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I have been off this site (mostly) for some time. I am not surprised that the arguments are still the same. The so called “proofs” people use are the same and nothing is changed or accomplished. I think there is a good reason for this. It is primarily due to the fact that scriptural proof has never worked to determine teaching. Because no one can agree or stick to an honest method to interpret scripture, all that is accomplished is opinion that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of the other party. I think there is an answer to part of this dilemma, though I doubt many have the guts to lay their doctrines on the alter to be truthfully tested. A secondary problem with the approach I am going to outline is that it requires a common sense approach. Most doctrinal people are not open to common sense.
A few points to consider —-
1. Character is the standard by which we gauge a persons motives and intentions toward God and man.
2. Scripture is not the standard by which we will be judged nor the standard by which our Godliness will be gauged. Christ is the standard and how much we become like Him is the measure of our Godliness. Not because Christ is God, but because Christ is our example and the pattern son. The pattern for us to follow. He clearly demonstrated perfected humanity. Humanity with the character of God developed in Him. He demonstrated the correct motives and intentions toward both God and man.Simply put scriptural interpretation is subject, first and foremost, not to hermeneutical principles, preconceived ideas or opinions, but rather to the character and plan of God in Christ. When one formulates a teaching/doctrine, the every first test is that of functionality. How does it function or work to help me complete the plan of God in my life or demonstrate how to achieve the character of God in me. In other words, how does it help me be like Christ?
If one is to understand the plan of God from scripture it must be understood that God’s goal is to grow up sons and daughters like Christ. There are many Christians that sell the plan of God short by assuming that we can never really be like Christ or that it will be achieved in heaven and not on Earth. Most Christians cannot see really being like Christ because they think that means we can never sin. Sin is literally translated as missing the mark. Like an archer missing a target. Most sin is not inherently evil. (there are sins that are evil) Most sin is wrongly categorized as not living up to the standard of Christ in our behavior. Our behavior is based on our motives and intentions. The struggle then become one of changing our motive and intentions. Like Christ said “clean the inside of the cup first and the outside will clean itself”. Two people miss the mark. One is remorseful and commits to doing better. The other offers excuses, blames others, and is arrogant. Both have missed the mark (sin). One shows respect for his father’s torah the other tramples it underfoot. One shows maturity in attitude and is forgiven, the other shows lack of respect for his father words is immature and not forgiven. That which separate us from God is not behavior, but rather the attitude, motive or intention behind the behavior.
The very point of Christ death on the cross was to wipe out our sins. ALL OUR SINS PAST PRSENT AND FUTURE. Our sins are as far as the East from the west and are no longer the object of concern. Being free from sin allows us to concentrate on the more important task of becoming like Christ in our character. This is also confirmed by the correct understanding of the Torah. The Torah was a teaching tool with basic guidelines on how to behave. The word/Torah is a governor or tutor to bring us to Christ. In other words a tool to help us to learn to be like Christ in character. When a child broke the father’s Torah he was not punished but taught and counseled how to do it better the next time. Only when a child’s attitude was disrespectful was the child punished. When a child showed an attitude to learn and a Godly sorrow at failing to complete the Torah, he showed good character. His motives to please his father and intentions to continue to do so were pleasing to God. For as long as the child continues to show this character and attitude toward God, he is perfect. The more circumstances under which the child shows this “perfect” attitude the more wisdom he learns and the more mature he becomes.
Unfortunately most Churches do not teach character development, but rather become sin police and ignor the motives and intentions that lie benieth. Quick to correct, they bully the body into their personal standard of “Godliness” and never deal with the inner man. This is easy to do because it requires little or no discernment or individual Godly judgment. It only requires authority given by man and a preconceived carnal standard of Godliness.
Back to doctrines of Christ as human or God.
Christ learned obedience by what he suffered. He grew in stature before God and man.
Luke 2:52?And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.Hebrews 5:8?Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
We too go through this maturing process =
Ephesians 4:13?until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.1 Peter 2:21?[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Peter 5:10?After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
As the above verse in 1 Peter confirms, we are to follow in Christ steps. If Christ is in any part God, one must ask the question, did Christ make his steps by virtue of his humanity or his deity?
If you say Christ did anything that we cannot do or if his accomplishments are in any way due to deity, then you have only a partial example. A partial example leaves the entire question open for debate as to which of Christ accomplishments we can duplicate. AND YET — We are told that we are to come to the stature of the fullness of Christ and not to the partial example of Christ. How about “Greater things shall Ye (us) do” Greater then a God?The entire question of Christ as our example combined with Christ being in any part God does not fit within the functional plan of God. If Christ is God or dual natured then we can never come to the fullness of the stature of Christ.
Several questions a person should ask of a doctrine are these.
Does the doctrine contradict the attributes of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say that God can change from being a Spirit into something else? The one thing God cannot do is stop being God/Spirit.
Does the doctrine contradict the Character of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say or imply that God can sin? Does it conclude that Christ is fully God and fully man and can sin then God can sin?
Does the doctrine claim that Christ is our example and then make Christ into a Creature or position that we can never attain?Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2007,12:18) No one wants to discuss this?
The only interesting discussion you will get is from me, and I'm not allowed to post here!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 09 2007,15:01) Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2007,12:18) No one wants to discuss this?
The only interesting discussion you will get is from me, and I'm not allowed to post here!
Stuart
You have a lot of nerve and insulting us is not going to get you anywhere with me. The only reason I am even saying anything is because of martian. So go where you belong or I will say something to the Administrator. If martian wants to have a unbelievers point of view He can go there.
Mrs.Hey Martian.
How do you know it doesn't work?
On every point you can hear the for and againsts, and then you can make your mind up. If a person is honest, then they can glean some great pearls of wisdom from here.
There will always be die hard people who ignore truth. That will always be the case.
Your judgement that it doesn't work is just your guess, but believe it or not, there are many who have learned from what is written here and there has been some great feedback from people who have seen arguments put to the sword.
When you realise that this is a war zone and not a hippy community, then you might appreciate it for what it is.
Ephesians 6:16-18
16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.If you are expecting everyone to just agree that there is one God the Father, then I think you will be disappointed. Look what it says in Revelation:
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.You could also argue about Jesus success. How many disciples did he make? But in time, he divided the time system itself.
Seeds planted can take time before they become fully grown trees.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 09 2007,15:37) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 09 2007,15:01) Quote (martian @ Dec. 09 2007,12:18) No one wants to discuss this?
The only interesting discussion you will get is from me, and I'm not allowed to post here!
Stuart
You have a lot of nerve and insulting us is not going to get you anywhere with me. The only reason I am even saying anything is because of martian. So go where you belong or I will say something to the Administrator. If martian wants to have a unbelievers point of view He can go there.
Mrs.
Actually I made a mistake. I am allowed to post here!Stuart
You Atheists have it your way.
1 John 2:23-24
Whoever denieth the SON THE SAME HATH NOT THE FATHER, He that aknowleges the Son hath the Father also.Mrs.
Hi Martian
Quote Most doctrinal people are not open to common sense. This is why people use the same disproven arguments over and over.
Rereading the rest of what you wrote, it turns out I was wrong. I don’t find it interesting at all. At every turn it shows not the childlike mind that t8 advocated earlier, but out-and-out immaturity, falling right into line with the view that christianity is the kind of submission where you are a child and you resist a maturing process, instead always needing the supernatural substitute parent and refusing to take responsibility for becoming a moral person with considered ethical views of your own. Reborn, but not regrown up.
Stuart
Hi T8,
Quote Your judgement that it doesn't work is just your guess, but believe it or not, there are many who have learned from what is written here and there has been some great feedback from people who have seen arguments put to the sword. I think you may have misunderstood martian. He wasn't saying that this forum doesn't work.
He said that scriptural proof has never worked.
I agree with him. Because for every scriptural quote that proves something, there is another scriptural quote
that proves the opposite understanding. You can listen to two Christians argue for hours about something
using their own favorite quotes from the bible.Teaching from the scriptures is a process of selective nullification. You choose what supports your particular
doctrine and selectively nullify the verses that do not.Tim
Quote (martian @ Dec. 08 2007,09:24) I have been off this site (mostly) for some time. I am not surprised that the arguments are still the same. The so called “proofs” people use are the same and nothing is changed or accomplished. I think there is a good reason for this. It is primarily due to the fact that scriptural proof has never worked to determine teaching. Because no one can agree or stick to an honest method to interpret scripture, all that is accomplished is opinion that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of the other party. I think there is an answer to part of this dilemma, though I doubt many have the guts to lay their doctrines on the alter to be truthfully tested. A secondary problem with the approach I am going to outline is that it requires a common sense approach. Most doctrinal people are not open to common sense. A few points to consider —-
1. Character is the standard by which we gauge a persons motives and intentions toward God and man.
2. Scripture is not the standard by which we will be judged nor the standard by which our Godliness will be gauged. Christ is the standard and how much we become like Him is the measure of our Godliness. Not because Christ is God, but because Christ is our example and the pattern son. The pattern for us to follow. He clearly demonstrated perfected humanity. Humanity with the character of God developed in Him. He demonstrated the correct motives and intentions toward both God and man.Simply put scriptural interpretation is subject, first and foremost, not to hermeneutical principles, preconceived ideas or opinions, but rather to the character and plan of God in Christ. When one formulates a teaching/doctrine, the every first test is that of functionality. How does it function or work to help me complete the plan of God in my life or demonstrate how to achieve the character of God in me. In other words, how does it help me be like Christ?
If one is to understand the plan of God from scripture it must be understood that God’s goal is to grow up sons and daughters like Christ. There are many Christians that sell the plan of God short by assuming that we can never really be like Christ or that it will be achieved in heaven and not on Earth. Most Christians cannot see really being like Christ because they think that means we can never sin. Sin is literally translated as missing the mark. Like an archer missing a target. Most sin is not inherently evil. (there are sins that are evil) Most sin is wrongly categorized as not living up to the standard of Christ in our behavior. Our behavior is based on our motives and intentions. The struggle then become one of changing our motive and intentions. Like Christ said “clean the inside of the cup first and the outside will clean itself”. Two people miss the mark. One is remorseful and commits to doing better. The other offers excuses, blames others, and is arrogant. Both have missed the mark (sin). One shows respect for his father’s torah the other tramples it underfoot. One shows maturity in attitude and is forgiven, the other shows lack of respect for his father words is immature and not forgiven. That which separate us from God is not behavior, but rather the attitude, motive or intention behind the behavior.
The very point of Christ death on the cross was to wipe out our sins. ALL OUR SINS PAST PRSENT AND FUTURE. Our sins are as far as the East from the west and are no longer the object of concern. Being free from sin allows us to concentrate on the more important task of becoming like Christ in our character. This is also confirmed by the correct understanding of the Torah. The Torah was a teaching tool with basic guidelines on how to behave. The word/Torah is a governor or tutor to bring us to Christ. In other words a tool to help us to learn to be like Christ in character. When a child broke the father’s Torah he was not punished but taught and counseled how to do it better the next time. Only when a child’s attitude was disrespectful was the child punished. When a child showed an attitude to learn and a Godly sorrow at failing to complete the Torah, he showed good character. His motives to please his father and intentions to continue to do so were pleasing to God. For as long as the child continues to show this character and attitude toward God, he is perfect. The more circumstances under which the child shows this “perfect” attitude the more wisdom he learns and the more mature he becomes.
Unfortunately most Churches do not teach character development, but rather become sin police and ignor the motives and intentions that lie benieth. Quick to correct, they bully the body into their personal standard of “Godliness” and never deal with the inner man. This is easy to do because it requires little or no discernment or individual Godly judgment. It only requires authority given by man and a preconceived carnal standard of Godliness.
Back to doctrines of Christ as human or God.
Christ learned obedience by what he suffered. He grew in stature before God and man.
Luke 2:52?And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.Hebrews 5:8?Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
We too go through this maturing process =
Ephesians 4:13?until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.1 Peter 2:21?[ Christ Is Our Example ] For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Peter 5:10?After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
As the above verse in 1 Peter confirms, we are to follow in Christ steps. If Christ is in any part God, one must ask the question, did Christ make his steps by virtue of his humanity or his deity?
If you say Christ did anything that we cannot do or if his accomplishments are in any way due to deity, then you have only a partial example. A partial example leaves the entire question open for debate as to which of Christ accomplishments we can duplicate. AND YET — We are told that we are to come to the stature of the fullness of Christ and not to the partial example of Christ. How about “Greater things shall Ye (us) do” Greater then a God?The entire question of Christ as our example combined with Christ being in any part God does not fit within the functional plan of God. If Christ is God or dual natured then we can never come to the fullness of the stature of Christ.
Several questions a person should ask of a doctrine are these.
Does the doctrine contradict the attributes of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say that God can change from being a Spirit into something else? The one thing God cannot do is stop being God/Spirit.
Does the doctrine contradict the Character of God?
Example: Does the doctrine say or imply that God can sin? Does it conclude that Christ is fully God and fully man and can sin then God can sin?
Does the doctrine claim that Christ is our example and then make Christ into a Creature or position that we can never attain?
this is where the study of textual criticism, history, the early church, dead sea scrolls, biblical language, archaelogy and other fields of research really help.unfortunately, most Christians, I know, don't see much value here and are afraid to reference any material (for insight) outside of scripture.
however, the very nature of much of scripture, in particular the new testament, is written within t
he context that some information is a given or already known. Such as the epistles, which are answers to church questions, or further teaching on subjects that were first introduced through oral teaching face to face. We are not privy to these personal teachings and must reassemble them within there context.Context is everything in interpretation.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 09 2007,15:37) Me neither.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 09 2007,05:12) Hi T8, Quote Your judgement that it doesn't work is just your guess, but believe it or not, there are many who have learned from what is written here and there has been some great feedback from people who have seen arguments put to the sword. I think you may have misunderstood martian. He wasn't saying that this forum doesn't work.
He said that scriptural proof has never worked.
I agree with him. Because for every scriptural quote that proves something, there is another scriptural quote
that proves the opposite understanding. You can listen to two Christians argue for hours about something
using their own favorite quotes from the bible.Teaching from the scriptures is a process of selective nullification. You choose what supports your particular
doctrine and selectively nullify the verses that do not.Tim
That is why there are literally hundreds of splinter denominations. True, Judaism has its sects but there are really only a handful.Of the two, the Tanakh has much less 'wiggle' room. The GT is chock full of ambiguities and contradictions and that is why Christians are so confused over the nature of their god.
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2007,02:34) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 09 2007,15:37) Me neither.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
Ken I agree with you and given that scripture in
1 John 2:23-24 before too, but does anybody listen and stop. you know the answer to that. I just can't understand that Christians want to have advice from one Atheist and the other Antichrist according to scripture.
I wonder why that is so. Who else is Satan after. We as Christian should be very concerned who We have conversation about Scripture matters. Not only that I can't understand why they would want to. I know I have answered Stu an Tow, but only for the benefit of other Christian. Right now I see Timothy involved, and I hope you seek the advice of those scriptures that Ken just gave you. All I can say to you watch out. Lets see who is it that you don't see posting anymore. Don't you wonder were they are?
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 09 2007,09:34) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 09 2007,15:37) Me neither.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
The words of someone who believes in fiction have no effect on me. Who cares if I am antichrist? There is no christ in the Tanakh, just Moshiach. Christians pretend that they are one in the same, but anyone who truly knows Tanakh sees it differently.Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 09 2007,22:12) Hi T8, Quote Your judgement that it doesn't work is just your guess, but believe it or not, there are many who have learned from what is written here and there has been some great feedback from people who have seen arguments put to the sword. I think you may have misunderstood martian. He wasn't saying that this forum doesn't work.
He said that scriptural proof has never worked.
I agree with him. Because for every scriptural quote that proves something, there is another scriptural quote
that proves the opposite understanding. You can listen to two Christians argue for hours about something
using their own favorite quotes from the bible.Teaching from the scriptures is a process of selective nullification. You choose what supports your particular
doctrine and selectively nullify the verses that do not.Tim
Hi Tim4,
The bible was written by the Spirit of God through men.
It cannot be seen as bound together without the anointing of that Spirit.
We do need to seek that anointing and in Christ must do so.
Lk 11
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Rom8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.All who are yet to find Christ can also seek wisdom from God and it will be given.
Jas1
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.When the light of Christ arises in our hearts then harmony in what is written is slowly seen and we can take good things from both the Old and the New storehouses.
2Peter1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 10 2007,04:58) Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 09 2007,22:12) Hi T8, Quote Your judgement that it doesn't work is just your guess, but believe it or not, there are many who have learned from what is written here and there has been some great feedback from people who have seen arguments put to the sword. I think you may have misunderstood martian. He wasn't saying that this forum doesn't work.
He said that scriptural proof has never worked.
I agree with him. Because for every scriptural quote that proves something, there is another scriptural quote
that proves the opposite understanding. You can listen to two Christians argue for hours about something
using their own favorite quotes from the bible.Teaching from the scriptures is a process of selective nullification. You choose what supports your particular
doctrine and selectively nullify the verses that do not.Tim
Hi Tim4,
The bible was written by the Spirit of God through men.
It cannot be seen as bound together without the anointing of that Spirit.
We do need to seek that anointing and in Christ must do so.
Lk 11
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Rom8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.All who are yet to find Christ can also seek wisdom from God and it will be given.
Jas1
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.When the light of Christ arises in our hearts then harmony in what is written is slowly seen and we can take good things from both the Old and the New storehouses.
2Peter1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Those that do not walk in God's Holy Spirit will never understand. What makes it so madning tho that they are trying to tell us that there is no Messiah. So again I have to say to those that are still having a conversation with Tow and Stu why? What can you learn from them? You are not going to convince them to change their minds. That I have seen over several weeks now. I am however very concerned about those that are still believers. Satan is after YOU. So watch out, my Brethren its the end times and the going is going to get rough.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but He that denies Jesus is the Christ? He is the ANTICHRIST WHO DENIES THE FATHER AND THE SON.
VERSE 23 WHOEVER DENIES THE SON DOES NOT HAVE THE FATHER EITHER……..Peace and Love Mrs..
Hi im4,
It is our duty to behave among unbelievers as Christ would and not to reject them because they do not immediately see the hope and light we bear.Nick You are deluding yourself if you think that you will be able to bring them around. They have been here a long time. They have read and have been heard from many Brethren, but yet have not learned the truth. We have been very kind to them . But now is time to do what Christ would have us do. I have done my duty some time ago. How in the world can you say it is our duty to entertain Antichrist?
BY THEIR OWN WORDS THEY HAVE IDENTAFIED THEMSELVES.
Peace and Love Mrs.
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