Jehovah's Witness Church

This topic is empty.

Viewing 20 posts - 301 through 320 (of 847 total)

Author
Posts

October 19, 2006 at 4:50 am#30818

Participant

Do Jehovah's Witnesses resort to fund-raising dinners, collection envelopes, canvassing for funds, and similar ways of raising money?

No, true Christians do not have to be coerced or bribed into giving by having prizes dangled in front of them. Religious groups that resort to bingo, bazaars, raffles, carnivals, the renting of pews, or the passing of collection plates reveal that they have not given their people spiritual food, and so God’s spirit does not move their parishioners freely to contribute funds. The same could be said of those who resort to the outdated practice of tithing.—Matthew 10:8.

How do you finance projects such as the construction of new Kingdom Halls and branch offices, as well as your expansion at the world headquarters in Brooklyn and at Patterson, New York?

Jehovah pours out his holy spirit upon his Witnesses, enabling them “to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be liberal, ready to share, safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, in order that they may get a firm hold on the real life.” (1 Timothy 6:18, 19) This spirit motivates Jehovah’s Witnesses to support the Kingdom work in every way.
As I've said before, while the materials cost money, we have people in all trades and they aren't paid to build the kingdom halls. They volunteer. And because of the willing spirit to help, and the ability to follow direction, our kingdom halls are generally built in 3 days (minus the foundation.) It often surprises people who go away for the weekend and come back and there's an entirely new building across the street. And we've grown by 30,000 congregations in the past 15 years. So I'd guess that's about 15,000-20,000 kingdom halls that were built. (Some congregations share.)
A similar spirit of giving motivates Witnesses and interested persons to support the work in a financial way. Apart from helping defray the regular costs of their local congregation, they support any construction work that may become necessary, such as renovating or enlarging their Kingdom Hall or Assembly Hall or building a new one. Each year, because of rapid growth, a large number of Kingdom Halls have to be built, some even costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. The expense of these is borne by the local Witnesses through their voluntary contributions and labor.
Further, in many lands branch printing and office facilities as well as residence buildings have had to be extended—or new ones built—to accommodate the increased staff and facilities demanded by the growing organization. This too is supported by voluntary donations and labor, as are the building and renovation projects in Brooklyn and in Patterson, New York. Where possible, local Witnesses finance the construction. In some cases, the Watch Tower Society arranges for branches to receive help—both financial and in the form of skilled labor—from other lands. Thus, under the direction of the Society, “an equalizing” takes place.—2 Corinthians 8:14.

Do any of the Watch Tower Society’s officers or members make money from your extensive printing activities?

Emphatically, no! By law, the Society is a nonprofit corporation. Casey quotes something that showed that in his last long post. There are no stockholders, no dividends, not even salaries. Each minister at headquarters, including the Society’s president and directors, has taken a legal vow of poverty. He receives food, shelter, and necessary medical care, as well as a small reimbursement of money for out-of-pocket expenses. If a Witness travels on Society business, his travel expenses are usually covered.
Early today I was thinking about this and that is the only thing I could come up with, as far as money goes–free travel.

In addition, nowhere in the world do our ministers charge for performing weddings, baptisms, or funerals. And there are no admission charges or collections at public lectures or conventions.

SO, I'M DONE TALKING WITH CASEY ABOUT THIS until he can show me a Jehovah's Witness Bethalite who lives in a house (not even a fancy house, just a house.)

Casey's claims, which have been parroted before are designed to mislead. Jehovah's Witnesses are doing an extraordinary work: Preaching the good news of God's kingdom in the entire inhabited earth, as Jesus fortold. This requires financing.

I wonder if Casey had to pay to go to his Religion school.

Our Theocratic Minsitry school is free. Our Gilead school is free. Our Ministerial Training School is free. Our School for Travelling Overseers if free. Our School for Branch Committee Overseers is free. Our Pioneer Service school, free.

Since everything we offer is without charge, including our literature, our schools, our everything, it's odd how we are so interested in making money. Odd indeed. One would think that if you wanted to make money, you'd charge fees for things.

Anyway, as stated, we are a non-profit organization. Casey mentioned a few thousand who lived in Bethal. I happen to know that they recieve a small, and I mean small allowance (to buy things like toothpaste) every month. And if as Casey would suggest, the higher ups are getting a billion dollars, then how could the other thousands who live with them and who are making 50 cents a day stand it?

Yes, an extraordinary amount of money is required to do this extraordinary thing:
MARK 13:10
“Also, in ALL THE NATIONS the good news has to be preached first.”

david

October 19, 2006 at 4:59 am#30819

david

Participant

“On one occasion I was called upon by a minister of the Reformed church. He wanted to know how I managed my church. I said to him: . . . ‘We pay no salaries; there is nothing to make people quarrel. We never take up a collection.’ ‘How do you get the money?’ he asked. I replied, ‘Now, Dr.——, if I tell you what is the simplest truth you will hardly be able to believe it. When people get interested in this way, they find no basket placed under their nose. But they see there are expenses. They say to themselves, “This hall costs something. . . . How can I get a little money into this cause?”’ He looked at me as if he thought, ‘What do you take me for—a greenhorn?’ I said, ‘Now, Dr.——, I am telling you the plain truth. . . . When one gets a blessing and has any means, he wants to use it for the Lord. If he has no means, why should we prod him for it?’”

—Charles T. Russell, first president of the Watch Tower Society, “The Watch Tower,” July 15, 1915.

October 19, 2006 at 5:16 am#30820

david

Participant

There are no emotional appeals for funds in their congregations or at their conventions. No collection plates are passed; no envelopes in which to put money are distributed; no letters of solicitation are sent to congregation members. Congregations never resort to bingo or raffles to raise funds. As early as 1894, when the Watch Tower Society sent out traveling speakers, it published this notice for the benefit of everyone: “Let it be understood from the first that collections or other solicitations of money are neither authorized nor approved by this Society.”

Thus, since very early in their modern-day history, handbills and other printed invitations to the public to attend the meetings of Jehovah’s Witnesses have carried the slogan “Seats Free. No Collections.”

My dad who is a Roman Catholic was quite angry when his mom, my grandma was ….weasled out of thousands of dollars from the Catholic church. It's really sad.

I remember being in the Catholic church as the basket was passed around. All the heads would stare and turn as the baskt went. Everyone could see what everyone else put in. How great was that. It is a dirty tactic.

the comment by Tertullian regarding meetings held by people who were endeavoring to practice Christianity in his day (c.155–after 220 C.E.) is interesting. He wrote: “Even if there is a chest of a sort, it is not made up of money paid in entrance-fees, as if religion were a matter of contract. Every man once a month brings some modest coin—or whenever he wishes, and only if he does wish, and if he can; for nobody is compelled; it is a voluntary offering.” (Apology, XXXIX, 5)

During the centuries since then, however, the churches of Christendom have engaged in every conceivable money-raising scheme to finance their activities.

Yet, oddly, in a very twisted manner, Jehovah's Witnesses are accused of being a money making machine, when the exact opposite is true.

As I said earlier, about a billion magazines are printed every year. Well, that's not all. Let's look at the numbers for 2005:

Worldwide, the following publications were printed for study and distribution:

• Books (including Bibles): 47,490,247

• Booklets: 6,834,740

• Brochures: 167,854,462

• Calendars: 5,405,955

• Magazines: 1,179,266,348

• Tracts: 440,995,740

• Videos: 3,168,611

Printing is done in Africa, North, Central, and South America, Asia, Europe, and island nations of the Pacific—a total of 19 countries.

Following are some of the building projects undertaken to support the activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses, in the past year:

• Kingdom Halls in lands with limited resources: 2,180

• Assembly Halls: 15

• Branches: 10

A number of Christians serve in the evangelizing work or in Bethel homes full-time. Some full-time volunteers are supported by voluntary contributions. Among these are the following:

• Missionaries: 2,635

• Traveling overseers: 5,325

• Bethelites: 20,092

So how much does it cost to print 1.2 billion magazines, 47 million books, etc? How much does it cost to build 2000 kingdom halls? Etc. Etc, etc. My guess is… a billion dollars.

October 19, 2006 at 5:33 am#30821

david

Participant

Quote

I am serious about teaching with the evidence of investing time, money, and effort in acheiving a goal. Kingdom agendas…kingdom agendas…kingdom agendas…Do you not live on earth. Do you never work. Do you not care about the ocean, the sky, space, medicine, health care, mankind, weather, and the like? Apparantly not. Apparantly these things are just for worldly people.

–Casey

I care about these other things. But,

MATTHEW 6:30-33
“If, now, God thus clothes the vegetation of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much rather clothe YOU, YOU with little faith? So never be anxious and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or, ‘What are we to drink?’ or, ‘What are we to put on?’ For all these are the things the nations are eagerly pursuing. For YOUR heavenly Father knows YOU need all these things. “Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these [other] things will be added to YOU.”

Education is fine. It's just, for many people, they step on the wheel, the wheel that the mouse is on and when they step on this treadmill, they can't get off. They need more. More money, more material possessions, more titles, more pride, more everything. Not saying that this happens to everyone. But what did Jesus say.

If you're learning Greek and Hebrew to help you understand the Bible, great. But are you just learning greek or are you learning greek from a religious school which will teach you their religious thinking and tell you how to interpret certain Biblical verses?

Keep in mind that Satan is, he actually truly is the ruler of this world. Think about that. Do you believe it? Jesus said the ruler of this world is coming and he has no hold on me. He said the ruler of this world has been judged and he said the ruler of the world will be cast out. He was speaking of Satan, whom the Bible says: “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” 2 Corinthians 4 tells us that he's the god of this system of things. The “god” of this world and that he's blinded mens' minds. Revelation tells us that he's misleading the “entire inhabited earth.”
Think about what all this means. He's the ruler of the authority of the air.
That's why Jesus said he was “no part of this world,” why his followers are to be “no part of this world,” why his kingdom is “no part of this world.”
Satan (“opposer, resister”) wants to turn people away from serving Jehovah. He is the Devil (“slanderer”), and he uses the world to slander God's people.
He has blinded mens minds to the truth.
And he wants people to step on his path, the wide, easy path. That's why it's so important to be focused and to be focused on God's kingdom and his righteousness. The world, appropriately, Satan's world, has a way of influencing people for the worse. We must be cautious.

david

October 19, 2006 at 5:47 am#30822

david

Participant

The Watch Tower Society publishes Bible literature in over 230 languages, as well as in Braille for the blind and videos in sign language for the deaf. That requires teams of translators and proofreaders in each language. Just to think of doing all this work, especially for the Watchtower magazine, which is published each month in 121 languages and simultaneously in 101 of them, staggers the imagination.

October 19, 2006 at 5:57 am#30823

NickHassan

Participant

Hi david,
How do you qualify for the 144,000?
Have you ever looked at a JW doctrine in view of your knowledge of scripture and said to yourself
Hmmmm
dunno about that one
or is all perfection to you?

October 19, 2006 at 7:20 am#30825

Debra

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2006,05:19)

Quote

HI David
Ok..This is what I think your telling me..
Luke 12:32.The little flock,are Jehovah's Witnesses because..
Matthew 25:31-46.. Jehovah's Witnesses the only ones who fit the bill because of their works.
Romans 6:3-5 .JW's are the joint heirs and the rest of us believers are goats.

JW's are not the only ones who spread the Word and study their Bibles and do good works.
I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity.
I choose to follow the Bible's teaching, and test the spirit behind all other teachings on the Word. JW's interpretation dosn't sit right with me, but I appreciate your time and effort to answer my question.
God bless you David.

Debra, what I'm telling you is the little flock are given the kingdom, as the scripture says. A kingdom is a government run by a king. Only a little flock need make up those who rule in this government, just like only a limited number need be in your countries government.

Those who make up the kingdom are to be kings and judges and priests. Therefore, they need someone to judge and rule over. Don't they? Don't they?
Of course, these ones who rule are not the only ones the Bible speaks of. Jesus said that he had “other sheep.”
After mentioning the 144,000, a “great crowd” is mentioned. The “joint heirs” you mentioned are those who make up the little flock who recieve the kingdom–Christ's brothers. They are joint heirs of the kingdom. Not everyone needs to be a king in this kingdom or to be given this kingdom. It will rule over mankind.

Debra, let me ask you this. Jesus fortold:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

Who all have come to you to discuss this kingdom? Did one of Casey's evangelical people come visit you? Did they come with the kingdom message? And are they unitedly preaching this message worldwide?

Debra, I truly believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones in the world fulfilling this scripture. They came to you. You know this. How many others have? And if they have, what did they discuss?
And if you moved to a village in the other side of the world, would you not find the same message being brought to you by the same people?

Quote

JW's are not the only ones who spread the Word and study their Bibles and do good works.

Yes, the mormon's spread their word, and do so for 2 years, if I'm right. 7 out of 10 of them are in North and South America. But I guess they're growing and expanding.
Other than the mormon's, I haven't seen people making an effort to reach other people. I've ran into the mormons a few times while I was going from door to door. That's the only other group, and I know this because I'm out there, doing it.
I have never had anyone come to me to make an effort to discuss the Bible or to tell me about God's kingdom.
I have studied with Mormons before. In the book of Nephi, not sure what chapter, but verses 28 and 29 (I know, this isn't helpful) it explains how their books are meant to support the Bible. But I've found things that clearly contradict it.

Quote

I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity.

As Rejoycsing, who started this thread said:
“I am studying every criticism that I hear about them. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. I also noticed that people who know nothing of the JWs have an unexplained vehement anger toward them. This continues to amaze me.“
Some of what is said is actually true. Much is not. But I'm getting tired of people who come on this thread and only want to bash JW's. Even though they believe in the trinity, they don't go on the trinity thread and discuss it…they discuss it here. Same with everything else. Every 5 months or so, there's someone like that–Someone who's only goal seems to be to speak ill of JW's.

david

Hi David
Yes I do understand what your saying. It's like too many cooks spoil the broth, only a limited number is required to keep things orderly in the Kingdom. But isn't there only 1 king governing over the judges and priests, not kings?er
Anyway I have no problem with” what is written,” the answer you have given me to my question, has made things clear. You are a Jehovahs Witness, you believe what you do because it sits right with you, I'm not a Jehovahs Witness because it dosn't sit right with me.
We also discussed the women who came to my door.
I think the reason they havn't been back is because there is no doubt in my mind that I'm saved.I didn't ask them not to come back. There was another 2 who came about 2 years ago, I forgot about them sorry. they were an older couple, lovely people, we talked for awhile, they left the Watchtower and left.

October 19, 2006 at 7:37 am#30826

Debra

Participant

David
In my community there are many churches, the church I go to is an Anglican, I also visit from time to time other churches and they have their differant ways of spreading the Word, none of them doorknock unless it's to give a hand in some needed way. For instance, trees fall quite often where I live, and sometimes on peoples houses and not only Christians houses, there are a team of men and women in our church, that the community a large know are there for them in times of trouble, a single mum's house is destroyed, she and the kids have nowhere to go, there is always somewhere in someones home, ours included. No we don't doorknock, we are busy with other Kingdom work. I don't concider what we do is anything beyond what we are all asked to do as Christians, look after widows and children, feed and clothe those who have nothing, listen to what they are saying, and show them the face of Jesus and do to others as you would want done for you.

October 19, 2006 at 5:49 pm#30836

Casey S Smith 29

Participant

Quote

As far as college, secularly, that's completely up to the individual. But many Jehovah's Witnesses do not find comfort in higher paying jobs that require more time. We are focused on preaching God's kingdom. Money is not our goal.

But then you say:

Quote

I remember watching a tv show showing a JW lawyer in Bethal who was handling a case. The interviewer asked the lawyer how much he was being paid

But yesteday you likewise said:

Quote

You're right. I don't have a degree written in ink from some worldly university

So which is it David? Universities are needed for JW's that are Doctor's and lawyers…but Universities are not needed for JW's??? I don't get it. Either JW's go to school like everyone else in the world that has to attain scholastic training for their field or they don't. You speak of Universities in negative connotations…”worldy” & “piece of paper with ink”…but yet, your fellow brother who is a servant of your Jehovah would admonish you for making such unfounded statements.

Quote

Yes, we're up there on the list. Printing Bibles and literature for the world in an effort to preach the good news of Gods kingdom to all the nations would take a lot, wouldn't it?

Clarify to some who don't have the time to read the whole thread and are new here. What list? The TOP 25 WEALTHIEST INUSTRIES list.

Now how many other companies on their are religious organizations who file non-profit? Now, I am presenting myself vulnerable here. I have not looked up that previous question. So, I am going to make a presumption that there are no religious organizations aside from the Watchtower on the list or ANY list of being the wealthiest industry. Prove me wrong. You may be able to.

It seems to be an oxy moron. A billion dollar industry that is NON profit. That sounds like a HUGE profit revenue to me.

Quote

The one who assumes a net profit of 10%

I don't tithe not believe in the dogma of tithing. It is unfounded in the NT and falls along the lines of giving reluctantly since most don't want to give the 10% but feel they HAVE To, which Paul spoke of as giving in vain.

Quote

I am studying every criticism that I hear about them. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. I also noticed that people who know nothing of the JWs have an unexplained vehement anger toward them.

Well, I hope I am not included in this accusation. I have no anger nor do I feel I treat JW's vehemently. David if you have felt I unfoundedly made misrepresntations of the Watchtower and it's adherents, show me and I will gladly, humble apologize and retract. I may have…people like you and I who are as passionate for truth, or passionate in searching for truth or searching for Jesus who is the Truth (Watchtower agrees with mestating that Jesus is the Key of Truth), sometimes our emotions will overtake our intellect and thereby overriding any self control we might have needed to use. However, I seperte myself from those who are angry with witnesses without any defense to give. Witnesses get a bad rap (do you like rap? ) unfounded most of the time.

Their are too many slothful, ignorant, lazy, nominal Christians who want everyone else to do their homework for them. Back in highschool those people were labeled fairly, cheaters and lazy kids. Most ended up flunking out of school or dropping out. Others somehow by means of paying many people to do their work and tests for them graduated highschool only to find out that in the real world you can't get by very well not knowing how to read and basic arithmatic. Those people are likened to lazy Christians. They hear rumors about JW's and they will not investigate those claims. There are too many supposed “servants” for YHWH/Yeshua who have taken their talent and hid it in the ground.

Quote

“Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.”
Show me where I have spoken ill of a JW.

Nick: The comment I made weeks ago here were hasty. I did not thoroughly read the entire thread you posted and misrepresented your statements.

Quote

Debra, I truly believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones in the world fulfilling this scripture.

David that is a very bold statement. I will admit that witnesses are very persistant in their door knocking. But what is their motive? What truly lies behind the the intentions of these witnesses of going from door to door? Are we going to be judged by good works for entrance into the Kingdom of God? Did not Jesus say in Mathew 7, “Many will say to me on That Day…didn't we do great WORKS in your Name?” What is His response? I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART! Did he say, “no you didn't”? No, he did not deny they did great works in His Name. But He insisted He never knew them. Not He did know them and He forgot, or that He knew them in the past once…HE NEVER knew them! Jesus said that we are going to be judged by our motives not merely our deeds but the motives BEHIND THE DEEDS. If I started a denomination and upon entry into that denomination you had to adhere to certain requirements that I have deemed as necessary upon worshipping God (or in this case Jehovah), those who truly believed they HAD TO DO IT…WOULD DO IT! If I can just get two people to believe what I have to say is true I can get more. Those two can proselyze two who can recruit two who can….etc,etc. It is a very successful marketing techinque that makes Mulit-level Marketing Industries very wealthy and monetarily successful. All I need is the very least of two people.
Follow me here David I pray you. I believe the reason you don't have a majority (not all for myself and tons of tohers like me witness almost every where we go…stores, gas stations, people on the streets, homeless,
hitchhikers and so forth) of Protestant groups following your method is a very simple answer – Motive. We Protestants adhere to a very peaceful and nondemanding, non guilt-trip ridden, without reverse psycholigical constraints. Here is what they are:

Grace – Undeserved, unearned, wihtout merit wihtout personal choice. Grace is administered by God and conferred upon the dead man or woman (spiritually dead). They are regenerated by the Spirit of the Living God (rheuma) according to election giving him a reborn Spirit according to John 3:3 by wich NOONE will enter the Kingdom of God.

Faith: Faith is the evidence of the Grace that has been instilled within the new believer. The Spirit testifies with the believer that he or she is born of God. The outflow of faith will lead to good works according to James. Faith that is not evidence by works is dead faith and most likely not a genuine conversion or doubtful at best. Works do not save anyone but works justify faith. Abraham was considered righteous as a Gentile prior to circumcision based upon the fact that he believed God and it was reckoned or credited to him as righteousness so he is the father of us all according to faith. James continues with Paul's thought in Romans by saying in his letter that Paul was justified by his works. Now was James contradicting Paul? By no means! James was simply saying that your confession of belief is not exactly the basis of your salvation, but it is the outward manifestation of that faith that PROVES you are justified. Paul was righteous before his works. What were his works? Many, but James emphasizes his obediance to Yahweh for laying down his son to sacrfice him to God. So, his works justified his faith. What are our works that justify our faith? For each person it is different.
I have found to many so called followers of Messiah who are more concerened as fruit inspectors than analyzing their own lives for any hint of sin or disobediance which we all have to one degree or another.

Santificication: is the ongoing work of the process of being pruned and molded.

So, having said that Protestants are not under any obligation by strict disciplines that coherce people into going from door to door lest they become disfellowshipped. We Protestants witness at the the unction of the Holy Spirit guided by the Sovereignty of God. We trust Him and not our methods. There is not a quick fix for leading people to Yeshua our Messiah.

So, we Protestants may not utilize your methods per se, but we do use methods. The Net has been a very successful tool for ministry…such as this site – this very thread. Is this my method of ministry? No, by God's Sovereignty I stumbled on this site and here I am. I use different methods of ministry and stick to none as “aces in the hole”. I depend on the Spirit of God to lead me to people and people being lead to me. When I was attending school (been off for some semesters due to tuition and time) I was taking the bus. I met at least a hundred or more so people who either confessed Christ, received funds, and all were prayed over. I met gang members, homeless, AIDS patients, hosptial patients (the route passed by a very large hospital) and others who were down and out. That was a very humbling and awesome experience which I would not take back for anything! Now do I get on the bus Saturday morning with that intent? No. I don't even get on a bus at all anymore. I go with God and His leading. Here where I sit at work is a lost young man. He listens to be intently and inquires a lot of the hope tht lies within me. He may not agree right now but I trust God's mercy and patience, I trust the Spirit's conviction and prodding, I trust that God may have sowed some seed within him that God may send another servant to water what wa sown. He may not come to Christ for another twenty years. But it has to start somewhere. What I am saying is just because we may not get up every Saturday morning and knock on doors does not mean we do not preach the Kingdom. Your logic is skewed: Protestants do not knock on doors = Protestants are not preaching the kingdom. Very narrow minded thinking. Think outside the box a little and look around you. We Protestants are as passionate if not more passionate than the Watchtower. I cannot condemn the Watchtower though. People whom I have met that now reject Watchtower heretical doctrine and false prophecy, now make some of the best Protestant leaders and teachers. They use some of the Watchtower methods they aquired and apply them.

The danger is in my orginal question…what is the motive of these millions of witnesses? I cannot say for I know not the heart of one person nor have I walked in their shoes at all. I would however say without any qualms that most witnesses (from my personal experience with ex-witnesses and other's encounters with other witnesses; there are multiple published books written by former witnesses who now testify to the fear placed on them if they did not perform “service” for their elders or Watchtower) go door to door out of comulsion, fear, dread, guilt trips and at times threats from elders.

Quote

I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity.

I challenge you. Study just where your roots are. However, if you dare you may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. You have yet to comment on my many statements of being disfellowshipped. I sense your silence speaks volumes. If you though, are as passionate about the study and knowledge of God….search. Your eternal destiny cannot be determined by the fear of man – or your judges, elders. Think just a minute David – here me out. Why do witnesses disfellowship members just for investigating the claims of other Churches that are Chritian? What harm is there in it truly? If however they fear you could find out that they are false prophets, to keep from spreading your “heresies” to fellow witnesses, you will be removed. Look on the net David. There are thousands of stories of witnesses who were disfelloshipped for questioning their leaders. Not trying to divide but simply to wonder. It makes no since to me David – on a logical level it seems that the witnesses have some skeletons in their closet; definitley something to hide.

Your passing the buck on this subject is speaking volumes to readers and to myself. I was actually hoping you had a descent rebuttal that I could work with. You have yet to comment on it. There is a plethora of info out there on the net with no axe to grind and no vindictive motive for slander or malice, but merely to give facts about the Watchtower organization.

Quote

Society’s president and directors, has taken a legal vow of poverty

I am trying to figure out your point here. I think you are implying that these individuals are not receiving the billion dollars. To what affect does being poor make one righteous? So being wealthy is a sin? Only if it is a snare. Solomon was the richest man that has ever lived. My point was that there is a billion dollar industry called the Watchtower and the money HAS TO BE GOING SOMEWHERE. Where? You don't spend a billion dollars on bibles, tracts, literature, buildings and such. You yourself said that EVERYTHING being done is volunteers with no pay. You likewise said that the buildings are contructes with cheap matierials. My father is having a $200,000 home being built. It's a bit much for me but he deserves it after his long hard life…God is giving him some chance to re
st and enjoy life in ways he has not had the opportunity to. Gettin back to business: What I saying is this house is gorgeous and the plans were done by architects, the builders skilled professionals trained in their field, plumbers who are licensed and the list goes on. Now, that is only a $200,000 dollar home. You could build 5000 of those as kingdom halls with a billion dollars. I am going to assume the cost for a kingdom hall that as you said can be cheaply built over a weekend would not cost more than $20,000 at most since the labor is free.
David, it is safe to say there is a lot of money out there that is either floating around in oblivion or is being paid to SOMEONE OR SOMEONE(S).

Quote

I wonder if Casey had to pay to go to his Religion school.

Yes I did and do. My school is an accredited college. It is on a University level. I can transfer my undergrad to another graduate school and get into medicine or law or something of that nature…just like your Jehovah Witness lawyer you mentioned previously. He most certainly had to pay! A lawyer? Wow, now that took a lot of energy, time and finances sacrificed to attain. I wonder if he is aware of your comment:

Quote

I think he would find your attack on colleges without warrant and offending. For you are implying one who goes to college to better attain knowledge and enjoy life better by learning and being paid more for their time and effort, is a bad thing.

Quote

Your trained lawyers didn't become lawyers on any “free ride” I assure you. Let me point out something here: All this is FREE but 1,000,000,000 is more money than most lotteries combined. I guarantee you those poor souls who busted their tales to make ends meet who donated this money did not work for nothing.

Quote

And if as Casey would suggest, the higher ups are getting a billion dollars, then how could the other thousands who live with them and who are making 50 cents a day stand it?

$.50 a day??? Now you really threw a monkey wrench in the cogs! This keeps getting cheaper and cheaper by the minute! Free labor, free school, free teaching, free door to door, free matierials, free bibles, free literature…now we are talking big bucks!!! FIFTY WHOLE CENTS A DAY! $182.50 a year per person. And yet you still insist that the money is being put to ministry. Do the math. Your money is missing somewhere.

You posted how many prints bibles and literature are made but you gave no numbers to the dollar? Why? Do you not know? I hope you don't because if you do then you are hiding a fact you don't wanna admit, that the Watchtower is just another Industry, Cooperation that runs its slaves (a servant is paid and rewarded…a slave get's nothing but a bed to sleep on at best…or as you well put it – ROOM AND BOARD) door to door using current methods of marketing schemes utilized by other companies that make millions and billions of dollars.

Quote

My dad who is a Roman Catholic was quite angry when his mom, my grandma was ….weasled out of thousands of dollars from the Catholic church. It's really sad

Now here is something finally interesting. I would like to hear your testimony. How did you become a JW being raised a Catholic? Talk about two polar extremes! Yet, they have similar methods employed as I stated previously in this thread. What does your dad think about it?

Quote

During the centuries since then, however, the churches of Christendom have engaged in every conceivable money-raising scheme to finance their activities.

Stereo type?

Quote

So how much does it cost to print 1.2 billion magazines, 47 million books, etc? How much does it cost to build 2000 kingdom halls? Etc. Etc, etc. My guess is… a billion dollars.

Your guess will not suffice. My guess about the number of the elect did not suffice either. Now the tables have turned.

Quote

Actually you can't teach on a bias slance. Just like you can't teach Enlgish from a Christian slant. It is impossible to be taught grammatical constructs from any theological bias. The idea alone is absurd.
However, if you want me to reveal how your NWT translators placed a slant on verses to fit their theoligical platform I will gladly do. We can even go to the Greek. Not a Jehovah Witness Greek, not a Christian Greek..a language called Greek.

October 19, 2006 at 6:10 pm#30837

Casey S Smith 29

Participant

Debra:

I apologize for misunderstanding your post. It was five and I was getting out of work and quickly glanced at your reply. We are are on the same page. Again, my apologies ma'am.

Quote

In my community there are many churches, the church I go to is an Anglican,

I went to the Episcopal Church for a while off and on, and studied some of Lewis's thoughts on them, the Church of England that is. C.S. Lewis was an Anglican which sparked my interest. Actually what really happened was I investigated Church History over the years inquiring on all of our roots and then learning that Lewis was a member it intrigued me.

I like the Anglical Church. You can't beet the best of both world's there. What I mean is they have the best balance between the Roman Church and the Protestant Churches. They agree with Calvin and they likewise utilize Arminius. They hold to the emphasis on the Eucharist and give it the proper reverence but they stay away from the prist being the vessel who concecrates the bread. I enjoyed going their but I left. I would rather not mention why because if you enjoy it and are growing in your faith then I support you. They are not bad or theological unorthodox I just had some differences of opinion. If you want me to explain I will. Let me reiterate, I love the Anglican Church…:;):

October 19, 2006 at 6:22 pm#30838

NickHassan

Participant

Hi casey,
You constantly define yourself as a PROTESTANT.
What does that mean?
Your religion was born of protest against catholicism?
So you admit catholicism still defines your basis of faith?
Is that not a historical triviality or still what defines you?
Surely we should be defined by who we follow
rather than who we protest against?

What value will such a word have when we find out if we are known by the Master?

October 19, 2006 at 6:46 pm#30839

NickHassan

Participant

Hi,
Catholics are offered certainty. A simple formula religion that demands you leave your mind at the door and trust entirley in the teaching and direction of men. The pope is said to be the vicar of Christ so to follow him and the church is to grasp salvation they are told. Any unenlightened excatholic is searching for some similar form of that firm and clear direction and thus the JW denomination attracts many.

October 19, 2006 at 8:58 pm#30842

david

Participant

Quote

–Debra

With the early Christians, I believe they were all preachers. I don't believe there was a clergy laity distinction. All had a share in spreading the good news, as Jesus commanded to his disciples. (mat 28:19,20)

“Celsus, the first writer against Christianity, makes it a matter of mockery, that labourers, shoemakers, farmers, the most uninformed and clownish of men, should be zealous preachers of the Gospel.” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, by Augustus Neander; translated from the German by Henry John Rose, 1848, p. 41)

Jesus said: “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’” (Matthew 10:7)

A NEW TEACHING?
Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented “a new teaching.” (Mark 1:27)
Later, some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a “new teaching.” (Acts 17:19, 20)
It was new to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God’s Word.

We make an effort, going house to house, and search out people.
Jesus told them: “When you are entering into the house, greet the household.” (Matthew 10:12)

Paul himself was an example, saying:
ACTS 20:20,21
“I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.”

Then he goes on to say: “I thoroughly bore witness.”

MATTHEW 10:11
““Into whatever city or village YOU enter, SEARCH OUT who in it is deserving,”
MATTHEW 10:14
“Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that HOUSE or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet.”

Jesus went right to the people with the Kingdom message, teaching them publicly and in their homes. (Mt 5:1; 9:10, 28, 35) When he sent out his early disciples to preach, he directed them: “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving.” (Mt 10:7, 11-14) Such ‘searching out’ would reasonably include going to the people’s homes, where “deserving” persons would heed the message and the disciples would find lodging for the night.—Lu 9:1-6.
On a later occasion Jesus “designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come.” These were not just to preach in public places but were also to contact people at their homes. Jesus instructed them: “Wherever you enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’”—Lu 10:1-7.
In the days following Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus’ disciples continued bringing the good news right to the homes of the people. Though ordered to “stop speaking,” the inspired record says that “every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Ac 5:40-42; compare Dy, NIV.) The expression “from house to house” translates the Greek kat́ oíkon, literally, “according to house”; the sense of the Greek preposition katá is distributive (“from house to house”) and not merely adverbial (‘at home’). (See NW ftn.) This method of reaching people—going directly to their homes—brought outstanding results. “The number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much.”—Ac 6:7; compare 4:16, 17 and 5:28.
The apostle Paul told the elders of Ephesus: “From the first day that I stepped into the district of Asia . . . I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house. But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Ac 20:18-21; compare KJ, Dy, AS, RS, Mo, NIV, La.) Paul was here speaking of his efforts to preach to these men when they were yet unbelievers, persons needing to know “about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” Thus, from the start of his missionary service in Asia, Paul searched “from house to house” for spiritually inclined persons. Finding such ones, he doubtless returned to their homes to teach them further and, as these became believers, to strengthen them in the faith. Dr. A. T. Robertson, in his book Word Pictures in the New Testament, comments as follows on Acts 20:20: “By (according to) houses. It is worth noting that this greatest of all preachers preached from house to house and did not make his visits mere social calls.”—1930, Vol. III, pp. 349, 350.

MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””

This is one of Jesus commnands. And it would be taught to new disciples who would follow it and who would “Go,” and make disciples themselves. And so it would go.

Paul taught “both in public assemblies [demosía] and from house to house (distributive [katá] with the accusative).
A similar use of katá appears at Luke 8:1, which speaks of Jesus preaching “from city to city and from village to village.” Paul used the plural form kat’ oíkous at Acts 20:20. Here some Bible translations read “in your homes.” But the apostle was not referring solely to social calls upon elders or to shepherding visits in the homes of fellow believers. His next words show that he was speaking about a house-to-house ministry among unbelievers, for he said: “But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21) Fellow believers had already repented and exercised faith in Jesus. Hence, both Acts 5:42 and Acts 20:20 have to do with preaching to unbelievers “from house to house,” or from door to door.

Debra, as Christians we are to to imitate Christ.
1 PETER 2:21
“In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.”
JOHN 13:15
“For I set the pattern for YOU, that, just as I did to YOU, YOU should do also.” (See also Mat. 16:24)

JOHN 18:37
“For this I [Jesus] have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.”
LUKE 4:43
“But he said to them: “Also to other cities I must DECLARE THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, because FOR THIS I WAS SENT FORTH.””
LUKE 8:1
“Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city a
nd from village to village, PREACHING AND DECLARING THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. And the twelve were with him,” (Compare Mt 9:35)

Jesus mission while he was on earth leading up to his ransom sacrifice was to tell people the truth, the truth about God and his kingdom. It's why he was sent forth by God.
As Paul said:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:1
“Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ.”

MATTHEW 24:36-39
““For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Noah was a “preacher of righteousness.” People “took no note” of what was happening. So it will be in our time, despite the global preaching work also fortold by Jesus. (Mat 24:14) Jesus said people would take no note. Think about that. They would be too busy with the normal affairs of life.

Quote

For instance, trees fall quite often where I live, and sometimes on peoples houses and not only Christians houses, there are a team of men and women in our church, that the community a large know are there for them in times of trouble, a single mum's house is destroyed, she and the kids have nowhere to go, there is always somewhere in someones home, ours included. No we don't doorknock, we are busy with other Kingdom work.

Taking people in need in is very commendable. Being good is commendable. But we can find people in all communities, and people from all backgrounds that don't even believe in Jesus that try to do the right thing. Following Jesus commands to preach is also required.

Think about this. God tells the world that the wicked will be destroyed. And you don't share this message with everyone possible. God will destroy the wicked. But is any of their blood on your hands?

ACTS 20:26-27
“Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am CLEAN FROM THE BLOOD OF ALL MEN, for I have not held back from telling YOU all the counsel of God.” (Compare 1 Tim 4:16)
1 CORINTHIANS 9:16
“If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, WOE IS ME IF I DID NOT DECLARE THE GOOD NEWS!”
1 CORINTHIANS 9:23
“But I do all things for the sake of the good news, that I may become a sharer of it with [others].”

Why could Paul say that he was clean from the blood of all men?
ACTS 20:20-21
“while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house. But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.”

EZEKIEL 33:8-9
“When I say to someone wicked, ‘O wicked one, you will positively die!’ but you actually do not speak out to warn the wicked one from his way, he himself as a wicked one will die in his own error, but his blood I shall ask back at your own hand. But as regards you, in case you actually warn someone wicked from his way [for him] to turn back from it but he actually does not turn back from his way, he himself will die in his own error, whereas you yourself will certainly deliver your own soul.”

EZEKIEL 3:18-19
“When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.”

We learn something about God from these scriptures. What do you think it is?

A closer look at Paul
ACTS 17:17
“he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshiped [God] and every day in the marketplace with those who happened to be on hand.”

2 TIMOTHY 4:2,5
“preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. . . .You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.”

ACTS 10:42
“Also, he ORDERED US TO PREACH to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the One decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.”

ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judéa and Samaŕia and to the most distant part of the earth.””

It's something people recognize should be done, but aren't really willing to do:

Writing in U.S. Catholic September 1986 , Kenneth Guentert said: “I grew up in the days when Catholics weren’t supposed to read the Bible because they’d get strange ideas—like thinking Christians should go around knocking on doors trying to convert people. Then came Vatican II, and I started to read the Bible. Sure enough; now I think Christians should go around knocking on doors to try to convert people.” He added: “It’s not that I’m terribly comfortable with the idea, you understand; but if you read the New Testament, it is almost impossible to avoid this conclusion.”

And in January 1994, Pope John Paul II said that it is “not the time to be ashamed of the Gospel, it’s time to preach it from the rooftops.”
An article in the Australian newspaper Illawarra Mercury stated: “Prominent South Coast Catholics are not keen to adopt the Jehovah’s Witness-type approach to their faith.” One man said that evangelism is simply “not part of the Catholic psyche.” Another reasoned: “It’s good for the Church to promote itself, but not through doorknocking. Perhaps through schools or letterbox drops would be better.” Even the dean of a local cathedral was not quite sure how to interpret the pope’s remarks. “We would encourage people to live out the Gospel they know through their own lives,” he said. “Whether that means doorknocking is another thing.” The headline of the news article sums it up well: “Catholics won’t heed Pope’s call to preach.”

“CATHOLICS Take Gospel Door to Door.” So read a headline in The Providence Sunday Journal of October 4, 1987. The newspaper reported that a major objective of this activity was to “invite some of their inactive parishioners to return to a more active parish life.” Priest John Allard, director of the Office for Evangelization in the Diocese of Providence, was quoted as saying: “Sure, there’s going to be a lot of skepticism. People are going to say, ‘There they go, just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses.’ But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are effective, aren’t they? I’ll bet you can go into any Kingdom Hall in the state [of Rhode Island, U.S.A.,] and find congregations filled with former Catholics.”

A conference of religious leaders in Spain noted this: “Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greatest preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advant
age of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.

Because we don't get involved in politics or become soldiers or try to save this world lying in Satan's power, we, exactly like the early Christians are often looked at as those of no help to society. And just like with the early Christians, this is false. Yes, we put much greater emphasis on the real solution to mankinds problems–God's kingdom. And we tell everyone everywhere about this solution so that they can have a real hope for the future.

And yes, we follow this:
GALATIANS 6:10
“Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to [us] in the faith.”

In his book The Rise of Christianity, E. W. Barnes relates: “In its early authoritative documents the Christian movement is represented as essentially moral and law-abiding. Its members desired to be good citizens and loyal subjects. They shunned the failings and vices of paganism. In private life they sought to be peaceful neighbours and trustworthy friends. They were taught to be sober, industrious and clean-living. Amid prevailing corruption and licentiousness they were, if loyal to their principles, honest and truthful. Their sexual standards were high: the marriage tie was respected and family life was pure. With such virtues they could not, one would have thought, have been troublesome citizens. Yet they were for long despised, maligned and hated.”

Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”

Jehovah’s Witnesses take to heart the apostle Paul’s words:

“Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to satisfy the one who enlisted him.”—2 Timothy 2:3, 4, Revised Standard Version, an Ecumenical Edition.

Quote

I don't concider what we do is anything beyond what we are all asked to do as Christians, look after widows and children, feed and clothe those who have nothing, listen to what they are saying, and show them the face of Jesus and do to others as you would want done for you.

I guess my question Debra, is how do you show them the face of Jesus and who is the “them” you speak of?
Have you ever went across the street and attempted to talk to your neighbor about Jesus? Or the athiest down the lane? Or the person on the other side of your city who is a Hindu? Or the Buddhist down your back alley? Or my brother, who lives in a little town and has nothing to do with the Bible? Have you gone to him?

david

October 19, 2006 at 9:07 pm#30844

david

Participant

Quote

–Debra

Well, there's God almighty. He is king of eternity.
He has set his son up, appointed and annointed him to be king of his kingdom. Really, it's both God's kingdom and also in a sense Christ's kingdom as he has been put in charge of it.
But along with Christ, there are other rulers, kings.

DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
DANIEL 7:22
“until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”
DANIEL 7:27
““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’”
REVELATION 1:6
“and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(At Revelation 14:1-3 these “bought from the earth” to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)
ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (See Heb 1:2)
JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”
REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
REVELATION 22:3-5
“And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and HIS SLAVES will render him sacred service; and THEY will see his face, and his name will be on THEIR foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and THEY have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon THEM, and they will RULE AS KINGS forever and ever.”

Think of it this way. Jehovah wanted people to live in a paradise earth. But adam and eve chose sin and death. Had they chose to follow God and not Satan, they would have expanded paradise.
Because things didn't go that way, God has chosen to set up a special arrangement, a kingdom that includes humans who act as Judges and kings and priests.
Much like a jury of our peers who have lived on earth, all the judges and rulers will know what we have gone through–even Jesus who came to the earth. It's a very fair way to do things.

Quote

There was another 2 who came about 2 years ago, I forgot about them sorry.

Yes, I knew what you said didn't really make sense.
Where do you live anyway? What country?

david

October 19, 2006 at 9:22 pm#30846

Casey S Smith 29

Participant

David: I posted the following. You had nothing to reply to and you likewise did not retract nor accept your accusations as false there I clearly showed them to be. Do you think people like Debra who have a serious inquiry and all you have to say is cut/paste from your JW sight and then add a few lines? People on here do not want to have others defend themselves in the standards of apologetics with a mere quote of websites. If I wanted to prove witnesses in error. I could list an endless line of website where people can skip this and go straight to the source of answers. On here though, we actually interact with one another. You though have opted out. Now, I am not going to let my reply be skipped past as if what I had to say was not important and trivial. You can cut/paste all you want, I prefer to actually spend time and thought in my replies. You parrott what you are told. Why am I so surprised? I dunno.

Quote
Education is fine. It's just, for many people, they step on the wheel, the wheel that the mouse is on and when they step on this treadmill, they can't get off. They need more. More money, more material possessions, more titles, more pride, more everything. Not saying that this happens to everyone. But what did Jesus say.

But then you say:

Quote
I remember watching a tv show showing a JW lawyer in Bethal who was handling a case. The interviewer asked the lawyer how much he was being paid

But yesteday you likewise said:

Quote
You're right. I don't have a degree written in ink from some worldly university

Quote
Yes, we're up there on the list. Printing Bibles and literature for the world in an effort to preach the good news of Gods kingdom to all the nations would take a lot, wouldn't it?

Clarify to some who don't have the time to read the whole thread and are new here. What list? The TOP 25 WEALTHIEST INUSTRIES list.

It seems to be an oxy moron. A billion dollar industry that is NON profit. That sounds like a HUGE profit revenue to me.

Quote

The one who assumes a net profit of 10%

Quote
I am studying every criticism that I hear about them. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. I also noticed that people who know nothing of the JWs have an unexplained vehement anger toward them.

Quote
“Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.”
Show me where I have spoken ill of a JW.

Nick: The comment I made weeks ago here were hasty. I did not thoroughly read the entire thread you posted and misrepresented your statements.

Quote
Debra, I truly believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones in the world fulfilling this scripture.

David that is a very bold statement. I will admit that witnesses are very persistant in their door knocking. But what is their motive? What truly lies behind the the intentions of these witnesses of going from door to door? Are we going to be judged by good works for entrance into the Kingdom of God? Did not Jesus say in Mathew 7, “Many will say to me on That Day…didn't we do great WORKS in your Name?” What is His response? I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART! Did he say, “no you didn't”? No, he did not deny they did great works in His Name. But He insisted He never knew them. Not He did know them and He forgot, or that He knew them in the past once…HE NEVER knew them! Jesus said that we are going to be judged by our motives not merely our deeds but the motives BEHIND THE DEEDS. If I started a denomination and upon entry into that denomination you had to adhere to certain requirements that I have deemed as necessary upon worshipping God (or in this case Jehovah), those who truly believed they HAD TO DO IT…WOULD DO IT! If I can just get two people to believe what I have to say is true I can get more. Those two can proselyze two who can recruit two who can….etc,etc. It is a very successful marketing techinque that makes Mulit-level Marketing Industries very wealthy and monetarily successful. All I need is the very least of two people.
Follow me here David I pray you. I believe the reason you don't have a majority (not all for myself and tons of tohers like me witness almost every where we go…stores, gas stations, people on the streets, homeless, hitchhikers and so forth) of Protestant groups following your method is a very simple answer – Motive. We Protestants adhere to a very peaceful and nondemanding, non guilt-trip ridden, without reverse psycholigical constraints. Here is what they are:

Faith: Faith is the evidence of the Grace that has been instilled within the new believer. The Spirit testifies with the believer that he or she is born of God. The outflow of faith will lea
d to good works according to James. Faith that is not evidence by works is dead faith and most likely not a genuine conversion or doubtful at best. Works do not save anyone but works justify faith. Abraham was considered righteous as a Gentile prior to circumcision based upon the fact that he believed God and it was reckoned or credited to him as righteousness so he is the father of us all according to faith. James continues with Paul's thought in Romans by saying in his letter that Paul was justified by his works. Now was James contradicting Paul? By no means! James was simply saying that your confession of belief is not exactly the basis of your salvation, but it is the outward manifestation of that faith that PROVES you are justified. Paul was righteous before his works. What were his works? Many, but James emphasizes his obediance to Yahweh for laying down his son to sacrfice him to God. So, his works justified his faith. What are our works that justify our faith? For each person it is different.
I have found to many so called followers of Messiah who are more concerened as fruit inspectors than analyzing their own lives for any hint of sin or disobediance which we all have to one degree or another.

Santificication: is the ongoing work of the process of being pruned and molded.

Quote
I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity.

Quote

Society’s president and directors, has taken a legal vow of poverty

I am trying to figure out your point here. I think you are implying that these individuals are not receiving the billion dollars. To what affect does being poor make one righteous? So being wealthy is a sin? Only if it is a snare. Solomon was the richest man that has ever lived. My point was that there is a billion dollar industry called the Watchtower and the money HAS TO BE GOING SOMEWHERE. Where? You don't spend a billion dollars on bibles, tracts, literature, buildings and such. You yourself said that EVERYTHING being done is volunteers with no pay. You likewise said that the buildings are contructes with cheap matierials. My father is having a $200,000 home being built. It's a bit much for me but he deserves it after his long hard life…God is giving him some chance to rest and enjoy life in ways he has not had the opportunity to. Gettin back to business: What I saying is this house is gorgeous and the plans were done by architects, the builders skilled professionals trained in their field, plumbers who are licensed and the list goes on. Now, that is only a $200,000 dollar home. You could build 5000 of those as kingdom halls with a billion dollars. I am going to assume the cost for a kingdom hall that as you said can be cheaply built over a weekend would not cost more than $20,000 at most since the labor is free.
David, it is safe to say there is a lot of money out there that is either floating around in oblivion or is being paid to SOMEONE OR SOMEONE(S).

Quote
I wonder if Casey had to pay to go to his Religion school.

Quote
As far as college, secularly, that's completely up to the individual. But many Jehovah's Witnesses do not find comfort in higher paying jobs that require more time. We are focused on preaching God's kingdom.

Quote
Our Theocratic Minsitry school is free. Our Gilead school is free. Our Ministerial Training School is free. Our School for Travelling Overseers if free. Our School for Branch Committee Overseers is free. Our Pioneer Service school, free.

Quote
And if as Casey would suggest, the higher ups are getting a billion dollars, then how could the other thousands who live with them and who are making 50 cents a day stand it?

Quote
My dad who is a Roman Catholic was quite angry when his mom, my grandma was ….weasled out of thousands of dollars from the Catholic church. It's really sad

Quote
During the centuries since then, however, the churches of Christendom have engaged in every conceivable money-raising scheme to finance their activities.

Stereo type?

Quote
So how much does it cost to print 1.2 billion magazines, 47 million books, etc? How much does it cost to build 2000 kingdom halls? Etc. Etc, etc. My guess is… a billion dollars.

Your guess will not suffice. My guess about the number of the elect did not suffice either. Now the tables have turned.

Quote

October 19, 2006 at 9:25 pm#30847

Casey S Smith 29

Participant

David how old are you? You are very young huh? I was thinking maybe between 20 – 22 but now I am thinking maybe 14 – 17 since your replies are at best partial and at worst irresponsible…meaning you do not accept responsibility for your false accusations and slandering you state on this thread. If you do not reply to this question, I will assume I am correct.

October 19, 2006 at 9:58 pm#30851

Debra

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 19 2006,22:07)

Quote

–Debra

Quote

There was another 2 who came about 2 years ago, I forgot about them sorry.

Yes, I knew what you said didn't really make sense.
Where do you live anyway? What country?

david

Hi David
Some people don't have doors to knock on, they don't have homes to live in, they live under bridges, or in backyards under houses,or in the forest. I live in a place called Belgrave, it's in the Dandenong ranges in Melbourne. We have a drug problem amongst our youth and not so young population, these are the them we show the face of Jesus too, as well as those who live in homes with all the comforts, we try to meet the immediate needs of the person
How do we show His face…with a hot bowl of soup on a cold night, with blankets, coats and shoes to keep them warm and an ear to listen when there is no one else left in their lives who cares. The reason we do this is because we care about their wellbeing and this includes telling them the Good news about Jesus. I do acutally go to to the Hindu's and Budhists I have both as neighbours. If I were closer to where your brother lives I would go visit him too. must go to work now talk later.

October 19, 2006 at 10:05 pm#30852

Casey S Smith 29

Participant

What value will such a word have when we find out if we are known by the Master?

Nick time and again time and again time and again. What in the world is wrong with you people on this thread? What problem do you have with words? You all seem to think that being defined to help illustrate and explain things is unscriptural? What about covenant? What about justification? What about atonement? What about the numerous words in the Bible that explain a truth? Do you want EVERYTHING to be explained in small words that form a sentence that form a paragraph that form a thesis? Apprantly so because I have to post HUGE threads with more than enough information and then all I get is some silly questions like:

Quote

You constantly define yourself as a PROTESTANT.
What does that mean?

Are you kidding me Nick? You can't be serious. When I say I am a protestant I am defining EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER who holds to the Orthodox teachings of the faith. Now that would exclude JW's due to their apostasy from Orthodox Doctrine however their beginnings originate from Protestant organizations such as 7th Day Adventist and other Dispensational groups. You yourself sir are a Protestant. If Luther did not do what he did in 1517 we would all be Catholic and not having this very discussion. People on this site treat men of faith gone before them with contempt. You should all feel ashamed. Do you think people like Erasmus, Luther, Beza, Knox, Calvin and the list goes on, were apostates? If you do then you would agree with the Catholic Church. The very Church you dispise! Isn't there a passage in Scripture where two kings were at adds with one another but agreed on persecuting Christianity? Ring a bell???

Quote

Your religion was born of protest against catholicism?
So you admit catholicism still defines your basis of faith?

Where does the conclusion from that come? I adhere to teachings the Catholic Church declared anhethima in 1550 at the Council of Trent.

You are a protestor sir. Only you have become a Protestant – protestant – protestant – protestan – protesta – protest – protes – prote – prot – pro – pr – p – and eventually your theological views will become so distorted you wouldn't even be recognized as a believer!

Quote

Surely we should be defined by who we follow
rather than who we protest against?

Hence Christianity – Christian – Christ…whom we follow.

Quote

Your religion

My religion? I do not submit to a religion. A religion would be classified as Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals (that is up for debate), Hinduism, Judaism, Wicca…etc,etc.

There are too many religions on here. You sir have developed your own. You can be as successful as the JW's in proselytizing millions of people.

You can be James Russell and not like modern Chrisitanity (the Christianity that has survived 2000 years mind you).

Go ahead an recruit people from the net. (The door knocking days have passed).

Teach them your doctrine from Scripture by taking versus that fit your scheme of thinking.

Make yourself come off humble and kind (I am not saying you aren't here).

Write a thesis of basic Bible Doctrines you believe.

Make it look professional and use “proof texts” to base your claim.

Convince two people to believe you.

Write literature that you control what is in it and elaborate on your thinking.

Change with the times or conform with the world to make sure you do not offend anyone thereby causing them to not wanna join you.

Get them in your group long enough to brainwash them with some sort of reverse psychological thinking (if you do not follow what these Scriptures plainly say you are no longer in the truth and will not enter paradise).

In fifty years make sure you come out with your own bible transaltion that shows your views…there are a number of ways to do this. The most standard way cults use them is like placing : ' ” ; [] and such puncuations in places where the English reader will read the text differently from EVERY OTHER BIBLE THAT HAS BEEN IN USE FOR 600 YEARS IN ENGLISH! Another way you can make this version is adding words like (other) or adding a predicate where one is not there like “a” (g)od and on that note keep your letters lower case except for The God…and on that note, come up with a different name for God that is not his real name and add letters there to make it make sense. Then take a away from the text predicates that do belong there like holy spirit instead of the Holy Spirit….and on that note change the entire word and infer a word that describes what the sprit can do and instead of making it a verbe, make the verbe a noun such as “active force”.

Well there you go Nick. Have a ball.

October 19, 2006 at 10:51 pm#30860

david

Participant

Quote

The TOP 25 WEALTHIEST INUSTRIES list.

Not wealthiest. In revenue, in the top 25. That doesn't mean there's a billion dollars sitting around every year.
WE PREACH TO PEOPLE IN 235 LANDS. We print the journal that has the highest circulation on the planet, I believe. One of our books once had the highest printings next to the Bible. Yes. A lot of money flows in. But what you close your eyes to is: A lot of money flows out, in the form of Bible literature, branch offices, kingdom halls, etc.

Quote

So, I am going to make a presumption that there are no religious organizations aside from the Watchtower on the list or ANY list of being the wealthiest industry. Prove me wrong. You may be able to.

I haven't looked at that list either. but that list I believe only includes the Manhatten area, or brooklyn I think, doesn't it?
As far as any list, you have only shown that we are the only ones doing the remarkable work Jesus fortold:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
Such an extraordinary work involves extraordinary numbers. And you're probably right. Because I don't think any other religious organization is doing what we are. Thanks for bringing that out.

Quote

It seems to be an oxy moron. A billion dollar industry that is NON profit. That sounds like a HUGE profit revenue to me.

I know. For a worldy person it would be hard to understand how someone wouldn't be trying to tap into that money, to get a cut of it.
But as I said:

Quote

I have no anger nor do I feel I treat JW's vehemently. David if you have felt I unfoundedly made misrepresntations of the Watchtower and it's adherents, show me and I will gladly, humble apologize and retract.

I'll make a list. No. I am curious to know why you stated that JW's weren't allowed to use the internet at all when it first came out. That's just plain wrong. I wonder which anti_JW website you got it from.
Also, you're way off on my age. I'm 12. (Just kidding.)
Right now, I feel you are trying to make the Watchtower out to be a money making machine. Here's the thing. Find someone in Bethal with money. Give me a name. Let's go to their fancy house, and look at all their cars they've bought with a chunk of the billion that flows into the soceity each year. Show me. Show me someone who is making money. You can't. You won't. It's impossible. Yet, you represent that it isn't and unfoundedly so.

Quote

I may have…people like you and I who are as passionate for truth, or passionate in searching for truth or searching for Jesus who is the Truth (Watchtower agrees with mestating that Jesus is the Key of Truth), sometimes our emotions will overtake our intellect and thereby overriding any self control we might have needed to use.

I too, more than once on here, I've succumb to emotion when I should have just let things be.

Quote

Witnesses get a bad rap . . . . unfounded most of the time.

Ya.

Quote

So, having said that Protestants are not under any obligation by strict disciplines that coherce people into going from door to door lest they become disfellowshipped.

This would be another one of your misrepresentations, unfounded… without…foundation.
Witnesses who become inactive in the ministry are not disfellowshiped. Your statement was untrue, without basis. I believe they do fit under the heading of “inactive ones.” But other than that, nothing at all happens, except they perhaps receive extra encouragement from shephards.

Quote

Quote
Debra, I truly believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones in the world fulfilling this scripture.

David that is a very bold statement. I will admit that witnesses are very persistant in their door knocking.

Yes. It's a bold statement. They are persistent in their “door knocking” as you say in 235 lands, and bring these ones the exact same message. And it's not just door knocking. We speak to ones at gas stations, on the street, ie: street witnessing, informal witnessing, we use telephone witnessing to contact people who don't have doors (a joke), we write people letters, etc, etc.
BUT, IN ORDER FOR JESUS WORDS TO BE FULFILLED,
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
DON'T YOU THINK THAT the ones preaching this would be preaching the same message, and not one of disunity? One protestant says this. One says that.
Find a united group preaching non-contradicting messages about the kingdom in all the nations and let me know it's name, please…sir.
Yes. It's a bold statement. One you didn't really argue. You could only speak of motive, in an effort to sidetrack or disarm it.

Quote

So, we Protestants may not utilize your methods per se, but we do use methods. The Net has been a very successful tool for ministry…such as this site – this very thread.

Ah, and the billion people who don't have enough to eat each day, much less a computer? What of them?
Such a massively global preaching work would need organization, wouldn't it? (mat 28:19,20)

Quote

But it has to start somewhere. What I am saying is just because we may not get up every Saturday morning and knock on doors does not mean we do not preach the Kingdom. Your logic is skewed: Protestants do not knock on doors = Protestants are not preaching the kingdom.

First, it's not just saturdays. Secondly, my thinking is sound. I've been conducting a test. All the while I”ve been on this site, a test. I've had several people on here, (I'd say 6 or so) explain to me that a JW has recently contacted them. I'm waiting for a protestant, a mormon (who's never knocked on my door by the way) an anyone to come to me with the kingdom message, anywhere. It doesn't even have to be my home. A gas station would do. It's never happened.
You yourself are my evidence. Has one of your evangelical's or anglican's or anyone that represnets what you believe come to me….ever, ever at all? At any time? Have you ever approached me? Ever? Even once?

No.

MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

Yes. It's a bold statement.

Quote

I cannot condemn the Watchtower though. People whom I have met that now reject Watchtower heretical doctrine and false prophecy, now make some of the best Protestant leaders and teachers. They use some of the Watchtower methods they aquired and apply them.

Teaching methods? Are you perhaps now suggesting that we have excellent teaching methods, methods worthy of imitation?

Quote

I guess, to some, speaking with others about God would be dreadful. That's why so few do it. But threats from elders? As I said previously, encouragement from elders. As I said previously, people are not disfellowshipped for not being active in publishing the good news. And obviously, without question, those who are disfellowshipped for wrong conduct (which is a Bible principle practiced by the early Christians) are not going to speak well, or for that matter, necessarily truthful of their fellow witnesses.
I can't remember the name, but someone wrote a book about JW's, explaining all the freedom's they've opened up for certain countries…it was a book that had nothing bad to say about JW. Then, a few year later, when his brother or one of his relatives was disfellowshippped, he wrote anther book. This one was the exact opposite. What was his motive?

Quote

What some see as fact, are often half truths and sometimes simply lies. You can do research on the web on JW. A lot of that research is like doing research in tabloid magazines. Behind that layer of research, you'll find that most of it simply isn't true. I mean, as I said, it starts out with a fact: A billion dollars in revenue. Then, they go with it, and take it somewhere that has no basis in reality. I don't think you made any comment or did the math on how much the things I listed cost. If magazines were all we published, all we did, and nothing else at all. And each magazine cost 90cents, then there's your billion. But guess what, each magazine is offered without charge and probably only costs 10 cents to make. Add the books, the kingdom halls, the everything else, and there's where the money goes. You have yet to show me otherwise. You have yet to show me one shred of proof that indicates otherwise.

And here's the thing, as quickly as you got on that subject of the billion, I've answered you and am trying to discuss this, you're already off on some other subject you found on the internet. It makes me question your motives.

As far as there being no axe to grind, no motive to what people put on the net, really? Is that what you think? I assure you the world lying in Satan's power does have a motive in everything it does–to turn people away from God.

Regarding persecution, Peter said: “In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely.” (1 Peter 2:21)
We are to follow his steps closely. And if we follow his steps, we too will suffer persecution and hatred.
MATTHEW 10:24-25
““A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his lord. It is enough for the disciple to become as his teacher, and the slave as his lord. If people have called the householder Beeĺzebub, how much more [will they call] those of his household so?”

OBJECTS OF HATRED
MATTHEW 10:22
“And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.”

Why the hatred?
JOHN 15:17-20
“If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also.”
Notice that we are told why the world would hate true Christians–because they are no part of Satan’s world.

The early Christians were hated, persecuted, and many of them killed.
Satan was the instigator of this persecution.
Does not Satan still rule the world? (John 14:30; 12:31; 16:11)
Is not the world still lying in his power? (1 John 5:19)
Is he not the god of this system of things? (2 Cor 4:4)

Should true Christians therefore not expect to be persecuted for their conviction and beliefs? The following scripture answers:
2 TIMOTHY 3:12
“In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.”

True Christianity would even cause a division in families.
MATTHEW 1
0:34-37
“Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.”

I’m wondering how these truths have played out in your lives.

MATTHEW 5:10-12
““Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them. “Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.”

Quote

My point was that there is a billion dollar industry called the Watchtower and the money HAS TO BE GOING SOMEWHERE. Where? You don't spend a billion dollars on bibles, tracts, literature, buildings and such. You yourself said that EVERYTHING being done is volunteers with no pay. You likewise said that the buildings are contructes with cheap matierials.

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that those in bethal are all paid and then use what I say that they are voluteers to make your point. What do you actually believe?

Quote

You don't spend a billion dollars on bibles, tracts, literature, buildings and such.

Perhaps you haven't looked at the numbers of things I listed. You have yet to grasp the enormous task that Jesus fortold:

MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.””

Quote

You could build 5000 of those as kingdom halls with a billion dollars. I am going to assume the cost for a kingdom hall that as you said can be cheaply built over a weekend would not cost more than $20,000 at most since the labor is free.
David, it is safe to say there is a lot of money out there that is either floating around in oblivion or is being paid to SOMEONE OR SOMEONE(S).

Really? Just based on what I've learned from buying materials for houses, such as carpets, countertops, etc, etc, I'd say labor is half the cost, not 95% or whatever.
Let's say a kingdom hall costs $100,000. (* See last paragraph. I rethought that and edited this)

So for 2,200 kingdom halls last year, that's–220 million.
The 10 branches, (branches are bigger), I'd say that's anther–10 million. (really, I have no idea.)
Assembly halls, 15–8 million more
Books: 47,490,247 (I don't know, 2$ each, so about 100 million)
Booklets: 6,834,740 (maybe a dollar each, so 7 million)
Brochures: 167,854,462 (let's say a dollar each–167 million)
Calendars: 5,405,955 (let's say a dollar each–5 million)
Magazines: 1,179,266,348 (let's say 50 cents each–550 million)
Tracts: 440,995,740 (10cents each–44 million)
Videos: 3,168,611 (1 dollar each–3 million)

I believe that adds up to around 1.2 billion. My math may have been off. But only by 0.2 billion. (funny)
You see casey, when dealing with such huge numbers, pennies count and they can count up to 0.2 billion.
You're not seeming to understand that.

Quote

Actually, I believe you're wrong on that too. “He most certainly had to pay.” Most certainly? You base a lot of your certainties on inaccurate statementes. If you are in good standing and want to become a lawyer or a dental technician, or whatever pretty much for Bethel and are willing to be a lawyer or dental techinician or carpenter or whatever for the society for at least a few years I believe, they have programs or I believe they may pay for your degree. As I said, we're trained in just about everything. And you can learn how to do just about anything there for free, if that's where you want to serve.
Maybe he became a lawyer before going to bethal. I don't know. But I do know that your certainties aren't so certain, and your math, when it comes to large numbers of small numbers adding up to a billion aren't that understanding.

Quote

I'm actually certain you're wrong. First, I didn't attack colleges. I pointed to the seeking of God's kingdom as primary in importance. Do you disagree? Secondly, he no doubt became a lawyer for that specific reason:
“the defending and legally establishing of the good news.”–Phil 1:7

And, as JW's we find we have a need often to defend our rights. In fact, we are often responsible for gaining others their freedoms because it is often us who have to face these things first.
There was a documentary on JW's a couple weeks ago: “Chartering the Charter–How JW's …in Canada.” I don't remember exactly what it was called. But we are often called upon to defend and legally establish the good news in many many countries.

Quote

Again, if you averaged it out for all the people who associate with us, read our magaizines, etc, that would amount to about 75 dollars per year per person in contributions. Poor souls indeed. Busting their t
ales to make 75 dollars. Or maybe, they actually appreciate that Bibles and literature costs money. If you bought a cd-rom at a store, it may cost $50.00. The society comes out with a new updated library in cd-rom form every year. It is free of charge. Anyone can donate what they like.
2 CORINTHIANS 9:7
“Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

Unlike the people I mentioned passing around the money basket for all to see, there is absolutey no feeling of compulsion. None.

Quote

I've already done the math. Now you do it. Check it. Add this 50 cents a day onto the 1.2 billion number I came to. It doesn't really change the 1.2 billion at all.

Quote

As you know, our literature is offered without charge. And legally, we are not allowed to charge money for our literature. We may ask for donations to our worldwide work. But we may not legally charge money for it. I'm sure with all the opposition we face, if we did that, we'd be put out of what you consider, business.
And yes, I don't know how much it costs to make a bible. But go in a book store, it and it would be $25.00. Here, I estimated $2.00. Really, I have no idea.
Do you think I overestimated. Maybe only $1.50 to make a Bible. That may account for an extra 23 million or 1/10th of the extra .2 billion that it added up to.

Quote

Quote
During the centuries since then, however, the churches of Christendom have engaged in every conceivable money-raising scheme to finance their activities.

Stereo type?

Are you serious? Stero type? Didn't the bishops used to ask for indulgences or money so that the person wouldn't go to hell? Their methods haven't changed…too too much.

Quote

Your guess will not suffice. My guess about the number of the elect did not suffice either. Now the tables have turned.

Your guess was based on false reasoning and extremely poor math. You believe that 2 out of 5 witnesses are supposed to be annointed because 2 of the five you met were. I'm sure there's some math term for the error you committed having to do with looking at small numbers and expecting them to be…
Without looking at a coin, flip a coin once. It lands heads. Flip it twice, heads again, Then, three times tails. I guess if you flipped it a thousand times, according to your logic, it would land heads precisely 400 times. Actually, it would be 500, give or take one or two. The higher the numbers we deal with, the more precise we get. Flip the coin a million times and it will be half a million heads, give or take one. It won't be 400,000. The sample you've looked at was far too small.
Can't you see that?

Quote

Your guess will not suffice.

You say my guess will not suffice. Why should your guess suffice. You come to me with anti-JW website accusations, that started with the number billion in revenue, and that's it. I come to you with actual figures. Do the math yourself. Have you even tried. Try it. See how ridiculously small the cost of these things will have to be for them to add up to a billion. Then ask yourself why you continue to accuse? Is it the math? Or is it something else?

Actually, I see now that if we went with each kingdom hall being what you stated: 20,000 including the free labor, then that would take 160 million off, so the .2 billion (200 million) over would be only 40 million over. Actually, 20,000 now that I think of it is a much closer figure as a lot of these new kingdom halls are made in places with very cheap materials. They use what they have. and if they have bamboo, and brick, and that's what the houses are made of in that area, that is what is used. So, averaging out all the kingdom halls everywhere, i guess 20,000 is an ok guess, and it brings the number much lower and closer to the billion you are so interested in.

david

October 19, 2006 at 11:08 pm#30862

david

Participant

Quote

Once again, compelely wrong. Only off by decades.

Author
Posts

Viewing 20 posts - 301 through 320 (of 847 total)

←1 2 3…151617…41 42 43 →

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

Navigation

Jehovah's Witness Church

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

TOPICS

Navigation

Log in with your credentials

Forgot your details?

Create Account