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Quote (2besee @ June 06 2013,08:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,12:33) BTW, I am exactly as polytheistic as the inspired writers of the scriptures. I worship and serve only ONE God, Jehovah. But I don't turn a blind eye to hundreds of scriptures just because I WANT there to literally exist only one “el”. 2B, we know from scripture that Jehovah is the Most High God of gods, right? So tell me, who are some of these less high gods that Jehovah is the God OF. Can you do that?
Quote I am exactly as polytheistic as the inspired writers of the scriptures. I worship and serve only ONE God, Jehovah. But I don't turn a blind eye to hundreds of scriptures just because I WANT there to literally exist only one “el Mike,
Psalm 96
“For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods. 5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. 6 Honor and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.Jeremiah 10,
“Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.
“It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.
Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge; Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; For his molten images are deceitful, And there is no breath in them.“As you can see, all other gods are man made, and idols, and will be destroyed.
2beeYou do nt understand what those scriptures are saying ,you are only guided by your bias view, not by the truth of God,s word
BTW Terraricca and Mike, i find the way that you speak to brother kerwin and others completely disrespectful, and I advise you to stop.
Quote (2besee @ June 05 2013,19:05) Lol,
That is what you always say when you are shown to be incorrect in a matter, T. Same old.
Hi 2b,Amen.
Peace brother.
Quote (2besee @ June 06 2013,14:06) Hi Ed 
Hi,But I don't believe I have commented on this thread in a L-O-N-G while.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 06 2013,16:48) Quote (2besee @ June 06 2013,13:37) Mike, Psalm 96
“For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods. 5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. 6 Honor and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.Jeremiah 10,
“Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.
“It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens.
Every man is stupid, devoid of knowledge; Every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; For his molten images are deceitful, And there is no breath in them.“As you can see, all other gods are man made, and idols, and will be destroyed.
Hi 2Besee,Spot-on!
Amen
John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?So what about this then. There seems to be a legit use of theos here which is believed to be in reference to an OT scripture. Angels are also called elohim legitimately and so are earthquakes because there is a qualititave use of this word. Note: tried to find that scripture but couldn't. Have read it in the past.
Surely if we are talking about literal theos/gods then yes there is one. But if we are using theos in a qualitative sense, then that is different because you can use theos and elohim qualitatively to many things outside of YHWH.
Just like we would say that literally there is one WHO is the Devil. But qualitatively there are many devils who are not THE Devil.
To say that all who are referred to as theos are false unless they are YHWH is a false statement. There are a number of scriptures that prove this assumption wrong and it is the source of many unnecessary debates.
Hi T8.
That is an interesting verse. This if my understanding of it:They were called gods, but as mortal men they will die, because in reality, that's all they were. So that is understandable with the verses which say that all “so called gods” will die/perish.
I think the following explains it quite well.
Gill's,
I have said, ye are gods,…. In the law, Exodus 21:6 or they were so by his appointment and commission; he constituted them judges and magistrates, invested them with such an office, by which they came to have this title; see Romans 13:1, and so our Lord interprets these words, that they were gods “to whom” the word of God came, which gave them a commission and authority to exercise their office, John 10:35, or rather “against whom” it came, pronouncing the sentence of death on them, as in Psalm 82:7, to which the reference is; declaring, that though they were gods by office, yet were mortal men, and should die.
Quote (2besee @ June 05 2013,20:29) Hi T8.
That is an interesting verse. This if my understanding of it:They were called gods, but as mortal men they will die, because in reality, that's all they were. So that is understandable with the verses which say that all “so called gods” will die/perish.
I think the following explains it quite well.
Gill's,
I have said, ye are gods,…. In the law, Exodus 21:6 or they were so by his appointment and commission; he constituted them judges and magistrates, invested them with such an office, by which they came to have this title; see Romans 13:1, and so our Lord interprets these words, that they were gods “to whom” the word of God came, which gave them a commission and authority to exercise their office, John 10:35, or rather “against whom” it came, pronouncing the sentence of death on them, as in Psalm 82:7, to which the reference is; declaring, that though they were gods by office, yet were mortal men, and should die.
Hi 2b,And:
How many were BORN from the dead?
Peace brother….
Quote (2besee @ June 06 2013,18:29) Hi T8.
That is an interesting verse. This if my understanding of it:They were called gods, but as mortal men they will die, because in reality, that's all they were. So that is understandable with the verses which say that all “so called gods” will die/perish.
I think the following explains it quite well.
Gill's,
I have said, ye are gods,…. In the law, Exodus 21:6 or they were so by his appointment and commission; he constituted them judges and magistrates, invested them with such an office, by which they came to have this title; see Romans 13:1, and so our Lord interprets these words, that they were gods “to whom” the word of God came, which gave them a commission and authority to exercise their office, John 10:35, or rather “against whom” it came, pronouncing the sentence of death on them, as in Psalm 82:7, to which the reference is; declaring, that though they were gods by office, yet were mortal men, and should die.
So the point is that theos can be used legitamately outside of YHWH. If they were appointed, then they are not false theos, thus the idea that all theos outside of YHWH are false is not a true statement. And it is a wrong assumption even if only one legit example of theos exists that is not YHWH.But angels were also called gods/elohim.
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!Finally the word elohim can be used to describe something that was exceedingly great like an earthquake or a city.
1 Samuel 14:15
And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.Jonah 3:3
So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly (elohim) great city, a three days’ walk.See how theos and elohim (God/god) can have a legitimate qualitative use?
So it is not true that all who are described as theos and elohim are false gods.
But it is true to say that any of these are not THE true God.
That is the difference.
Now notice this verse which Jesus quoted when he said, “ye are gods”.
Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’So if they are theos/elohim those that are the sons of the Most High God, then how are they false gods? They aren't. Further, we and angels are called sons of God. And it is written that we will become like the angels.
I think this proves the Trinitarian idea that all who are called or described as theos are false theos but YHWH wouldn't you agree? There are clearly legit those who are described as theos/elohim that are not YHWH.
Hi T8,
You said: (quote) “Finally the word elohim can be used to describe something that was exceedingly great like an earthquake or a city” (unquote)
No.
Here's the verses you quoted followed by the literal translation:Jonah 3:3 “So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly (elohim) great city, a three days’ walk.”
Literal:
“and Jonah riseth, and he goeth unto Nineveh, according to the word of Jehovah. And Nineveh hath been a great city before God, a journey of three days”
“A great city before God”.
1 Samuel 14:15 And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.
Literal:
“So it was a great trembling (earthquake) FROM God“.You are trying to say that the city and the earthquake are theos. That is not what it says.
We could go on all day about that.
Point of the matter is: 'Yes', there are those that are called Gods. But, as Paul says: 'Even if there are those called gods, to us there is one God, the Father'.John 1:1 is NOT about two Gods, as some here would have us believe.
Quote
I created a new acronym. ISM. It stands for all the isms out there that try to explain God. Trinitarianism, Binitarianism, Quadratarianism, etc.Don't forget to add “Henotheism” to the list, if you know what that is
BTW if I sounded angry at all in my last post i was frustrated at my phone. It doesn't do what it should!
YLT and NIV (I think) renders it with your view, but nearly every other translation renders it they way I mention. e.g.,
King James Version
And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling.American Standard Version
And there was a trembling in the camp, in the field, and among all the people; the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled; and the earth quaked: so there was an exceeding great trembling.That said, I am open minded enough to consider that what you say could be true and that indeed it is talking about God. And if that is the case, it doesn't change the message in my post one bit.
The online Concordance linked on Heaven Net (site) gives this meaning for elohim.
Usage in KJV
God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward 04136 1, godly 1http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.p….14&w=15
So it says that it is used twice to mean 'mighty' and once to mean 'exceeding'. So not only most translations but also at least one Concordance. I haven't checked out any others for lack of time.
That said, let's assume that you are right and ignore what most translators render it as. So let's cross out those 2 scriptures in my post as not being supportive of what I say just so we can move on and leave this as another subject to perhaps debate and discuss separate to this one. Then what of the rest of the evidence I present? Where men and angels are called theos/elohim/gods because this is the real evidence and point of discussion anyway.
Can you explain these scriptures away? Or do you agree that all who are described as theos or elohim do not all fit in the YHWH or false gods categories? That there must at least be another third use or meaning denoting some who are not YHWH nor false gods.
Okay T8, so what do you do with the verses which i quoted one page back? I can find plenty more like those. You have not commented on them.
Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,01:42) Quote
I created a new acronym. ISM. It stands for all the isms out there that try to explain God. Trinitarianism, Binitarianism, Quadratarianism, etc.Don't forget to add “Henotheism” to the list, if you know what that is
BTW if I sounded angry at all in my last post i was frustrated at my phone. It doesn't do what it should!
Everything can have a negative label slapped on it, even the truth. After all those who have great faith in God are called all kinds of negative things.That said, we know from scripture, (not something we invented) that there are indeed others who are legitimately describes as theos and elohim that are not YHWH and nor are they false gods.
Further, the word worship is not always about God. Even one of the Churches are told that there enemies will worship at their feet, and people legitimately worshiped kings like David etc in scripture.
The truth of the matter is not that only God is worshipped, but that only God is worshipped as the Most High God. We also see in addition to that, that Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and also as the Lamb of God. And here is the same word worship as mentioned before.
Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I … As before (Revelation 2:9), those who “say they are Jews, and they are not,” .1 Chronicles 29:20
Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the Lord your God.” And all the assembly blessed the Lord, the God of their fathers, and bowed low and did homage to the Lord and to the king.People can be worshipped/honoured/be prostrate/ to others besides God. But only God (the Father) is worshipped/honoured as God himself.
Quote (2besee @ June 07 2013,01:53) Okay T8, so what do you do with the verses which i quoted one page back? I can find plenty more like those. You have not commented on them.
The point is, to accept your view, we now have a contradiction. There are no other gods, and yet clearly others are legitimately called gods.Without looking at the verses, I can provide the solution to this dilemma. I will start with an example.
We both agree that there is one who is the Devil.
We both agree that there are devils.
We both agree that even Judas was qualitatively called a devil by Jesus.Now if there was a scripture that said, there is one who is the Devil, then that would be true because most agree that there is Satan who is the Devil. But that truth would not nullify the other uses for the word devil because only one is used to identify the Devil and the others are to qualify or describe those that share in his nature. So the Devil is the father of lies and a murder from the beginning. And those who do his work can be legitimately described as devils. Even a man can be called a devil. So far no contradiction then if we accept that there is one who is the Devil and there are devils.
Now if you did something very nice for me and I called you an angel, would that mean you have wings? No, because it would be clear by context that I am qualifying you as having the attributes of a good angel. I am not saying you are an actual angelic being am I.
In Greek, theos and elohim can be used like this too, just as we do in English.
And here is the solution. The Most High God in the Bible is identified as the Father. Others are described as gods because they are of the counsel of God. They are not false gods and neither are they YHWH.
I am only accepting what is written and the usages of Greek. I have no axe to grind here or an agenda to push. Okay the only agenda I do push is what I believe is truth. I am not saying I am the truth, but that I love truth and whatever it is, I need to change accordingly when I find it.
Too many people I have met have it the other way around. They are the truth or possess the truth and will not change accordingly when truth is presented. I am not saying you are one.
But clearly there is one God, and there are other gods/theos/elohim who are not false theos and are not YHWH.
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