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December 9, 2007 at 8:52 pm#74374

Participant

Hi Im4,
I have faith that all can be saved.
Life is short and painful in parts and God uses circumstances at times to wake us out of our somnolence and shake us free of our false gods and false wisdom. So sharing today now may or may not plant seeds of use to others tomorrow.
Anger against them is never productive.
1Peter 2
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

17Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

December 9, 2007 at 9:28 pm#74376

TimothyVI

Participant

Hi Nick,

Quote

Hi Tim4,
The bible was written by the Spirit of God through men.
It cannot be seen as bound together without the anointing of that Spirit.
We do need to seek that anointing and in Christ must do so.

That may very well be true Nick.

Then it is obvious that very few Christians have
the anointing of the spirit. If they did we would not have hundreds and hundreds of
denominations of the Church. within the few devout Christians on this forum there is
very little that is agreed upon. Each person is certain that they alone have been given
the truth. That they alone are anointed.

I know, many are called and few are chosen.

Tim

December 9, 2007 at 10:46 pm#74382

942767

Participant

Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2007,09:24)

I have been off this site (mostly) for some time. I am not surprised that the arguments are still the same. The so called “proofs” people use are the same and nothing is changed or accomplished. I think there is a good reason for this. It is primarily due to the fact that scriptural proof has never worked to determine teaching. Because no one can agree or stick to an honest method to interpret scripture, all that is accomplished is opinion that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of the other party. I think there is an answer to part of this dilemma, though I doubt many have the guts to lay their doctrines on the alter to be truthfully tested. A secondary problem with the approach I am going to outline is that it requires a common sense approach. Most doctrinal people are not open to common sense.

A few points to consider —-
1. Character is the standard by which we gauge a persons motives and intentions toward God and man.
2. Scripture is not the standard by which we will be judged nor the standard by which our Godliness will be gauged. Christ is the standard and how much we become like Him is the measure of our Godliness. Not because Christ is God, but because Christ is our example and the pattern son. The pattern for us to follow. He clearly demonstrated perfected humanity. Humanity with the character of God developed in Him. He demonstrated the correct motives and intentions toward both God and man.

Simply put scriptural interpretation is subject, first and foremost, not to hermeneutical principles, preconceived ideas or opinions, but rather to the character and plan of God in Christ. When one formulates a teaching/doctrine, the every first test is that of functionality. How does it function or work to help me complete the plan of God in my life or demonstrate how to achieve the character of God in me. In other words, how does it help me be like Christ?

If one is to understand the plan of God from scripture it must be understood that God’s goal is to grow up sons and daughters like Christ. There are many Christians that sell the plan of God short by assuming that we can never really be like Christ or that it will be achieved in heaven and not on Earth. Most Christians cannot see really being like Christ because they think that means we can never sin. Sin is literally translated as missing the mark. Like an archer missing a target. Most sin is not inherently evil. (there are sins that are evil) Most sin is wrongly categorized as not living up to the standard of Christ in our behavior. Our behavior is based on our motives and intentions. The struggle then become one of changing our motive and intentions. Like Christ said “clean the inside of the cup first and the outside will clean itself”. Two people miss the mark. One is remorseful and commits to doing better. The other offers excuses, blames others, and is arrogant. Both have missed the mark (sin). One shows respect for his father’s torah the other tramples it underfoot. One shows maturity in attitude and is forgiven, the other shows lack of respect for his father words is immature and not forgiven. That which separate us from God is not behavior, but rather the attitude, motive or intention behind the behavior.

The very point of Christ death on the cross was to wipe out our sins. ALL OUR SINS PAST PRSENT AND FUTURE. Our sins are as far as the East from the west and are no longer the object of concern. Being free from sin allows us to concentrate on the more important task of becoming like Christ in our character. This is also confirmed by the correct understanding of the Torah. The Torah was a teaching tool with basic guidelines on how to behave. The word/Torah is a governor or tutor to bring us to Christ. In other words a tool to help us to learn to be like Christ in character. When a child broke the father’s Torah he was not punished but taught and counseled how to do it better the next time. Only when a child’s attitude was disrespectful was the child punished. When a child showed an attitude to learn and a Godly sorrow at failing to complete the Torah, he showed good character. His motives to please his father and intentions to continue to do so were pleasing to God. For as long as the child continues to show this character and attitude toward God, he is perfect. The more circumstances under which the child shows this “perfect” attitude the more wisdom he learns and the more mature he becomes.

Unfortunately most Churches do not teach character development, but rather become sin police and ignor the motives and intentions that lie benieth. Quick to correct, they bully the body into their personal standard of “Godliness” and never deal with the inner man. This is easy to do because it requires little or no discernment or individual Godly judgment. It only requires authority given by man and a preconceived carnal standard of Godliness.

Back to doctrines of Christ as human or God.
Christ learned obedience by what he suffered. He grew in stature before God and man.
Luke 2:52?And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

Hebrews 5:8?Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

We too go through this maturing process =
Ephesians 4:13?until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

1 Peter 2:21?[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

1 Peter 5:10?After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

As the above verse in 1 Peter confirms, we are to follow in Christ steps. If Christ is in any part God, one must ask the question, did Christ make his steps by virtue of his humanity or his deity?
If you say Christ did anything that we cannot do or if his accomplishments are in any way due to deity, then you have only a partial example. A partial example leaves the entire question open for debate as to which of Christ accomplishments we can duplicate. AND YET — We are told that we are to come to the stature of the fullness of Christ and not to the partial example of Christ. How about “Greater things shall Ye (us) do” Greater then a God?

The entire question of Christ as our example combined with Christ being in any part God does not fit within the functional plan of God. If Christ is God or dual natured then we can never come to the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Several questions a person should ask of a doctrine are these.
Does the doctrine contradict the attributes of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say that God can change from being a Spirit into something else? The one thing God cannot do is stop being God/Spirit.
Does the doctrine contradict the Character of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say or imply that God can sin? Does it conclude that Christ is fully God and fully man and can sin then God can sin?
Does the doctrine claim that Christ is our example and then make Christ into a Creature or position that we can never attain?

Hi Martian:

While it is true that as born again Christians, our goal is to become like Christ. The scriptures tell us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

How can we the church come into unity unless we discuss our differences, and pursue unity being willing to accept correction when through the scripture we are shown to be in error.

Quote

2Ti 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The problem, as I see it, is that most of us are set in what we believe already and we are not willing to concede that it is possible for us to be in error or we are not willing to accept correction because of pride.

In order to teach others it is necessary to understand the scriptures ourselves, otherwise, how can we teach what we do not know. Of course, if we do not have experiental knowledge in the Word of God, that is if we have not been striving to obey the example given by our Lord and if we have not made some mistakes along the way, we will not be able to teach effectively either. The Word of God is true, but if we do not have any experience in it, we really do not know what it means.

When all is said and done, we should join hands in prayer asking God to bring us into unity so that the world will see the love of God manifest through our lives so they may want to come and be reconciled to God.

Jesus prayed:

Quote

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

God Bless

December 10, 2007 at 4:46 am#74403

Proclaimer

Participant

If there are scriptures that appear to contradict, then it should be noted that some scriptures can be interpreted in a number of different ways, especially if you add a comma or do not.

The point is that the vast majority of scripture teaches the same thing and if we come across a verse that can say otherwise, then it would be wise to see if that verse was able to be read in different ways and if one of those ways agree with the other clearer verses on the same subject.

I find that this can actually be done and haven't yet found a scripture that completely contradicts other scriptures or proves that the scriptures are unreliable.

But if you come with a predefined man made creed, then you may be able to use some scriptures to back up what you are saying, but then you will trip up over others that cannot be twisted your way.

To me it is as simple as that.

If a person lets scripture teach them, then they have a chance. If a person is already taught (whatever) and uses scripture to back up their predefined teachings, then they are only using scripture to support their view, and not to challenge their view.

In other words, a man who starts with his own understanding and uses scripture, finishes with his own understanding. And if a man starts with scripture, then he has the best chance to understand scripture.

If we say that scripture is not good enough because you can quote another conflicting one, then you are really saying that the scriptures are not consistent with truth.

If everyone threw away the traditions of men, then they would be able to see much more clearly. Tradition will always blur what the scriptures are really saying.

It is really up to each individual person and in my experience, I see no doctrinal conflicts or scriptures that are at odds with each other. In fact I would go as far as to say that if scriptures were in conflict with each other, then I think that such a person should pray for wisdom so that he can rightly divide the word of God.

December 10, 2007 at 4:48 am#74404

Proclaimer

Participant

Hey, good post 942767.

December 10, 2007 at 7:18 am#74411

Stu

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2007,17:33)

Hi Stu,
Where do you learn your morals and ethics
and why bother if there are no consequences?

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=8;t=1591

Is a thread that t8 started, where I have posted some answers to this.

Stuart

December 10, 2007 at 8:07 am#74418

IM4Truth

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 10 2007,07:52)