Jehovah&#39;s Witness Church

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There are some foolish comments made their:
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Having a Ph.D. after your name doesn't give you translation skills; it is some of the work you presumably did in the process of earning that Ph.D. that may give you translation skills.

How absurd! If you have a Ph.D. in textual criticism or in Greek, Hebrew, Latin…etc.etc. It most CERTAINLY qualifies one to have translation skills.

I don't think you read that very carefully. Is it the paper that gives the man the ability to translate? Or is the work and time he spent studying that qualifies him to translate?
And just because someone has a PHD, doesn't mean they won't be extremely biased in their translations. It does mean they will know the in's and out's of making their bias work.

You speak of PH d's and you quote that site.

Fine. Here's someone on that site. Jason Beduhn. He is a Greek scholar and Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion Northern Arizona University. He holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, and M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington. He is the author of many articles in the areas of Biblical Studies and Manichaean Studies, and of the book, The Manichaean Body: In Discipline and Ritual (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2000), winner of the “Best First Book” prize from the American Academy of Religion.

Here's what this “scholar” says about the NWT:

“Atrocious, deceitful, and inaccurate” may be what some call the NWT, but such a characterization is completely erroneous. Nearly every message I have received since the Watchtower article came out has claimed that “all reputable scholars,” “every Greek or biblical scholar,” etc. has condemned the NWT. It often sounds like people are getting this quote from the same source. But whatever the source, it is a lie. I have looked into the matter, and found almost no reviews of the NWT in academic journals. Most date from the 50s and 60s (the NWT has been improved since then). This kind of blanket condemnation of the NWT does not exist, for the most part because biblical scholars are far too busy to review WBTS publications which are considered outside of academic interest. It is simply something we don't pay attention to. I would welcome the names of any scholar who has written a review of the KIT or NWT; I am looking for these reviews, which seem few and far between. For [this]characterization to be correct, [a critic] would have to point out places in the NWT where the translators deliberately give a false meaning for a word or phrase. Not a meaning within the range of possibility for the Greek, but something actually false and ungrammatical. Despite dozens of contacts in the last month, no one has yet supplied a single example which shows deliberate distortion (and I have checked many passages suggested to me). The fact is that the NWT is what I call a “hyper-literal” translation, it sticks very close to the Greek, even making awkward English reading. There are a few places where the translators seem to have gone far out of their way, sometimes to clarify something suggested by the Greek, often for no apparent reason (maybe my ignorance of fine points of Witness theology prevents me from grasping what they are up to). And if you look at any other available translation, you will find similar instances where interpretation has been worked into the text in a way that stretches, if it does not violate the Greek. Every translation is biased towards the views of the people who made it. It is hard to judge who is right and who is wrong simply by comparing versions. You must go back to the Greek.”

hmmm. The NWT is a “hyper-literal” translation that “sticks very close to the Greek,” even making “awkward English reading” because of this.

I would really rather stay on one topic, such as “worship” for a while and actually discuss it. YOu tend to state about 5 things that trouble you all at once. Makes it hard.

October 5, 2006 at 7:07 am#30079

Participant

Hi Casey.
You have previously stated:

Sept 27
“The 144,000 nowhere imply any heavenly realm of Jehovah's Witnesses but speak of 12000 from each tribe of Israel.”
Sept 28
“The 144,000 not at all having ANYTHING to due with the “elect” of God. WE are the priests and kings, not a mere select few.”
Oct 3
“The 144,000 in Revelation. I do not see where . . .144,000 are the elect of those who will reign with Christ while the majority of us will reign on earth. The 144,000 are seen without a doubt as Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, not Gentile. Where in all of the NT are they seen as the only ones who will be with Christ reigning. The quote of them reigning as kings and priests seems only applicable to all of the Epistles as a whole. I will be waiting expectantly.”

Well, I guess I should answer. Let’s begin with this question:

WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM?

GOD’S KINGDOM–A GOVERNMENT
ISAIAH 9:6, 7, RS:
“To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; “dominion,” JB, NE; “princely rule,” NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.”

The word rendered “kingdom” in the Christian Greek Scriptures is ba·si·leía, meaning “a kingdom, realm, the region or country governed by a king; kingly power, authority, dominion, reign; royal dignity, the title and honour of king.” (The Analytical Greek Lexicon, 1908, p. 67)

GOD’S KINGDOM CRUSHES OTHER KINGDOMS AND BRINGS TO NOTHING ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS.
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”
PSALMS 2:8, 9:
“Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”
(God’s kingdom will accomplish so much. But one thing that I mention here, is that it will remove imperfect earthly human governments which have not solved mankind’s problems. As well, unlike human governments, this kingdom “cannot be shaken.”–Heb 12:28)

GOD’S KINGDOM–IS IT IN THE HEARTS OF THE PHARISEES?
Many believe that Jesus said God’s kingdom was something inside of people’s hearts. According to one rendition of Jesus’ words to wicked Pharisees, he said: “The kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21, NIV, KJV) Did Jesus mean that the Kingdom was in the wicked hearts of those corrupt men, the very ones he condemned to Gehenna? (Mat 23:33) No. A more accurate translation of the original Greek reads: “The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation) Jesus, who was in their midst, thus referred to himself as the future King.
In this regard The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states: “Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ . . . understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ . . . is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—vs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole N[ew] T[estament] presentation of the idea.”
A footnote to Luke 17:21 in the New International Version shows that Jesus’ words could be rendered: “The kingdom of God is among you.” Other Bible translations read: “The kingdom of God is among you” or “is in the midst of you.” (The New English Bible; The Jerusalem Bible; Revised Standard Version) Jesus did not mean that the Kingdom was in the hearts of the proud Pharisees whom he was addressing. Rather, as the long-awaited Messiah and King-Designate, Jesus was in their very midst. Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler and subjects.

A KINGDOM HAS RULERS

JESUS IS ONE OF THESE RULERS
DANIEL 7:13, 14:
“With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ; see Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [Jehovah God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.”
REVELATION 11:15
“And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.””

JESUS HAS CO-RULERS, JOINT HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM
DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
DANIEL 7:22
“until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”
DANIEL 7:27
““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’”
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(At Revelation 14:1-3 these “bought from the earth” to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)
ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (See Heb 1:2)
REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
REVELATION 22:3-5
“And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and HIS SLAVES will render him sacred service; and THEY will see his face, and his name will be on THEIR foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and THEY have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon THEM, and they will RULE AS KINGS forever and ever.”

JESUS IS THE RULER OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,
” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”“
REVELATION 19:16
“And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”
REVELATION 21:24
“And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.”
PSALM 89:27
“Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.”

JESUS’ CO-RULERS ARE KINGS, JUDGES, PRIESTS AND MAKE UP GOD’S KINGDOM, THE GOVERNMENT
REVELATION 20:4-5
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
REVELATION 20:6:
“They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)
1 CORINTHIANS 4:8
“YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
1 CORINTHIANS 6:2:
“Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?” (Compare Rev 20:4)
2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;”
REVELATION 5:10:
“You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.” Really, looking only at this scripture, that word could be translated either way. But based on the rest of the Bible, it seems to me the word “over” is a better translation.)
LUKE 22:28-30
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4.

A LITTLE FLOCK OF 144,000 MAKES UP THE KINGDOM, RULING WITH CHRIST
LUKE 12:32:
“Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
REVELATION 14:1-3:
“I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, who have been BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH.”
REVELATION 7:3-4,9
“saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”

OTHER SHEEP, THE GREAT CROWD
It is obvious that the holy ones will be ruling over someone. Who might that be? (Matt. 5:5; 6:10)
JOHN 10:16
““And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
(A “little flock” bought from the earth will be given the kingdom, and be given the special privilege presiding as rulers, judges and priests. Who do they rule over? The “other sheep.”)
After the mention of the 144,000 who have been bought from the earth, we are told:
REVELATION 7:9
“After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”
PSALM 72:7-8
“In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. And he [Jesus, Prince of Peace] will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.”
(The subjects of God’s Kingdom will be a global family of humans who are submissive to Christ’s leadership. See Heb 1:2)

ARE THE 144,000 ONLY NATURAL JEWS?
The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons. The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Numbers chapter 1. Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E. But more important, John received his vision upon a background of the aforementioned developments from and after Pentecost 33 C.E. In the light of such events, John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 “bought from among mankind.”—Re 7:4; 14:1, 4.
REVELATION 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.”
(These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16. Obviously, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israel. This is balanced. There are to be exactly 144,000 members of this new nation—12,000 from each of 12 tribes. No tribe in this Israel of God is exclusively royal or priestly. The whole nation is to rule as kings, and the whole nation is to serve as priests.—Galatians 6:16; Revelation 20:4, 6.)
ROMANS 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”
GALATIONS 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham
’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

ARE THE NATURAL JEWS TODAY GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE?
Consider: Following the Babylonian exile, when Israel was restored to its land, the people were to restore true worship in their God-given land. One of the first projects undertaken was the rebuilding of Jehovah’s temple in Jerusalem. However, since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 C.E., the temple has never been rebuilt. Instead, in the former temple area stands an Islamic shrine. If the Jews, who say they are under the Mosaic Law, were today in Jerusalem as God’s chosen people, would not the temple devoted to his worship have been rebuilt?
MATTHEW 21:42, 43: “Jesus said to them [the chief priests and the older men of the Jews in Jerusalem]: ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures, “The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes”? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from youand be given to a nation producing its fruits.’”
MATTHEW 23:37, 38: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you.”

DOES GOD’S COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM GIVE ASSURANCE THAT THE JEWS CONTINUTE TO BE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD?
GALATIANS. 3:27-29: “All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”
(So, from God’s standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham’s seed.)

WILL ALL THE JEWS BE CONVERTED TO FAITH IN CHRIST AND ATTAIN TO ETERNAL SALVATION?
ROMANS 11:25, 26: “I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner [“this is how,” TEV; “thus,” CC, By; Greek, hoútos] all Israel will be saved.”
(Notice that the saving of “all Israel” is accomplished, not by conversion of all the Jews, but by the ‘coming in’ of people from Gentile nations. Some translators render verse 26: “And then after this the rest of Israel will be saved.” But A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament [Edinburgh, 1937, G. Abbott-Smith, p. 329] defines hoútos as meaning “in this way, so, thus.”)
To arrive at a correct understanding of what is recorded at Romans 11:25, 26, we should also take into account these earlier statements in Romans: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.” (2:28, 29) “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’”—9:6.

AMONG WHOM DO THE PROPHECIES ABOUT RESTORATION OF ISRAEL HAVE FULFILLMENT TODAY?
GALATIANS 6:15, 16: “Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”
(So “the Israel of God” is no longer determined on the basis of conforming to the requirement laid upon Abraham for all the males of his household to be circumcised. Rather, as stated at Galatians 3:26-29, those who belong to Christ and who are spirit-begotten sons of God “are really Abraham’s seed.”)
JEREMIAH 31:31-34: “‘Look! There are days coming,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant . . . And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, “Know Jehovah!” for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” (That new covenant was made, not with the nation of natural Israel, but with the loyal followers of Jesus Christ to whom hope of heavenly life was being extended. When instituting the Memorial of his death, Jesus gave them a cup of wine and said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood.” [1 Cor. 11:25])
REVELATION 7:4: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.”
(But in the verses that follow, mention is made of “the tribe of Levi” and “the tribe of Joseph.” These were not included in lists of the 12 tribes of natural Israel. Interestingly, while it is said that people would be “sealed out of every tribe,” the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned. [Compare Numbers 1:4-16.] Reference must here be made to the spiritual Israel of God, to those whom Revelation 14:1-3 shows will share with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom.)
HEBREWS 12:22: “You have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels.”
(Thus it is not to earthly Jerusalem but to “heavenly Jerusalem” that true Christians look for fulfillment of the promises of God.)

IS THE NUMBER 144,000 MERELY SYMBOLIC?
The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number. He states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group, “a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.
Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”
British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: “It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.” (The Apocalypse or “The Day of the Lord,” page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: “The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.” He added: “It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.
The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.” (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32; 22:29)

hmmm. That's enough for now. What was the question again? The kingdom was the principle theme of Jesus' teaching, a primary theme of the entire Bible. It really should be discussed more on here.

david

October 5, 2006 at 8:07 am#30082

Participant

Hi david,
Yes that is the official JW doctrine. But what do you believe?

October 5, 2006 at 4:12 pm#30096

Participant

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We look ot the governing body in brooklyn in the same way that the early Christians looked to the governing body in Jersualem.

The apostle wrote:
“Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith.” (Hebrews 13:7)
To whom did Paul refer when he said, “Remember those who are taking the lead among you” or “are governors of you”—New World Translation Reference Bible, footnote.”?
Paul spoke of those “taking the lead,” or governing. (Verses 7, 17, 24) The English word “govern” is derived through Latin from the Greek ky•ber•na′o, meaning to “steer a ship, direct, govern.” Christian elders govern by using their “abilities to direct” (Greek, ky•ber•ne′seis) in providing leadership and guidance in local congregations. (1 Corinthians 12:28)

But the apostles and other elders in Jerusalem served as a body to give guidance and counsel to all the congregations. (Acts 15:1, 2, 27-29) Today, therefore, a governing body of elders provides spiritual oversight for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.

MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

How would such a work get accomplished without oversight, organization, etc?

From the beginning, Jesus’ anointed followers were organized. As the number of disciples multiplied, local congregations were established and elders were appointed. (Titus 1:5) After 33 C.E., the 12 apostles acted as an authoritative central governing body. As such, they took a fearless lead in the witness work. (Acts 4:33, 35, 37; 5:18, 29) They organized the distribution of food to needy ones, and they sent Peter and John to Samaria to follow up on reports of interest there. (Acts 6:1-6; 8:6-8, 14-17) Barnabas took Paul to them to have it confirmed that this former persecutor was now a follower of Jesus. (Acts 9:27; Galatians 1:18, 19) And after Peter had preached to Cornelius and his household, he returned to Jerusalem and explained to the apostles and other Judean brothers how holy spirit had indicated God’s will in this case.—Acts 11:1-18.

Then the governing body came under brutal attack. Peter was imprisoned, and his life was saved only by angelic intervention. (Acts 12:3-11) Now for the first time, someone other than one of the 12 apostles appeared in a prominent position in Jerusalem. When Peter was released from prison, he told a group gathered in the house of the mother of John Mark: “Report these things to James [Jesus’ half brother] and the brothers.”—Acts 12:17.

Previously, after Judas Iscariot, the traitorous apostle, committed suicide, a need was discerned to give “his office of oversight” as an apostle to someone who had been with Jesus during his ministry and who had witnessed his death and resurrection. However, when James, the brother of John, was executed, no one replaced him as one of the 12. (Acts 1:20-26; 12:1, 2) Rather, the next Scriptural reference to the governing body shows that it had been enlarged. When a dispute arose over whether Gentiles who followed Jesus should submit to the Mosaic Law, the matter was submitted for decision to “the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem.” (Acts 15:2, 6, 20, 22, 23; 16:4) Why were “older men” now evidently on the governing body? The Bible does not say, but there was an obvious benefit. The death of James and the imprisonment of Peter had shown that the apostles might one day be imprisoned or killed. In such a contingency, the presence of other qualified elders, experienced in governing body procedures, would ensure the orderly continuance of oversight.

When Paul came to Jerusalem about the year 56 C.E., he reported to James and, the Bible says, “all the older men were present.” (Acts 21:18) Why was there no mention of apostles at this meeting? Again, the Bible does not say. But the historian Eusebius later reported that some time before 66 C.E., “the remaining apostles, in constant danger from murderous plots, were driven out of Judea. But to teach their message they travelled into every land in the power of Christ.” (Eusebius, Book III, V, v. 2) True, Eusebius’ words are not part of the inspired record, but they do harmonize with what that record says. For example, by 62 C.E., Peter was in Babylon—far from Jerusalem. (1 Peter 5:13) Still, in 56 C.E., and likely right up until 66 C.E., a governing body was clearly active in Jerusalem.

david

“How would such a work get accomplished without an oversight…”
Which One David? How do you know yours is right?

You make presumptions by saying that the leaders and elders here would be the Watchtower. We Protestants submit to whichever leaders or pastors of our Churches. We do not however make those leaders our source of truth for teaching. They can interpret Scripture but not infallibly, which is the mistake that Mormons make and Catholics make. We do not go Lone Ranger but we do not expect our leaders to be inspired on their deliveries or doctrine – theological presuppositions.

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I have looked into the matter, and found almost no reviews of the NWT in academic journals. Most date from the 50s and 60s (the NWT has been improved since then). This kind of blanket condemnation of the NWT does not exist, for the most part because biblical scholars are far too busy to review WBTS publications which are considered outside of academic interest.

Well I do not know what “academic” circles he is investigating but I have found many. I will give some later on.

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The fact is that the NWT is what I call a “hyper-literal” translation, it sticks very close to the Greek, even making awkward English reading. There are a few places where the translators seem to have gone far out of their way, sometimes to clarify something suggested by the Greek, often for no apparent reason (maybe my ignorance of fine points of Witness theology prevents me from grasping what they are up to)

I could not have said it better myself. His “ignorance” of the JW teaching leaves him in an unknown position and in my opinion not as equipped to give a review of the NWT.

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hmmm. The NWT is a “hyper-literal” translation that “sticks very close to the Greek,” even making “awkward English reading” because of this.

To have a “hyper-literal” translation makes a grammatically incorrect rendering, not following the rules of translating from one language to another. The most literal translation would be the NASB, which at times would be considered “wooden” but never awkward. For instance if you said “gracias” (thank you) I would say “de nada” (your welcome). A hyper literal would be “of nothing” not “your welcome” which does not make any sense at all sir.

You made the comment the NWT states “obesiance to” and I say so what? What does that prove. You asked if witnesses are supposed to just quote from the NWT but then just quote from the NWT…circular reasoning.

[/QUOTE]WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM?

GOD’S KINGDOM–A GOVERNMENT

GOD’S KINGDOM CRUSHES OTHER KINGDOMS AND BRINGS TO NOTHING ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS.

GOD’S KINGDOM–IS IT IN THE HEARTS OF THE PHARISEES?

A KINGDOM HAS RULERS

JESUS IS ONE OF THESE RULERS

JESUS HAS CO-RULERS, JOINT HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM

JESUS IS THE RULER OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH

JESUS’ CO-RULERS ARE KINGS, JUDGES, PRIESTS AND MAKE UP GOD’S KINGDOM, THE GOVERNMENT

We are in agreement here sir.

A LITTLE FLOCK OF 144,000 MAKES UP THE KINGDOM, RULING WITH CHRIST
LUKE 12:32:
“Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
REVELATION 14:1-3:
“I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, who have been BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH.”
REVELATION 7:3-4,9
“saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”

OTHER SHEEP, THE GREAT CROWD
It is obvious that the holy ones will be ruling over someone. Who might that be? (Matt. 5:5; 6:10)
JOHN 10:16
““And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
(A “little flock” bought from the earth will be given the kingdom, and be given the special privilege presiding as rulers, judges and priests. Who do they rule over? The “other sheep.”)
After the mention of the 144,000 who have been bought from the earth, we are told:
REVELATION 7:9
“After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”
PSALM 72:7-8
“In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. And he [Jesus, Prince of Peace] will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.”
(The subjects of God’s Kingdom will be a global family of humans who are submissive to Christ’s leadership. See Heb 1:2)

We are not in agreement here. The passages taken from the Gospels here are taken way out of context to fit the witnesses theologial presuppositions. If you notice Jesus is talking to the immediate flock, “take heed little flock…”
Next think about this: There are 200 years from this little flock being a literal 144,000 (we are also in agreement) and the witnesses that believe they are the elect of the remnant spoken of here think they are of this small number when nineteen hundred years have gone by, but for some reason God chose to have the majority of these elect to be in this century??? Abrurd.

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Also Jerusalem’s temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed, lost forever, long before John had his vision in 96 C.E

Is not the Almighty powerful enough to know which of the scaterred Jews are His? The comment of the tribe of Joseph would be his sons if you recall. Do not cut/paste some passages of the Penteteuch.
Notice also that the 144,000 are virgins. The witnesses that think they are of the 144,000 are far from virgins being fathers. To be a father one is no longer a virgin sir. So to take the literal 144,000 and think the virgins are not literal is again hypocrital.

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The Greek proskynéo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hishtachawah́ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in proskynéo as in hishtachawah́, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb kynéo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.

So you prove my point here. What about Shadderach, Mishaach, and Abednego not proskynéo to the image Nebuchadnezzer made. Clearly they felt bowing down or giving homage was the same thing as worship.

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For example, this is the term used:
at Matthew 14:33 to express what the disciples did toward Jesus;
at Hebrews 1:6 to indicate what the angels are to do toward Jesus;
at Genesis 22:5 in the Greek Septuagint to describe what Abraham did toward Jehovah;
at Genesis 23:7 to describe what Abraham did, in harmony with the custom of the time, toward people with whom he was doing business;
at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Septuagint to describe the prophet Nathan’s action on approaching King David.
at Matthew 18:26 in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king.

Keep it in context remember? It seems the witnesses will do anything to say Jesus was not worshipped. Yet God chose ONE main word to describe it.

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NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:
At MATTHEW 4:10 (RS), Jesus said: “You shall worship [from proskynéo] the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.”
(At Deuteronomy 6:13, which Jesus is evidently here quoting, appears the personal name of God, the Tetragrammaton.) In harmony with that, we must understand that it is proskynéo with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be directed only toward God.

We are speaking of Satan here sir!

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Mt 28:5-10 Lu 24:50-52 Joh 9:38

Worshipped!

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While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí prosky&#
769;neson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9)

Are we contradicting ourselves?

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(Lu 20:41-43; Mt 12:42; Ac 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him.

Exactly! SO it seems the kingdom hall says that with Jesus it could never be worshipped? Bias, Bias, Bias.

[/QUOTE]True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3)

You again prove my point! “Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus.”

Are we talking out of both sides of our mouth?

SHOULD YOU BELIEVE THE TRINITY @1989 WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY

P28 “Still even though Jesus was called “Mighty” there can only be one wh is “Almighty”.

What difference does that make? Uh, Jesus you are just (m)ighty not (A)lmighty so you are not God. Well that is ok my son, semantics made many a man perish.

p19 (Acts 7:55) “Clearly, he saw two seperate individuals…”

What? NO MAN CAN SEE ME AND LIVE! GOD IS A SPIRIT! HE IS INVISIBLE! But clearly he saw two?

p6 “the NT does not contain an 'explicit' doctrine of the Trinity” from a quote of The Encyclopedia of Religion.

But does it contain an implicit? If not then how does your 144,000 seem to fit “explicitly”?

Well David, I think you need to investigate your authority yo usubmit to. Be careful though, you could be kicked out if you do!

October 5, 2006 at 6:08 pm#30101

Participant

Hi casey,
A few things,
You said
“Notice also that the 144,000 are virgins. The witnesses that think they are of the 144,000 are far from virgins being fathers. To be a father one is no longer a virgin sir. So to take the literal 144,000 and think the virgins are not literal is again hypocrital.”

But scripture uses the word “virgin” in a different sense. It is to do with faithfullness in the same way as God regards idolatry as adultery.

2Cor 11
“1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him”

What is also plain is that the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel whereas the huge crowds seen is from no specified nation.
“REVELATION 7:3-4,9
“saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”

The angel is told to hold back until the 144,000 are sealed which shows that it is at the time of the Great Tribulation and so these do not relate to anyone living before that time. They are the first fruits as Israel has always been the chosen people. In my view they are the few from Israel in the last days who see the one they have pierced and mourn,, who are sealed with the Name of the Father as Jews well as the Name of Jesus and Christians, who are redeemed in Jesus and they become bond servants in the temple as Rev 22 shows.

” 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.”

So the JW view is way off and they are compelled to hold to these false teachings.

October 5, 2006 at 9:17 pm#30118

Participant

Yes sir…you may be correct in that analysis of the term “virgins”. I guess I should have read deeper into that but I just found some of the descriptions of the 144,000 to not fit any of the witnesses defense.
I agree with you 100% in regard to the Watchtower being false in regard to that thesis.

October 5, 2006 at 9:20 pm#30120

Participant

Quote

Posted: Oct. 04 2006,22:44

——————————————————————————–
Quote
Are you not free to follow him but you have to obey those men?

I am going to ask the same question Nick asked. From what my previous witness friends tell me, if you go against the elders in regard to teaching or getting a blood transfusion, or celbrating holidays…etc,etc, you will be “kicked out” until you “repent”.

How is that following Christ and not following men?

You never answered this quesiton sir.

I call you sir out of respect David. From my name you should be able to guess I am almost thirty. I am called sir by my kids at times (though I do not demand that as such) and others. I do not feel elderly. So how old are you anyway sir? Or should I say…kid?

October 5, 2006 at 10:00 pm#30130

Participant

PSS:
David I know you said to stick with one topic at a time but I think I have been thorough in answering your comments and inquiries suffieciently so I ask the same, so please answer the above.

Next question:

Jesus took the throne in 1914 from what I understand correct? What Scriptural support is their for this. It seems sir that the Watchtower has inferred many things and deferred the questions. From Scriptures we see that Christ was reigning in the first century in Heaven.
The defense for an invisible appearance of Christ is unwarranted. Paul, Peter, James, Jude, John all spoke of His Coming as visible and all eyes will see Him.
At His Coming the resurrection will take place, which has not.

October 6, 2006 at 12:40 am#30141

Participant

Quote

But scripture uses the word “virgin” in a different sense. It is to do with faithfullness in the same way as God regards idolatry as adultery.

Yes, Paul, Peter, “the apostles,” weren't literal virgins. Most were married.

October 6, 2006 at 1:11 am#30145

Sultan

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 05 2006,20:40)

Quote

But scripture uses the word “virgin” in a different sense. It is to do with faithfullness in the same way as God regards idolatry as adultery.

Yes, Paul, Peter, “the apostles,” weren't literal virgins. Most were married.

Doesn't Jesus tell the apostles that they will have thrones to judge from? Nowhere in scripture are they told that they will be part of the 144,000.

October 6, 2006 at 1:14 am#30147

Participant

Hi Sultan,
Quite so.

October 6, 2006 at 1:29 am#30148

Participant

HI Casey. I”m sorry if some of the below comes off as being direct or rough. But it seems you aren't really trying to figure things out, but are attempting to discredit JW's regardless of what is true.

Quote

“How would such a work get accomplished without an oversight…”
Which One David? How do you know yours is right?

Is your religion “right” Casey? Which religious background exactly are you from?

The “work” I was clearly speaking of was the global witness that Jesus fortold, the witness about God's kingdom which really only one group on earth is unitedly doing. (mat 24:14.)

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I could not have said it better myself. His “ignorance” of the JW teaching leaves him in an unknown position and in my opinion not as equipped to give a review of the NWT.

This is what I would call beyond ridiculous. You speak of scholars. I give you one. You immediately dismiss his study of the NWT because he isn't a JW? Or because he isn't familiar with our beliefs? What in the world does that have to do with translating? It would be better if he didn't know any beliefs at all, and only knew translation skills. Then, Casey, he would be completely unbiased.

In your own words:
“How absurd! If you have a Ph.D. in textual criticism or in Greek, Hebrew, Latin…etc.etc. It most CERTAINLY qualifies one to have translation skills.”

Is this “CERTAINLY” true, or isn't it? Let me guess. It's true when it's a scholar in your favor. Right? Doesn't that seem …. wrong.

Quote

If the NWT is “hyper-literal” or excessively literal, as you seem to agree to, because you knock it down because of this, and if the NASB is the “most literal translation,” doesn't logic suggest that the NASB is even more excessively “hyper” literal? Think about what you said.

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What it proves, CASEY, is that the NWT uses the most basic word to describe proskyneo, rather than picking and choosing where it should be “worship” or “bowed down” or “honoured.”
As you yourself once said:
“In regard to the NWT, I applaud the Watchtowers honesty avoiding being biased as best as they can.”–page 10
The same cannot be said of a lot of other trinitarian translators. In the oldest edition of the NWT, the word “worship” was used once in reference to Jesus, if I remember correctly. But, on research, it becomes clear that it should not be translated like with reference to Jesus. So, we it was changed to a better translation. A biased traslation starts with a belief and goes with it. We sometimes change our beliefs. Who is biased?
“In regard to the NWT, I applaud the Watchtowers honesty avoiding being biased as best as they can.”–Casey

It uses “worship” with reference to God Almighty, and uses “worship” in places where what the person doing was clearly wrong, hence, clearly something that only Jehovah was worthy of.

First, you accuse JW's of using different translations when it suits us. I explain that if we only used one, we'd continually have these accusations thrown at us, such as I'm enduring right now. We use various Bibles. Now, you're accusing me of only using the NWT. Ok, fine. I'll expect your posts to have multiple Bible references from various Bibles from now on. Otherwise, I guess you're up to something. Fair enough.

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If you notice Jesus is talking to the immediate flock, “take heed little flock…”

Casey, I quoted all those other scriptures, which we agree on, showing what the kingdom is. It's a government. It has rulers. It has judges and priests that are kings as well.
I don't know where you live, but I'm going to suggest that maybe everyone that lives where you live is not a ruler and isn't in government. Without even knowing what place you live, I am certain that not everyone who lives there makes up the government. AM I RIGHT? Having a place with everyone in the governement is wrong by definition. A ruler rules over people. No?
So, when he said: “have no fear, little flock, because your father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”
Not everyone needs to be in the government to benefit from that government. The people in the government have jobs: judging, ruling, presiding as priests.

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Next think about this: There are 200 years from this little flock being a literal 144,000 (we are also in agreement) and the witnesses that believe they are the elect of the remnant spoken of here think they are of this small number when nineteen hundred years have gone by, but for some reason God chose to have the majority of these elect to be in this century??? Abrurd.

I'm guessing you mean 2000 years. hmmm. I don't know if it's the majority. I do know that a variety of people from all tribes and tongues and people and nations will be judging us. (rev 5:9,10) This is fair. A jury of peers.

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Is not the Almighty powerful enough to know which of the scaterred Jews are His?

The natural Israelites had their chance. they could have made up that kingdom. the BIBLE says that the kingdom would be “taken from you” and given to another people. I believe this is the “Israel of God.”
What does the Bible say about Israel? Who makes up Israel according to God? You make no comment on the scriptures I posted.

Quote

The witnesses that think they are of the 144,000 are far from virgins being fathers. To be a father one is no longer a virgin sir.

So to take the literal 144,000 and think the virgins are not literal is again hypocrital.

AS YOU LATER ACKNOWLEDGE TO NICK: “I guess I should have read deeper into that.” I guess too. If me saying the virgins are not literal virgins, WITH THEY WITHOUT QUESTION AREN'T, then I guess you seein
g that they aren't literal virgins was just wrong.

Quote

I didn't prove you point here. First, proskyneo is a greek word that wouldn't have been in Daniel. Listen, are you saying it's ok to bow down to a false god or ido, but that it's not ok to worship it? In your word, but spelt correctly: “Absurd.”

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Keep it in context remember? It seems the witnesses will do anything to say Jesus was not worshipped. Yet God chose ONE main word to describe it.

The indisputable fact which bothers you so greatly is that that word rendered worship can just as easily be rendered other ways. We know this because it applies to humans as well. Are you implying that because it's “one” word, it should be translated the same everywhere, with some humans being worshipped?
In your words, “absurd.”

Quote

Quote
While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him, and the angel or angels of John’s vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as “a fellow slave” and concluding with the exhortation to “worship God [toi Theoí proskýneson].” (Ac 10:25, 26; Re 19:10; 22:8, 9)

Are we contradicting ourselves?

No, we're not.

Quote

Exactly! SO it seems the kingdom hall says that with Jesus it could never be worshipped? Bias, Bias, Bias.

If you knew us a little better, you would know we are going on Jesus words. He tells us who to worship.
‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’–Jesus
Obviously, the word here, should be worship. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense. Other's are rightly bowed down to in the Bible, kings, etc. But only Jehovah is worthy of worship. Him alone of sacred service.

I actually have to go now. I can't read the rest of your post at this moment.

Again, I ask, please, find one subject. We'll discuss it in much greater detail.

October 6, 2006 at 6:26 am#30158

Participant

Sultan, Hi.
YOu say:

Quote

Doesn't Jesus tell the apostles that they will have thrones to judge from? Nowhere in scripture are they told that they will be part of the 144,000.

You are right that the number of those who would judge wasn't revealed except in Revelation, a word I think means “revealed.”
So ya, we have those in the gospels who are told they will rule as kings and judge.
And in Revelation, we similarly have ones who sit on thrones to judge and rule as kings. (rev 20:4)
Are their two groups who do this same task? I realize the number of them is only revealed in the book of revelations.

david

October 6, 2006 at 7:14 am#30159

Sultan

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2006,02:26)

Sultan, Hi.
YOu say:

Quote

Doesn't Jesus tell the apostles that they will have thrones to judge from? Nowhere in scripture are they told that they will be part of the 144,000.

david

I believe the number of them is revealed both in Revelations and Mathew 19:28

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. Just an observation.

October 6, 2006 at 7:20 am#30160

Participant

Hi Sultan,
So the apostles will judge the Jewish people
and the gentiles?
1Cor 3
” 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? “

Though in view of Rev 20
” 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:”
I suspect that it will be acting as judges and kings during the 1000 yr reign rather than anything to do with the White throne judgement.
cf Lk 19
” 15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.”

and 2Tim 2

” 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”

October 6, 2006 at 7:29 am#30161

Is 1:18

Participant

David, Sultan…..the book is called 'Revelation' (singular), not Revelations….

October 6, 2006 at 4:29 pm#30168

Participant

Quote

Matters of theology are not to be taken lightly so I would expect one such as yourself and I to defend them directly even if at times they come off “harsh”, Jesus himself rebuked the religious leaders rather harshly. Having said though I think you took it too far by correcting my word I mispelled “aburb” I htink it was to “absurd”. I have a 4.0 in English so I do not find my self inadequate by any means, but again am at work and have to get these out quickly sir.

Quote

Is your religion “right” Casey? Which religious background exactly are you from?

My “religion” sir? I hold that Christianity is the correct “religion” sir. It is Christianity that hold to the Name of Jesus as being the only way to God, not Mohammed or Allah, not Budda, not Confusious, not any of the gods of Hinduism, not Osiris or Ra, not Mormons gods, not the Pope, not the god “within of the New Age Movement, not the Great Architect in the sky of the Lodge of Masons, not Lucifer (light bearer), not Communism…etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc…pick your poison.
Now I will assume you mean which denomination am I? I do not hold to any as such but hold to tenants of some and not of others. I am an Evangelical who believes in the annihilation of the soul. God will resurrect the wicked according to Jesus' own words and Daniel's. There will be gnashing of teeth and weeping at in the presence of God and his holiness in which the wicked will have no righteousness within themselves to stand His Glory and then they will be judged according to their deeds and cast into the Lake of Fire to be forever dead never again to be seen.

I hold to the Five Points of Calvin – TULIP which I will not go into due to the indepth and inexhaustable works already done on them and it would take WAAAAAAAAAAAY too long to cover it.

I believe once a person has been born again by the Spirit of God that person is sealed unto the Day of Redemption for God cannot deny Himself. I do not adhere to a phrase “once saved always saved” fot that is a misnomer. A person TRULY born again will persevere untill the end. “They left us because they were not apart of us” 1 John.

You can say I hold to the same tenents that the original Reformers held to but where you and I part is that you hold your organization to be pretty much infallible and think their teachings are unquestionable when you do not realize sir that your organization made up of men adhere to many traditions of men.

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The “work” I was clearly speaking of was the global witness that Jesus fortold, the witness about God's kingdom which really only one group on earth is unitedly doing. (mat 24:14.)

Well since you pointed out my spelling errors here is the same: foretold – (cheap shot isn't it sir?)
You make a HUGE PRESUMPTION here! ONE GROUP!!!!!!!!!! You need to get out more and wake up and see that your disdain for your term that witnesses always imply Christendom is laboring and reaping the harvest!

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I could not have said it better myself. His “ignorance” of the JW teaching leaves him in an unknown position and in my opinion not as equipped to give a review of the NWT.

Untrue, for one I never discredited him as a scholar. For two, his lack of understanding of your beliefs that are at times (at times, not all the time in which you misquoted me in applauding the NWT 'at times”) inferred into the text leave him wihtout the proper knowledge to see what passages are mistranslated and are interpreted into the text. It would be wise to study textual criticism or at least become familar with the 5300 texts that are available in Greek to gain some insight into this topic. It seems you are speaking of things you know not. Your defense of the NWT is just parroting your Watchtower literature. You are also cutting and pasting “our” literature at your on leizure and I might at at your own cost.

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Is this “CERTAINLY” true, or isn't it? Let me guess. It's true when it's a scholar in your favor. Right? Doesn't that seem ….

I believe I answered your question in my reply above. Let me make a point here sir. As far as I know, there are NO SCHOLARS (as far as I know) in the field of the Watchtower. NONE! What does that say? But again, as far as I know the JW do not allow their members to read literature of the opposite views. So in a sense you are in disobediance. At first the Watchtower would not allow their followers to view the www, now they can at discretion. When I have had some members of the past come to my house, and I made a deal with them, “I will read and study your material if you study mine” to which they would reply, “we do not read other literature since we do not believe you are in 'the' truth.” So having said that, their are no Scholars. There are no members of the kingdom halls all over the world that hold a B.A. – B.S. – M Div – Doctorate in Divinty – and I could go on and on. I am not saying they do not hold degrees in business or whatever but in areas of more importance they do not.

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I you recall what I actually said was this sir:

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so your:

doesn't logic suggest that the NASB is even more excessively “hyper” lite
ral? Think about what you said.

…does not make any since. The NASB is the MOST Literal but unlike the hyper literal of the NWT it follows the grammatical rules of grammer. Making sense of the English and not straining at a gnat to fit the conjecture into the axiom of “hyper”.

What it proves, CASEY, is that the NWT uses the most basic word to describe proskyneo, rather than picking and choosing where it should be “worship” or “bowed down” or “honoured.”

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It uses “worship” with reference to God Almighty, and uses “worship” in places where what the person doing was clearly wrong, hence, clearly something that only Jehovah was worthy of.

…and yet you nonchalantly passed over:

True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3)

How can you reconcile these two factors is beyond me. Maybe your view is just as “mysterious” as the Trinity? Worship is in reference to God Almighty but then use you say:

‘and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus’

JW speak of the Trinity as illogical. I say your explanation or should I say refutation of Christ not being worshipped is illogical. Christ is not worshipped but the act of bowing down to Jehovah God is applied to Christ. From those words I would have to say anything and everything of Christ not being worshipped has been null and void and not worth much more of my time in explaining that Christ is worshipped for YOU YOURSELF just said it!

I say:
[Quote] Next think about this: There are 200 years from this little flock being a literal 144,000 (we are also in agreement) and the witnesses that believe they are the elect of the remnant spoken of here think they are of this small number when nineteen hundred years have gone by, but for some reason God chose to have the majority of these elect to be in this century??? Abrurd.]
Just to be fair I included my misspelled word to not cut and edit as I saw fit.
But then you say:

“I don’t know if it is the majority” Ten witnesses come and visit me. Two of those witnesses claim to be the “anointed” in five weeks.
52wks in a year = an average of 100 witnesses a year and 20 elect.
20 elect at 1800 years (average) = 360,000

Now this is just Dallas Texas I am speaking of. JW’s claim how many members “around the world” ? 6 million and 600,000!

There are maybe a few thousand here in Dallas alone. And yet, I have around 20 a year visit me???

Does Romans 9-11 ring a bell. You think God has just washed his hands of His original chosen people…a nation just like your supposed Judges in New York claim to be that “nation”.

We do not disagree there are context’s where worship does not mean worship but you stated it yourself:

I believe I know you pretty good. Not you per se but your organization. You see I have read literally thousands of pages in just your literature alone. I have spent probably an average of over fifty hours discussing with witnesses at my house and abroad even at times in their own domain (kingdom halls) not to debate but to inquire. I have likewise read the amount of pages and spent about as many hours on the opposing side to get a fair balance. I did not like most people do on “my” side try to find out the witnesses from “my” side of literature for that would not have been a fair treatment.
In regard to worshipping Jehovah alone you are just following the apostate Jews. You interpret Romans 10 that if you call upon the Name of Jehovah you will be saved. However Paul is applying the Name to Jesus. For in Acts 4 we read that there is NO OTHER NAME BY WHICH MAN MUST BE SAVED! The Watchtower is inferring the Name YHWH in the Roman text. Now the original quote of Paul here is indeed the Name of YHWH when discussing the passage of the OT. However Paul was speaking Greek to a Greek Church and was using the Name of Jesus. If you keep it in context following Paul’s sermon from Romans 1 you will see the passage is referring to Jesus and not Jehovah. The Jews agree with you here sir. YHWH is to be glorified but YHWH did not die for He cannot die. He sent His Son to die so that through the Son (John 14:6) we could come to Him. So you cannot skip the Son and go to Jehovah. Are the Jews saved? Do they not glorify (the Orthodox Jews mind you) Jehovah/Yahweh (correctly transliterated…there is a w not a v). Do you not realize that an Orthodox Jewish child has the Torah memorized by the age of ten? All in the Name of Yahweh!

So I ask you, who is saved here sir? I believe the rhetorical question answers itself.

October 6, 2006 at 5:15 pm#30172

Participant

I REPLIED AGAIN TO THIS BECAUSE THE FIRST WORKS DID NOT MAKE FOR EASIER FOLLOWING ALONG.

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Is your religion “right” Casey? Which religious background exactly are you from?

I hold to the Five Points of Calvin – TULIP which I will not go into due to the indepth and inexhaustable works already done on them and it would take WAAAAAAAAAAAY too long to cover it.

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The “work” I was clearly speaking of was the global witness that Jesus fortold, the witness about God's kingdom which really only one group on earth is unitedly doing. (mat 24:14.)

Well since you pointed out my spelling errors here is the same: foretold – (cheap shot isn't it sir?)
You make a HUGE PRESUMPTION here! ONE GROUP!!!!!!!!!! You need to get out more and wake up and see that your disdain for your term that witnesses always imply Christendom is laboring and reaping the harvest!

Quote
I could not have said it better myself. His “ignorance” of the JW teaching leaves him in an unknown position and in my opinion not as equipped to give a review of the NWT.

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Is this “CERTAINLY” true, or isn't it? Let me guess. It's true when it's a scholar in your favor. Right? Doesn't that seem ….

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If the NWT is “hyper-literal” or excessively literal, as you seem to agree to, because you knock it down because of this, and if the NASB is the “most literal translation,” doesn't logic suggest that the NASB is even more excessively “hyper” literal? Think about what you said.

I you recall what I actually said was this sir:

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To have a “hyper-literal” translation makes a grammatically incorrect rendering, not following the rules of translating from one language to another. The most literal translation would be the NASB, which at times would be considered “wooden” but never awkward. For instance if you said “gracias” (thank you) I would say “de nada” (your welcome). A hyper literal would be “of nothing” not “your welcome” which does not make any sense at all sir.

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so your:

doesn't logic suggest that the NASB is even more excessively “hyper” literal? Think about what you said.

What it proves, CASEY, is that the NWT uses the most basic word to describe proskyneo, rather than picking and choosing where it should be “worship” or “bowed down” or “honoured.”
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You made the comment the NWT states “obesiance to” and I say so what? What does that prove. You asked if witnesses are supposed to just quote from the NWT but then just quote from the NWT…circular reasoning.

It uses “worship” with reference to God Almighty, and uses “worship” in places where what the person doing was clearly wrong, hence, clearly something that only Jehovah was worthy of

…and yet you nonchalantly passed over:

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How can you reconcile these two factors is beyond me. Maybe your view is just as “mysterious” as the Trinity? Worship is in reference to God Almighty but then use you say:

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‘and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus’

I say:

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Just to be fair I included my misspelled word to not cut and edit as I saw fit.
But then you say:

Quote

Now this is just Dallas Texas I am speaking of. JW’s claim how many members “around the world” ? 6 million and 600,000!

There are maybe a few thousand here in Dallas alone. And yet, I have around 20 a year visit me???

You say:

Quote

Does Romans 9-11 ring a bell. You think God has just washed his hands of His original chosen people…a nation just like your supposed Judges in New York claim to be that “nation”.

You say:

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We do not disagree there are context’s where worship does not mean worship but you stated it yourself:

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You say:

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You must render “sacred service”…hence your “hyper”-ness literal! What would you render the phrase “sacred service”?

So I ask you, who is saved here sir? I believe the rhetorical question answers itself.

October 6, 2006 at 5:47 pm#30176

Participant

Hi Casey,
You said
'I believe once a person has been born again by the Spirit of God that person is sealed unto the Day of Redemption for God cannot deny Himself”
True but we also need to be reborn of water.

Jn 3
” 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ”

as was shown by the reaction of Peter when the friends of Cornelius were reborn in the Spirit.

Acts 10
“46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

The book of Romans was written to the saved so Romans 10 does not describe for us an alternative way to that shown by the apostles in Acts. What Peter said at Pentecost is still the truth.

Acts 2
” 37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.”

JW's try to show by works their adherence to God.
If they showed more loyalty to the Master than their leaders they would be in a safer place

October 6, 2006 at 6:19 pm#30178