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I myself have been convinced in the unsoundness of the trinity theology and your site has convinced me that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God.
The story of Joseph is a great analogy for the relationship between God and his son. Joseph was give the power of Pharaoh by Pharaoh, but Joseph was still subject to Pharaoh.
Having said all that my question is what do I do? Should I approach my pastor with this? I’m a member of a church and have signed a doctrinal statement that includes the trinity. I’m certain I will have to leave the church. And what makes difficult is that my wife and children are member of the church and her conclusion is to leave it alone.
I need fellowship with other believers, but it will be difficult to find a church that does not push the trinity doctrine.Any suggestions?
Godfrey.
First of all, I think that it would be wise to see that denominations are organisations that were created by men. They are not the Church. There is only one Church, the Body of Christ and we who are saved are the living stones that are fitted together under the Head, which is Jesus Christ. The Church is a spiritual body, not a physical building or organisation used to house those who are unified under a man made creed.
We need to see the true Church in our midst and we need to be in unity and constant fellowship. If we can see this, then we will no longer say, ‘I am going to Church’. We will know that we are the Church where ever we go and we will care nothing for the organisations of men.
The denomination that you and your family have signed up for, means nothing to God. What really matters is the people who you fellowship with. The true church is made up of many parts and all the parts take their instruction from the Head. We are all connected to each other part by our relationships to the head first and then the other parts.
Now if you can see the true Body of Christ, then what will matter is your relationship to your brothers and sisters. So your attitude should still be that of laying your lives down for your brothers and sisters and serving them with a humble heart.
Those that believe in the trinity, also believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for them. Many are Spirit lead, yet we can still be decieved. No one is perfect yet, so we need to allow Christ to perfect us, and we need to be tolerant toward those that are still being perfected, which is all of us.
My advise is first of all to hear from God. Jesus said that my sheep here my voice and will not listen to the voice of another. Secondly, you need to be wise with regards to the relationships you have with the believers that go to that denomination, these realtionships are important. Thirdly, I would suggest that you live with the understanding that denominations are man made and instead serve Christ and the Body, not the system built by men.
Remember that you have been set free and you can live free from the denomination, yet be connected by relationships to those that belong to God and who also happen to fellowship in the name of a denomination.
When you start to see with the eyes of your heart, you can then do the right thing without fear.
The right thing to do is what God wants you to do.
God may want you to stay and just shine his light for those people to benefit from the truth in your heart. God may want you to fellowship instead in homes like they did in the first century. Or perhaps he would want you to talk to the Pastor of that Denomination and challenge him. All I can say is that you need to be wise. You can destroy your relationships immediately if you don’t do this God’s way.Even if God wants you to not do anything about it and to just continue on as you have done in the past. God does want you to shine the truth in your heart. You have to be careful who you give the treasure to however. For it is not wise to let people trample on the truth, but rather reveal it to those who will treat truth with respect, lest we pass judgement on them. Be wise with who you talk to and make sure that you are like Jesus, who only did and said things that his Father did. Jesus didn’t go around saying to everyone, I am the Son of God. He confirmed that truth to those who the Father had already revealed it to.
So should you continue to go to the Denomination. Well it’s a bit like saying, should I continue to go to the Library. Both are made by man, and it is not a sin to go to the library. But God may or may not want you to go the library, he may have something else for you to do.
Remember Jesus taught at the synagogue and many who attended were enemies of God. It wasn’t so much the synagogue that was important, but the people who came to listen to the Word of God.
I myself have fellowshipped at a number of denominations and I currently do not at the moment. What matters to me is fellowship with my brothers and sisters whenever and wherever. If they happen to go to a denomination, then I am free to go there too. But in truth, the denomination means nothing to me and I will not do anything in the name of a denomination. Only in the name of Jesus Christ will we have reward. Jesus said that a glass of water given in his name would not lose it’s reward.
There was a time when I beleived in the trintiy doctrine because that is what I was taught and in my ignorance I just assumed that it was correct. Yet God still worked in my life and and he regularly gave me visions and revelations. He did challenge me on the doctrine of the trinity earlier on in my life, but I got a very bad reaction from my friends when I bought it up. It was another 10 years before I really looked at it and compared it to scripture. My point here is that the Spirit of God is constantly leading us to Truth, but God still works in our lives even if we do not respond sometimes. So if God still works in our lives then perhaps we should too and we should have the same patience that he has.
I hope this helps. I haven’t given you a specific, except to do what God wants you to do, and that is not up to me to dictate. But I pray that you are lead by the Spirit of God in this matter and that God uses you because of your love for the truth.
Thank you t8 very much for your reply. I has helped me to understand that in essence we must be lead by the Spirit in all we do. And I do pray that I will be lead and guided in this way.
I do however have a moral dilemma in that the doctrinal statement that I signed upon church membership states that if my doctrinal beliefs change I must make this know to the leadership.
In addition I’ve been in the evanaglism ministry and I’m currently teaching Sunday school. In both cases the gospel is presented with a trinity based belief. I find it difficult to present this with a clear conscience when I know different. I think this alone has solidified what I must do and that is to discretely speak to my Pastor.
I will keep you posted in the New Year. BTW I’m in Toronto, Canada – found you site by doing a search on trinity.
Thanks again and God Bless.
GL.Yes it sounds like you have an obligation.
Maybe you can give the Pastor some scriptures as to why you do not believe the trinity doctrine and ask him to explain them or to ask God about them.eg: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.If the pastor is a reasonable man, he will at least check them out and hopefully he will understand that your motive is to seek the truth.
Hi gl,
If you are confused with trinity, try visit these websites http://www.the godhead.com or www. apostolic.net. these sites will help you understand the Godhead.
Goodluck.
ethan,
Thanks for the site. I just skimmed the title page and have already reject this concept. A paragraph on the site states "Jesus alone is God and only He can be worshipped as God." While the bible state "1 Cor 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."
There is definitely a contradiction, who am I to believe?BTW: To anyone who is interested, I did approach one on my pastors on this subject and was told I need to study the subject more and was give a theology book on the Trinity, with a Trinity slant. But in all the reading I’ve been doing no source can give an adequate rebuttal to 1 Cor 8:6.
GL.
I would also have to agree with gl and disagree with ethan’s site. There is one God and Father (Yahweh) and one Lord, Jesus (Yahshua) Messiah.
God Bless
gl/Ramblinrose,
Hi, Thanks for visisting the websites. I guess you don’t read the content of these websites but for your benefit I’ll give you an overview why we believe Jesus is the Only one God of this Universe.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Jesus Himself is the Father, the God of Israel in the old Testament, who was, who is and is to come the Almighty.
Is there two Almighty? two Father? two God? two throne in Heaven? two Alpha and Omega? NOOOOOOO..
There is only throne, and one sat on the throne He is Jesus, the Alpha and Omega, the everlasting Father, the Almighty God, the God of Israel.
JESUS IS THE NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME, AND EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW.
The Bible says Only God will be worship, If Jesus is not God, why the Apostles worship Him?
Jesus said in Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
If He is only a man and not God How can He be the Beginning and the end, who comes first the Father or Jesus? Jesus the Father is the First.
Thomas called Him "My Lord and my God".
Only God can forgive sins and Jesus forgive sins.
Isiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa. 35:4 “Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. “
Isia. 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
On these verses, The Father is refering the time of Jesus
God (Father) did not send anyone but He Himself came to this earth took a flesh, bone, and blood in the womb of Mary born in Betlehem called the Son of God (Jesus Christ). These flesh, bone and blood became a covering of the Glory of the Father so that man will not die while He was on this earth, and the same that suffered and died in the cross to pay for our sins.
Think of this, why is it the Bible speaks about Jesus Christ as the Son of God and not God the Son. God the Son refers to another God and this will contradict the Bible while the Son of God refers to the Human nature of God (flesh, bone and blood of God). God sent His Son (flesh, bone and blood) to the cross, for without His blood to be shed our sins will not be forgiven.
Heb. 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb. 9:22 “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. “
I Tim. 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. “
Col. 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. “
Rev. 1:8 ”I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”
I John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. “
John 5:43 “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.”
Jesus has a dual nature, Man and GOD. As man he is the offspring of david, as God He is the root.
Rev. 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star",
If you’re interested try to read this Article: THE ONENESS OF GOD.
<a href="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Top.htmThere” target=”_blank”>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepag….p>There is only one God and His name is Jesus
ethan,
t8 has admirable addressed elsewhere this forum a number of the scripture you’ve mentioned. But I have notice that you did not address 1 Cor 8:6, there is just no getting around it.
I’m at the point where at least for myself the scripture becomes much clearer if there is one (Almighty)God, the Father and one Lord Jesus. I will even accept Jesus to be given the title of God but not the Most High or Almighty, since these titles are exclusive – there can only be one holder of that title otherwise the meaning becomes null and void. As t8 has explained numerous times God(theos) can be used for authority, judge, mighty men etc – so we must used the context to determine the intent.
GL
Ethan
I have posted before on the topic of the Alpha and Omega. If you go to page 3 of the Trinity you will find a reply to Ambassador for Christ from myself. To save me repeating please view that page.
When Jesus says ‘I and the Father are one’ this is in the same way that a husband and wife are one – they work together for a common goal. It doesn’t mean they are physically one. The disciples are also to be one with Christ as he is one with the father – by your thinking that would make the disciples also the Messiah and in turn God.
Many other entries you have made have been discussed on the Trinity site. I know it is a long read but it has also been very time consuming for those who have submitted to the forum. Please take the time to read through.
You quoted the following:
"The Bible says Only God will be worship, If Jesus is not God, why the Apostles worship Him? "
Please show me the scripture that says that. My understanding is that we should worship only one God, there is a big difference. Jesus was worshipped as the Son of God and as a King – not as God.
God Bless
To ethan,
(and hello to gl and Ramblinrose).Just thought I would throw this one in for good measure.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.This verse like many others shows authority/rank.
I also agree with gl and Ramblinrose, in that you should read the trinity forum first. This saves us all going round in circles. Once you have read it, you can then make posts based on agreements/disagreements or non-coverage of the material presented so far and yes it is a long read, but if you are truly seeking the truth, then it will be interesting in that it will at least challenge you.
You can click the 'Printable Version' button and the whole trinity forum from beginning to end will be formatted for printing. This way your eyes might last a bit longer.
The Truth shall set you free.
Thank you GL and T8, I’m so glad to hear what you have stated. If I may say this, that Jesus spoken to John the Baptise and Our Father spoke to all saying this is my son inwhich I am well pleased. and the Holy Spirit desended upon Jesus like a dove. Three in their own form of exisitance , in one location, fullfilling the truth.
God Bless , ThehappymanTo gl
I was wondering how you are going? How did your situation pan out?
I hope it all turned out for the better.t8,
Things have not progressed much further from last post. It so happened that the Pastor I approached was expecting a baby and before I could meet with her again the baby arrived. She is currently on maternity leave, so it may not be until another 6 mths before this subject is broached again.
I’ve resigned myself to peaceful co-existense, however if ever, when ever this doctrine is brought up I will state, in humility and love, the biblical reasons for my stance.
Your site has been very helpful in providing rebuttal for scripture that apparently claim Jesus is Almighty God. In my recent reading I came across "1 John 5:17 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
Some commentaries claim that this states that Jesus is God, what is your opinion?To gl
"1 John 5:17 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
This scripture is clear if you interpret it correctly. (brackets mine)
"1 John 5:17 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, that we may know Him who is true (Jesus has come to show us who the true God is, Yahweh); and we are in Him who is true (we are following the true God, Yahweh, that Yashua has shown us), in His Son Jesus Christ (how about adding ‘even’ at the beginning of this sentence as is so often done to clarify – so, we are following the true God and also following his son, who leads us to God). This is the true God and eternal life." (the God that Jesus teaches us about, Yahweh, is the true God who offers us eternal life).
Hope this helps.
God Bless
(Edited by Ramblinrose at 4:01 am on June 2, 2003)
(Edited by Ramblinrose at 4:03 am on June 2, 2003)
Ramblinrose,
The way you’ve broken this down makes sense. I think your technique of breaking thinks down and paraphrase opens up the meaning and clarifies any confusion. Thanks, I will endeavour to apply this for my own use, that’s if you don’t mind.
gl
I think your technique of breaking thinks down and paraphrase opens up the meaning and clarifies any confusion.
I agree, I think your way of looking at scripture is very logical and does show up the meaning clearly.
Don't let this compliment go to your head though.
GL and any others who are interested.
Christian Churches of God is a subordinate Unitarian church that keeps the Sabbath and full calendar of God. You can find our homepage below to begin your journey.
Although I agree with T8, I also know that if we can help it, we should not ‘forsake’ the assembling. We do that right here on the forum, to be sure, but there are physical elements of the church that have to be partaken in, such as the three feasts each year, being baptised, having your feet washed, etc, and taking the sacrament of the Lord’s supper. These are important elements of the faith that were given to all generations to perform in faithfulness, as the book of James explains faith and works. They go hand in hand.
I know for a fact GL that we have church members very close to and inside Toronto, and several more in Ontario. If you are being called into the body, the living temple, the communion of the saints, then CCG may be for you. Check us out, and when you’re ready, make your request know to the secretary or fill out the online request for fellowship, and someone will contact you.
Hope to see you at one of the feasts!
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