Jehovah's Witness Church

[david]

Casey:
“Anyway, I can see this has become a sort of antogonistic thread. Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? I do not know so I am reluctant to say.”–page 17, oct 3

These words above, may as well be applied to yourself.

Casey:
“Debra: They are very, very deceitful. They will not study literature, Church history and as you can see from David's admission, they won't even go to college to learn the basics of how to teach and understand Scripture.”–Casey

Debra, do you think the early Christians went “to college to learn the basics of how to teach and understand scripture?” Or did they perhaps study in the religious schools of higher learning, which I guess back then, involved the pharisses and scribes?

No. They were compelety separate from that world. They did not look to Satan's world to learn from. We are not a part of satan's world.

Paul had been taught by them, by Gamaliel, a well known pharisee.
Gamaliel was so esteemed that he was the first to be called rabban, a title higher than that of rabbi. In fact, Gamaliel became such a highly respected individual that the Mishnah says of him: “When Rabban Gamaliel the elder died the glory of the Torah ceased, and purity and saintliness [lit. “separation”] perished.”—Sotah 9:15.

Was it this teaching that helped Paul? Did he recommend the other disciples go learn from Greek philosophy, or rabbinic schools of higher learning?

We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School. You'll notice that we, unlike everyone else, actually all partake in the ministry. We are all taught effective ways to speek to people, and public speaking.
As far as college, secularly, that's completely up to the individual. But many Jehovah's Witnesses do not find comfort in higher paying jobs that require more time. We are focused on preaching God's kingdom. Money is not our goal.
As the one who started this thread, said on page 16:
“For me, I determined that the JW's were the only group where each member is involved in preaching the gospel. They dont just go to church, shout, PAY THEIR TITHES, and expect the preachers (most interested in increasing their church membership, buildings, and pocket books) to do the good works with THEIR TITHES. Just so they can be blessed financially. “

Casey said:
“they won't even go to college to learn the basics of how to teach and understand Scripture. Don't let me mislead you…”

TOO LATE. you've already mislead her.

hmm. I would say Jehovah's Witnesses the world over as a group are far better equiped to “teach and understand Scripture” than any other group on the planet.
We have an entire meeting each week devoted to making ourselves better at this. We don't need to be taught by Catholics or Lutherins, or whatever or go their schools to know how to do this.

A conference of religious leaders in Spain noted this:

“Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greatest preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advantage of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.

Catholics have tried to go from door to door with the good news. They failed.

Casey, do you know of any other group that claim to be Christians where each member is trained in speaking with people about the Bible? Do you?

As well, on scholars, the “experts” in the field: Human wisdom isn't always to be trusted. (ps 146:3) Scholars have 'proven' evolution. They've 'proven' the trinity. Often, they've proven countless wrong things only to replace them with different wrong things.

Again, I would like to say this: The apostles were men who were viewed by the Jewish clergy as “UNLETTERED AND ORDINARY,” indicating that their education was not from the schools of higher learning. (Acts 4:13)

Casey and others may too wish to look at us this way. Fine, call us unlettered, if it helps your aims. The “lettered” scribes and Pharisees downgraded the long-awaited Messiah, mocking his teachings and his followers.

Again, what Casey stated regarding Nick, and what he himself seems to want to do:
It seems sir that you [Nick] make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone?

david

[david]

I was once going from door to door, preaching the good news of the kingdom and encouraging people to look into their Bible (Mat 24:14) when I came across a Pastor who invited me in.
He kept repeating to me: “Jesus is Jehovah.” He said it like 20 times. I think he was expecting me to just 'get' what he was saying by him repeating: “Jesus is Jehovah.” He brought me to his room, his library and showed me the shelves behind him as he spoke to me and without saying it directly, pointed back to them and said:
'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is Jehovah.'

No. I wanted to see it from the Bible. Not from his books of higher learning. Not from his books of … well, mostly Greek philosophy and tradition really.
He couldn't show it to me from the Bible.

I was quite upset with his method of showing me that “Jesus is Jehovah.” Bringing me to his room of books that he's read to show me how much smarter he was then me, and I could just accept what he said.

Ridiculous.

His teaching methods were ridiculous and his belief was wrong.

[Debra]

Hi David
I know what it's like to have someone telling you they know more than you because they have studied for years. All you can do is step back out of the arena because they probably do know more than you, but book knowledge isn't going to save you.
I guess the early Christians would have been instructed in some way in the Law, but I'm not a scholar of this, so not qualified to say much on the subject.
I only have one question, I'm not interested in debating with you on your doctrine. Can you tell me why Jehovah's Witnesses don't partake of the bread and wine?
And how would you know if you were one of the 144000?
I hope you know the answer.

[david]

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Hi David I havn't been following this thread, but I do have a question. Why don't Jehovah”s Witness partake of the Bread and Wine when it is passed around? I have been to your church because I was invited by 2 women who came to my door and we shared for a couple of hours, our beliefs. They didn't mention to me before I went that I am to pass the cup and bread on to the next person, so I was shocked and a little annoyed at the time. The reason I was given when I asked was,”If your not one of the 144000, you don't drink the wine or eat the bread” This answer did not help me to understand at all. Maybe you could explain this to me

–Debra

Hi Debra. First, I’m sorry they didn’t explain to you what would be happening. It most unusual for them not to. They should have. And they also should have went into a little more detail as to why only those who make up the heavenly government, (the kingdom) partake of the bread and wine.
Debra, you also asked why they consider themselves “set apart from everyone else.”

LUKE 8:10
“[Jesus] said [to his disciples]: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.”

So it seems that some people would understand this heavenly government, this kingdom of God and most….wouldn’t. The Witnesses that came to you, were really there to talk to you about this kingdom or point to it as the only hope for mankind.

MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses are set apart, as you say in that they are really the only ones doing this in all the nations.

To your question.

“Whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and thus let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment against himself if he does not discern the body.” (1Co 11:27-29)

Unclean, unscriptural, or hypocritical practices would disqualify one from eating. If he should eat in that condition, he would be eating and drinking judgment against himself. He would be failing to appreciate Christ’s sacrifice, its purpose, and its meaning. He would be showing disrespect and contempt for it. (Compare Heb 10:28-31.)
The scripture above is not the answer to your question, but does show the importance of not partaking unworthily.

Jesus had gathered his 12 apostles, saying to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer.” (Lu 22:15) But John’s eyewitness account indicates that Jesus dismissed the traitorous Judas before instituting the Memorial meal. During the Passover, Jesus, knowing that Judas was his betrayer, dipped a morsel of the Passover meal and handed it to Judas, instructing him to leave. (Joh 13:21-30) Mark’s account also intimates this order of events. (Mr 14:12-25) During the Lord’s Evening Meal that followed, Jesus passed the bread and the wine to the 11 remaining apostles, telling them to eat and drink. (Lu 22:19, 20) Afterward he spoke to them as “the ones that have stuck with me in my trials,” a further indication that Judas had been dismissed.—Lu 22:28.
That really doesn’t have anything to do with your question. Just a beef I have with what some people think.

Anyway, on with your question:
LUKE 22:19,28,29
“Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” . . .“YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”

Who partook when Jesus instituted the Lord’s Evening Meal shortly before he died? Eleven faithful followers to whom Jesus said: “I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” (Luke 22:29) They were all persons who were being invited to share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom. (John 14:2, 3) All who partake of the bread and wine today should also be persons whom Christ brings into that ‘covenant for a kingdom.’

How many are there that partake? Jesus said that only a “little flock” would receive the heavenly Kingdom as their reward. (Luke 12:32)

LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”

The full number would be 144,000. (Rev. 14:1-3) That group began to be selected in 33 C.E. Reasonably, there would be only a small number partaking now.

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed that, at his presence, there would be persons who would do good to his spiritual brothers, visiting them in time of need and giving them assistance. (Mt 25:31-46)
Would these, who might attend the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, qualify as partakers of the emblems? The Scriptures say that God will provide, through his holy spirit, evidence and assurance to those qualified to partake of the emblems as “heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ,” that they are God’s sons.
The apostle Paul writes: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” He goes on to explain that there are others who benefit from God’s arrangement for these sons:
“For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.” (Ro 8:14-21)
Since the joint heirs with Christ are to ‘rule as kings and priests over the earth,’ the Kingdom will benefit those living under it. (Re 5:10; 20:4, 6; 21:3, 4)
Those benefiting would naturally be interested in the Kingdom and its development. Such persons therefore would attend and observe the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, but not being joint heirs with Christ and spiritual sons of God, they would not partake of the emblems as joint participants in the death of Christ, with hope of resurrection to a heavenly life with him.—Ro 6:3-5.

That's essentially the answer.

But what I would like to add, is how we look at the kingdom of God and what it is, as that's central to our understanding. I know I've already put this down somewhere on here, but I can't find it:

WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM?

GOD’S KINGDOM–A GOVERNMENT
ISAIAH 9:6, 7, RS:
“To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; “dominion,” JB, NE; “princely rule,” NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.”

The word rendered “kingdom” in the Christian Greek Scriptures is ba·si·leía, meaning “a kingdom, realm, the region or country governed by a king; kingly power, authority, dominion, reign; royal dignity, the title and honour of king.” (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, 1908, p. 67)

GOD’S KINGDOM CRUSHES OTHER KINGDOMS AND BRINGS TO NOTHING ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS.
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father,
when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
PSALMS 2:8, 9:
“Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”
(God’s kingdom will accomplish so much. But one thing that I mention here, is that it will remove imperfect earthly human governments which have not solved mankind’s problems. As well, unlike human governments, this kingdom “cannot be shaken.”–Heb 12:28)

GOD’S KINGDOM–IS IT IN THE HEARTS OF THE PHARISEES?
Many believe that Jesus said God’s kingdom was something inside of people’s hearts. According to one rendition of Jesus’ words to wicked Pharisees, he said: “The kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21, NIV, KJV) Did Jesus mean that the Kingdom was in the wicked hearts of those corrupt men, the very ones he condemned to Gehenna? (Mat 23:33) No. A more accurate translation of the original Greek reads: “The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation) Jesus, who was in their midst, thus referred to himself as the future King.
In this regard The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states: “Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ . . . understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ . . . is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—vs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole N[ew] T[estament] presentation of the idea.”
A footnote to Luke 17:21 in the New International Version shows that Jesus’ words could be rendered: “The kingdom of God is among you.” Other Bible translations read: “The kingdom of God is among you” or “is in the midst of you.” (The New English Bible; The Jerusalem Bible; Revised Standard Version) Jesus did not mean that the Kingdom was in the hearts of the proud Pharisees whom he was addressing. Rather, as the long-awaited Messiah and King-Designate, Jesus was in their very midst. Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler and subjects.
It’s not surprising that relatively few understand God’s kingdom.

MATTHEW 13:11
“To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.”

A KINGDOM HAS RULERS

JESUS IS ONE OF THESE RULERS
DANIEL 7:13, 14:
“With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.”
REVELATION 11:15
“And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.””

JESUS HAS CO-RULERS, JOINT HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM
DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
DANIEL 7:22
“until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”
DANIEL 7:27
““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’”
REVELATION 1:6
“and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(At Revelation 14:1-3 these “bought from the earth” to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)
ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (See Heb 1:2)
JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”
REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
REVELATION 22:3-5
“And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and HIS SLAVES will render him sacred service; and THEY will see his face, and his name will be on THEIR foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and THEY have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon THEM, and they will RULE AS KINGS forever and ever.”

JESUS IS THE RULER OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”“
REVELATION 19:16
“And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”
REVELATION 21:24
“And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.”
PSALM 89:27
“Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.”

JESUS’ CO-RULERS ARE KINGS, JUDGES, PRIESTS AND MAKE UP GOD’S KINGDOM, THE GOVERNMENT
REVELATION 20:4-5
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
REVELATION 20:6:
“They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)
1 CORINTHIANS 4:8
“YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
1 CORINTHIANS 6:2:
“Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?” (Compare Rev 20:4)
2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;”
REVELATION 5:10:
“Y
ou made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.” Really, looking only at this scripture, that word could be translated either way. But based on the rest of the Bible, it seems to me the word “over” is a better translation.)
LUKE 22:28-30
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4.

A SELECT BODY OF RULERS, A LITTLE FLOCK OF 144,000 MAKES UP THE KINGDOM, RULING WITH CHRIST
It was not intended that great masses of mankind be included in this administrative body.
LUKE 12:32:
“Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
(In the original language used in this part of the Bible, the word “little” (mi·kroś) is the opposite of great (mégas), and its use at Luke 12:32 refers to quantity or fewness in number. Hence, membership in “the kingdom of the heavens” does not allow for an unlimited number. To illustrate: If you were asked to pour a little water into a glass, you would make sure that it did not overflow. So, too, the “little flock” cannot be made up of overflowing numbers of people. God’s Kingdom has a set (“little”) number of corulers with Christ. The exact number of these rulers, 144,000, was revealed to the apostle John.)
REVELATION 14:1-3:
“I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, who have been BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH.”
REVELATION 7:3-4,9
“saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of [spiritual] Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”

OTHER SHEEP, THE GREAT CROWD
It is obvious that the holy ones will be ruling over someone. Who might that be? (Matt. 5:5; 6:10)
JOHN 10:16
““And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Or, as Today’s English Version puts it, “There are other sheep which belong to me that are not in this sheep pen.”
(A “little flock” bought from the earth will be given the kingdom, and be given the special privilege presiding as rulers, judges and priests. Who do they rule over? The “other sheep.” “And they will become one flock.” We notice that he did not say, “One flock in one fold.” But though there might be separate folds, there was to be only “one shepherd.)
If the fold, or pen, represents an ongoing distinction between two classes of Christians, then it cannot represent the difference between Jews and Gentiles, because that distinction is abolished in the spirit-begotten “little flock.” (Gal. 3:28; Eph. 2:15)
The only ongoing distinction between two classes of Christians would be the distinction between spiritual Jews and those who are not such. This is the same as the distinction between Abraham’s “seed” and the “nations” who would be blessed by it. It is the same as the distinction between the 144,000 members of spiritual Israel, mentioned in Revelation chapter 7, and the limitless “great crowd” of persons from all the nations mentioned right afterward.

After the mention of the 144,000 who have been bought from the earth, we are told:
REVELATION 7:9
“After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”
PSALM 72:7-8
“In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. And he [Jesus, Prince of Peace] will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.”
(The subjects of God’s Kingdom will be a global family of humans who are submissive to Christ’s leadership. See Heb 1:2)

ok, that's it.

[david]

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I guess the early Christians would have been instructed in some way in the Law, but I'm not a scholar of this, so not qualified to say much on the subject.

–Debra
If only scholars spoke, the world would be a very quite backward place.

Jesus told his disciples who were far from being scholars:

MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””

So the disciples would make more disciples, and they would “teach them” to obverse the things Christ commanded, including the command to preach. And so it would go.
If only scholars can teach, then all Christians must be scholars, based on what Jesus said.
Of course, this isn't so.

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I know what it's like to have someone telling you they know more than you because they have studied for years. All you can do is step back out of the arena because they probably do know more than you, but book knowledge isn't going to save you.

ECCLESIASTES 12:12-13
“As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh. The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man.”

[Debra]

Hi David
Thank you for taking the time to explain, I'm going to need a bit of time before responding, there's alot of reading there.

[Casey S Smith 29]

David I can't make heads or tails from you. Where did I imply that you had to be a scholar to be a believer? Where? Search the WHOLE thread and quote me once where I did. You misquoted me by posting what I said to Debra, “don't let me mislead you…” But what did I actually say? That is the problem I find time and again with the Watchtower and it's followers. You people are really good nay, experts at misquoting people to fit your fancy. Her is what I said to Debra…

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Don't let me mislead you, I am not saying one has to go to Bible College or Seminary to follow God correctly. But if you plan on teaching people, then you better have some experience and learning to back up what you say.

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Casey: “Anyway, I can see this has become a sort of antogonistic thread. Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? I do not know so I am reluctant to say.”–page 17, oct 3 These words above, may as well be applied to yourself.

Actually No…once again David. What I said was this:

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It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense

But David, it seems you cut/paste what you like to make others seem as if they are bombarding you and you are the poor helpless sheep on hear with no one to help you. I am giving my defense. I am not taking jabs at you sir and running with it. I am not trying to “jab” you at all. I am not here to make yo feel belittled and dumb, if I have I apologize.

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Debra, do you think the early Christians went “to college to learn the basics of how to teach and understand scripture?” Or did they perhaps study in the religious schools of higher learning….Was it this teaching that helped Paul? Did he recommend the other disciples go learn from Greek philosophy, or rabbinic schools of higher learning?

The ones you say from the beginning such as the unlearned apolostles (I agree with you here) knew Greek. Actually some of them wrote the Scriptures. They would not need to learn the Biblical languages David. They spoke, wrote and interacted in daily life with the languages. If you and I wrote the Bible and were the apostles (neither you nor I are scholars or have degrees…well I am actually working on my B.A. in Biblical Studies…hee hee hee) we would have written the Scriptures in English. And we would have likewise known Hebrew since the Olt Testament we would have known deeply. However they may not have been the case since the normally used OT was the Greek Septuagint. But my point is you and I would not have had to go to “schools of higher learning” to learn English or theology. Our WHOLE LIVES would have been Greek and theology. We are from America David. Unless we were born into a strongly devout 24-7 Christian family, we would have to learn Scripture and theology. It seems the term “theology” is taken on this site as a negative term. The term THEOLOGY is the study of God. Are we not all on here studying God? Do we not all on here have a passion to know Him? English terms are not bad if they define the object of our intent. So when I mention studying theology I am simply implying the study of God. David your theology is based in your kingdom hall so you are not far removed from any “schools” sir. I am not being mean….just realize that the study of theology is just the study we all on here are trying to attempt as best we can in our finite punny little human brains that we only use 10% at best.

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We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School…hmm. I would say Jehovah's Witnesses the world over as a group are far better equiped to “teach and understand Scripture” than any other group on the planet. We have an entire meeting each week devoted to making ourselves better at this…We don't need to be taught by Catholics or Lutherins, or whatever or go their schools to know how to do this.

Well now David it seems you are contradicting yourself. You base Christian colleges and seminary's as negative and Pharisee and Saducee and Scribe's of Jesus' day professors who teach at these schools.
Yet you then state: “We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School” Why do you need that school David? To grow and learn the ways of God. What is different about me going to a theological-semarian school that teaches what I believe and the school you go to? At least mine will give me college credits to have a degree. You state witnesses are not interested in making money so they don't go to college because they want to focus on kingdom agendas. The odd thing is that is why people like myself DO go to college! And I posted previous examples of how the witnesses do not focus on wealth or money. The Watchtower is a mutli billion dollar industry…not ministry – INDUSTRY. If you doubt my word let's define it:

– the people or companies engaged in a particular kind of commercial enterprise; “each industry has its own trade publications”

– the organized action of making of goods and services for sale; “American industry is making increased use of computers to control production”

– diligence: persevering determination to perform a task; “his diligence won him quick promotions”; “frugality and industry are still regarded as virtues”

Moving on – I actually have to defend school knowledge against my “own” people of believers who are fellow Protestants. Suppose you go to a professor's house. God gave us a brain to think for ourselves and a mind to study and grow. God does not expect us to be illiterate and ignorant (not dumb – there's a difference). So getting back – you go to a professor's house. He is actually upset with his denomination in which he is a pastor and a professor at a local seminary. So, he is willing to listen to other's views and other's experiences. How can you discuss things at his level without at least knowing what his level is? If he is willing to sacrifice what he knows to listen to you, would you not return the favor? Would you not listen to what he has to say and maybe give him the benefit of being heard without being rebuked for not being in the truth and calling him a lost heathen who is not in “the truth”? Why can't the witnesses discuss things without coping out with, “they are not in the truth so they are blinded…so let's go.” And thereafter another witness will not go to that house anymore. What kind of kingdom winning is that David? That seems to be the utmost example of the pride of Pharisees and Saducees…not the other way around.

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“Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greate st preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advantage of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.

Well, I am not sure what churches this is referring to. I am sure it is Catholic from the speaker being in Spain. Latin countries are predominately Catholic ot which I will comment on below.

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Catholics have tried to go from door to door with the good news. They failed.

As I said, I will comment on. Now, I have never heard of Catholics going from door to door but I know Rome is now starting to get into the game (not to be taken as a “game” per se) of evangelisin. I find it strange that you say, I would say Jehovah's Witnesses the world over as a group are far better equiped to “teach and understand Scripture” than any other group on the planet.” For one that is a bias and bold statement. Broad is the way huh David…and MANY go that way. Let's see… 6.6 million people JW's. How many Mormons? “The official LDS web site lists the December 31, 2004 worldwide church membership at 12,275,822” It seems the Mormons likeyourselves are doing a better job going from door to door. Maybe it is because the Mormon method of teaching is 10 speeds and they are just faster = )
Back to Catholics: I studied Rome for some time and even attended a parish for a year. They likeyourselves are very devout. They like yourselves hold to one standard – Rome; witnesses – Watchtower. They like yourselves hold to two books – The Bible and Catechism; witnesses – NWT and Watchtower publications. They like yourselves believe their leaders are in the “truth” and are the “true” Church. Only witnesses don't like the word Church since it stems from their view of negative connotations with modern day Christendom, which is another negative term witnesses use. They like yourselves hold to traditions of men – Fiest Days, Marian worship or veneration, purgatory, saints, immortal spirit of a human, hell, heaven…etc,etc; witnesses – the majority of traditions that have been passed down from your original founder – Russel:

“The sect now known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses was started by Charles Taze Russell, who was born in 1852 and worked in Pittsburgh as a haberdasher. He was raised a Congregationalist, but at the age of seventeen he tried to convert an atheist to Christianity and ended up being converted instead—not to outright atheism, but to agnosticism. Some years later he went to an Adventist meeting, was told that Jesus would be back at any time, and got interested in the Bible.

The leading light of Adventism had been William Miller, a flamboyant preacher who predicted that the world would end in 1843. When it didn’t, he “discovered” an arithmetical error in his eschatological calculations and said it would end in 1844. When his prediction again failed, many people became frustrated and withdrew from the Adventist movement, but a remnant, led by Ellen G. White, went on to form the Seventh-Day Adventist Church.

It was this diminished Adventism which influenced Russell, who took the title “Pastor” even though he never got through high school. In 1879, he began the Watch Tower—what would later be known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the teaching organ of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In 1908 he moved its headquarters to Brooklyn, where it has remained ever since.

Before he got his religious career well underway, Russell promoted what he called “miracle wheat,” which he sold at sixty dollars per bushel. He claimed it would grow five times as well as regular wheat. In fact, it grew slightly less well than regular wheat, as was established in court when Russell was sued. Later he marketed a fake cancer cure and what he termed a “millennial bean” (which a wag has said probably got that name because it took a thousand years to sprout).

Russell taught his followers the non-existence of hell and the annihilation of unsaved people (a doctrine he picked up from the Adventists), the non-existence of the Trinity (he said only the Father, Jehovah, is God), the identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel, the reduction of the Holy Spirit from a person to a force, the mortality (not immortality) of the soul, and the return of Jesus in 1914.

When 1914 had come and gone, with no Jesus in sight, Russell modified his teachings and claimed Jesus had, in fact, returned to Earth, but that his return was invisible. His visible return would come later, but still very soon. It would result in the final conflict between God and the Devil—the forces of good and the forces of evil—in which God would be victorious. This conflict is known to Witnesses as the battle of Armageddon, and just about everything the Witnesses teach centers around this doctrine.”

So how far removed is this from traditions of the Catholic Church. Very far indeed in context but not far at all as traditions being passed down. Catholics like yourselves believe they are the only ONES whom Jesus passed down his authority – Peter to popes, to Cardinals, to Diocese, to local parish priests; witnesses – Watchtower, elect judges, to local elders of the kingdom halls.

Now here is where the two groups branch. Catholics have 2000 years of doctors and theologians and an unbroken descent of popes. Catholics have been at this 1900 hundred years before Dispenstationalism Premillenialism ever existed which eventually came about the 7th Day Adventis which brought about your founder James Taze Russel which brought about you. Now, one reason the Catholics have not been successful at door to door witnessing is because their religion is so exhasted and spread out, it would be very difficult to explain everything in an hour. Which may be a good thought? How come witnesses can try and explain the truth in an hour? Jesus taught his disciples for three and a half years and then even afterward had to teach him by the Holy Spirit even at times visibly appearing to them post-resurrection and in glory even at times to “set them straight”.

Catholic problems? I discussed them briefly. That would be another thread I don't feel like starting.

David says:

“We have an entire meeting each week devoted to making ourselves better at this…We don't need to be taught by Catholics or Lutherins, or whatever or go their schools to know how to do this.”

Really? OF course you don't need Catholics or Lutherans to teach you. You have the Watchtower to teach you. You don't have to go to school? What about:

” We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School”

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Casey, do you know of any other group that claim to be Christians where each member is trained in speaking with people about the Bible? Do you?

Well, since “my” group are called evangelicals then they might give us away huh? Now, each member being trained is up to that individuals discretion and choice. Should we all be trained in the ways of God. Sure! Do we all? No. Do ALL witnesses? No, I have met to many whom I even had to explain what they believed before we could talk. That doesn't mean you are not trained. It means not all people have the same zeal and are not at the Spiritual level as others. There are “babe
s” in Christ. There are carnal Christians whom God is patient in dealing with. There are those who need milk first not meat.

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As well, on scholars, the “experts” in the field: Human wisdom isn't always to be trusted. (ps 146:3) Scholars have 'proven' evolution. They've 'proven' the trinity.

Well, actually lumping scholars in a field of science and the study of anthropology and the like is not fair here sir. How can you bunch a scholar in a field of atheism with a field of a believer? DO you think that believers who are scholars do not depend on the Spirit in their discovery, learnings and findings? I have studied under well known leaders. I studied under Dr. Charles Ryrie who came out with the Ryrie Study Bible. I have read through his NASB along with his outlines and historical-theological notes. This man was very meek and humble in his teaching methods and discussions. Before class he would pray, “God, let not my human frail teachings be the method of learning, but may we all including myself depend on your Holy Spirit for learning.” He did not say, “this is the way it is…this is how you HAVE to believe…” He would present his view of hermeneutics (dispensational-pretrib-pre-millenialism…I can explain that if you would like. I mean it. I am not trying to say I know more than you or you are dumb. I understand what it is like to learn things that I amnot familar with. Seriously, if I say something you have never heard like the five-points of Calvin you needed to look up, I would gladly explain it to you sir) and actually compare it with other methods of interpretaion (hermeneutics). Let me explain. Dispenstationalism is the process by which Scripture is interpretted against. God has given at least 5 economies or dispensations. Normally Dispensationalists believe in 7. I can't think of them all at the top of my head but I will try. The first one is Innocence of Adam and Eve. The next is the Patriarchal period. The next is the Law/Prophets. The next is Grace of the Church and final is the Millenium. Now pre-trib is a rapture of the Church (I do not hold to mind you) prior to a seven year tribulation. Premillenial is what JW's are. a Millenial reign of Christ for 1000 years. Now, the millenium in Dispensationalist or actually as in all pre-millenialsts is a little different than what the JW's teach. The normal view is that the wicked are in a holding place called hell or hades. At the rapture the Church is taken up in an immortal body where the spirit and body meet. The rest of the righteous were taken at the descent of Christ into Hades where they were taken from a place called Abraham's bosom. They were then taken to heaven. There are differing views in this camp though. Some view what I have just stated, some hold that the OT saints will not be resurrected until the end of the millenium. NOw the wicked? They will remain in hell until the end of the millenium where where the wicked during the millenium will go to if they die in that state. At the end of the millenium the wicked are taken from hell, judged according to their works based on the law for they did not die in the Grace of God being the righteousness of Christ. Then death and hell (hades) are thrown into gehenna (lake of fire) where they will be tortured forever. I do not hold to this mind you. I am not sure about the millenium. For if the millenium is true, the the Levitical priest hood of sacrificing is reinstated which contradicts Hebrews saying that Christ surpassed the shadow of things to come giving a better covenant of His blood since the blood of bulls and goats could not clean the conscience of the Israelite and had to be done annually as to where Christ entered the very Holy of Holies presenting His blood into the heavens of the Father. Now there is another view but I will not go into that unless you ask.
My original point was this: Dr Ryrie spend years coming up with his Study Bible. Not once did he think he was a Pharisee, Saducee or Scribe. He just wanted to common believer to better understand Scripture. The millions of believers whom have purchased this bible and who have grown in knowledge that “leads to everlasting life” have benefited greatly. For instance, yes there are some notes where he will place his view on the passage, yet he gives in most references other views to let the reader determine what he things the passage might be. He will point out semetic understandings of that time that the average American believer might misunderstand or take out of context. These are wonderful things to know and to grow in Grace. I have learned immensly from this Bible amongst his published works. What difference is that from your “Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School”? Would it not benefit the JW's to come out with a NWT with notes as a study bible. I think a lot of confusion or misrepresentation could be cleared up.

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The “lettered” scribes and Pharisees downgraded the long-awaited Messiah, mocking his teachings and his followers.

For the sake of not being redundant I hope I made my point clear. Comparing my scholars with the religious arrogant teachers of the law from that time is simply infair and without any substantial basis that you have yet to present. In other words, how are they like them? Because they are trained? I could say your elders are the same because they are trained. Yet, I do not believe that and to infer that would be as unfair. I have yet to make a claim that your leaders are Pharisees or Saducees. That would be just a mean opinion I would have.

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He brought me to his room, his library and showed me the shelves behind him as he spoke to me and without saying it directly, pointed back to them and said: 'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is Jehovah.'

David did this really happen? I have yet to meet ANYONE who would say such things. I find it very hard to believe this comment. “'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning.”
There is not a Christian scholar (except a liberal maybe or a proces theologian) I know who would make such an ignorant claim. “I'm smarter than you”? He may have been but did he truly say such? Seems doubtful. I am not saying you are lying. I am saying you stretched what he really said to make him appear arrogant. No scholar calls his scholastic training “schools of higher learning.”

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Not from his books of … well, mostly Greek philosophy and tradition really. He couldn't show it to me from the Bible.

Maybe not an English Bible. But Greek Bible maybe? Did you give him the opportunity to show you in the Greek some grammatical contructs? As I stated. I can and when time permits, show you where the NWT does actually translate (not interpret, not textual) verses that are references to the deity of Christ, bias to fit their subordination ag
enda. Also, last night alone withing three pages of “Knowledge that leads to Everlasting Life” I found references that contradict your implications and statements/comments. Not saying you know it all, but there were others that actually went against Scripture. Coming Soon!

Tere is your root David above. Read it sir and investigate where the JW's came from. I have looked into modern day groups who fall under the title of “Christian”. I spoke with them, studies their literature, gave them the benefit of the doubt and did not interupt them as they spoke their views. At times when they presented their views, I would ask them about a postion I would be familiar with and give Scriptural (not literature) evidence. Normally, they would parrot what their leaders words. Other times they would be humble and say, well I am not sure about that but I will investigate it and get back with you…they seldom ever did. For instance, I had two witnesses come over (one was just plain sarcastic and rude) the nicer and more listening attentive one who would hear me out wihtout saying I was wrong was presented with a question I had about their view of predestination. I asked the younger one who was actually listening to me and not cutting me off with some sarcatic remark a question in this regards, “how is it that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world and the saints whose names were written in the Book of Life are likewise from the foundation of the world.” The kid replied he would get back with me. They never came back. I was disappointed because I love talking about God to people who will listen. It's nice to have people in my house who have a same passion for God that I do. Most witnesses do. As I was saying…I investigated all the claims of these groups.
Let me go back some years to show you where I come from…maybe that will help.
Raised Independent Baptist from my mother's side
Charismatic from my dad's (divorced)
Born again at age 8 and baptized (at the Independent Baptist Church). Let me clarify something. When one is baptized in a Protestant group, they are baptized into Christ not the denomination.
I was on fire for God preaching end times and salvation to all my neighbors and friends in my neighborhood (most of their parents stopped letting them hang around me because I was viewed as a fanatic…it hurt and I balled like a baby) till about 12 when I fell away due to the strict Arminiamism roots that Pentecostal groups come from. Jacob Arminius: Was a toddler when John Calvin died. Calvin taught the predestination of the elect (for the very phrase “elect” means chosen) and Beza after him expounded his doctrine (which I do adhere to I might add, though you know). Arminius had a problem with Calvin's views hence he went the other extreme and taught the choice of humans that somehow go against the decrees and will of God. I will not go further for it is a long story.
So, I decide if I was going to hell, I wasn't going to hell inthe Church. I got into drugs, alcohlic at 14, gangs, sleeping with as many girls as I could…you know flesh, wordly, Satanic desires. After misery and God's Spirit tugging me I repented April 6th, 1997 just a month before I turned twenty. You see though I walked away from God, he never walked away from me. No one can snatch me out of the Father's hand or Jesus's hand. Moving on…
Well, I came back to the Charismatic Assembly of God Church and had a very intense awesome experience with the Holy Spirit in which I fell in His presence and felt like I had taken a thousand showers. I felt pure it was awesome! However I quicly noticed some inconsitoncies in the Assmebly of God/Charismatic Church, Charismatic mainly…the fear of going to hell if you had one unconfessed sin before you died I noticed weighed heavily on my heart and other fellow Charismatics. Then a thought occured to me. Did I lose my salvation when I told God I was leaving him…did I lose it a day, a week, a year after…when? Then I noticed my Baptist friends and the Baptist minister who truly explained the gospel to me and baptized me at eight had this unusual peace. He understood that His Salvation was by God and not by him. He understood that once you are born again you are sealed until the day of redemption. So, I looked into it. I spoke with tons of Baptist ministers and went to so many Baptist Churches I couldn't even coun't them on all fingers and toes.
There were more problems I noticed though in the Charismatic Pentecostal movement…they would say, “thus saith the Lord…” Now, I could give you a whole exhaustive story of the past nine years. Let me suffice it to say, after much confusion in the summer of '97 I picked up Scripture alone and did not pick up a Christian book for years. I read through the Bible every year and twice in '02.
There were questions lurking…why are there so many Mormons, JW's, Methodist, Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, Assemblies of God, Charismatics, Nazarens, Church of Christs, Bible Churches, Nondenomination-Interdenominations…followers? What divided them? What Scriptural basis seperates them? Who founded them? When did they come about and what circumstances brought them about.I learned of Joseph Smith and the Mormon doctrines (which are so far removed from Scripture it would be comical if there weren't so many going into destruction for believing their false prophets). I learned of the coucils of Nicea, Chalcedon, Athanasius, Trent (counter reformation), Westminster confession, the Protestant beginnings of 1517 with Martin Luther's 95 Thesis which brought about ALL the denominations we have aside from Roman Catholicism. I learned the differences between the essentials and nonessentials of denominations and the verses and views that seperate us but the essentials that unify us. Yes David, the Watchtower owes its roots to Martin Luther. The very man who devoutly held the Trinity, predestination and the community of ALL believers partaking the Lord's Supper. You group came from the Dispensational craze of the 1800's. Most denominations were on alert for the second coming. The Great Disappointment of the 7th Day Adventists so called for this reason: their leader (Mr. William Miller (1782-1849) did the math (as your Watchtower is so fond of) and realized that Christ was in no doubt coming back soon:

” As a result, many thousands (called Millerites) accepted his idea that Jesus would return in the year covering 1843-1844. He had arrived at this date based upon a study of Daniel 8:14 which says, “And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.” He interpreted the 2300 evenings and mornings to be years and counted forward from 457 BC when the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem was given (Dan. 9:24-25).1 When his initial predictions failed, he adjusted his findings to conclude that Jesus would return on March 21, 1844 and then later on October 22, 1844. After these too failed, Miller quit promoting his ideas on Jesus' return and the “Millerites” broke up.”

Charles Russel came about from that. And like his leader before him, he too did some math and said the apocolypse would come about in 1914…1914 came and went. So to justify themselves, the witnesses said Christ did come back but it was invisible so no one saw it. It is kind of funny to me. “Well, hmmmmm I was wrong. How can I be right. I know, He did come back – we just didn't see it!” And thereafter the witnesses have made one miscalculation after another, or as they say prophecies:

The chronology stated that Jesus had invisibly returned to earth in 1874 to set up his kingdom, and that in 1914, at the end of the “Gentile Times”, Jesus would come to judge the earth and annihilate the wicked.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1874, the Watchtower Society started transferring all of the doctrines about 1874 to 1914. They explained that Christ's kingdom had been set up invisibly in 1914, and that although secular governments were still in pl
ace, their rule was no longer valid. Based on the Society's writings, Jehovah's Witnesses looked forward to momentous events in the year 1918.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1918, the Watchtower Society looked forward to momentous events in 1925.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1925, the Watchtower Society lost three quarters of its members.

Charles Taze Russell had been held to be the “Faithful and Wise Servant” of Matthew 24:45-47, but by 1928 the Society applied that to its leaders. They taught that the scripture was a prophecy, and that in 1918 they had been chosen by Jesus “over all that he hath”. Since they believed Jesus was ruling the world invisibly, they claimed for themselves a position as God's channel of communication with mankind.

The Society checked its predictions and explained that all of the prophecies in Matthew 24 and 25 would take place within a “single generation” (Matthew 24:34), so the time of “the end of the world” (Matthew 24:3) could be delayed as long as 30 or 40 years. In 1929, the Society built a mansion (“Beth Sarim”) to house the resurrected prophets, who were expected to arrive soon. The new definition of “generation” promised momentous events during the 1940's.

When nothing supernatural had happened by 1945, the Society extended the meaning of “generation” to 80 years (the maximum lifespan of a typical man, as explained in Psalms 90:10). “Beth Sarim” was eventually sold.

Although 1914 plus 80 equals 1994, in 1966 the Watchtower Society decided that the year 1975 was “significant”, because they had calculated that it marked the end of six thousand years since the creation of Adam and Eve. Watchtower publications strongly hinted that “the end” would come in 1975.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1975, the Watchtower Society lost many members. It explained that the time between Adam's creation and Eve's creation was not known, so the 1975 date was only speculative.

In 1980, the Society suggested that the Witnesses and the publishing staff had been overly enthusiastic about the “possibility” of Armageddon in 1975. This failed to lure back thousands who had left, but regular door-to-door preaching restored the rapid growth the Witnesses had enjoyed since the “significance” of 1975 had been announced.

When the year 1994 arrived (1914 plus 80 years), nothing supernatural happened. The Society had not ascribed any special significance [1] to 1994, but the “generation” issue was becoming awkward. The ranks of the Society's special members (the 144,000 who were “anointed”, based on an interpretation of Revelation) were dying out. The claim that Jesus had appointed the Watchtower Society special status in 1918 was becoming hard to defend.

In 1995, the Watchtower Society decided that “generation” did not mean a physical generation (i.e. 80 years) but meant “age”, as in “era”. This extended the “end times” indefinitely, although when the last of the 144,000 special members die out, the Society will have to be run by regular members.

A close inspection of Matthew 24:34 in context makes the “age” interpretation hard to understand, since Jesus speaks of the generation “passing away” (which sounds like a physical event). The Watchtower Society states that it alone understands that “generation” means “age” because it has special status, which was granted to it in 1918.

The Watchtower magazine, published by the Society, has said the end is “soon”, in every issue since it was first printed … in 1879.

——————————————————————————–

Footnotes
[1] “No Special Significance”

The Society did not consider 1994 “special”, because the end was supposed to occur within the time of a typical human lifespan (as “generation” was then interpreted), not at the end of a generation. Here are some quotations from Watchtower literature that illustrate their position prior to November 1995:
Watchtower 1968/12/01 p. 715:
… did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left. – Luke 21:24, 32-36.
Watchtower 1967/12/15 p. 751:
… the expression “this generation” was used by Jesus to mark a very limited period of time, the life-span of members of a generation of people living during the time that certain epoch-making events occurred. According to Psalm 90:10, that life-span could be of seventy years or even of eighty years. Into this comparatively short period of time must be crowded all the things that Jesus prophesied in answer to the request for a “sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion.” (Mark 13:4)
Awake! masthead from March 1988 until November 1995:
Most importantly, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away. “

I challenge you. Study just where your roots are. However, if you dare you may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. You have yet to comment on my many statements of being disfellowshipped. I sense your silence speaks volumes. If you though, are as passionate about the study and knowledge of God….search. Your eternal destiny cannot be determined by the fear of man – or your judges, elders. Think just a minute David – here me out. Why do witnesses disfellowship members just for investigating the claims of other Churches that are Chritian? What harm is there in it truly? If however they fear you could find out that they are false prophets, to keep from spreading your “heresies” to fellow witnesses, you will be removed. Look on the net David. There are thousands of stories of witnesses who were disfelloshipped for questioning their leaders. Not trying to divide but simply to wonder. It makes no since to me David – on a logical level it seems that the witnesses have some skeletons in their closet; definitley something to hide.

[Casey S Smith 29]

Debra:

Read my post to David and maybe you will see where I am coming from. However I feel I need to comment on your reply:

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Hi David I know what it's like to have someone telling you they know more than you because they have studied for years. All you can do is step back out of the arena because they probably do know more than you, but book knowledge isn't going to save you. I guess the early Christians would have been instructed in some way in the Law, but I'm not a scholar of this, so not qualified to say much on the subject. I only have one question, I'm not interested in debating with you on your doctrine. Can you tell me why Jehovah's Witnesses don't partake of the bread and wine? And how would you know if you were one of the 144000? I hope you know the answer.

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but book knowledge isn't going to save you.

Debra, the witnesses will disagree. They believe that if you adhere to their literature especially their “Knowledge that leads to everlasint life” you will be saved…with a clause of “maybe”.

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I only have one question, I'm not interested in debating with you on your doctrine.

I am not interested in debating for the sake of debating. One learns other's positions and wisdom – knowledge by learning what they have learned and even experienced. However, I do recommend you do not debate unless you know what they teach. For now, I advise you to follow the positions given and base your judgement on what is written from all sides.

[Casey S Smith 29]

PS:

David it took me 4 1/2 hours to type the above. Please read it entirely sir. I do the same of you.

[david]

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well I am actually working on my B.A. in Biblical Studies

–Casey.

Enough said. I understand now.

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At least mine will give me college credits to have a degree.

–Casey

You're right. I don't have a degree written in ink from some worldly university, saying that I'm qualified to speak about God.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-3
“Are we starting again to recommend ourselves? Or do we, perhaps, like some men, need letters of recommendation to YOU or from YOU? YOU yourselves are our letter, inscribed on our hearts and known and being read by all mankind. For YOU are shown to be a letter of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets, but on fleshly tablets, on hearts.”

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You state witnesses are not interested in making money so they don't go to college because they want to focus on kingdom agendas. The odd thing is that is why people like myself DO go to college! And I posted previous examples of how the witnesses do not focus on wealth or money. The Watchtower is a mutli billion dollar industry…not ministry – INDUSTRY.

Where is this money? Which person has it? Name a person that makes money from what we do–and I'm talking more than the $5.00 that the Bethalites receive each month to spend on personal items.
Yes, lots of money flows into our organization. We also print A LOT of literature, Bible's etc. That billion translates into $150.00 per Jehovah's Witness. Count all those who associate with us and it's about $50.00 per person, per year. So that's where the money comes from. About $50 per person. Do you know how many magazines we get a year? How many books, CD-rom's? It doesn't cost a lot to make these things, but we do receive a lot. An no, there is no tithing or anything like that. I just averaged that number out.
The money is not spent inappropriately. There is no one. I repeat, no one making money from this.

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So, he is willing to listen to other's views and other's experiences. How can you discuss things at his level without at least knowing what his level is?

A truly wise person would be able to discern the other's abilities and discuss things at any level. I've met a lot of people that thought they were smart, but weren't smart enough to communicate their thoughts so the other understood. They were not as smart as they thought. They knew big words. But didn't know how to communicate effectively.

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Would you not listen to what he has to say and maybe give him the benefit of being heard without being rebuked for not being in the truth and calling him a lost heathen who is not in “the truth”? Why can't the witnesses discuss things without coping out with, “they are not in the truth so they are blinded…so let's go.” And thereafter another witness will not go to that house anymore.

There's several wrong statements here. We do listen to people. We discuss the Bible with them. We're not interested in personal opinions or traditions or Oprah's new book, or what Dr. Phil has to say. The Bible. We point people to the Bible–not what their school taught them.
What Debra said about no one going to her house for five years doesn't make sense unless she told them not to come and even then, someone would go in a year or two to ask if that is still her stance or if she's moved and someone else lives there. We do go back. I've had discusions on here with people accusing us of repeatedly going back. Now, you accuse us of not going back. We stay away for a while if you ask us to. Then, we go back, only to see if that is still what they want.

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It seems the Mormons likeyourselves are doing a better job going from door to door.

Yes, but if you look closer at what I said, we are the only ones fulfilling this command to preach the good news OF THE KINGDOM in ALL THE NATIONS. Yes. They go to lots of people, in some countries and discuss their own message. You'll notice the official title on each watchtower is: “The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom.” Not so with them.
So yes, it's a bold statement. But a true one.

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Now, one reason the Catholics have not been successful at door to door witnessing is because their religion is so exhasted and spread out, it would be very difficult to explain everything in an hour.

Another reason would be that Catholics don't want to. Ya. Ask them. Ask them to grab a Bible and go from door to door with you. Then actually go.

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Well, since “my” group are called evangelicals then they might give us away huh?

Right. In the paper in the city where I live, there was an article a couple weeks ago–the evangielicals actuall decided to try to… evangelize. If it was something they actually do, it wouldn't have made the paper.

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David did this really happen? I have yet to meet ANYONE who would say such things.

If you read it again, you'll see that he did't actually say those words. He did point to the books behind him and explain that he's studied and read all those books, and Implied what I stated.

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There is not a Christian scholar (except a liberal maybe or a proces theologian) I know who would make such an ignorant claim. “I'm smarter than you”? He may have been but did he truly say such? Seems doubtful. I am not saying you are lying. I am saying you stretched what he really said to make him appear arrogant.

He was arragont. He stated what he believed over and over without explaining why, except to try to convinve me he was right because of the books that surrounded us. That is arrogant. And what I said, if you go back was, “without saying it directly he said” and then I used thes ” ' ” instead of thes ” ” ” to show that it was like a paraphrase and not direct quotes. I should have been m
ore clear.

Casey stated:

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Debra, the witnesses will disagree. They believe that if you adhere to their literature especially their “Knowledge that leads to everlasint life” you will be saved…with a clause of “maybe”.

That book was replaced a year ago with a newer book. that book did focus on knowledge. This next book, focuses more on a relationship with God.

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David it took me 4 1/2 hours to type the above. Please read it entirely sir. I do the same of you.

Wow. I commend you on that. But I do not have the time you have. It would take me 15 hours to repond to everything you say. Sorry, but I do not have that time. As I've asked before, if your statements are shorter, I'm much more likely to respond.

david

[Casey S Smith 29]

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David it took me 4 1/2 hours to type the above. Please read it entirely sir. I do the same of you. Wow. I commend you on that. But I do not have the time you have. It would take me 15 hours to repond to everything you say. Sorry, but I do not have that time. As I've asked before, if your statements are shorter, I'm much more likely to respond. david

You think I have the time here? I don't. I was just blessed with a slow day here at work and found our topic of importance. Believe it or not, I actually enjoy the raport with you. Yet I get frustrated when you avoid topics and then reply, “one thing at a time…” Your post above was pretty indepth so I likewise returned the favor. I did expect more comments at the plethora of info I gave you. Very disappointed. Now, I have to take more time to reitterate some points you decided were not important one, or did not have a good plausible explanation two. The latter is what I think.

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Quote well I am actually working on my B.A. in Biblical Studies –Casey. Enough said. I understand now.

You understand what sir? That I have a passion to learn Greek, Hebrew, Latin, theological constructs, Church History. Wow, I guess that makes me an evil wordly person. Believe you me, I know a bunch of people who are lost who are researching these things. Sarcasm implied.

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At least mine will give me college credits to have a degree. –Casey You're right. I don't have a degree written in ink from some worldly university, saying that I'm qualified to speak about God.

That is a silly statement. A degree in ink from a “wordly” university. I have a wife and two kids. A degree will put me in a ministrial position where I have a passion and prove I am serious about teaching with the evidence of investing time, money, and effort in acheiving a goal. Kingdom agendas…kingdom agendas…kingdom agendas…Do you not live on earth. Do you never work. Do you not care about the ocean, the sky, space, medicine, health care, mankind, weather, and the like? Apparantly not. Apparantly these things are just for worldly people. So next time you go to the hospital ask them if they went to a wordly university just to get a piece of paper with ink on it. You see David, God has appointed people for certain passions. I have no desire to be a doctor or a surgeoun. But when I was in a car accident with a callapsed left lung, ruptured spleen, crushed diaphragm, hole in my liver, and broken collar bone care flighted with eight minutes to live when they assumed I would die, where they then told my mother I would live but only the neck up, then told I would live but from the waist up…the person I wanted (though I was unconscience the whole time), the person my family and friends wanted was surgeons who went to worldy universities to obtain a doctorates to save my life. If my family was presented with a JW who couldn't fly a helicopter, who didn't know how to cut me open to fix me and then sit with them and go, “well, he is now dead because we chose not to go to a worldy university, and since your son did not die as a witness of Jehovah he will be destroyed, but let me tell you about kingdom agendas. That would not have sat well with anyone. The next time you are sick and need medicine ask them if they went to a worldy college to get a piece of paper with ink. YOu know what David…you are showing your true colors. I think I am wasting my time on a kid who hasn't got a clue of the real world. What are you? Let me guess 18-22.
You see I have a wife and two kids as I stated…that degree being accredited will earn me more money in the long run. That money will provide for my family. A man that doesn't take care of his family is worst than a nonbeliever David!

You stated:

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You're right. I don't have a degree written in ink from some worldly university, saying that I'm qualified to speak about God.

WHERE IN THE WORLD OF GOD'S GREEN AND BLUE EARTH DID I STATE THESE CLAIMS??? I know laymen (people who did not go to school David…I guess I will define EVERYTHING since you are not mature enough) who are more than qualified to speak about God. Did Paul however say let the zealous kid who has no experience teach? No, he said lest he become conceited and take a share in Satan's demise let him be mature in the faith EQUIPPED with knowledge.

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The money is not spent inappropriately. There is no one. I repeat, no one making money from this.

And you know this how? Let's discuss this logically: Logic>

Logic (from ancient Greek λόγος (logos), originally meaning the word, or what is spoken, but coming to mean thought or reason) is most often said to be the study of arguments, although the exact definition of logic is a matter of controversy amongst philosophers (see below). However the subject is grounded, the task of the logician is the same: to advance an account of valid and fallacious inference to allow one to distinguish good from bad arguments.

Ok getting back…human logic is defied by the simple math which you incorrectly gave.

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I just averaged that number out.

That makes more sense. A billion dollars = 1,000,000,000. That is a lot of paper! Let's say your industry gave every witness according to your recent poll 6,600,000; all received $150.00 That is only 906,000,000. That still leaves a million. Now, that is an extreme calculation because the Watchtower only pays it's leaders and there are not 6,000,000 of them. Logic? Yes David – SOMEONE IS INDEED TAKEN A LARGE PORTION OF THAT MONEY!

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There is no one. I repeat, no one making money from this.

You sure? Have you been to Brooklyn? Have you met your president or current overseer? Have you met the head body up there? Do you know how much he makes?

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Revenue: $951 million Industry: Publishing President: Milton Henshel Employees: 3,415

3415 @150.00 = $512,250.

1 billion dollars minues that is 999,487,750 left. That is a huge amount of paper! If that ALL goes to printing, you are responsible for the decrease of oxygen levels due to the tons of trees your industry has to be killing. Didn't I read that God will punish those who destroy
the earth? Hmmmmm food for thought.

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24th on a list of the TOP 40 NYC Corporations — up there with the likes of Hearst and Trump and several BIG name investment, accounting, and insurance firms.

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The Penn. company has revenue of $79 million and net assets of approx $600 million. The New York company is obviously the biggie, which would explain why it's been so difficult to get hold of financials for it, without actually trying to phone them and ask for a copy. Assuming (right off the top of my head) a 10% net profit %tage, the NY company would accumulate approx. $100 million dollars to it's net assets every year. Confirmation that we are talking about a multi-billion dollar enterprise.

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The watchtower do have a lot of money – if they want to show them. Some times they simply try to say they have NOTHING. Check out this: I followed the link on the “Support freedom” banner, and checked out “Guidestar”. http://www.guidestar.org A search for “Watchtower”, naturally came up with their “charitable” work, and it's really impressive! Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Florida, Inc. 900 RED MILLS RD WALLKILL,NY 12589 Program / Activities Information currently not available in database Financial Info Assets: $0 Income: $0 This organization files an IRS Form 990 or 990-EZ. —————————- Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. 25 Columbia Hts Brooklyn,NY 11201 http://www.watchtower.org Information in this report was supplied by the nonprofit organization within the last two years. Who We Are The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a non-profit religious organization dedicated to teaching members and others outside the organization about God (Jehovah). We strive to maintain high moral standards that correspond to what Jehovah sees are appropriate. We have houses of worship (Kingdom Halls) in 234 lands around the world. Program / Activities Religion Related, Spiritual Development N.E.C. Location(s) Served All Countries and Areas of the World (234 Lands) Contact Info Tel: (718) 625-3600 [email protected] Contact: Mr. Aaron Chandler, Baptised Jehovah's Witness Financial Info Assets: $0 Income: $0 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church. It makes its audited financial statements available to the public upon request. Chief Executive: Mr. Milton Henschel No. of Board Members: 13 No. of Full Time Employees: 0 No. of Part-Time Employees: 0 No. of Volunteers: 0 more about leaders EIN: 11-1753577 Year Founded: 1879 How to Help This organization is seeking funds from contributions. These funds will be used for unrestricted operating expenses, special projects and building improvements. ——————————- Charitable Trust Agreement fbo Watchtower Society Louis R And PO Box 1308 Milwaukee,WI 53201 Program / Activities Named Trusts/Foundations N.E.C. Financial Info Fiscal Year: 1997 Assets: $6,772 Income: $120,397 This organization files an IRS Form 990 or 990-EZ. —————————— Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York 318 S Ash Cortez,CO 81321 Program / Activities Information currently not available in database Financial Info Assets: $0 Income: $0 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because it is a church. ————————- Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. 2236 NW 20TH ST OKLAHOMA CITY,OK 73107 Program / Activities Information currently not available in database Financial Info Fiscal Year: 1999 Assets: $0 Income: $0 This organization files an IRS Form 990 or 990-EZ. ——————————– I bet the help from these “charitable” societies will be huge! Yakki Da Kent I need more BOE letters, KMs and other material. Those who can send it to me – please do! The new section will be interesting!! Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses: <a href="http://watchtower.observer.org

” target=”_blank”>http://watchtower.observer.org[/QUOTE%5D

For more info on this mutli billion dollar industry go to:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/12083/1.ashx

Now where's your money David? Well, it isn't yours I guess. Your just a slave not even getting paid to do their bidding. Or their bidding in what they claim they are intending on doing. I wonder how much that current PRESIDENT makes? Hmmmm, the biggest paying job in America are CEO's/Presidents of corperations/industries. Whether they claim to be religious or not. The sad thing is…they claim this under non-profit! You are a slave! So, Pharoah lives in Brooklyn. Interesting!

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We discuss the Bible with them. We're not interested in personal opinions or traditions or Oprah's new book, or what Dr. Phil has to say.

Are you freaking kidding me kid? Greek texts versus Oprah and Dr. Phil. You are grasping at straws as you choke on the gnats!

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I've had discusions on here with people accusing us of repeatedly going back. Now, you accuse us of not going back.

Yeah, you go back to people who are not wise to your schemes. You go to my house and you will find one who is in the know. No David…they NEVER come back to MY house. They kept going to my sister-n-law's house and persistently bugging her while she was trying to watch her kids. So finally she called and asked how to get them to stop because she didn't know enough about their doctrine. I gave her a few things that will get them a point of interest, once they figured out she knew to much they NEVER came back. So, keep bugging naive people. But David…your numbers have decreased since the www has come about. Wow, information and knowledge are way more powerful than you put stock in. Back in the horse and buggy days no one had the means of spreading how false your industry was. Now, it is open season!

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If you read it again, you'll see that he did't actually say those words. He did point to the books behind him and explain that he's studied and read all those books, and Implied what I stated.

Did I? Let's recap for the public
viewing of those who are also looking on the net for the truth of the witnesses.

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He brought me to his room, his library and showed me the shelves behind him as he spoke to me and without saying it directly, pointed back to them and said: 'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is Jehovah.

Wow David! I wonder how later on in life you will take what I said and devour it to fit your fancy! Man I can only imagine. I think first what you will do is cut/paste all that I said and maybe show it to a perspective prosylite candidate making him twice as fit for Gehenna than you. You will say, “now look what this Bible College student said…” And they will go “wow, he sure was demeaning, rude, and inconsiderate. He was indeed a Pharisee!” Because you know what? If you did cut and paste my stuff without taking them in full context with what I said (like you do your Bible), you could make me sound downright nasty, and I could likewise. But that is immature and unfair…scholastically without merit.

Let's see what you ACTUALLY said:

[/QUOTE]'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is Jehovah

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You make this man sound full of pride. Good job! You took a serious scholar and put him on your level, knowing full well he did not imply such. But to be fair you did say:

he spoke to me and without saying it directly

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That is a smart statement to defend what you said, though very poorly. Afterall, how many people on this site are really going to see “without saying it directly”? I read everything you have to say multiple times just to be fair and not try to misquote you and I honesly did not see that little clause in their. Yet you are still saying he said,

'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is Jehovah

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I doubt sincerly you gave him the opportunity to show you from the Greek his position which you admitted he had Greek texts. Instead what you wanted was for him to show you in your NWT that is in English. He wanted to show you in the original tongue how the sentence structure is truly formatted. I am sure when he said he could prove Jesus is Jehovah, or actually you said he said it and just wanted you to except it (now I think you are lying). He most likely attempted to show you Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah is incorrect but none of you are willing to accept it is Yahweh). But when your older JW saw where it was going he decided that you shouldn't stick around and you two left without hearing him out.

Debra, the witnesses will disagree. They believe that if you adhere to their literature especially their “Knowledge that leads to everlasint life” you will be saved…with a clause of “maybe”.

That book was replaced a year ago with a newer book. that book did focus on knowledge. This next book, focuses more on a relationship with God.

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Yeah, I know that book was replaced. I have all four…1984,1995,1997,2005. By your own admission, your texts get out of date. Did I misquote you? Oh, you implied it. Why keep making new ones? Do you change with the times? Sounds like a true American, postmodern, politically correct, hypocritical, organization who has no absolutes. After all, if one year doesn't bring Christ let's change it! You did state however:

that book did focus on knowledge. This next book, focuses more on a relationship with God.

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I disagree. I've compared the two and they are basically the same book. Just a side note while I am thinking about it: In the illustrations of your “paradise” or in any of your Watchtower literature there are pictures of a white man with a black wife with a mexican kid (boy) and oriental kid (girl). I am no where near racist. I am caucasian and grew up in a “minority” part of Dallas (which is most of Dallas. We are predominately black and Hispanic) and only had two white friends until the sixth grade when we moved to another surburb because my mom moved jobs. I just find it hillarous that your organization is so afraid of offending people they make sure EVERY color and race (not creed of course) are in almost every picture. Way to stay politically correct. But you don't get into politics. How does that work? My problem with this dialouge with you is I am a dog chasing it's tail. You make a false accusation without quote to stand on and then brush past it you side track me on another topic. So, I am not moving from it until you can answer me. I am not going to give you a ONE TOPIC AT A TIME. You are presenting a double standard. You will answer some questions that are different topics, yet when I present something to you, that you cannot answer you disregard and ignore it with…I don't have enough time. Neither do I. Yet, here I am doing it. Maybe I think this site is more benefical to those seeking than you do. But then again, I guess it isn't a door to a house you can knock on. It is just people all over the world who can read this. So I am going to state these things again until you answer me. If you choose not to as I said before, your silence speaks volumes and people on this sight will see right through you and your cult you represent. Not a cult? CULT: Intensive indoctrination techniques include: 1) Subjection to stress and fatigue 2) Social disruption, isolation and pressure 3) Self criticism and humiliation 4) Fear, anxiety and paranoia 5) Control of information 6) Escalating commitment These ar experienced by all my friends who are former witnesses. Did they admit it at the time they represented the cult? No. They were trying to convince me. But now they admit their folly and are so at peace with God and not a group of people telling them what they can do, what they cannot, where they can go, where they cannot, what music they can listen to, what they cannot, what people they associate with, those they cannot, what movies they can see, what they cannot…etc,etc. They now determine such things by the Holy Spirit of God….not flesh and blood. Cursed is the man who depends on flesh…Jeremiah 17.

David I can't make heads or tails from you. Where did
I imply that you had to be a scholar to be a believer? Where? Search the WHOLE thread and quote me once where I did. You misquoted me by posting what I said to Debra, “don't let me mislead you…” But what did I actually say? That is the problem I find time and again with the Watchtower and it's followers. You people are really good nay, experts at misquoting people to fit your fancy. Her is what I said to Debra…

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Don't let me mislead you, I am not saying one has to go to Bible College or Seminary to follow God correctly. But if you plan on teaching people, then you better have some experience and learning to back up what you say.

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Casey:
“Anyway, I can see this has become a sort of antogonistic thread. Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? I do not know so I am reluctant to say.”–page 17, oct 3

These words above, may as well be applied to yourself.

Actually No…once again David. What I said was this:

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It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense

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Did you admit you were wrong? When you have said something and I reazlied I was incorrect I have admitted it. But you haven't and most likely will not; that his how the Watchtower trains its adherents.

Debra, do you think the early Christians went “to college to learn the basics of how to teach and understand scripture?” Or did they perhaps study in the religious schools of higher learning….Was it this teaching that helped Paul? Did he recommend the other disciples go learn from Greek philosophy, or rabbinic schools of higher learning?

The ones you say from the beginning such as the unlearned apolostles (I agree with you here) knew Greek. Actually some of them wrote the Scriptures. They would not need to learn the Biblical languages David. They spoke, wrote and interacted in daily life with the languages. If you and I wrote the Bible and were the apostles (neither you nor I are scholars or have degrees…well I am actually working on my B.A. in Biblical Studies…hee hee hee) we would have written the Scriptures in English. And we would have likewise known Hebrew since the Olt Testament we would have known deeply. However they may not have been the case since the normally used OT was the Greek Septuagint. But my point is you and I would not have had to go to “schools of higher learning” to learn English or theology. Our WHOLE LIVES would have been Greek and theology. We are from America David. Unless we were born into a strongly devout 24-7 Christian family, we would have to learn Scripture and theology. It seems the term “theology” is taken on this site as a negative term. The term THEOLOGY is the study of God. Are we not all on here studying God? Do we not all on here have a passion to know Him? English terms are not bad if they define the object of our intent. So when I mention studying theology I am simply implying the study of God. David your theology is based in your kingdom hall so you are not far removed from any “schools” sir. I am not being mean….just realize that the study of theology is just the study we all on here are trying to attempt as best we can in our finite punny little human brains that we only use 10% at best.

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You had nothing to say. It seems my rebuttal was correct in it's analysis of your accusations without premise. If I am wrong, prove me and I will retract.

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We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School…hmm. I would say Jehovah's Witnesses the world over as a group are far better equiped to “teach and understand Scripture” than any other group on the planet.
We have an entire meeting each week devoted to making ourselves better at this…We don't need to be taught by Catholics or Lutherins, or whatever or go their schools to know how to do this.

Well now David it seems you are contradicting yourself. You base Christian colleges and seminary's as negative and Pharisee and Saducee and Scribe's of Jesus' day professors who teach at these schools.
Yet you then state: “We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School” Why do you need that school David? To grow and learn the ways of God. What is different about me going to a theological-semarian school that teaches what I believe and the school you go to?

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So you admit you go to school to learn about God? I don't hear an apology for hypocritical comments. Did my post on Dr. Ryrie have any weight? Do you agree? Is Dr. Ryrie a Pharisee? Be careful there. Slander is a serious offense.

Yes David, the Watchtower owes its roots to Martin Luther. The very man who devoutly held the Trinity, predestination and the community of ALL believers partaking the Lord's Supper. You group came from the Dispensational craze of the 1800's. Most denominations were on alert for the second coming. The Great Disappointment of the 7th Day Adventists so called for this reason: their leader (Mr. William Miller (1782-1849) did the math (as your Watchtower is so fond of) and realized that Christ was in no doubt coming back soon:

” As a result, many thousands (called Millerites) accepted his idea that Jesus would return in the year covering 1843-1844. He had arrived at this date based upon a study of Daniel 8:14 which says, “And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.” He interpreted the 2300 evenings and mornings to be years and counted forward from 457 BC when the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem was given (Dan. 9:24-25).1 When his initial predictions failed, he adjusted his findings to conclude that Jesus would return on March 21, 1844 and then later on October 22, 1844. After these too failed, Miller quit promoting his ideas on Jesus' return and the “Millerites” broke up.”

Charles Russel came about from that. And like his leader before him, he too did some math and said the apocolypse would come about in 1914…1914 came and went. So to justify themselves, the witnesses said Christ did come back but it was invisible so no one saw it. It is kind of funny to me. “Well, hmmmmm I was wrong. How can I be right. I know, He did come back – we just didn't see it!” And thereafter the witnesses have made one miscalculation after another, or as they say prophecies:

The chronology stated that Jesus had invisibly returned to earth in 1874 to set up his kingdom, and that in 1914, at the end of the “Gentile Times”, Jesus would come to judge the earth and annihilate the wicked.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1874, the Watchtower Society started transferring all of the doctrines about 1874 to 1914. They explained that Christ's kingdom had been set up invisibly in 1914, and that although secular governments were still in place, their rule was no longer valid. Based on the Society's writings, Jehovah's Witnesses looked forward to momentous events in the year 1918.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1918, the Watchtower Society looked forward to momentous events in 1925.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1925, the Watchtower Society lost three quarters of its members.

Charles Taze Russell h
ad been held to be the “Faithful and Wise Servant” of Matthew 24:45-47, but by 1928 the Society applied that to its leaders. They taught that the scripture was a prophecy, and that in 1918 they had been chosen by Jesus “over all that he hath”. Since they believed Jesus was ruling the world invisibly, they claimed for themselves a position as God's channel of communication with mankind.

The Society checked its predictions and explained that all of the prophecies in Matthew 24 and 25 would take place within a “single generation” (Matthew 24:34), so the time of “the end of the world” (Matthew 24:3) could be delayed as long as 30 or 40 years. In 1929, the Society built a mansion (“Beth Sarim”) to house the resurrected prophets, who were expected to arrive soon. The new definition of “generation” promised momentous events during the 1940's.

When nothing supernatural had happened by 1945, the Society extended the meaning of “generation” to 80 years (the maximum lifespan of a typical man, as explained in Psalms 90:10). “Beth Sarim” was eventually sold.

Although 1914 plus 80 equals 1994, in 1966 the Watchtower Society decided that the year 1975 was “significant”, because they had calculated that it marked the end of six thousand years since the creation of Adam and Eve. Watchtower publications strongly hinted that “the end” would come in 1975.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1975, the Watchtower Society lost many members. It explained that the time between Adam's creation and Eve's creation was not known, so the 1975 date was only speculative.

In 1980, the Society suggested that the Witnesses and the publishing staff had been overly enthusiastic about the “possibility” of Armageddon in 1975. This failed to lure back thousands who had left, but regular door-to-door preaching restored the rapid growth the Witnesses had enjoyed since the “significance” of 1975 had been announced.

When the year 1994 arrived (1914 plus 80 years), nothing supernatural happened. The Society had not ascribed any special significance [1] to 1994, but the “generation” issue was becoming awkward. The ranks of the Society's special members (the 144,000 who were “anointed”, based on an interpretation of Revelation) were dying out. The claim that Jesus had appointed the Watchtower Society special status in 1918 was becoming hard to defend.

In 1995, the Watchtower Society decided that “generation” did not mean a physical generation (i.e. 80 years) but meant “age”, as in “era”. This extended the “end times” indefinitely, although when the last of the 144,000 special members die out, the Society will have to be run by regular members.

A close inspection of Matthew 24:34 in context makes the “age” interpretation hard to understand, since Jesus speaks of the generation “passing away” (which sounds like a physical event). The Watchtower Society states that it alone understands that “generation” means “age” because it has special status, which was granted to it in 1918.

The Watchtower magazine, published by the Society, has said the end is “soon”, in every issue since it was first printed … in 1879.

——————————————————————————–

Footnotes
[1] “No Special Significance”

The Society did not consider 1994 “special”, because the end was supposed to occur within the time of a typical human lifespan (as “generation” was then interpreted), not at the end of a generation. Here are some quotations from Watchtower literature that illustrate their position prior to November 1995:
Watchtower 1968/12/01 p. 715:
… did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left. – Luke 21:24, 32-36.
Watchtower 1967/12/15 p. 751:
… the expression “this generation” was used by Jesus to mark a very limited period of time, the life-span of members of a generation of people living during the time that certain epoch-making events occurred. According to Psalm 90:10, that life-span could be of seventy years or even of eighty years. Into this comparatively short period of time must be crowded all the things that Jesus prophesied in answer to the request for a “sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion.” (Mark 13:4)
Awake! masthead from March 1988 until November 1995:
Most importantly, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away. “

I challenge you. Study just where your roots are. However, if you dare you may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. You have yet to comment on my many statements of being disfellowshipped. I sense your silence speaks volumes. If you though, are as passionate about the study and knowledge of God….search. Your eternal destiny cannot be determined by the fear of man – or your judges, elders. Think just a minute David – here me out. Why do witnesses disfellowship members just for investigating the claims of other Churches that are Chritian? What harm is there in it truly? If however they fear you could find out that they are false prophets, to keep from spreading your “heresies” to fellow witnesses, you will be removed. Look on the net David. There are thousands of stories of witnesses who were disfelloshipped for questioning their leaders. Not trying to divide but simply to wonder. It makes no since to me David – on a logical level it seems that the witnesses have some skeletons in their closet; definitley something to hide.

I was not surprised you answered this. I am not budging on it though. I have made an accusation here against the origins of the kingdom with substantial evidence. What will you do as a defense for the very founder of the group you let rule your life?

I now turn it over to you and let the jury decide.

[Casey S Smith 29]

SOMETHING HAPPEND TO THE FORMAT?

Now where's your money David? Well, it isn't yours I guess. Your just a slave not even getting paid to do their bidding. Or their bidding in what they claim they are intending on doing. I wonder how much that current PRESIDENT makes? Hmmmm, the biggest paying job in America are CEO's/Presidents of corperations/industries. Whether they claim to be religious or not. The sad thing is…they claim this under non-profit! You are a slave! So, Pharoah lives in Brooklyn. Interesting!

Quote
We discuss the Bible with them. We're not interested in personal opinions or traditions or Oprah's new book, or what Dr. Phil has to say.

Are you freaking kidding me kid? Greek texts versus Oprah and Dr. Phil. You are grasping at straws as you choke on the gnats!

Quote
I've had discusions on here with people accusing us of repeatedly going back. Now, you accuse us of not going back.

Yeah, you go back to people who are not wise to your schemes. You go to my house and you will find one who is in the know. No David…they NEVER come back to MY house. They kept going to my sister-n-law's house and persistently bugging her while she was trying to watch her kids. So finally she called and asked how to get them to stop because she didn't know enough about their doctrine. I gave her a few things that will get them a point of interest, once they figured out she knew to much they NEVER came back. So, keep bugging naive people. But David…your numbers have decreased since the www has come about. Wow, information and knowledge are way more powerful than you put stock in. Back in the horse and buggy days no one had the means of spreading how false your industry was. Now, it is open season!

Quote
If you read it again, you'll see that he did't actually say those words. He did point to the books behind him and explain that he's studied and read all those books, and Implied what I stated.

Did I? Let's recap for the public viewing of those who are also looking on the net for the truth of the witnesses.

Quote
He brought me to his room, his library and showed me the shelves behind him as he spoke to me and without saying it directly, pointed back to them and said:
'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is Jehovah.

Wow David! I wonder how later on in life you will take what I said and devour it to fit your fancy! Man I can only imagine. I think first what you will do is cut/paste all that I said and maybe show it to a perspective prosylite candidate making him twice as fit for Gehenna than you. You will say, “now look what this Bible College student said…” And they will go “wow, he sure was demeaning, rude, and inconsiderate. He was indeed a Pharisee!” Because you know what? If you did cut and paste my stuff without taking them in full context with what I said (like you do your Bible), you could make me sound downright nasty, and I could likewise. But that is immature and unfair…scholastically without merit.

Let's see what you ACTUALLY said:

[/QUOTE]'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is JehovahQuote

You make this man sound full of pride. Good job! You took a serious scholar and put him on your level, knowing full well he did not imply such. But to be fair you did say:

he spoke to me and without saying it directlyQuote

That is a smart statement to defend what you said, though very poorly. Afterall, how many people on this site are really going to see “without saying it directly”? I read everything you have to say multiple times just to be fair and not try to misquote you and I honesly did not see that little clause in their. Yet you are still saying he said,

'I'm smarter then you. I've read ALL these books. So, I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. I've been to schools of higher learning. So just accept what I say without me explaining it from the Bible: Jesus is JehovahQuote

I doubt sincerly you gave him the opportunity to show you from the Greek his position which you admitted he had Greek texts. Instead what you wanted was for him to show you in your NWT that is in English. He wanted to show you in the original tongue how the sentence structure is truly formatted. I am sure when he said he could prove Jesus is Jehovah, or actually you said he said it and just wanted you to except it (now I think you are lying). He most likely attempted to show you Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah is incorrect but none of you are willing to accept it is Yahweh). But when your older JW saw where it was going he decided that you shouldn't stick around and you two left without hearing him out.

Debra, the witnesses will disagree. They believe that if you adhere to their literature especially their “Knowledge that leads to everlasint life” you will be saved…with a clause of “maybe”.

That book was replaced a year ago with a newer book. that book did focus on knowledge. This next book, focuses more on a relationship with God.
Quote

Yeah, I know that book was replaced. I have all four…1984,1995,1997,2005. By your own admission, your texts get out of date. Did I misquote you? Oh, you implied it. Why keep making new ones? Do you change with the times? Sounds like a true American, postmodern, politically correct, hypocritical, organization who has no absolutes. After all, if one year doesn't bring Christ let's change it!

You did state however:

that book did focus on knowledge. This next book, focuses more on a relationship with God.Quote

I disagree. I've compared the two and they are basically the same book. Just a side note while I am thinking about it: In the illustrations of your “paradise” or in any of your Watchtower literature there are pictures of a white man with a black wife with a mexican kid (boy) and oriental kid (girl). I am no where near racist. I am caucasian and grew up in a “minority” part of Dallas (which is most of Dallas. We are predominately black and Hispanic) and only had two white friends until the sixth grade when we moved to another surburb because my mom moved jobs. I just find it hillarous that your organization is so afraid of offending people they make sure EVERY color and race (not creed of course) are in almost every picture. Way to stay politically correct. But you don't get into politics. How does that work?

My problem with this dialouge with you is I am a dog chasing it's tail. You make a false accusation without quote to stand on and then brush past it you side track me on another topic. So, I am not moving from it until you can answer me. I am not going to give you a ONE TOPIC AT A TIME. You are presenting a double standard. You will answer some questions that are different topics, yet when I present something to you, that you cannot answer you disregard and ignore it with…I don't have enough time. Neither do I. Yet, here I am doing it. Maybe I think this site is more benefical to those seeking than you do. But then again, I guess it isn't a door to a house you can knock on. It is just people all over the world who can read this.

So I am going to state these things again until you answer me. If you choose not to as I said before, your silence speaks volumes and people on this sight will see right through you and your cult you represent. Not a
cult?

CULT:
Intensive indoctrination techniques include:
1) Subjection to stress and fatigue
2) Social disruption, isolation and pressure
3) Self criticism and humiliation
4) Fear, anxiety and paranoia
5) Control of information
6) Escalating commitment

These ar experienced by all my friends who are former witnesses. Did they admit it at the time they represented the cult? No. They were trying to convince me. But now they admit their folly and are so at peace with God and not a group of people telling them what they can do, what they cannot, where they can go, where they cannot, what music they can listen to, what they cannot, what people they associate with, those they cannot, what movies they can see, what they cannot…etc,etc. They now determine such things by the Holy Spirit of God….not flesh and blood. Cursed is the man who depends on flesh…Jeremiah 17.

David I can't make heads or tails from you. Where did I imply that you had to be a scholar to be a believer? Where? Search the WHOLE thread and quote me once where I did. You misquoted me by posting what I said to Debra, “don't let me mislead you…” But what did I actually say? That is the problem I find time and again with the Watchtower and it's followers. You people are really good nay, experts at misquoting people to fit your fancy. Her is what I said to Debra…

Quote
Don't let me mislead you, I am not saying one has to go to Bible College or Seminary to follow God correctly. But if you plan on teaching people, then you better have some experience and learning to back up what you say.

Quote
Casey:
“Anyway, I can see this has become a sort of antogonistic thread. Nick, I don't think you can make stabs at JW's without any grounds. It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense and run with it, maybe in the hopes that you will pesuade someone? I do not know so I am reluctant to say.”–page 17, oct 3

These words above, may as well be applied to yourself.

Actually No…once again David. What I said was this:

Quote
It seems sir that you make a poke at them without any defense
Quote

Did you admit you were wrong? When you have said something and I reazlied I was incorrect I have admitted it. But you haven't and most likely will not; that his how the Watchtower trains its adherents.

Debra, do you think the early Christians went “to college to learn the basics of how to teach and understand scripture?” Or did they perhaps study in the religious schools of higher learning….Was it this teaching that helped Paul? Did he recommend the other disciples go learn from Greek philosophy, or rabbinic schools of higher learning?

The ones you say from the beginning such as the unlearned apolostles (I agree with you here) knew Greek. Actually some of them wrote the Scriptures. They would not need to learn the Biblical languages David. They spoke, wrote and interacted in daily life with the languages. If you and I wrote the Bible and were the apostles (neither you nor I are scholars or have degrees…well I am actually working on my B.A. in Biblical Studies…hee hee hee) we would have written the Scriptures in English. And we would have likewise known Hebrew since the Olt Testament we would have known deeply. However they may not have been the case since the normally used OT was the Greek Septuagint. But my point is you and I would not have had to go to “schools of higher learning” to learn English or theology. Our WHOLE LIVES would have been Greek and theology. We are from America David. Unless we were born into a strongly devout 24-7 Christian family, we would have to learn Scripture and theology. It seems the term “theology” is taken on this site as a negative term. The term THEOLOGY is the study of God. Are we not all on here studying God? Do we not all on here have a passion to know Him? English terms are not bad if they define the object of our intent. So when I mention studying theology I am simply implying the study of God. David your theology is based in your kingdom hall so you are not far removed from any “schools” sir. I am not being mean….just realize that the study of theology is just the study we all on here are trying to attempt as best we can in our finite punny little human brains that we only use 10% at best.
Quote

You had nothing to say. It seems my rebuttal was correct in it's analysis of your accusations without premise. If I am wrong, prove me and I will retract.

Quote
We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School…hmm. I would say Jehovah's Witnesses the world over as a group are far better equiped to “teach and understand Scripture” than any other group on the planet.
We have an entire meeting each week devoted to making ourselves better at this…We don't need to be taught by Catholics or Lutherins, or whatever or go their schools to know how to do this.

Well now David it seems you are contradicting yourself. You base Christian colleges and seminary's as negative and Pharisee and Saducee and Scribe's of Jesus' day professors who teach at these schools.
Yet you then state: “We do have MTS, Ministerial Training School, as well as the Theocratic Ministry School” Why do you need that school David? To grow and learn the ways of God. What is different about me going to a theological-semarian school that teaches what I believe and the school you go to?Quote

So you admit you go to school to learn about God? I don't hear an apology for hypocritical comments.

Did my post on Dr. Ryrie have any weight? Do you agree? Is Dr. Ryrie a Pharisee? Be careful there. Slander is a serious offense.

Yes David, the Watchtower owes its roots to Martin Luther. The very man who devoutly held the Trinity, predestination and the community of ALL believers partaking the Lord's Supper. You group came from the Dispensational craze of the 1800's. Most denominations were on alert for the second coming. The Great Disappointment of the 7th Day Adventists so called for this reason: their leader (Mr. William Miller (1782-1849) did the math (as your Watchtower is so fond of) and realized that Christ was in no doubt coming back soon:

” As a result, many thousands (called Millerites) accepted his idea that Jesus would return in the year covering 1843-1844. He had arrived at this date based upon a study of Daniel 8:14 which says, “And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.” He interpreted the 2300 evenings and mornings to be years and counted forward from 457 BC when the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem was given (Dan. 9:24-25).1 When his initial predictions failed, he adjusted his findings to conclude that Jesus would return on March 21, 1844 and then later on October 22, 1844. After these too failed, Miller quit promoting his ideas on Jesus' return and the “Millerites” broke up.”

Charles Russel came about from that. And like his leader before him, he too did some math and said the apocolypse would come about in 1914…1914 came and went. So to justify themselves, the witnesses said Christ did come back but it was invisible so no one saw it. It is kind of funny to me. “Well, hmmmmm I was wrong. How can I be right. I know, He did come back – we just didn't see it!” And thereafter the witnesses have made one miscalculation after another, or as they say prophecies:

The chronology stated that Jesus had invisibly returned to earth in 1874 to set up his kingdom, and that in 1914, at the end of the “Gentile Times”, Jesus would come to judge the earth and annihilate the wicked.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1874, the Watchtower Society started transferring all of the doctrines about 1874 to 1914. They explained that Christ's kingdom had been set up invisibly in 1914, and that although secular governments were still in place, the
ir rule was no longer valid. Based on the Society's writings, Jehovah's Witnesses looked forward to momentous events in the year 1918.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1918, the Watchtower Society looked forward to momentous events in 1925.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1925, the Watchtower Society lost three quarters of its members.

Charles Taze Russell had been held to be the “Faithful and Wise Servant” of Matthew 24:45-47, but by 1928 the Society applied that to its leaders. They taught that the scripture was a prophecy, and that in 1918 they had been chosen by Jesus “over all that he hath”. Since they believed Jesus was ruling the world invisibly, they claimed for themselves a position as God's channel of communication with mankind.

The Society checked its predictions and explained that all of the prophecies in Matthew 24 and 25 would take place within a “single generation” (Matthew 24:34), so the time of “the end of the world” (Matthew 24:3) could be delayed as long as 30 or 40 years. In 1929, the Society built a mansion (“Beth Sarim”) to house the resurrected prophets, who were expected to arrive soon. The new definition of “generation” promised momentous events during the 1940's.

When nothing supernatural had happened by 1945, the Society extended the meaning of “generation” to 80 years (the maximum lifespan of a typical man, as explained in Psalms 90:10). “Beth Sarim” was eventually sold.

Although 1914 plus 80 equals 1994, in 1966 the Watchtower Society decided that the year 1975 was “significant”, because they had calculated that it marked the end of six thousand years since the creation of Adam and Eve. Watchtower publications strongly hinted that “the end” would come in 1975.

When nothing supernatural happened in 1975, the Watchtower Society lost many members. It explained that the time between Adam's creation and Eve's creation was not known, so the 1975 date was only speculative.

In 1980, the Society suggested that the Witnesses and the publishing staff had been overly enthusiastic about the “possibility” of Armageddon in 1975. This failed to lure back thousands who had left, but regular door-to-door preaching restored the rapid growth the Witnesses had enjoyed since the “significance” of 1975 had been announced.

When the year 1994 arrived (1914 plus 80 years), nothing supernatural happened. The Society had not ascribed any special significance [1] to 1994, but the “generation” issue was becoming awkward. The ranks of the Society's special members (the 144,000 who were “anointed”, based on an interpretation of Revelation) were dying out. The claim that Jesus had appointed the Watchtower Society special status in 1918 was becoming hard to defend.

In 1995, the Watchtower Society decided that “generation” did not mean a physical generation (i.e. 80 years) but meant “age”, as in “era”. This extended the “end times” indefinitely, although when the last of the 144,000 special members die out, the Society will have to be run by regular members.

A close inspection of Matthew 24:34 in context makes the “age” interpretation hard to understand, since Jesus speaks of the generation “passing away” (which sounds like a physical event). The Watchtower Society states that it alone understands that “generation” means “age” because it has special status, which was granted to it in 1918.

The Watchtower magazine, published by the Society, has said the end is “soon”, in every issue since it was first printed … in 1879.

——————————————————————————–

Footnotes
[1] “No Special Significance”

The Society did not consider 1994 “special”, because the end was supposed to occur within the time of a typical human lifespan (as “generation” was then interpreted), not at the end of a generation. Here are some quotations from Watchtower literature that illustrate their position prior to November 1995:
Watchtower 1968/12/01 p. 715:
… did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left. – Luke 21:24, 32-36.
Watchtower 1967/12/15 p. 751:
… the expression “this generation” was used by Jesus to mark a very limited period of time, the life-span of members of a generation of people living during the time that certain epoch-making events occurred. According to Psalm 90:10, that life-span could be of seventy years or even of eighty years. Into this comparatively short period of time must be crowded all the things that Jesus prophesied in answer to the request for a “sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion.” (Mark 13:4)
Awake! masthead from March 1988 until November 1995:
Most importantly, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away. “

I challenge you. Study just where your roots are. However, if you dare you may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. You have yet to comment on my many statements of being disfellowshipped. I sense your silence speaks volumes. If you though, are as passionate about the study and knowledge of God….search. Your eternal destiny cannot be determined by the fear of man – or your judges, elders. Think just a minute David – here me out. Why do witnesses disfellowship members just for investigating the claims of other Churches that are Chritian? What harm is there in it truly? If however they fear you could find out that they are false prophets, to keep from spreading your “heresies” to fellow witnesses, you will be removed. Look on the net David. There are thousands of stories of witnesses who were disfelloshipped for questioning their leaders. Not trying to divide but simply to wonder. It makes no since to me David – on a logical level it seems that the witnesses have some skeletons in their closet; definitley something to hide.

I was not surprised you answered this. I am not budging on it though. I have made an accusation here against the origins of the kingdom with substantial evidence. What will you do as a defense for the very founder of the group you let rule your life?

I now turn it over to you and let the jury decide.

[Debra]

Quote (david @ Oct. 18 2006,11:38)

Quote Hi David I havn't been following this thread, but I do have a question. Why don't Jehovah”s Witness partake of the Bread and Wine when it is passed around? I have been to your church because I was invited by 2 women who came to my door and we shared for a couple of hours, our beliefs. They didn't mention to me before I went that I am to pass the cup and bread on to the next person, so I was shocked and a little annoyed at the time. The reason I was given when I asked was,”If your not one of the 144000, you don't drink the wine or eat the bread” This answer did not help me to understand at all. Maybe you could explain this to me –Debra Hi Debra. First, I’m sorry they didn’t explain to you what would be happening. It most unusual for them not to. They should have. And they also should have went into a little more detail as to why only those who make up the heavenly government, (the kingdom) partake of the bread and wine. Debra, you also asked why they consider themselves “set apart from everyone else.” LUKE 8:10 “[Jesus] said [to his disciples]: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.” So it seems that some people would understand this heavenly government, this kingdom of God and most….wouldn’t. The Witnesses that came to you, were really there to talk to you about this kingdom or point to it as the only hope for mankind. MATTHEW 24:14 “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” Jehovah’s Witnesses are set apart, as you say in that they are really the only ones doing this in all the nations. To your question. “Whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and thus let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment against himself if he does not discern the body.” (1Co 11:27-29) Unclean, unscriptural, or hypocritical practices would disqualify one from eating. If he should eat in that condition, he would be eating and drinking judgment against himself. He would be failing to appreciate Christ’s sacrifice, its purpose, and its meaning. He would be showing disrespect and contempt for it. (Compare Heb 10:28-31.) The scripture above is not the answer to your question, but does show the importance of not partaking unworthily. Jesus had gathered his 12 apostles, saying to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer.” (Lu 22:15) But John’s eyewitness account indicates that Jesus dismissed the traitorous Judas before instituting the Memorial meal. During the Passover, Jesus, knowing that Judas was his betrayer, dipped a morsel of the Passover meal and handed it to Judas, instructing him to leave. (Joh 13:21-30) Mark’s account also intimates this order of events. (Mr 14:12-25) During the Lord’s Evening Meal that followed, Jesus passed the bread and the wine to the 11 remaining apostles, telling them to eat and drink. (Lu 22:19, 20) Afterward he spoke to them as “the ones that have stuck with me in my trials,” a further indication that Judas had been dismissed.—Lu 22:28. That really doesn’t have anything to do with your question. Just a beef I have with what some people think. Anyway, on with your question: LUKE 22:19,28,29 “Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” . . .“YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” Who partook when Jesus instituted the Lord’s Evening Meal shortly before he died? Eleven faithful followers to whom Jesus said: “I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” (Luke 22:29) They were all persons who were being invited to share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom. (John 14:2, 3) All who partake of the bread and wine today should also be persons whom Christ brings into that ‘covenant for a kingdom.’ How many are there that partake? Jesus said that only a “little flock” would receive the heavenly Kingdom as their reward. (Luke 12:32) LUKE 12:32 ““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.” The full number would be 144,000. (Rev. 14:1-3) That group began to be selected in 33 C.E. Reasonably, there would be only a small number partaking now. The Lord Jesus Christ revealed that, at his presence, there would be persons who would do good to his spiritual brothers, visiting them in time of need and giving them assistance. (Mt 25:31-46) Would these, who might attend the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, qualify as partakers of the emblems? The Scriptures say that God will provide, through his holy spirit, evidence and assurance to those qualified to partake of the emblems as “heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ,” that they are God’s sons. The apostle Paul writes: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.” He goes on to explain that there are others who benefit from God’s arrangement for these sons: “For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.” (Ro 8:14-21) Since the joint heirs with Christ are to ‘rule as kings and priests over the earth,’ the Kingdom will benefit those living under it. (Re 5:10; 20:4, 6; 21:3, 4) Those benefiting would naturally be interested in the Kingdom and its development. Such persons therefore would attend and observe the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, but not being joint heirs with Christ and spiritual sons of God, they would not partake of the emblems as joint participants in the death of Christ, with hope of resurrection to a heavenly life with him.—Ro 6:3-5. That's essentially the answer. But what I would like to add, is how we look at the kingdom of God and what it is, as that's central to our understanding. I know I've already put this down somewhere on here, but I can't find it: WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM? GOD’S KINGDOM–A GOVERNMENT ISAIAH 9:6, 7, RS: “To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; “dominion,” JB, NE; “princely rule,” NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.” The word rendered “kingdom” in the Christian Greek Scriptures is ba·si·leía, meaning “a kingdom, realm, the region or country governed by a king; kingly power, authority, dominion, reign; royal dignity, the title and honour of king.” (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, 1908, p. 67) GOD’S KINGDOM CRUSHES OTHER KINGDOMS AND BRINGS TO NOTHING ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS. DANIEL 2:44 ““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;” 1 CORINTHIANS 15:24 “Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.” 1 CORINTHIANS 2:6 “Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.” PSALMS 2:8, 9: “Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.” (God’s kingdom will accomplish so much. But one thing that I mention here, is that it will remove imperfect earthly human governments which have not solved mankind’s problems. As well, unlike human governments, this kingdom “cannot be shaken.”–Heb 12:28) GOD’S KINGDOM–IS IT IN THE HEARTS OF THE PHARISEES? Many believe that Jesus said God’s kingdom was something inside of people’s hearts. According to one rendition of Jesus’ words to wicked Pharisees, he said: “The kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21, NIV, KJV) Did Jesus mean that the Kingdom was in the wicked hearts of those corrupt men, the very ones he condemned to Gehenna? (Mat 23:33) No. A more accurate translation of the original Greek reads: “The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation) Jesus, who was in their midst, thus referred to himself as the future King. In this regard The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states: “Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ . . . understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ . . . is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—vs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole N[ew] T[estament] presentation of the idea.” A footnote to Luke 17:21 in the New International Version shows that Jesus’ words could be rendered: “The kingdom of God is among you.” Other Bible translations read: “The kingdom of God is among you” or “is in the midst of you.” (The New English Bible; The Jerusalem Bible; Revised Standard Version) Jesus did not mean that the Kingdom was in the hearts of the proud Pharisees whom he was addressing. Rather, as the long-awaited Messiah and King-Designate, Jesus was in their very midst. Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler and subjects. It’s not surprising that relatively few understand God’s kingdom. MATTHEW 13:11 “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.” A KINGDOM HAS RULERS JESUS IS ONE OF THESE RULERS DANIEL 7:13, 14: “With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” REVELATION 11:15 “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”” JESUS HAS CO-RULERS, JOINT HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM DANIEL 7:18 “But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’” DANIEL 7:22 “until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” DANIEL 7:27 ““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’” REVELATION 1:6 “and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.” REVELATION 5:9,10: “You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (At Revelation 14:1-3 these “bought from the earth” to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.) ROMANS 8:17 “If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (See Heb 1:2) JAMES 2:5 “Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?” REVELATION 3:21 “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” REVELATION 20:4 “And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” REVELATION 22:3-5 “And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and HIS SLAVES will render him sacred service; and THEY will see his face, and his name will be on THEIR foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and THEY have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon THEM, and they will RULE AS KINGS forever and ever.” JESUS IS THE RULER OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH REVELATION 1:5 “and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”“ REVELATION 19:16 “And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” REVELATION 21:24 “And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.” PSALM 89:27 “Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.” JESUS’ CO-RULERS ARE KINGS, JUDGES, PRIESTS AND MAKE UP GOD’S KINGDOM, THE GOVERNMENT REVELATION 20:4-5 “And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” REVELATION 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27) 1 CORINTHIANS 4:8 “YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.” 1 CORINTHIANS 6:2: “Do you not k now that the holy ones will judge the world?” (Compare Rev 20:4) 2 TIMOTHY 2:12 “if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;” REVELATION 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.” Really, looking only at this scripture, that word could be translated either way. But based on the rest of the Bible, it seems to me the word “over” is a better translation.) LUKE 22:28-30 ““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.” Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4. A SELECT BODY OF RULERS, A LITTLE FLOCK OF 144,000 MAKES UP THE KINGDOM, RULING WITH CHRIST It was not intended that great masses of mankind be included in this administrative body. LUKE 12:32: “Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (In the original language used in this part of the Bible, the word “little” (mi·kroś) is the opposite of great (mégas), and its use at Luke 12:32 refers to quantity or fewness in number. Hence, membership in “the kingdom of the heavens” does not allow for an unlimited number. To illustrate: If you were asked to pour a little water into a glass, you would make sure that it did not overflow. So, too, the “little flock” cannot be made up of overflowing numbers of people. God’s Kingdom has a set (“little”) number of corulers with Christ. The exact number of these rulers, 144,000, was revealed to the apostle John.) REVELATION 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, who have been BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH.” REVELATION 7:3-4,9 “saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of [spiritual] Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.” OTHER SHEEP, THE GREAT CROWD It is obvious that the holy ones will be ruling over someone. Who might that be? (Matt. 5:5; 6:10) JOHN 10:16 ““And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” Or, as Today’s English Version puts it, “There are other sheep which belong to me that are not in this sheep pen.” (A “little flock” bought from the earth will be given the kingdom, and be given the special privilege presiding as rulers, judges and priests. Who do they rule over? The “other sheep.” “And they will become one flock.” We notice that he did not say, “One flock in one fold.” But though there might be separate folds, there was to be only “one shepherd.) If the fold, or pen, represents an ongoing distinction between two classes of Christians, then it cannot represent the difference between Jews and Gentiles, because that distinction is abolished in the spirit-begotten “little flock.” (Gal. 3:28; Eph. 2:15) The only ongoing distinction between two classes of Christians would be the distinction between spiritual Jews and those who are not such. This is the same as the distinction between Abraham’s “seed” and the “nations” who would be blessed by it. It is the same as the distinction between the 144,000 members of spiritual Israel, mentioned in Revelation chapter 7, and the limitless “great crowd” of persons from all the nations mentioned right afterward. After the mention of the 144,000 who have been bought from the earth, we are told: REVELATION 7:9 “After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.” PSALM 72:7-8 “In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. And he [Jesus, Prince of Peace] will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.” (The subjects of God’s Kingdom will be a global family of humans who are submissive to Christ’s leadership. See Heb 1:2) ok, that's it.

HI David
Ok..This is what I think your telling me..
Luke 12:32.The little flock,are Jehovah's Witnesses because..
Matthew 25:31-46.. Jehovah's Witnesses the only ones who fit the bill because of their works.
Romans 6:3-5 .JW's are the joint heirs and the rest of us believers are goats.

JW's are not the only ones who spread the Word and study their Bibles and do good works.
I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity.
I choose to follow the Bible's teaching, and test the spirit behind all other teachings on the Word. JW's interpretation dosn't sit right with me, but I appreciate your time and effort to answer my question.
God bless you David.

[Casey S Smith 29]

Debra, did you not read what I said? Will you follow a group of people who have changed their doctrine to fit their leaders words? Did you not read the timeline? I am sorry you think my Scriptural basis is wrong and his is right. That shows me you did not investigate anything.

[Debra]

Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Oct. 18 2006,23:06)

Debra, did you not read what I said? Will you follow a group of people who have changed their doctrine to fit their leaders words? Did you not read the timeline? I am sorry you think my Scriptural basis is wrong and his is right. That shows me you did not investigate anything.

Hi Casey
You've lost me I don't agree with David, where did I say his scriptual basis is right and yours wrong?
I do not agree with JW's
I did read what you said, and the information on the JW's founder I had read about before.
So what are you on about?

[NickHassan]

Hi debra,
I have yet to grasp what makes someone one of the 144.000 in the JW system.

[david]

Quote

You sure? Have you been to Brooklyn? Have you met your president or current overseer? Have you met the head body up there? Do you know how much he makes?

Yes. Yes. Not the current one. The past one. Yes.
Essentially, room and board.

Quote

1 billion dollars minues that is 999,487,750 left. That is a huge amount of paper!

I wasn't saying anyone gets paid 150. I was saying the numbers that we're dealing with, a billion isn't that much.
They also print about 1 Billion magazines a year. Actually, now it's probably down to 800 million. (They only make one issue of the Awake per month.) How much does it cost to make a billion magazines? That's just the magazines. Sure, a billion dollars may flow into the organization. But how much flows out in the form of literature?
I have met people who worked at Bethel–some of those employees you mentioned. I can't remember exactly what they are paid, but it is below $20/month. I remember watching a tv show showing a JW lawyer in Bethal who was handling a case. The interviewer asked the lawyer how much he was being paid. His answer was that the one who he was defending didn't have money so he wasn't being paid anything. And I remember the interviewer saying that those who work at Bethal recieve room and board.

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If that ALL goes to printing, you are responsible for the decrease of oxygen levels due to the tons of trees your industry has to be killing. Didn't I read that God will punish those who destroy the earth? Hmmmmm food for thought.

Right, let's stop making Bibles then. Is that what you're saying?

Quote

Quote 24th on a list of the TOP 40 NYC Corporations — up there with the likes of Hearst and Trump and several BIG name investment, accounting, and insurance firms. Quote The Penn. company has revenue of $79 million and net assets of approx $600 million. The New York company is obviously the biggie, which would explain why it's been so difficult to get hold of financials for it, without actually trying to phone them and ask for a copy. Assuming (right off the top of my head) a 10% net profit %tage, the NY company would accumulate approx. $100 million dollars to it's net assets every year. Confirmation that we are talking about a multi-billion dollar enterprise.

Yes, we're up there on the list. Printing Bibles and literature for the world in an effort to preach the good news of Gods kingdom to all the nations would take a lot, wouldn't it?
The one who assumes a net profit of 10% doesn't understand at all. We are not in it for profit. He should not assume such.
Listen. You can go into any kingdom hall in the world and ask for whatever you like: 100 Bibles, cd's, whatever, and you won't be asked to give a penny. Nothing. What does that say? It speaks volumes.

Yes, there are contributions. It should be remembered that Jehovah's Witnesses form a united global brotherhood.
We're expanding greatly in some countries. Money is required for building places to gather for worship. It should be noted that we build kingdom halls out of the simplest materials, materials available at the site, and that the kingdom halls are not complex. It should be noted that they're done with volunteery work, and are often built in 3 days, a thing which often makes headlines. But they do still cost money and not all places have money.

2 CORINTHIANS 8:13-15
“For I do not mean for it to be easy for others, but hard on YOU; but that by means of an equalizing YOUR surplus just now might offset their deficiency, in order that their surplus might also come to offset YOUR deficiency, that an equalizing might take place. Just as it is written: “The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little.””

Hi debra.

You said:
[/QUOTE]Hi Casey
You've lost me I don't agree with David, where did I say his scriptual basis is right and yours wrong?
I do not agree with JW's
I did read what you said, and the information on the JW's founder I had read about before.
So what are you on about?

Quote

Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.

Quote

–Casey Apparently, Casey was wrong. As the one who created this thread sai:

I am studying every criticism that I hear about them. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. I also noticed that people who know nothing of the JWs have an unexplained vehement anger toward them. This continues to amaze me.

david

[NickHassan]

Hi,

“Nick, David's got a point. You can't speak ill of witnesses.”
Show me where I have spoken ill of a JW.
It is their human organisation that I do not respect.
It substitutes itself for the body of Christ.

[david]

Quote

HI David Ok..This is what I think your telling me.. Luke 12:32.The little flock,are Jehovah's Witnesses because.. Matthew 25:31-46.. Jehovah's Witnesses the only ones who fit the bill because of their works. Romans 6:3-5 .JW's are the joint heirs and the rest of us believers are goats. JW's are not the only ones who spread the Word and study their Bibles and do good works. I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity. I choose to follow the Bible's teaching, and test the spirit behind all other teachings on the Word. JW's interpretation dosn't sit right with me, but I appreciate your time and effort to answer my question. God bless you David.

Debra, what I'm telling you is the little flock are given the kingdom, as the scripture says. A kingdom is a government run by a king. Only a little flock need make up those who rule in this government, just like only a limited number need be in your countries government.

Those who make up the kingdom are to be kings and judges and priests. Therefore, they need someone to judge and rule over. Don't they? Don't they?
Of course, these ones who rule are not the only ones the Bible speaks of. Jesus said that he had “other sheep.”
After mentioning the 144,000, a “great crowd” is mentioned. The “joint heirs” you mentioned are those who make up the little flock who recieve the kingdom–Christ's brothers. They are joint heirs of the kingdom. Not everyone needs to be a king in this kingdom or to be given this kingdom. It will rule over mankind.

Debra, let me ask you this. Jesus fortold:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

Who all have come to you to discuss this kingdom? Did one of Casey's evangelical people come visit you? Did they come with the kingdom message? And are they unitedly preaching this message worldwide?

Debra, I truly believe Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones in the world fulfilling this scripture. They came to you. You know this. How many others have? And if they have, what did they discuss?
And if you moved to a village in the other side of the world, would you not find the same message being brought to you by the same people?

Quote

JW's are not the only ones who spread the Word and study their Bibles and do good works.

Yes, the mormon's spread their word, and do so for 2 years, if I'm right. 7 out of 10 of them are in North and South America. But I guess they're growing and expanding.
Other than the mormon's, I haven't seen people making an effort to reach other people. I've ran into the mormons a few times while I was going from door to door. That's the only other group, and I know this because I'm out there, doing it.
I have never had anyone come to me to make an effort to discuss the Bible or to tell me about God's kingdom.
I have studied with Mormons before. In the book of Nephi, not sure what chapter, but verses 28 and 29 (I know, this isn't helpful) it explains how their books are meant to support the Bible. But I've found things that clearly contradict it.

Quote

I have read a bit about your founder, I already knew what Casey spoke about and it puzzels me that JW's don't test the Spirt behind their teaching they just overlook this man's lack of integrity.

As Rejoycsing, who started this thread said:
“I am studying every criticism that I hear about them. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. I also noticed that people who know nothing of the JWs have an unexplained vehement anger toward them. This continues to amaze me.“
Some of what is said is actually true. Much is not. But I'm getting tired of people who come on this thread and only want to bash JW's. Even though they believe in the trinity, they don't go on the trinity thread and discuss it…they discuss it here. Same with everything else. Every 5 months or so, there's someone like that–Someone who's only goal seems to be to speak ill of JW's.

david

[david]

Quote

Show me where I have spoken ill of a JW.

I was just quoting what Casey said.

But Nick, are you saying you've never spoken ill of me? Well, I guess not nearly as much as some.
Thanks for that.

david

[Author]

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