work and he may have come over and thought I was ignoring him. Sometimes David we actually are not there. But again, you think we all hate you and are just being mean. Do some people not answer and ignore you? Sure. But be more considerate in your evaluation of why they didn't answer the door. They may have just been sleeping too hard or were in the shower. You don't leave cards or notes that you came by. Maybe you should bring that up and consider it?

Exactly. I think too that the word “church” has pagan backgrounds

I have heard of that as a rumor and being used in reference to the “Mother” Church of Rome. But I think you should elaborate more on that if you so choose to discuss with me any further.

[david]

Hi Casey. The “who are the people of the saints” thread in the General discussions questions have some comments by me you may or may not find interesting.

I'd also like to say, your last two large posts, both of them halfway through, the quotes got messed up so that all the quotes are from you and the other words are from me. This may be confusing to others who don't know what I said or what you said. It's even confusing to me, who know what I've said. I know you're not doing this on purpose, but I mention it just in case you didn't know you've been doing it.

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Testimony as in there life before Salvation and walking with Christ. Or their upbringing and surroundings – experiences that caused them to choose the path in seving Christ they did. What made you become a witness? You see if I was given reasons as to why a JW became a JW then I could better understand their beliefs from a practical standpoint.

Well, I was raised a Catholic. I'd like to begin by saying that I believe Catholicism is the most wrong religion on the planet (including the non-Chrisitian ones.) My belief that it is completely wrong in every way is so strong that it actually angers me when people try to defend it. It makes me want to scream. It causes my jaw to tighten.
I would have considered byself the average Catholic. Went to Catholic school. Went to church occasionally, but mainly during Christmas or easter and eventually only Christmas and easter. Yes, I had to go tell my sins to a priest while in school and then say 10 hail Mary's and 3 our father's or whatever in the little room by ourselves. Have you heard of the movie: “Deliver Us From Evil”? Check out the trailer. My belief in God was completely outside of my experience with Catholicism. It had nothing to do with Catholicism.
Funny. I just remembered something you're going to love. Money. Money and JW's. So my dad wasn't that fond of the Witnesses. He decided eventually to rip up our Bibles and literature and throw them away. (I still have a part of a ripped up Bible so that I remember it was real) I'm pretty sure I could have joined any other religion. My dad wasn't a big Catholic. It was my grandma, who controlled the money and controlled my dad. Anyway, I'm confusing two stories. To my grandma for a second. I walked there one day all by myself, in tears, knowing that I was about to cause a division.
LUKE 12:52-53
“For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.””
There were five in our family. My mom had been studying with JW's. And now, I was walking to my Grandmas to tell her basically that I was becoming one too. My dad was kind of hiding that fact from my grandma. She was more than happy to tell how she throws witnesses out and yells at them. But I could no longer just smile and accept birthday presents or keep silent when Christmas came around.
So, my grandma said: “you're out of the will.” First, I didn't know I was in the will. “You're whole family is out of the will,” she said. Well, we weren't really. But that's what she said.
My grandma kind of had control of my dad, her son. Eventually, as I said, he tore things up.
Jesus was right, about a mother in law and a daughter being divided.
We liked to travel, as a family. We'd often go to historic sites or old places. I'd often search out Bibles. The fact that God had a name was of interest to me. The Catholic church didn't seem to know this. Or at least, hid it well. You know, in my scrap book, I have a picture of me drawn in crayon of me and Jesus in heaven. It says that heaven is like “celebration place,” I guess that's a party we had when we were young in school.
Anyway, after my dad ripped up our Bibles, etc, I soon went to my first meeting. It was actually a convention. And someone who was there, who I hadn't met, came up to me, an elderly lady. She put something in my hand and told me she heard what I did and liked me taking the stand I did. She talked to me for a moment, and left. I opened my hand and it was a hundred dollar bill. She said to put it in the bank. I think that money was meant or should have been contributed to the society because we of course got new Bibles, new everything.
So my experience with money and JW's isn't quite what your perception is.

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David do not take this personally but I perceive from most of your posts that you play the victom roll too many times. Your multiple comments of people hating you are spoken by you a lot.

I didn't realize. I'll try to pay attention to that.

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…but you are done with me so I am going to head in a direction I have been preparing at home.

Oh, I'm “done with you.” Ok. I get the feeling you would have headed in that direction regardless.

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People have jobs, they have family, they have school, they have hobbies, they go to amusement parks and other outside activities.

MATTHEW 24:37-39
“For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”

As that day draws nearer, we need ever more encouragement. Encouragement from the stresses of Satan's world.
HEBREWS 10:24-25
“And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”

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The kingdom halls require their members to be there too many times a week. People have jobs, they have family, they have school, they have hobbies, they go to amusement parks and other outside activities. It is merely impossible to be there for all the times demanded of them.

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My best friend's brother in law was removed for spending less time going door to door and preaching at the kingdom hall and more time with his family.

Listen. He would pretty much have to say: “I would prefer to not go door to door or to come to kingdom halls.” No, acutally if he said that he would have simply “dissasociated” himself from JW's. He certainly wouldn't be disfellowshipped FOR WHAT YOU SAY.
Listen, you do not get disfellowshipped sim
ply for not going from door to door or missing every single meeting. You do then, then its as though you drifted away. It's not people who drift away. It's people who actively rebel or go against or apostacize themselves towards God's organization that are disfellowshipped. (or those who make a practice of sinning unrepentantly)
What you are telling me is only a part of the story and not the part that matters. SO IT ALMOST ALWAYS IS WITH SUCH STORIES. There are about 100,000 of these stories floating around. They are second or third hand mostly, and mostly half true. Sure, there is some truth in a lot of them. But not the whole story.

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It was because they questioned the Watchtower.

Ya, so here's probably what this is actually based on. A little sentence, in among a much larger paragraph. It makes it seem like it's one thing, when this little sentence should be much more expanded on. If he was disfellowshipped, I guaranttee you it was not simply because he wasn't going from door to door or not coming to the meetings. You have to actively try to turn others away from Jehovah's organization or to actively rebel or basically make yourself and choose to become an enemy to God's people in order to be disfellowshipped. And in that case, why would you care if you were disfellowshipped?

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However, it seems that the JW's are infamous for kicking people out.

Yes, we're one of the only groups who practices this Biblical Christian practice. Many religions have leaders who are openly gay, or practice whatever. This is ludacris. What does the Bible say? Listen, if you practice sin OR decide to fight Jehovah's organization or turn other people away, then you will be removed, in accorance with scripture.

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They may have just been sleeping too hard or were in the shower. You don't leave cards or notes that you came by. Maybe you should bring that up and consider it?

We do sometimes and we can. But we prefer to speak to you individually, so most often we just come back. I guess it depends how well we know you. The more often we call on your door, the more likely we'll leave a note or phone you. And yes, we know people are sometimes in the shower. Sometimes too, people answer the door with their phone in their hand telling us they're just on the phone and busy….and then their phone rings. Awkward.

david

[Debra]

Hi David
I loved your testimony, thank you for shareing it.
I have to say I've learn't alot since first posting.I do have a passion for learning,so hearing about the JW's from a JW is refreshing.
When I first became a believer I immediatly saw the contrast between believer and non believer. I came out of a cult, I've been a Christian nearly 10 years, still a baby compared to most of you, I say that because of your great knowledge (Scripture),I didn't have a Christian education in the home,but went to Sunday school. When I was 5 ,my greatgrandmother was still alive, and she put the fear of God in me, she was a Christian/Spiritualist, so I grew up with a passion for both.But by the Grace of God, I was saved from pursuing the ways not of God.
My question's to you are not to verify what I think I know about
JW's. They are things I've wondered about for years regarding JW's.
I have another question…
Is your hope, that when you knock on someones door, they will become JW's after hearing the Word of God, or wouldn't it matter as long as they hear the Word?

[david]

Hi Debra. You ask:

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Is your hope, that when you knock on someones door, they will become JW's after hearing the Word of God, or wouldn't it matter as long as they hear the Word?

There are exactly 2 reasons go from door to door with the good news. Here is WHY we do what we do:

MATTHEW 22:37-39
“He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Because of love for God, we obey his Word, his inspired command:
MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””

We believe that “he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness . . .” (Acts 10:42)

The command to “Go” and make disciples is a command from Jesus to his disciples. Notice that part of the command was to teach the new disciples all that Jesus taught. That would include the command to “Go” and make disciples. New disciples would continuously be taught Jesus commands, including this “order to preach.”

So that's reason number 1. We love Jehovah God and so obey his commands.
Reason number 2 would be that we love our neighbor. And since we know what's coming we want to warn as many people as possible, everywhere. People deserve to hear this. It's good news. The greatest news. It should be shared with everyone.

In regards to your question, here's something to think about:

EZEKIEL 33:8-9
“When I [Jehovah] say to someone wicked, ‘O wicked one, you will positively die!’ but you actually do not speak out to warn the wicked one from his way, he himself as a wicked one will die in his own error, but his blood I shall ask back at your own hand. But as regards you, in case you actually warn someone wicked from his way [for him] to turn back from it but he actually does not turn back from his way, he himself will die in his own error, whereas you yourself will certainly deliver your own soul.”

EZEKIEL 3:18-19
“When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.”

In Canada we have something called the good samaritan act. It protects people who try to help other people. If someone is lying on the street and you try to help, you can't be sued even if you somehow do harm, as long as you are trying to help the best you can.

So, Debra. Imagine. Imagine that you are a doctor. You're walking down the street. You see someone fall to the ground in front of you. He's having a heart attack. You keep walking. Are you bloodguilty? You didn't kill him. But you didn't try to help him. And you are a doctor, with special life saving knowledge.

Notice Paul's words:
ACTS 20:26-27
“Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, for I have not held back from telling YOU all the counsel of God.” (Compare 1 Tim 4:16)

Paul was not bloodguilty. Why?

ACTS 20:20-21
“while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house. But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.”

Notice the way Paul reasoned:
1 CORINTHIANS 9:23
“But I do all things for the sake of the good news, that I may become a sharer of it with [others].”

1 CORINTHIANS 9:16
“If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, WOE IS ME IF I DID NOT DECLARE THE GOOD NEWS!”

And now Debra, notice Paul's words:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:1
“Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ.”

And what did Christ do while on earth, primarily? Sure, he healed. But he was not ever known as a healer. He's repeatedly called a teacher. Notice why he was sent forth.
LUKE 4:43
“But he said to them: “Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth.””

Repeatedly, it is stated that he went declaring the good news of the kingdom. His followers would do the same. In fact, Christ fortold that in our time, that great work would be being done by his followers:

MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

A lot of people make the accusation that the reason we're coming to their door is to convert them. Of course we want them to come to an accurate understanding of the Bible. Our primary purpose for being there is to bring them good news. How they react to that is up to them. For those that don't listen, we feel it is sort of like a warning work.

Notice how Jesus said most would react:
In the same speech where he mentioned the good news of the kingdom being preached in all the nations before the end comes, he said this:

MATTHEW 24:37-39
“For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”

So generally speaking, people will take no note of the warning/good news that is being delivered. It will be too late for most. Most will take no note. They are too busy making money, or building houses or getting married or other normal affairs of life. So we don't expect most to listen. We expect most to take no note of the danger.

I hope this answers your question

david.

[Debra]

HI David
So are you saying that as long as the people you witness too take heed of the warning and believe the Word of God, it dosn't matter that they might decide not to become Baptized into Jesus by JW's?
I ask this because..
Before I was a believer, my husband believed, Every weekend for about a month, 2 men JW's, one a trainee about 21, the other about 40ish would visit us. My husband used to invite them back every week, he was so hungrey for knowledge and he had some very definate ideas of how things went himself so the discussion would go round and round in circles and they would talk for ages. I was always in the background doing stuff, but in earshot of what was being discussed.and the issues they disagreed on were the 144000 and the doing without lifestyle(Christmas & Easter, birthdays, types of music, he thought to legalistic for him.There were other things that I can't remember now, after awhile I sat in on the discussions, but my input was largely passed over because of my lack of Biblical knowledge, neither one of them had a clue what I was on about, my beliefs, were based in the Occult.
When it became apparent my husband decided not to become a JW the next visit was with an elder, not the young guy.
JW's didn't come again, until after I believed about 2 years later, and it was 2 women this time, I've told you about them.

[david]

HI Debra,

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So are you saying that as long as the people you witness too take heed of the warning and believe the Word of God, it dosn't matter that they might decide not to become Baptized into Jesus by JW's?

As Jesus said, this must be done for the purpose of a “witness to all the nations,” whether they accept the message or not. (Mat 24:14)

God will hold all humans accountable for their deeds, whether they accept his Word, the Holy Bible, or not.—2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9

We are just messengers. But we are messengers with a most wonderful message and we gladly share it with others.

John said:
“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments,” including the commandment to preach the good news and make disciples.—1 John 5:3; Matthew 28:19, 20.

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So are you saying that as long as the people you witness too take heed of the warning and believe the Word of God, it dosn't matter that they might decide not to become Baptized into Jesus by JW's?

I'm saying that we deliver a message. As far as does it matter, doesn't it–it depends what you mean. We meet an athiest. He rejects our message. Does it matter? Well yes. It's sad, and it matters. But what can we do? We have followed the command to “go” as Jesus said and make disciples. We do not force people to convert as some religions have done in the past.

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for about a month, 2 men JW's, one a trainee about 21,

A trainee. That's an interesting term. We are all trainee's Debra. We are all learning and growing.

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My husband used to invite them back every week, he was so hungrey for knowledge and he had some very definate ideas of how things went himself so the discussion would go round and round in circles and they would talk for ages. I was always in the background doing stuff, but in earshot of what was being discussed.and the issues they disagreed on were the 144000 and the doing without lifestyle(Christmas & Easter, birthdays, types of music, he thought to legalistic for him.There were other things that I can't remember now, after awhile I sat in on the discussions, but my input was largely passed over because of my lack of Biblical knowledge, neither one of them had a clue what I was on about, my beliefs, were based in the Occult.

It's sad if you feel you were passed over. But being that your husband was wanting to discuss the Bible, and being that JW's don't know a lot or anything about the occult, there's not a lot we could discuss, other than to tell you what the Bible says about being involved in such things, and that's something you may have taken badly, if you weren't really involved in the discussions.

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When it became apparent my husband decided not to become a JW the next visit was with an elder, not the young guy. JW's didn't come again, until after I believed about 2 years later, and it was 2 women this time, I've told you about them.

If your husband told them: “Listen I'm not interested in this. I'm not going to ever become a JW,” then that could have been taken badly. I don't know exactly what was said.
Here's what I know. As long as someone is willing to discuss the Bible and in a non-confrontational way and as long as their motive isn't to attack us, then we are willing to talk, about the Bible and the good news. I don't know what transpired with your husband. We do often go in service with different people, not the same always. Perhaps the other one came along that last time in an attempt to answer questions better than the others. Bringing a new face in always opens things up in different ways. But if your husband made it clear that he wasn't interested to the elder, then no, they wouldn't come back.
Here's the deal. We call on people for years sometimes. Our goal is to bring you the Bible based message of the good news. How you respond does dictate where we go with the conversation or if the conversation continues. If you made it clear you weren't interested, then we would leave you alone, for a couple years or however long.
But just telling someone that you don't want to become a JW is definitely not reason enough to end our conversations. This is definitley true because most whom we've studied with that have become JW's have said they would never become one, and definitely wouldn't go from door to door. Yet, with more learning, they changed this view.

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So are you saying that as long as the people you witness too take heed of the warning and believe the Word of God, it dosn't matter that they might decide not to become Baptized into Jesus by JW's?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting it doesn't matter where you get baptized. Catholic infant baptism is completely unscriptural and just wrong, for example.
Being from an occult background, you should know that demonism is strong. The Bible calls Satan the “ruler of this world,” a few times. It says the “whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” So we must be careful that we are not mislead.
If Satan could not destroy true Christianity, the simplest thing to do would be to set up other forms of false religion, counterfeit. This is what he has done. (mat 13:24-30)

So, Debra, what made you become a “believer”? Why did you leave the occult?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You quote
“John said:
“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments,” including the commandment to preach the good news and make disciples.—1 John 5:3; Matthew 28:19, 20.”

Does this save you or do you need to be reborn from above yourself first before making disciples of others lest you leave them in a worse condition than when you found them?

Matt 23
“Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.”

[Oxy]

I have had quite a number of JW's knocking on my door over the years. Whenever I've had the time I discuss with them the things of God. What saddens me is that I have never yet met a JW that has had a born again experience. When I ask them for their testimony they have no answer for me. And then when I share with them how God radically changed my life they don't want to know. This really saddens me. If they were born again and filled with the Holy Spirit they would be a force to be reckoned with and would contribute so much to the Kingdom of God.

[david]

Hi Oxy. Glad to hear from you.
When we come across someone who tells us they've been born again, (and there are many such people) it usually means that they believe they'll someday be with Christ in heaven.
Yet, when we ask them what they'll be doing there with him, they have this blank look on their face. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10)
And too, what people mean by being born again is not always the same.
When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5)
The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:29)

I'd like to say this and say it loudly and clearly. Not everyone who thinks they are born again are. Most aren't. There are divisions, fighting, killing, blood, hatred, different doctrines, etc, between groups claiming to be born again. As Jesus said, many would be saying “lord lord,” but it would mean nothing. They would really think they were on Jesus side, but their fruits would show them otherwise.

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I have had quite a number of JW's knocking on my door over the years.

Hey Oxy. Just curious how many other groups felt the Bible message was important enough to come to discuss with you? If you could please name them:
JW's, possibly Mormons, etc.

Could you do that for me?

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And then when I share with them how God radically changed my life they don't want to know.

So Oxy… um.. let me see, what can I ask you….how did God….change your life radically?

[NickHassan]

Hi david
“When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5)
The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:29)”

Are these your original thoughts, or JW doctrine?
So where is this human heavenly government shown in Scripture?
Does God need help?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 24 2006,07:49)

I have had quite a number of JW's knocking on my door over the years.  Whenever I've had the time I discuss with them the things of God.  What saddens me is that I have never yet met a JW that has had a born again experience.  When I ask them for their testimony they have no answer for me.  And then when I share with them how God radically changed my life they don't want to know.  This really saddens me.  If they were born again and filled with the Holy Spirit they would be a force to be reckoned with and would contribute so much to the Kingdom of God.

Oxy, they have to get their theology straight first, putting your faith in Michael the Archangel will not save you….

David, you're a nice guy and I like you a lot but you have to understand that you have been duped….

[Proclaimer]

In my experience I see more Mormons than JWs going about preaching their doctrine. But the Mormons probably stand out more as they wear suits and have badges. They like to ask where are your apostles and prophets, when they find out that you are a christian. But my usual answer is that my life is built on top of the foundation that the apostles, prophets, and Jesus laid. So I just see their foundation as another foundation built on different apostles.

But when I was a young man questioning and searching the truth, I had encounters with many cults and many denominations. It was like the enemy knew I was leaving him to serve the Almighty. So he threw all manor of cults and sects at me to trap me or confuse me. He truly over played his hand and I could tell you many a story of this bizzare time.

Back then I was very vulnerable due to my little understanding of scripture. Yet the Spirit of God led me away from those who would deceive me into joining THEIR organisation and perhaps get 10% of my income in the process. Rather I truly was led by the Spirit as I was truly seeking the truth. But I did err at times and joined denominations. But these experiences only strengthened my understanding that they were wrong.

Early on, God led me to people and that helped me immensly. The ones that truly discipled me were the ones that were not trying to convert me to a particular denomination. They were the ones who were interested in in helping me serve God, not a man-made organisation. I thank God for these people and may they help many others too.

Now as a young man, I received Spirit of God and I was born from above. From that day, I was connected to God by spirit and he spoke to me (even audibly once) but mainly in visions. This I cannot deny, but I can only think that JWs would conclude that my life and experience with God is but a deception for it surely doesn't line up with their doctrines.

But I have scripture on my side.

Romans 8:14
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Simply put: When I was born from above (born again) I had a whole new set of desires. Desires that were about pleasing God. A new spirit was placed within me. It transformed me. My flesh was still as sinful as ever, but I was able for the first time to be led by the spirit and overcome the flesh. My relationship with God at my conversion was not imagination. It was real. He even spoke to me audibly once and adhering to his words saved my life. Other times he has spoken to me by vision, conviction, through scripture, and through others.

This wonderful life was given to me without the aid of a denomination or agency. Rather it was those who served God that helped me. I wouldn't return to my old life because it would mean giving up what God has given me. It would truly be like a dog returning to his own vomit.

Given what God has given me, I would consider myself to be a fool, if I were to become a Mormon, JW, Catholic, or any other sect, denomination, or cult.

I simply wouldn't do it.

Someone trying to convert me to a man-made orgainsation has little chance. But I know that man-made organisations have a better chance with someone who knows little. Someone who is just starting on the road of faith. Someone who is immature enough to think that following men will lead them to God.

I pray that all who come here and who sincerely seek the truth will be protected by God and preserved in the truth. I pray that the enemy will touch them not. I pray that the organisations of men will not get their greedy hands on them and disciple them away from God and take their money. I pray that they will be able to stand against the world and the schemes of the evil one.

Amen.

[Author]

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