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Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 10 2009,05:37) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2009,18:08) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:16) Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth? 
I see these as two seperate events with the “catching up” preceeding the second coming of Yeshua….
And your scriptural basis is…? Paul said that the living are caught up AFTER His return:“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
thinker
Hi TT,
The dead are raised first and then the living join with King Jesus in the air.
How did you get confused again?Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,13:45) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Because the clouds are the place of meeting just as a general when he calls his warriors to war their meeting place is at base.
Keith,
Not likely. The Greek “en” may also be rendered “through”. They go upward through the clouds to meet Him.
What war? You have said that Peter teaches that when the Lord returns this earth will be destroyed. Are they going to come back down and fight on the new earth?
Jack
JackYou are getting his second coming mixed up with the great white throne judgment at the end of the millineum when he makes all things New! The day of the Lord is a thousand year period!
And you totally skipped over this…
… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
Jack, when did all the saints return with the Father?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2009,08:15) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,13:45) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Because the clouds are the place of meeting just as a general when he calls his warriors to war their meeting place is at base.
Keith,
Not likely. The Greek “en” may also be rendered “through”. They go upward through the clouds to meet Him.
What war? You have said that Peter teaches that when the Lord returns this earth will be destroyed. Are they going to come back down and fight on the new earth?Jack
JackYou are getting his second coming mixed up with the great white throne judgment at the end of the millineum when he makes all things New! The day of the Lord is a thousand year period!
And you totally skipped over this…
… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
Jack, when did all the saints return with the Father?
WJ
Keith,
I am a former futurist. I have nothing mixed up. The “great white throne judgment” is the one and only judgment which began with Christ's first coming and culminated in ad70. Jesus said, “NOW is the judgment of this world” (John 12:31).Peter puts the day of the Lord at the time of the destruction of the earth and the creation of the new earth. So again I ask: What war? You say that there are no sinners on the new earth.
There is no thousand year interval between the Lord's coming and the destruction of the earth and the creation of the new earth. This is a figment of the futurist's imagination.
The futurists don't have any of the biblical chronology right. They are wrong about all of it.
The “saints” He came with were His holy angels:
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27
thinker
Hi TT,
So adjust the meanings to make them fit when jammed into your wierd dogma?The Son will judge all when he has returned, has met with the saints in the air and has completed his cleanup of earth in one biblical day.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2009,09:23) Hi TT,
So adjust the meanings to make them fit when jammed into your wierd dogma?The Son will judge all when he has returned, has met with the saints in the air and has completed his cleanup of earth in one biblical day.
Nick,
Jesus told the Jews that the word He had spoken to them would judge them. He came as judge. “For judgment I am come into this world.”The judgment was concerned only with His own generation. All other judgment is through the gospel. Each man under the gospel dispensation is judged according to belief or unbelief. They just go straight to their reward when they die.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,17:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2009,08:15) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,13:45) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Because the clouds are the place of meeting just as a general when he calls his warriors to war their meeting place is at base.
Keith,
Not likely. The Greek “en” may also be rendered “through”. They go upward through the clouds to meet Him.
What war? You have said that Peter teaches that when the Lord returns this earth will be destroyed. Are they going to come back down and fight on the new earth?Jack
JackYou are getting his second coming mixed up with the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium when he makes all things New! The day of the Lord is a thousand year period!
And you totally skipped over this…
… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
Jack, when did all the saints return with the Father?
WJ
Keith,
I am a former futurist. I have nothing mixed up. The “great white throne judgment” is the one and only judgment which began with Christ's first coming and culminated in ad70. Jesus said, “NOW is the judgment of this world” (John 12:31).Peter puts the day of the Lord at the time of the destruction of the earth and the creation of the new earth. So again I ask: What war? You say that there are no sinners on the new earth.
There is no thousand year interval between the Lord's coming and the destruction of the earth and the creation of the new earth. This is a figment of the futurist's imagination.
The futurists don't have any of the biblical chronology right. They are wrong about all of it.
The “saints” He came with were His holy angels:
“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,17:17) Peter puts the day of the Lord at the time of the destruction of the earth and the creation of the new earth. So again I ask: What war? You say that there are no sinners on the new earth. My contention is that the New Heavens and New earth has not yet come and will not until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ (the millennium) which you say had happened before Jesus even came in the OT.
How can he reign for 1000 years in the earth unless he already came?
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for “the old heaven and the old earth **had disappeared**“. And the sea was also gone. Rev 21:1
Then he says when the New heaven and New earth has disappeared…
He will remove all of their sorrows, and “there will be no more death” or sorrow or crying or pain. “For the old world and its evils are gone forever.” Rev 21:4
Notice Jack, he says that the heaven and earth has “disappeared” and “the old world and its evils are gone forever“!
You are telling us this has happened and that there is still death and sorrow and crying and pain in the New Earth, when the passage says these things will be no more when the New heaven and new earth comes. Amazing!
Jack how do you explain away there is no more death? The wages of sin is death. If there is still sin in the New heaven and new earth then the scriptures are a lie!
But we know that the scriptures do not lie don't we?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,17:17) The “saints” He came with were His holy angels: “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27
thinker
You should know you cannot slip this one by me! Stop with all the spin bro!Jack, the scripture you quote says the “Son of Man” is coming in “the Glory” of his Father with his (Jesus) Holy Angels!
”The Son of Man will send out his angels”, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. Matt 13:41
By the way Jack, notice that he will root out of his Kingdom all that causes sin and does evil, but you say that there will be sin in the New Earth?
You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming!
Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.
… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
The Hebrew word for “saints” is Strong's H6918 – qadowsh and is defined as… 1) sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart
It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “”See, THE LORD IS COMING WITH THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF HIS HOLY ONES (AV saints)” to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Jude 1:14,15
Jack, the Father never at anytime said he was coming to the earth with his saints, did he?
Zech 14 clearly reveals the Lord Jesus coming to the earth with his saints and fulfilling the Angels prophesy when he said…
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? “THIS SAME JESUS, WHO HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, WILL COME BACK IN THE SAME WAY YOU HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN.“ Acts 1:10, 11
WJ
Jesus returns with the righteous to the Mount of Olives. (Zec 14:3-9)
This location was foretold. (Lk 24:50,51 (Bethany is on a slope of the Mount of Olives), Ac 1:10,11)
New Jerusalem descends to earth. (Rev 21:2,3,10)
Wicked dead are raised
The second resurrection (Ac 24:15, Rev 20:5)
The resurrection of condemnation (Jn 5:28,29)
Satan is loosed (from chains of circumstance) and deceives the wicked into attacking the holy city. (Rev 20:7-9)
Note: The fate of Satan and the wicked in Rev 20:9,10 is parenthetical and occurs at the end of the great white throne judgment.
The executive judgment of the wicked (great white throne judgment) occurs. (Rev 20:11-15)
Against the wicked (Rev 20:5,12)
Note: The book of life contains only the righteous (the fruit of the first resurrection). (Rev 20:6)
For the benefit of the wicked (Jude 1:14,15)
Jesus' glory is reviewed in panoramic majesty (His perfect life and perfect death) (Isa 40:5)
The wicked behold the enormity of their personal and corporate guilt.
Every knee shall bow (God is vindicated before the entire universe). (Isa 45:22,23, Ro 14:11, Php 2:10,11)
Wicked are destroyed by fire (the second death) (Mal 4:1-3, Mt 25:41, Rev 11:18, Rev 20:9,15, Rev 21:7,8, Rev 22:14,15)
Note on Rev 22:14,15: The wicked are outside of the city and dead (compare Ro 6:23)
Satan and his angels are also destroyed by this fire. (Jer 51:25, Eze 28:17-19, Mt 25:41, Rev 20:10)
The new earth (heaven) is created. (Isa 65:17, 2Pe 3:10-13, Rev 21:1-5, Rev 21:9-27, Rev 22:1-5, Isa 11:9)
hi all
first the jugement stated with the dead of Christ;
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through GodEph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
Eph 3:15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
Eph 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
Eph 3:19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.Col;1-9
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Iwould recommend that to thing back for a bit ,and think that it does not matters wath our thinking is we are powerless to do anything ,but wath we all can do is trying to understand God way and with the truth he has put in our haerts look for that understanding in is WORD.
Constitutionalist said:
Quote Jesus returns with the righteous to the Mount of Olives. (Zec 14:3-9)
Con,
I thought you were an anti-trinitarian?It says that “Jehovah” shall come to the Mt. of Olives. Have you changed your mind? Chapter one says that “Jehovah” would return to them (1:1-3). It had reference to a returning of Jehovah in Zechariah's own time. Jehovah came to Israel many times in their old testament history.
Anyway, I am shocked an anti-trinitarian would use Zechariah 14 as proof of Christ's return. Jesus said not to believe anyone who says that He will be “here or there.” In John 18 He said that His kingdom was not of this world and “NOT FROM HERE.” Jesus was standing on Jerusalem's soil when He said that His kingdom was “not from here.” He said that His kingdom was “not from here” after riding into Jerusalem as King.
Are you a trinitarian now?
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Jack, the scripture you quote says the “Son of Man” is coming in “the Glory” of his Father with his (Jesus) Holy Angels!
Keith,
It does NOT say that He would come back to earth does it?
WJ:Quote By the way Jack, notice that he will root out of his Kingdom all that causes sin and does evil, but you say that there will be sin in the New Earth?
Keith,
If you read the vision's of John about the new earth carefully you will see that sinners are kept outside the gates of the city. They are on the new earth but they are not in the kingdom (the New Jerusalem).Quote 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
It says that only the righteous are allowed to enter into the city. OUTSIDE THE GATES OF THE CITY ARE SINNERS. THEY ARE NOT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. THEY ARE OUTSIDE THE GATES OF THE CITY. BUT THEY HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE OF FIRE (21:8).The city is the church (or kingdom). Only the righteous are within her gates.
WJ:
Quote You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming! Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.
I also said that Zechariah's prophecy referred to Jehovah's coming in Zechariah's own time. Did you catch that I said that Keith? It had nothing to do with Christ's coming in ad70. Zechariah 1:1-3 says that Jehovah would return to Israel. Jehovah came to Israel many times in their old testament history. So the prophecy of Zechariah 14 is pre-messianic. Start listening please!WJ:
Quote … and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
This happened many times in Israel's old testament history. MOSES SAID THAT JEHOVAH CAME FROM MOUNT SINAI WITH ALL HIS SAINTS (ANGELS), Deuteronomy 33:2-3.Quote 2 And he said: “The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came with ten thousands of saints;
From His right hand
Came a fiery law for them.3 Yes, He loves the people;
All His saints are in Your hand;
They sit down at Your feet;
Everyone receives Your words.Moses said that Jehovah came from Sinai with ten thousands of His saints. Jesus said that “no man has ascended into heaven.” So this must have been angels Keith. It says also that He has “feet” just like in the prophecy of Zechariah 14.
Do you think trinitarians have the license to make every reference to Jehovah about Christ? The coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 is no more Messianic then the coming of Jehovah in Moses' day.
Stop thinking like a futurist brother.
Jack
Hi TT,
Your brothers who share your fantasies are getting thin on the ground.
Jesus will return just as he left and those who pierced him will mourn.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,08:13) Hi TT,
Your brothers who share your fantasies are getting thin on the ground.
Jesus will return just as he left and those who pierced him will mourn.
Nick,
You're correct about my trinitarian brothers. You're incorrect in saying that Christ will return. He kept His promise to His own generation and He returned to them.thinker
Hi:
I want to point out a couple of things in the below listed scriptures which may help us understand about Isaiah's new earth.
Quote Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Verse 9 I believe explains verses 6 through 9 by saying, ” for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” Therefore, verses 6-9 must be symbolic of the various dispositions of man being at peace with each other.
Verse 10 is describing the current time from the time of the first gentile convert until the present time as the gospel is being preached to the nations.
The following verses deal with the Jews being brought back into the land of Israel, and has been happening full scale since the Zionist movement in 1880 until the very present.
Quote Isa 11:11 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,11:30) Hi TT,
We are still waiting.
But you think he has already and you missed out?
Nick,
As I said it took me 20 years to shed off all the tenets of futurism. I have been a solid preterist for 8 years now. The longer I am a preterist the more difficult it becomes for me to understand futurists.How is it that futurists believe that God will keep His promises when He didn't keep it to the first generation of Christians? Many futurists admit that Christ's coming was the promise to the first generation of Christians. Yet they say that He did not come. If He did not come when promised then how do they know He will come at all?
I don't get the futurists. I guess it's just how I am psychologically made up. I was once promised a promotion and when the time came for it I was I was denied it. I never trusted my superior after that. My distrust proved to be founded in reality and I eventually left that company. Maybe you can be lied to in such a way and still trust a person after that. But I can't trust the person after that.
So I must insist that Jesus came back to His own generation as He promised. If He didn't then I cannot trust Him. So I don't understand the futurists especially those who admit that the coming of Christ was the hope of the first generation of Christians.
thinker
Marty said:
Quote Verse 9 I believe explains verses 6 through 9 by saying, ” for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” Hi Marty,
First, the word “earth” is a misleading translation. It should read, “for the land shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.” So it is not speaking about a time of some universal, global outreach of the word of God. The futurists are engaging in a logical fallacy called the fallacy of generalization. It is merely in reference to the land of Israel.This type of language is used also in Ezekiel. We know that it was fulfilled for God told Ezekiel to tell the people that it would be fulfilled “in your days.”
Quote 21 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb that you people have about the land of Israel, which says, ‘The days are prolonged, and every vision fails’? 23 Tell them therefore, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will lay this proverb to rest, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel.” But say to them, THE DAYS ARE AT HAND AND THE FULFILLMENT OF EVERY VISION. 24 For no more shall there be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25 For I am the LORD. I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass; it will no more be postponed;FOR IN YOUR DAYS, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it,” says the Lord GOD.’”
26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27 “Son of man, look, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many days from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ 28 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “None of My words will be postponed any more, but the word which I speak will be done,” says the Lord GOD.’”God instructed Ezekiel to tell the people that the days are “at hand” and the fulfilment of “EVERY vision.” He said that the days would “no more be postponed” but were to happen “in YOUR days.” Yet the futurists tell us that the valley of dry bones prophecy speaks about the future resurrection and that the language about the earth being filled with the knowledge of the Lord has not happened yet.
They commit the fallacy of generalization. The futurists deny the plain language regarding the timing and they fail to see that the visions were concerned with Israel alone and not the whole world. The Hebrew “eretz” is not a reference to the whole earth and should be translated “land” and must refer to a local matter. It is indeed translated “land” in many places in the old testament. There were many times in Israel's old covenant history that the “land was filled with the knowledge of the Lord” and there was no global knowledege of the Lord.
God said that the fulfillment of “EVERY vision” was to occur in their days including the valley of dry bones vision and the visions about the whole land being fulfilled with the knowledge of the Lord. If the futurists would just look at the context they will note that the dry bones coming to life was about spiritual restoration. This was fulfilled in THEIR days. We know that Israel apostasized again after that.
thinker
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