Islam

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,15:07)

Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,12:00) No haste I think.  I have suggested this to BD every time he claims that the only basis for islam is the koran. He is in the minority, and his answers to Tim's questions suggest to me he could be the only muslim that believes these things.  To appear reasonable in your beliefs as a muslim you do need to discard the hadiths, there is where I agree.  But to be reasonable in your beliefs as a human being you would have to discard the koran too.  It is dangerous because it is internally contradictory and therefore justifies violence for those who interpret it that way. Do gods inspire books containing statements of their “will” that could be taken in so many different ways?  So much for greatness: the communication is lousy. Of course the reality is that whenever Mo came across a case where his next military action in Arabia needed to contradict what he had already dictated to his scribes, he would disappear inside his tent and hey presto come up with a new “inspired” sura that would justify his next atrocity. Religion of peace, my backside. Stuart This makes no sense because there are millions upon millions who believe as I do, that the Quran is the pure guidance. Anyone can misinterpret anything based upon their own desires. You wish that there was no religion someone can interpret that to mean we should kill all those that are religious but hatreds have more to do with a disease of the heart and soul.

I disagree that anything can be misinterpreted if it is stated clearly enough. For example, there is little ambiguity in this:

8:12 …I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

If you are a quranist, then I'm happy to accept that there could be 10 to 20 millions that believe like you. That is about 1% of all those who call themselves muslim. Of course most of the other 99% don't consider the 1% of quranists to be muslims.

Your interpretation of a person's belief that there should be no religion and so murder is acceptable is bizarre. Religion is a set of ideas that people carry in their heads. If your suggested interpretation was realistic, then it would have been expressed as “we should not have religious people”. Now, if you were to ask the average person in the street whether it was atheists (a despised minority) or muslims (a warily tolerated minority) that were killing instead of arguing against their opponents, where do you think opinions would lie?

Stuart

[Stu]

…I should have added that atheists are a despised minority in all the evil theocracies and pseudotheocracies, like Saudi Arabia, Iran and the US… but not in most other civilised Western nations where belief in god is dying rapidly and non-belief is becoming the norm.

Stuart

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,06:48)

Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,05:02) Hi BD, The 'book of fraud' is not Appropriate and disrespectful. Ĕl-äh-ä is how you say “God” in Aramaic. Psalms 45:17 I will make thy name (יהוה) YÄ-hä-vā) to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Perhaps you need to go teach muslims what God's name is; aye? Ed J Aren't languages different? So when did Jesus say YHVH? Can you show me the scripture?

Hi BD,

I(Jesus) have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6)
John 17:26 And I(Jesus) have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it:
that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Ed J

[princess]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,15:07)

Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,12:00) No haste I think.  I have suggested this to BD every time he claims that the only basis for islam is the koran. He is in the minority, and his answers to Tim's questions suggest to me he could be the only muslim that believes these things.  To appear reasonable in your beliefs as a muslim you do need to discard the hadiths, there is where I agree.  But to be reasonable in your beliefs as a human being you would have to discard the koran too.  It is dangerous because it is internally contradictory and therefore justifies violence for those who interpret it that way. Do gods inspire books containing statements of their “will” that could be taken in so many different ways?  So much for greatness: the communication is lousy. Of course the reality is that whenever Mo came across a case where his next military action in Arabia needed to contradict what he had already dictated to his scribes, he would disappear inside his tent and hey presto come up with a new “inspired” sura that would justify his next atrocity. Religion of peace, my backside. Stuart This makes no sense because there are millions upon millions who believe as I do, that the Quran is the pure guidance. Anyone can misinterpret anything based upon their own desires. You wish that there was no religion someone can interpret that to mean we should kill all those that are religious but hatreds have more to do with a disease of the heart and soul.

For you to proclaim as you do, where are these other millions?

……..and why are not muslims pleading with other muslims to give food and water, my memory serves me correct tis one of the reason you chose to become muslim, due to one feed you.

i really just don't understand, it is water, perhaps now the muslims are pulling their own natural selection, only the strong will survive.

so tell me BD, when the a young male child dies of starvation, what in the sam hill is he going to do with virgins and how is allah going to explain to him, that it was his will.

tis not the will of what is true, even I cannot use the word god anymore due to what is attached to it.

[TimothyVI]

Good for you Princess.

Tim

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,15:10)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,15:03) Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,09:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,04:07) You have a drastic misunderstanding about Islam and Sharia law. There is a huge difference between the foundations of Law and religion and how those things are altered by “group think” for instance in the U.S. the foundation of our laws were biblical and now they have went as far as allowing Gay Marriage and making adultery a noncriminal offense and this is a result of “group think” not what the bible portrays as God's will or Sharia. Muhammad said that the Quran is the ultimate source of truth and that even if he said something contrary to it to believe in the Quran over anything he could ever say Please respond to the point.  It is a sura that tells muslims not to sue for peace when they think they might be winning a war for their Imaginary Friend allah.  That is completely consistent with the aims of the islamic terrorists in Somalia, which is establishment of Sharia Law, and consistent with the idea that they would prevent the incursion of influences they consider should be resisted in the name of that non-existent deity, even if it means the people cannot expect peace… …or food. By the way, you appear to have a drastic misunderstanding about the foundation of the laws of the US. Stuart the pledge of allegiance says “ONE NATION UNDER GOD” that shows direct influence of religion The words “under god” were forced into your Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 by religious zealots. But how is the Pledge relevant to what you claimed? Stuart

Stu

The first people to arrive here in America were very religious and their laws were based upon religious notions as most laws have always been it is only rather recently that laws have become more secularly based

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,15:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,15:07) Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,12:00) No haste I think.  I have suggested this to BD every time he claims that the only basis for islam is the koran. He is in the minority, and his answers to Tim's questions suggest to me he could be the only muslim that believes these things.  To appear reasonable in your beliefs as a muslim you do need to discard the hadiths, there is where I agree.  But to be reasonable in your beliefs as a human being you would have to discard the koran too.  It is dangerous because it is internally contradictory and therefore justifies violence for those who interpret it that way. Do gods inspire books containing statements of their “will” that could be taken in so many different ways?  So much for greatness: the communication is lousy. Of course the reality is that whenever Mo came across a case where his next military action in Arabia needed to contradict what he had already dictated to his scribes, he would disappear inside his tent and hey presto come up with a new “inspired” sura that would justify his next atrocity. Religion of peace, my backside. Stuart This makes no sense because there are millions upon millions who believe as I do, that the Quran is the pure guidance. Anyone can misinterpret anything based upon their own desires. You wish that there was no religion someone can interpret that to mean we should kill all those that are religious but hatreds have more to do with a disease of the heart and soul. I disagree that anything can be misinterpreted if it is stated clearly enough.  For example, there is little ambiguity in this: 8:12 …I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. If you are a quranist, then I'm happy to accept that there could be 10 to 20 millions that believe like you.  That is about 1% of all those who call themselves muslim.  Of course most of the other 99% don't consider the 1% of quranists to be muslims. Your interpretation of a person's belief that there should be no religion and so murder is acceptable is bizarre.  Religion is a set of ideas that people carry in their heads.  If your suggested interpretation was realistic, then it would have been expressed as “we should not have religious people”.  Now, if you were to ask the average person in the street whether it was atheists (a despised minority) or muslims (a warily tolerated minority) that were killing instead of arguing against their opponents, where do you think opinions would lie? Stuart

religions are only enacted upon by religious people hence killing all religious people equals the end of religion and don't you want to put an end to religion?

You see my point? Perhaps yo shouldn't argue for the elimination of religion because you might cause someone to murder.

The real question is why do you even argue against religion at all? If you are correct and God doesn't exist then humans would still be following a natural drive to believe in God otherwise it would not occur.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,15:48)

…I should have added that atheists are a despised minority in all the evil theocracies and pseudotheocracies, like Saudi Arabia, Iran and the US… but not in most other civilised Western nations where belief in god is dying rapidly and non-belief is becoming the norm. Stuart

Yes and in those cultures they have an aging population and dying out. There are no booming atheist cultures and many of these western europe countrie are being enveloped by Muslims hence the reason the killer in norway decided to go on a killing spree.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,02:11)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,05:02) Hi BD, The 'book of fraud' is not Appropriate and disrespectful. Ĕl-äh-ä is how you say “God” in Aramaic. Psalms 45:17 I will make thy name (יהוה) YÄ-hä-vā) to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Perhaps you need to go teach muslims what God's name is; aye? Ed J Aren't languages different? So when did Jesus say YHVH? Can you show me the scripture? Hi BD, I(Jesus) have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6) John 17:26 And I(Jesus) have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Ed J

Where in that staement do you find YHVH? Don't you think that being Jews already they knew of the Tetragrammaton ?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (princess @ July 30 2011,00:21)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,15:07) Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,12:00) No haste I think.  I have suggested this to BD every time he claims that the only basis for islam is the koran. He is in the minority, and his answers to Tim's questions suggest to me he could be the only muslim that believes these things.  To appear reasonable in your beliefs as a muslim you do need to discard the hadiths, there is where I agree.  But to be reasonable in your beliefs as a human being you would have to discard the koran too.  It is dangerous because it is internally contradictory and therefore justifies violence for those who interpret it that way. Do gods inspire books containing statements of their “will” that could be taken in so many different ways?  So much for greatness: the communication is lousy. Of course the reality is that whenever Mo came across a case where his next military action in Arabia needed to contradict what he had already dictated to his scribes, he would disappear inside his tent and hey presto come up with a new “inspired” sura that would justify his next atrocity. Religion of peace, my backside. Stuart This makes no sense because there are millions upon millions who believe as I do, that the Quran is the pure guidance. Anyone can misinterpret anything based upon their own desires. You wish that there was no religion someone can interpret that to mean we should kill all those that are religious but hatreds have more to do with a disease of the heart and soul. For you to proclaim as you do, where are these other millions? ……..and why are not muslims pleading with other muslims to give food and water, my memory serves me correct tis one of the reason you chose to become muslim, due to one feed you. i really just don't understand, it is water, perhaps now the muslims are pulling their own natural selection, only the strong will survive. so tell me BD, when the a young male child dies of starvation, what in the sam hill is he going to do with virgins and how is allah going to explain to him, that it was his will. tis not the will of what is true, even I cannot use the word god anymore due to what is attached to it.

So now your wisdom supercedes the wisdom of God?

Where have you ever read that we should never suffer or die in this lifetime? How is it hell or heaven be decided except for the judgement of individuals being exposed through life experience and actions?

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:27)

Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,02:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,05:02) Hi BD, The 'book of fraud' is not Appropriate and disrespectful. Ĕl-äh-ä is how you say “God” in Aramaic. Psalms 45:17 I will make thy name (יהוה) YÄ-hä-vā) to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Perhaps you need to go teach muslims what God's name is; aye? Ed J Aren't languages different? So when did Jesus say YHVH? Can you show me the scripture? Hi BD, I(Jesus) have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6) John 17:26 And I(Jesus) have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Ed J Where in that staement do you find YHVH? Don't you think that being Jews already they knew of the Tetragrammaton ?

Hi BD,

Are you saying the verse (according to BD) is wrong?
You yourself admitted YHVH is God's name,
and these verses says his name
is revealed to believers.
Do you deny this?

Ed J

[princess]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:32)

Quote

So now your wisdom supercedes the wisdom of God?

Your god, pretty much BD.

Quote

Where have you ever read that we should never suffer or die in this lifetime?

where is it written that you should deny one of food and water.

Quote

How is it hell or heaven be decided except for the judgement of individuals being exposed through life experience and actions?

What does this have to do with a young child BD, absolutely nothing.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,13:57)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:27) Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,02:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,05:02) Hi BD, The 'book of fraud' is not Appropriate and disrespectful. Ĕl-äh-ä is how you say “God” in Aramaic. Psalms 45:17 I will make thy name (יהוה) YÄ-hä-vā) to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Perhaps you need to go teach muslims what God's name is; aye? Ed J Aren't languages different? So when did Jesus say YHVH? Can you show me the scripture? Hi BD, I(Jesus) have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6) John 17:26 And I(Jesus) have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Ed J Where in that staement do you find YHVH? Don't you think that being Jews already they knew of the Tetragrammaton ? Hi BD, Are you saying the verse (according to BD) is wrong? You yourself admitted YHVH is God's name, and these verses says his name is revealed to believers. Do you deny this? Ed J

No you misunderstand what the point is, I am saying that the verse itself does not use the name. Jesus is never quoted in the Bible as saying YHVH, even in the bible context of Jesus being on the Cross he say “My God, My God”.

The Original Hebrew translation for 'O God, O God why have you forsaken me' is 'Elai, Elai, lama sabachthani'. The word 'Elai' exactly means 'Allah' in Arabic.

There is no New Testament verse that contains YHVH but you use this name casually

[bodhitharta]

Quote (princess @ July 31 2011,02:48)

bodhitharta,July wrote: [/quote] Quote So now your wisdom supercedes the wisdom of God? Your god, pretty much BD. Quote Where have you ever read that we should never suffer or die in this lifetime? where is it written that you should deny one of food and water. Quote How is it hell or heaven be decided except for the judgement of individuals being exposed through life experience and actions? What does this have to do with a young child BD, absolutely nothing.

How are you blaming evil on God?

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2011,09:40)

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,13:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:27) Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,02:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,05:02) Hi BD, The 'book of fraud' is not Appropriate and disrespectful. Ĕl-äh-ä is how you say “God” in Aramaic. Psalms 45:17 I will make thy name (יהוה) YÄ-hä-vā) to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Perhaps you need to go teach muslims what God's name is; aye? Ed J Aren't languages different? So when did Jesus say YHVH? Can you show me the scripture? Hi BD, I(Jesus) have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6) John 17:26 And I(Jesus) have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Ed J Where in that staement do you find YHVH? Don't you think that being Jews already they knew of the Tetragrammaton ? Hi BD, Are you saying the verse (according to BD) is wrong? You yourself admitted YHVH is God's name, and these verses says his name is revealed to believers. Do you deny this? Ed J No you misunderstand what the point is, I am saying that the verse itself does not use the name. Jesus is never quoted in the Bible as saying YHVH, even in the bible context of Jesus being on the Cross he say “My God, My God”. The Original Hebrew translation for 'O God, O God why have you forsaken me' is 'Elai, Elai, lama sabachthani'. The word 'Elai' exactly means 'Allah' in Arabic. There is no New Testament verse that contains YHVH but you use this name casually

Hi BD,

Are you trying to dismiss yourself from your teaching responsibility to teach muslims what God's Name really is?

Ed J

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ July 31 2011,10:22)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2011,09:40) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,13:57) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:27) Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,02:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,06:48) Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,05:02) Hi BD, The 'book of fraud' is not Appropriate and disrespectful. Ĕl-äh-ä is how you say “God” in Aramaic. Psalms 45:17 I will make thy name (יהוה) YÄ-hä-vā) to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Perhaps you need to go teach muslims what God's name is; aye? Ed J Aren't languages different? So when did Jesus say YHVH? Can you show me the scripture? Hi BD, I(Jesus) have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (John 17:6) John 17:26 And I(Jesus) have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. Ed J Where in that staement do you find YHVH? Don't you think that being Jews already they knew of the Tetragrammaton ? Hi BD, Are you saying the verse (according to BD) is wrong? You yourself admitted YHVH is God's name, and these verses says his name is revealed to believers. Do you deny this? Ed J No you misunderstand what the point is, I am saying that the verse itself does not use the name. Jesus is never quoted in the Bible as saying YHVH, even in the bible context of Jesus being on the Cross he say “My God, My God”. The Original Hebrew translation for 'O God, O God why have you forsaken me' is 'Elai, Elai, lama sabachthani'. The word 'Elai' exactly means 'Allah' in Arabic. There is no New Testament verse that contains YHVH but you use this name casually Hi BD, Are you trying to dismiss yourself from your teaching responsibility to teach muslims what God's Name really is? Ed J

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Exodus 6:2-4

Notice that even though these others did not know God by the name of Jehovah/YHVH He was still their God so it is easy to understand that the world knew God first and foremost as The GOD i.e. Allah as in The God (Allah) of Abraham

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:12)

Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,15:10) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,15:03) Quote (Stu @ July 28 2011,09:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 28 2011,04:07) You have a drastic misunderstanding about Islam and Sharia law. There is a huge difference between the foundations of Law and religion and how those things are altered by “group think” for instance in the U.S. the foundation of our laws were biblical and now they have went as far as allowing Gay Marriage and making adultery a noncriminal offense and this is a result of “group think” not what the bible portrays as God's will or Sharia. Muhammad said that the Quran is the ultimate source of truth and that even if he said something contrary to it to believe in the Quran over anything he could ever say Please respond to the point.  It is a sura that tells muslims not to sue for peace when they think they might be winning a war for their Imaginary Friend allah.  That is completely consistent with the aims of the islamic terrorists in Somalia, which is establishment of Sharia Law, and consistent with the idea that they would prevent the incursion of influences they consider should be resisted in the name of that non-existent deity, even if it means the people cannot expect peace… …or food. By the way, you appear to have a drastic misunderstanding about the foundation of the laws of the US. Stuart the pledge of allegiance says “ONE NATION UNDER GOD” that shows direct influence of religion The words “under god” were forced into your Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 by religious zealots. But how is the Pledge relevant to what you claimed? Stuart Stu The first people to arrive here in America were very religious and their laws were based upon religious notions as most laws have always been it is only rather recently that laws have become more secularly based

As usual you change your claim, from “in the U.S. the foundation of our laws were biblical” to “their laws were based upon religious notions as most laws have always been it is only rather recently that laws have become more secularly based”.

The US constitution has always been secular. If some religions also promote the principles on which some laws are based, that does not mean that the laws are based on those religions. You would be right to say that laws have become less aligned with socially conservative ideas, which has mainly involved removal of religiously-motivated discrimination.

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:20)

religions are only enacted upon by religious people hence killing all religious people equals the end of religion and don't you want to put an end to religion? You see my point? Perhaps yo shouldn't argue for the elimination of religion because you might cause someone to murder. The real question is why do you even argue against religion at all? If you are correct and God doesn't exist then humans would still be following a natural drive to believe in God otherwise it would not occur.

I am not a muslim, so my thinking is not like those Somali terrorists who will allow people to die to promote their ideology, or the other muslims terrorists who kill people because the koran gives them permission. Your suggestion would be so trivially wrong to anyone who has come to know the nature of my posts here. Obviously I believe that religious belief is based upon ignorance and a lack of consideration of the universe and our place in it. That is solved by learning, not by killing.

I agree that belief in gods is a “natural” thing, it is almost certainly an adaptation that improved the survival chances of people living in ancient tribal communities. It has been the overcoming of religious hegemony in the past few centuries that has allowed us to improve our lot as a species in so many respects, and now that we are a global community rather than tribal, religion is downright dangerous. Obviously the most dangerous one is islam where you have the violence of Mo's violently conquering tribe and made-up abd conflicting excuses for atrocity written down as holy writ, but played out on a global scale, not just on the scale of one geographical region.

Stuart

[princess]

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2011,09:40)

Quote (princess @ July 31 2011,02:48) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:32) Quote So now your wisdom supercedes the wisdom of God? Your god, pretty much BD. Quote Where have you ever read that we should never suffer or die in this lifetime? where is it written that you should deny one of food and water. Quote How is it hell or heaven be decided except for the judgement of individuals being exposed through life experience and actions? What does this have to do with a young child BD, absolutely nothing. How are you blaming evil on God?

Which god are your referring to BD?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ July 31 2011,14:43)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 30 2011,13:20) religions are only enacted upon by religious people hence killing all religious people equals the end of religion and don't you want to put an end to religion? You see my point? Perhaps yo shouldn't argue for the elimination of religion because you might cause someone to murder. The real question is why do you even argue against religion at all? If you are correct and God doesn't exist then humans would still be following a natural drive to believe in God otherwise it would not occur. I am not a muslim, so my thinking is not like those Somali terrorists who will allow people to die to promote their ideology, or the other muslims terrorists who kill people because the koran gives them permission.  Your suggestion would be so trivially wrong to anyone who has come to know the nature of my posts here.  Obviously I believe that religious belief is based upon ignorance and a lack of consideration of the universe and our place in it.  That is solved by learning, not by killing. I agree that belief in gods is a “natural” thing, it is almost certainly an adaptation that improved the survival chances of people living in ancient tribal communities.  It has been the overcoming of religious hegemony in the past few centuries that has allowed us to improve our lot as a species in so many respects, and now that we are a global community rather than tribal, religion is downright dangerous.  Obviously the most dangerous one is islam where you have the violence of Mo's violently conquering tribe and made-up abd conflicting excuses for atrocity written down as holy writ, but played out on a global scale, not just on the scale of one geographical region. Stuart

Again, if this is a natural evolution then the inevitable conclusion would also be natural. You see STU if you don't belive in God then you should accept the fact that this function of belief as disturbing as it may be to you is serving its natural purpose and being that would be the case, how can you declare that what you don't like about it is not the correct evolutionary path.

It is fire that tempers steel

[Author]

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