JEHOVAH

Participant

Hi S,
There is none.
It is YWHW with human additions.

February 15, 2009 at 1:51 am#121605

Participant

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The name “Jehovah” is a name that seems to be introduced
at the beginning of the Exodus.

Um. No. While it appears in the KJ about 4 times, God's name is in the manuscripts thousands and thousands of times. It occurs a couple hundred times in Genesis.

Most Bible's follow the tradition of removing God's name or only including it in a few selected Verses, as does the KJ. When you see “LORD” or “GOD” in capital letters in some Bibles, that is indicating where God's name should be.

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The Jews apparently had such reverence for the name they would not even speak it.

Right, and that misunderstanding of the command is what lead to God's name being lost. Is it reverence when you take something and hide it from other people? The Bible writers certainly didn't do this. The Jews who came afterward did.

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What is the sacred mystery of this name JEHOVAH?

Jewish superstition over the command to hold God's name with respect. But they disrespect it by taking it too far.

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There was a time that Abraham, Issac, and Jacob did not know Him that way.

Exo 6:3 KJV And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAHwas I not known to them.

God's name has meaning—“he causes to become.” They knew his name. They didn't understand perhaps the meaning behind the name–which he would make known to them.

As for your original question–Jehovah Almighty is the only one that can with certainty cause anything to become a reality. Man cannot do this. When Jehovah says he'll do something, it is already as good as done. He is the only true God, the only true “mighty one” in that he has no limit to his mightiness.

david

February 15, 2009 at 1:55 am#121606

Participant

JOEL 2:32
“And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.””

Quoting the above scripture:

ACTS 2:21
“And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’”

ROMANS 10:13
“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.””

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Why is it important to know Him as “JEHOVAH”?

It does seem important.

February 15, 2009 at 3:06 am#121613

Participant

david,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
David,

Can you share your understanding of what is meant by the name “Jehovah” in these two verses as the writer uses it in the context –

Psa 83:17-18 KJV Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame,and perish: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH,art the most high over all the earth.

Exo 6:3 KJV And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Is it your understanding that in this verse Paul is speaking of other than Jesus and that “kurios” should be rendered “Jehovah”?

Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Quote

Quote
The name “Jehovah” is a name that seems to be introduced
at the beginning of the Exodus.

Sorry I wasn't clear on this. By “introduced” I did not mean,
never mentioned before, but rather introduced to Abraham,
Isaac, Jacob in a way that was not known before to them.

Right, and that misunderstanding of the command is what lead to God's name being lost.

Can you share what the right understanding of the command was and what the command was please.

david

David thank you for sharing the above understanding of His name. Quite encouraging!

Seeking

February 15, 2009 at 4:07 pm#121640

Cindy

Participant

Seeking

If I may ad to this.

Psa 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

In my “King James” Bible, the Ryrie study bible, the meaning of the name is given as, “The self existing one”. That again implies that Jehovah God is “immortal”, and “eternal”; That of course no one else can claim. God, without referring to the Almighty God, is just a “Elohim”, a strong one, or mighty one; we would today call them, foreman, supervisor, manager, or simply “Boss”.
Another title used in the OT, in the original text is “Adonai”, meaning “Lord”, but again, unless “LORD” capitalized, it could refer to any one.
God did not give his name to the Israelites until after Moses received the Law, the ten commandments. And it was for the third commandment, that the Scribes, in charge of copying the scriptures, omitted the name “Jehovah”, out of reverence, and fear of using the Lords name in vain.

Exd 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

As david already mentioned, the name “Jehovah” was replaced with “the LORD”.
According to the foot notes in my Bible, the name occurs 6823 times in the OT.

Georg

February 15, 2009 at 5:09 pm#121644

Participant

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Is it your understanding that in this verse Paul is speaking of other than Jesus and that “kurios” should be rendered “Jehovah”?

Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

It and Acts are unquestionably a direct quotation from Joel. Would the Bible writers change the quotation? Or did the superstitious Jews who came later change the quotation? We know that they changed the Hebrew scriptures (substituting LORD and GOD). But the NT was written on stuff that was more perishable. We don't have manuscripts that can prove this. But it's highly unlikely in my mind that they would change the quote. It doesn't make sense that God's name would be used thousands of times (about 6000) and then suddenly stop being used in the Greek scriptures.

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Sorry I wasn't clear on this. By “introduced” I did not mean,
never mentioned before, but rather introduced to Abraham,
Isaac, Jacob in a way that was not known before to them.

Right, sorry.

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Can you share what the right understanding of the command was and what the command was please.

It's the third commandment in the law covenant.

Encyclopaedia Judaica states:
“The avoidance of pronouncing the name YHWH . . . was caused by a misunderstanding of the Third Commandment (Ex. 20:7; Deut. 5:11) as meaning ‘Thou shalt not take the name of YHWH thy God in vain,’ whereas it really means ‘You shall not swear falsely by the name of YHWH your God.’”

The text does not forbid ‘taking up’ or pronouncing God’s name. However, even if it meant taking God’s name “in vain,” note what the Hebrew lexicon by Koehler and Baumgartner states regarding the Hebrew term translated “in vain” (Hebrew, lash·shaw′’): “name a name without reason . . . misuse a name.”

This commandment does not forbid the use of God’s name but, rather, its misuse.

Some say it's too holy to be pronounced. But does it not seem reasonable that if God viewed his name as too holy for men to pronounce, he would not have revealed it in the first place? The very fact that in the original text of the Hebrew Scriptures, God’s personal name appears over 6,800 times shows that he wants men to know him and to use his name.

The prophet Isaiah showed clearly what God’s will is in this matter when he stated: “Praise the LORD [Hebrew, = יהוה YHWH = Jehovah], proclaim His name. Make His deeds known among the peoples; declare that His name is exalted.”—Isaiah 12:4. See also Micah 4:5; Malachi 3:16; Psalm 79:6; 105:1; Proverbs 18:10.

February 15, 2009 at 5:15 pm#121645

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament

Participant

Regarding “Jehovah” in the NT.

It states:
“During recent decades, though, a number of very ancient manuscrpits have been discovered using some form of the Tetragrammaton into the Greek text.[2] As a matter of fact, the oldest extant copies of the Greek Old Testament include the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew or Greek. Similarly, a newer thesis has been proposed that the pious Jewish authors of the New Testament used the revered name YHWH and did not replace it with a surrogate like “Lord”. As a result, the Tetragrammaton was present in the New Testament autographs. Later on it was substituted by the nomina sacra.”

It should also be noted that for some reason , they didn't change or remove the Jah, or Yah (shortened poetic form of the name) found in Revelation. It's in the expression halleluiyah, which when translated into English and not transliterated means “praise Jah.”

February 15, 2009 at 10:44 pm#121686

Participant

David,

Thank you again for the candid discussion. It is refreshing and thought provoking.

I am clear now that you meant by “misunderstood command”
applying an undo sanctity, so to speak, including prohibitions regarding the name that Jehovah never intended.

I would agree without reservation.

If I may condense your reply to this question

Is it your understanding that in this verse Paul is speaking of other than Jesus and that “kurios” should be rendered “Jehovah”?

Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

I understand you to be saying Paul wrote to call on Jehovah God for salvation not at all meaning Jesus. Am I correct?

If I may backtrack to this scripture –

Exo 6:3 KJV And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

What is your understanding as to what Jehovah meant by the bold text portion of the verse? As you mentioned, the name had been used quite often prior. What were they not understanding?

Thanks again!

Seeking

February 16, 2009 at 3:24 am#121702

Participant

Quote (david @ Feb. 15 2009,12:55)

Quoting the above scripture:

ACTS 2:21
“And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’”

ROMANS 10:13
“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.””

Quote

Why is it important to know Him as “JEHOVAH”?

It does seem important.

Hi S,
The JWs have added the extra letters to the holy name YHWH whereever the name of our God appears thinking that it is a personal name.

February 16, 2009 at 5:19 am#121705

Participant

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The JWs have added

Completely wrong, once again, Nick. But you're only off by 400 years or so this time.

February 16, 2009 at 5:26 am#121706

Participant

Quote

If I may condense your reply to this question

Is it your understanding that in this verse Paul is speaking of other than Jesus and that “kurios” should be rendered “Jehovah”?

Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

JOEL 2:30-32
““And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And IT MUST OCCUR THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF JEHOVAH WILL GET AWAY SAFE; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.””

ACTS 2:16-21
“On the contrary, this is what WAS SAID THROUGH THE PROPHET JOEL, ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives. AND EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF JEHOVAH WILL BE SAVED.”’”
(The same goes for Romans.)

Do you think the inspired Bible writers would have changed this quote, and removed God's name–the name God inspired to originally be in the Bible some 7000 times?
If you authored a book about yourself and someone removed your name and replaced it with “sir” in each spot, how would you feel?

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As you mentioned, the name had been used quite often prior. What were they not understanding?

The meaning behind God's name is “he who causes to become.” These patriarchs used the divine name and received promises from Jehovah. Yet, they did not know or experience Jehovah as the one who caused these promises to become fulfilled.—Genesis 12:1, 2; 15:7, 13-16; 26:24; 28:10-15.

February 16, 2009 at 5:58 am#121718

Participant

“I am Jehovah. And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.” (Ex 6:2, 3)

Since the name Jehovah was used many times by those patriarchal ancestors of Moses, it is evident that God meant that he manifested himself to them in the capacity of Jehovah only in a limited way. To illustrate this, those who had known the man Abram could hardly be said to have really known him as Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”) while he had but one son, Ishmael. When Isaac and other sons were born and began producing offspring, the name Abraham took on greater meaning or import. So, too, the name Jehovah would now take on expanded meaning for the Israelites.

To “know,” therefore, does not necessarily mean merely to be acquainted with or cognizant of something or someone. The foolish Nabal knew David’s name but still asked, “Who is David?” in the sense of asking, “What does he amount to?” (1Sa 25:9-11; compare 2Sa 8:13.) So, too, Pharaoh had said to Moses: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (Ex 5:1, 2) By that, Pharaoh evidently meant that he did not know Jehovah as the true God or as having any authority over Egypt’s king and his affairs, nor as having any might to enforce His will as announced by Moses and Aaron. But now Pharaoh and all Egypt, along with the Israelites, would come to know the real meaning of that name, the person it represented. As Jehovah showed Moses, this would result from God’s carrying out His purpose toward Israel, liberating them, giving them the Promised Land, and thereby fulfilling His covenant with their forefathers. In this way, as God said, “You will certainly know that I am Jehovah your God.”—Ex 6:4-8

HERE IS HOW THEY GOT TO “KNOW” JEHOVAH (He causes to become.)

–Abraham and his favored descendants Isaac and Jacob came to know God as Almighty in power. (Ex 6:3)
–As their “shield,” he protected them and their families from the mighty ones of earth. (Ge 12:14-20; 14:13-20; 15:1; 20:1-18; 26:26-29; Ps 105:7-15)
–The birth of Isaac to aged parents demonstrated that nothing is “too extraordinary for Jehovah.” (Ge 18:14; 21:1-3)
–God prospered his servants; he carried them through times of famine. (Ge 12:10; 13:1, 2; 26:1-6, 12, 16; 31:4-13)
–As “the Judge of all the earth,” Jehovah executed sentence on the infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, while preserving the life of faithful Lot and his daughters, doing so out of consideration for Abraham, his friend. (Ge 18:25; 19:27-29; Jas 2:23)
–With good reason these men had strong faith not only that God is alive but also that he is the powerful “rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Heb 11:6)
–Abraham, when called upon to sacrifice his beloved son, had sound basis for trusting in God’s ability to raise up Isaac even from the dead.—Heb 11:17-19; Ge 17:7, 8.

February 16, 2009 at 6:04 am#121719

Participant

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What is the sacred mystery of this name JEHOVAH?

While ancient Hebrew was an everyday spoken language, this presented no problem. The pronunciation of the Name was familiar to the Israelites and when they saw it in writing they supplied the vowels without thinking (just as, for an English reader, the abbreviation “Ltd.” represents “Limited” and “bldg.” represents “building”).

Two things happened to change this situation. First, a superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong to say the divine name out loud; so when they came to it in their Bible reading they uttered the Hebrew word ’Adho·nai′ (“Sovereign Lord”). Further, as time went by, the ancient Hebrew language itself ceased to be spoken in everyday conversation, and in this way the original Hebrew pronunciation of God’s name was eventually forgotten.

In order to ensure that the pronunciation of the Hebrew language as a whole would not be lost, Jewish scholars of the second half of the first millennium C.E. invented a system of points to represent the missing vowels, and they placed these around the consonants in the Hebrew Bible. Thus, both vowels and consonants were written down, and the pronunciation as it was at that time was preserved.

When it came to God’s name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say ’Adho·nai′. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God’s name from the Hebrew original.

February 16, 2009 at 6:06 am#121720

Participant

I'm guessing no one will read this, except maybe Seeking, but this concerns God's name in the NT. I find this subject quite interesting. The following is taken from a booklet entitled: “The Divine Name.” (It's also interesting how the removal of God's name from the Bible in general has really made the trinity doctrine easier to accept.)

God’s Name and the “New Testament”

THE position of God’s name is unshakable in the Hebrew Scriptures, the “Old Testament.” Although the Jews eventually stopped pronouncing it, their religious beliefs prevented them from removing the name when they made copies of older manuscripts of the Bible. Hence, the Hebrew Scriptures contain God’s name more often than any other name.

With the Christian Greek Scriptures, the “New Testament,” the situation is different. Manuscripts of the book of Revelation (the last book of the Bible) have God’s name in its abbreviated form, “Jah,” (in the word “Hallelujah”). But apart from that, no ancient Greek manuscript that we possess today of the books from Matthew to Revelation contains God’s name in full. Does that mean that the name should not be there? That would be surprising in view of the fact that Jesus’ followers recognized the importance of God’s name, and Jesus taught us to pray for God’s name to be sanctified. So what happened?

To understand this, remember that the manuscripts of the Christian Greek Scriptures that we possess today are not the originals. The actual books written by Matthew, Luke and the other Bible writers were well used and quickly wore out. Hence, copies were made, and when those wore out, further copies were made of those copies. This is what we would expect, since the copies were usually made to be used, not preserved.

There are thousands of copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures in existence today, but most of them were made during or after the fourth century of our Common Era. This suggests a possibility: Did something happen to the text of the Christian Greek Scriptures before the fourth century that resulted in the omission of God’s name? The facts prove that something did.

The Name Was There

We can be sure that the apostle Matthew included God’s name in his Gospel. Why? Because he wrote it originally in Hebrew. In the fourth century, Jerome, who translated the Latin Vulgate, reported: “Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language . . . Who translated it after that in Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Moreover, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea.”

Since Matthew wrote in Hebrew, it is inconceivable that he did not use God’s name, especially when quoting from parts of the “Old Testament” that contained the name. However, other writers of the second part of the Bible wrote for a worldwide audience in the international language of that time, Greek. Hence, they did not quote from the original Hebrew writings but from the Septuagint Greek version. And even Matthew’s Gospel was eventually translated into Greek. Would God’s name have appeared in these Greek writings?

Well, some very old fragments of the Septuagint Version that actually existed in Jesus’ day have survived down to our day, and it is noteworthy that the personal name of God appeared in them. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Volume 2, page 512) says: “Recent textual discoveries cast doubt on the idea that the compilers of the LXX [Septuagint] translated the tetragrammaton YHWH by kyrios. The oldest LXX MSS (fragments) now available to us have the tetragrammaton written in Heb[rew] characters in the G[ree]k text. This custom was retained by later Jewish translators of the O[ld] T[estament] in the first centuries A.D.” Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name.

Thus, Professor George Howard, of the University of Georgia, U.S.A., made this comment: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.” (Biblical Archaeology Review, March 1978, page 14) What authority would they have had to do otherwise?

God’s name remained in Greek translations of the “Old Testament” for a while longer. In the first half of the second century C.E., the Jewish proselyte Aquila made a new translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, and in this he represented God’s name by the Tetragrammaton in ancient Hebrew characters. In the third century, Origen wrote: “And in the most accurate manuscripts THE NAME occurs in Hebrew characters, yet not in today’s Hebrew [characters], but in the most ancient ones.”

Even in the fourth century, Jerome writes in his prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings: “And we find the name of God, the Tetragrammaton ,]יהוה[in certain Greek volumes even to this day expressed in ancient letters.”

The Removal of the Name
By this time, however, the apostasy foretold by Jesus had taken shape, and the name, although appearing in manuscripts, was used less and less. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29, 30) Eventually, many readers did not even recognize what it was and Jerome reports that in his time “certain ignorant ones, because of the similarity of the characters, when they would find [the Tetragrammaton] in Greek books, were accustomed to read ΠΙΠΙ.”

In later copies of the Septuagint, God’s name was removed and words like “God” (The·os′) and “Lord” (Ky′ri·os) were substituted. We know that this happened because we have early fragments of the Septuagint where God’s name was included and later copies of those same parts of the Septuagint where God’s name has been removed.

The same thing occurred in the “New Testament,” or Christian Greek Scriptures. Professor George Howard goes on to say: “When the Hebrew form for the divine name was eliminated in favor of Greek substitutes in the Septuagint, it was eliminated also from the New Testament quotations of the Septuagint. . . . Before long the divine name was lost to the Gentile church except insofar as it was reflected in the contracted surrogates or remembered by scholars.”

Hence, while Jews refused to pronounce God’s name, the apostate Christian church managed to remove it completely from Greek language manuscripts of both parts of the Bible, as well as from other language versions.

The Need for the Name
Eventually, as we saw earlier, the name was restored to many translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. But what about the Greek Scriptures? Well, Bible translators and students came to realize that without God’s name, some parts of the Christian Greek Scriptures are very difficult to understand properly. Restoring the name is a big help in increasing the clarity and comprehensibility of this portion of the inspired Bible.

For example, consider the words of Paul to the Romans, as they appear in the Authorized Version: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13) Whose name do we have to call on to be saved? Since Jesus is often spoken of as “Lord,” and one scripture even says: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,” should we conclude that Paul was here speaking about Jesus?—Acts 16:31, Authorized Version.

No, we should not. A marginal reference to Romans 10:13 in the Authorized Version points us to Joel 2:32 in the Hebrew Scriptures. If you check that reference, you will find that Paul was actually quoting the words of Joel in his letter to the Romans; and what Joel said in the original Hebrew was: “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe.” (New World Translation) Yes
, Paul meant here that we should call on the name of Jehovah. Hence, while we have to believe in Jesus, our salvation is closely linked with a proper appreciation of God’s name.

This example demonstrates how the removal of the name of God from the Greek Scriptures contributed to confusing Jesus and Jehovah in the minds of many. Undoubtedly, it contributed greatly to the development of the doctrine of the Trinity!

Should the Name Be Restored?
Would a translator have any right to restore the name, in view of the fact that existing manuscripts do not have it? Yes, he would have that right. Most Greek lexicons recognize that often the word “Lord” in the Bible refers to Jehovah. For example, in its section under the Greek word Ky′ri·os (“Lord”), Robinson’s A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament (printed in 1859) says that it means “God as the Supreme Lord and sovereign of the universe, usually in Sept[uagint] for Heb[rew] יהוה Jehovah.” Hence, in places where the Christian Greek Scripture writers quote the earlier Hebrew Scriptures, the translator has the right to render the word Ky′ri·os as “Jehovah” wherever the divine name appeared in the Hebrew original.

Many translators have done this. Starting at least from the 14th century, numerous Hebrew translations were made of the Christian Greek Scriptures. What did the translators do when they came to quotations from the “Old Testament” where God’s name appeared? Often, they felt forced to restore God’s name to the text. Many translations of parts or all of the Christian Greek Scriptures into Hebrew contain God’s name.

Translations into modern languages, particularly those used by missionaries, have followed this example. Thus many African, Asian, American and Pacific-island language versions of the Greek Scriptures use the name Jehovah liberally, so that readers can clearly see the difference between the true God and the false ones. The name has appeared, too, in versions in European languages.

One translation that boldly restores God’s name with good authority is the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. This version, currently available in 11 modern languages, including English, has restored God’s name every time that a portion of the Hebrew Scriptures containing it is quoted in the Greek Scriptures. Altogether, the name appears with a sound basis 237 times in that translation of the Greek Scriptures.

Opposition to the Name

In spite of the efforts of many translators to restore God’s name in the Bible, there has always been religious pressure to eliminate it. The Jews, while leaving it in their Bibles, refused to pronounce it. Apostate Christians of the second and third centuries removed it when they made copies of Greek Bible manuscripts and left it out when they made translations of the Bible. Translators in modern times have removed it, even when they based their translations on the original Hebrew, where it appears almost 7,000 times. (It appears 6,973 times in the Hebrew text of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, 1984 edition.)

How does Jehovah view those who remove his name from the Bible? If you were an author, how would you feel about someone who went to great lengths to remove your name from the book you authored? Translators who object to the name, doing so on account of problems of pronunciation or because of Jewish tradition, might be compared to those who Jesus said “strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!” (Matthew 23:24) They stumble over these smaller problems but end up creating a major problem—by removing the name of the greatest personage in the universe from the book that he inspired.

The psalmist wrote: “How long, O God, will the adversary keep reproaching? Will the enemy keep treating your name with disrespect forever?”—Psalm 74:10.

February 16, 2009 at 12:59 pm#121732

Participant

Excuse my double posting. See next post. Sorry all.

Seeking

February 16, 2009 at 1:25 pm#121733

Participant

David,

I appreciate your in depth research, and you are correct, I did read it.

If I may condense your reply to this question

Is it your understanding that in this verse Paul is speaking of other than Jesus and that “kurios” should be rendered “Jehovah”?

Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

I conclude your one word answer would be “yes.”

It is the context of Romans ten that keeps me wondering.

Paul begins by speaking of the Gentiles zeal without knowledge, v.2. Paul moves on to then introduce Christ, v.4.
Paul says this in v.9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved. KJV

Rom 10:9 ESV because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Allowing that your correct about a later substitution of kurios for Jehovah, this would then read from the KJV

confess Jehovah Jesus

or from the ESV

that Jesus is Jehovah

It seems unquestionable in the context that Paul was speaking of Jesus. Further, if your right about the name substitution, Paul says more about Jesus than I had seen previously.

I'll keep digging on this. Thanks for opening up what could be
even deeper truth about Jesus.

Seeking

February 16, 2009 at 7:52 pm#121754

Participant

Hi S,
1Cor8
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords [2962]many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord [2962] Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Number 2962
Transliteration:
kurios {koo'-ree-os}
Word Origin:
from kuros (supremacy)
TDNT:
3:1039,486
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
Lord 667, lord 54, master 11, sir 6, Sir 6, misc 4

Total: 748
Definition:
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants salute their master
this title is given to: God, the Messiah For Synonyms see entry 5830

February 16, 2009 at 7:57 pm#121755

Participant

Hi,
http://www.yhwh.com/jehovah.htm

February 17, 2009 at 12:29 am#121779