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Hi All
All these threads that Jack keeps creating are becoming redundant!
I am beginning to think that this is a diversional tactic to confuse the readers!
So instead of answering Jacks previous post, I have already addressed his comments on another thread with the following…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32) TO ALL: The purpose of this topic is to stimulate my trinitarian brothers here to think more orthodox in their trinitarianism.
Seriously Jack, do you want to go down this road? What makes you think that you are a teacher over your Trinitarian brothers that you even say this? What is the purpose of all these threads Jack? Is it diversion?Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
Trinitarianism has always held to the belief that God is three persons making up one substance. Each person is distinct from the other both in His person and His acts.
Exactly!Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32) I had said that the coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 was a coming to Israel in Zechariah's own time and that it had nothing to do with the coming of Christ.
So because you say it is, that makes it so? Jack how is it that you can pick and choose in OT scripture where the Father or Jesus are spoken of? Your argument is circular because Zech can be interpreted as Jesus because the Father doesn’t have feet does he? God is Spirit right?So who is it that takes on form as the “image of the invisible God” Jack? Who was it that spoke to Moses in the bush? Who was it that came down to Sodom and Gomorrah? Who was it that claimed to be the “I Am”? Who was “the rock that followed them in the wilderness”?
What are you saying Jack? Are you saying that the Father does anything without Jesus or the Spirit or that Jesus does anything without the Father and the Spirit? They are “One God” remember? Your argument is circular because Zech 14 can be Jesus and in fact the context demands it be.
And it shall be in that day, “that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem“; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zech 14:9
Tell us Jack, according to the above scriptures, did “living waters go” out from Jerusalem in Zechariahs day? Did the Father set up a throne and become King over all the earth? No Jack this is the New Jerusalem where the living waters flow and Jesus is the King!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
Below is WJ's reply:WorshippingJesus said to the thinker:
Quote You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming! Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.
My trinitarian brother is confusing the two persons here. Below is my reply:Quote I also said that Zechariah's prophecy referred to Jehovah's coming in Zechariah's own time. Did you catch that I said that Keith? It had nothing to do with Christ's coming in ad70. Zechariah 1:1-3 says that Jehovah would return to Israel. Jehovah came to Israel many times in their old testament history. So the prophecy of Zechariah 14 is pre-messianic. Start listening please!
Nice diversion Jack, but that is not what happened at all.I had said…
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,16:15) And you totally skipped over this… … and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
Jack, when did all the saints return with the Father?
Jacks response was…Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,17:17) The “saints” He came with were His holy angels: “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27
thinker
Then I said…Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2009,02:02) You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming! Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.
So my point to Jack was that the Holy Angels in the scripture that Jack quotes are “Jesus” Angels and not the Fathers in the verse. So I gave him another scripture as proof…“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27
And also this…
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “”See, THE LORD IS COMING WITH THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF HIS HOLY ONES (AV saints)” to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Jude 1:14,15
But Jack just ignores this and goes about to create a diversion by creating another thread to detract from my points!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
WJ again confuses the two persons and their acts:
No Jack, it is you that confuses the two for claiming that “Living waters” flowed out of Jerusalem in Zechariah’s day and that the Father returned with the saints and put his feet on Mount Olives!Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
WJ:Quote … and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5 My reply:
This happened many times in Israel's old testament history. MOSES SAID THAT JEHOVAH CAME FROM MOUNT SINAI WITH ALL HIS SAINTS (ANGELS), Deuteronomy 33:2-3.
Quote 2 And he said: “The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came with ten thousands of saints;
From His right hand
Came a fiery law for them.3 Yes, He loves the people;
All His saints are in Your hand;
They sit down at Your feet;
Everyone receives Your words.
Moses said that Jehovah came from Sinai with ten thousands of His saints. Jesus said that “no man has ascended into heaven.” So this must have been angels Keith. It says also that He has “feet” just like in the prophecy of Zechariah 14.
Jacks interpretation of the above is at best ambiguous! Others disagree with him.Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary concerning Deut 33:2 states…
ten thousands of saints–rendered by some, “with the ten thousand of Kadesh,” or perhaps better still, “from Meribah” [EWALD]. Source
The Adam Clarke Commentary s concerning Deut 33:2 states…
The next place is Paran, where the glory of the Lord appeared before all the children of Israel, Numbers 14:10.
“Instead of he came with ten thousand saints, by which our translators have rendered meribeboth kodesh, Dr. Kennicott reads Meribah-Kadesh, the name of a place”: for we find that, towards the end of forty years, the Israelites came to Kadesh, Numbers 20:1, which was also called Meribah, on account of their contentious opposition to the determinations of God in their favour, Numbers 20:13; and there the glory of the Lord again appeared, as we are informed Numbers 20:6. These four places, Sinai, Seir, Paran, and Meribah-Kadesh, mentioned by Moses in the text, are the identical places where God manifested his glory in a fiery appearance, the more illustriously to proclaim his special providence over and care of Israel. SourceBut Jack teaches his view as facts! Yet it is ambiguous at best. So let’s look at it closer.
The Hebrew word for “saints” in verse Deut 33:2 is Strong's H6944 – qodesh which is defined as… 1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness a) apartness, sacredness, holiness 1) of God 2) of places 3) of things b) set-apartness, separateness
However we see that Deut 33:3 the Hebrew word for “saints” is not the same word but is “Strong's H6918 – qadowsh which is defined as… 1) sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart
It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!
Bingo, there it is.
The saints (qadowsh) that sat at Jehovah’s feet are obviously the children of Israel, men and not Angels. It is the same word in Zech 14:5 … and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints (qadowsh) with thee. Zech 14:5
Yet Jack says the saints in Zech 14:5 are the Fathers Angels!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
Do you think trinitarians have the license to make every reference to Jehovah about Christ?
What is this Jack? You now want to pit the “anti-Trinitarians” against me to support your view? This is kind of ridiculous since they do not believe that any of the references to Jehovah is Jesus!
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
The coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 is no more Messianic then the coming of Jehovah from Mount Sinai with all His saints in Moses' day.
So you say, yet you have no proof and refuse to address the facts!Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)
Let the trinitarians here get back to a more orthodox trinitarianism. WJ is accusing me of sounding like the anti-trinitarians when it is him who confuses the two persons in their names and their acts.thinker
This is circular Jack, simply because if one instance of Jehovah is Jesus then all instances of Jehovah can be Jesus since he is the “Invisible image of the invisible God”, then it is more likely that when Jehovah appears to men it is Jesus!WJ
Hi WJ,
He seems to believe if you throw enough mud at a wall some of it will stick.
But it is still mud.For Karmarie,
K,
Please read my posts throughout this thread. Isaiah's new earth is clearly not what the futurists say it will be. This is because they do not understand the book of Revelation.
KJ
Hi KJ,
Is your need to start new, perhaps trivial threads, all just diversion from the elephant in the room, the trinity folly?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2010,09:40) Hi KJ,
Is your need to start new, perhaps trivial threads, all just diversion from the elephant in the room, the trinity folly?
Nick,It would be nice if you would answer why Isaiah speaks of the presence of sin and death in the new earth (65-66). Then I would know that you are teachable.
KJ
Hi KJ,
But you are not a teacher as you do not yet know God and His Son.
Indeed there will also be leaves from the tree of life given for the healing of the nations.[Rev 22. Ez 47]Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 15 2009,18:53) As I said it took me 20 years to shed off all the tenets of futurism. I have been a solid preterist for 8 years now. thinker
Hi Thinker,You mentioned age to me, but still haven't said how old you are?
Minimum age (to understand futerism) of 10 + 20 + 8 = 38;
thus you are at least 38; So how old are you?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 17 2009,08:10) Hi All All these threads that Jack keeps creating are becoming redundant!
I am beginning to think that this is a diversional tactic to confuse the readers!
So instead of answering Jacks previous post, I have already addressed his comments on another thread…
WJ
Hi WJ,Now you know why he changed his name from thinker to Kangaroo,
because he stopped thinking, and he hops around issues in avoidance.Hi KJ,
Sorry, I just read this thread.
You said..
Quote So you can see that the futurists really don't have anything solid to support their theory that Christ will return to earth. Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
Please produce just one new testament scripture which says that Christ will return to earth. There is not one new testament scripture. The theory that Christ will return to earth is a figment of the futurist's imagination!I agree with you here, Jesus does not set foot on the earth, his people rise to meet him in the air.
“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
There is the earthly and there is the Spiritual, Spiritual things arent earthly.
1st Corinthians 15
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
The millenium is now, the earth has been filled with the knowledge of God and his Son, the Gospel age.
Soon the end will come, 2nd Peter..
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Then is the Judgment.
Karmarie said:
Quote The millenium is now, the earth has been filled with the knowledge of God and his Son, the Gospel age.
k,The “millenniums” were the old testament period. The new earth is now. This is the biblical order.
I am glad that we partially agree on Christ's coming. The futurists cling to one old testament verse in Zechariah where it says that “His [Jehovah's] feet shall stand on the mount of Olives.” But this was apocalyptic for an old testament coming of jehiovah. There were many of those and they were spoken about in similar anthropomorphic language.
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not from here.” He also said, “Then they shall see the sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN.”
This was accomplished in ad70. They saw a universal sign across the sky that indicated that He had returned. What that “sign” was we do not know.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2010,07:18) Karmarie said: Quote The millenium is now, the earth has been filled with the knowledge of God and his Son, the Gospel age.
k,The “millenniums” were the old testament period. The new earth is now. This is the biblical order.
I am glad that we partially agree on Christ's coming. The futurists cling to one old testament verse in Zechariah where it says that “His [Jehovah's] feet shall stand on the mount of Olives.” But this was apocalyptic for an old testament coming of jehiovah. There were many of those and they were spoken about in similar anthropomorphic language.
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not from here.” He also said, “Then they shall see the sign of the Son of Man IN HEAVEN.”
This was accomplished in ad70. They saw a universal sign across the sky that indicated that He had returned. What that “sign” was we do not know.
KJ
Hi KJWe do partialy agree, you need to look into Amillenialism, its closer to what you say, the only real difference….The day of the Lord, return of Christ, is still to come.
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