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This topic is based on an interesting part of scripture. I am not going to answer it or even attempt to in this post. Instead I am going to say something that I have often thought about that could be related to the question in the opening post.
If Adam and Eve had not sinned and man increased and multiplied on the Earth, then it would be only a matter of time before the Earth would not be big enough to cater for the population and it would happen pretty quickly.
Let’s say that every couple would have had multiple children. Then imagine the moment the Earth was completely full of people. Then every extra kid would be one too many. But with everyone extending their families and with no death, it would be in a very short space of time that the load would become too much. In fact the population of the Earth would double in a very small space of time. It is called exponential growth. Then that would double and so on.
So what is the answer. Well it would have to be assumed that God had a plan that obviously catered for this eventuality.
Now couple this with another puzzle. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, then would humans would be flesh and blood forever. Yet they sin, and through God’s grace, man is able to achieve angel like status. Perhaps even higher. He becomes a spirit being that rules and reigns with his son. So does that mean that sin gave us greater opportunity?
Okay. So what did God have in mind. Perhaps even in his perfect plan, man was destined to live in the flesh only for a time and then to be exalted higher as a spirit being. A sort of death (which means separation) but not the cursed death of the soul, rather a separation of soul from the flesh body to be united with the spirit body. After all it does say that the flesh comes first and then the spirit.
I thought that this might cross over some of the points in this discussion such as why men appear to die in the new Earth. Or it could be as someone said here, that its a truth, but not to be taken in the context of surrounding verses.
Hi Kerwin,
I believe in Amilenialism, a belief I arrived at with God’s help. It is the view I later discovered was held by the Eastern Orthodox Church and Lutheran, and to some degree the Catholics.
So in our belief, when the end of the world comes, the world will be destroyed with fire, and after that will be eternity.
Jesus said to Martha when Lazarus died:
“Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Do you believe that, Kerwin?
“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1st Thess 4:13)“The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up” (2nd Peter 3:10)
Peter continues: “But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”
The Messianic age is now and has been since Christ came, for those who receive.
Camellia.
You believe in amilenialism; but infortunateley for you; Jesus believe in post melinialism.
For scripture says this,and we need to use decernment of scripture.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION AT THE COMING. THEN THE SAINTS WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST FOR A 1000YEARS ,BUT NOT BEFORE THE COMING.
AFTER THE JUDGEMENT OF THE SAINTSRevelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT; SO WILL STILL BE IN THEIR GRAVES FOR ANOTHER 1000YEARS.Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
THE FIRST RESURRECTION HAS NOT HAPPENED YET,BUT IS COMING.**THEN** THE SAINTS WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST.
NO SAINTS ARE RULING NOW, BECAUSE THE COMING IS NOT YET. THE PRIESTS AND PASTORS DONT RULES US NOW; THANK GOD FOR THAT.Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
THE KINGDOM IS NOT HERE YET.HOW CAN IT EXPIRE SOON? THE JUDGEMENT OF THE MARK IS NOT YET.
THE WAR OF ARMAGEDDON HAS NOT COME YET; HOW CAN SATAN BE IN PRISON?
WHEN DID THIS WAR OF ARMAGEDDON HAPPEN? IN WHAT YEAR?
IF NOT; WHY IS SATAN IN PRISON BEFORE THAT WAR? THINGS ARE TURNED UPSIDE DOWN.DURING THAT WAR;SATAN WILL BE PUT IN PRISON.
THAT WAR IS NOT YET; ALSO SATAN NOT IN PRISON YET.CHRIST’S BIRTH IS HIS FIRST COMING; NOT TO RULE AS KING. MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.
SATAN IS THE GOD OF THIS WORLD.wakeup.
wakeup.
Kerwin, further to my last post,
Rev.21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband;
3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them;
4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”Camellia.
You believe in amilenialism; but infortunateley for you; Jesus believe in post melinialism.
In your opinion Wakeup.
I’ll go through the rest of your writing tomorrow.
If Adam and Eve had not sinned and man increased and multiplied on the Earth, then it would be only a matter of time before the Earth would not be big enough to cater for the population and it would happen pretty quickly.
Let’s say that every couple would have had multiple children. Then imagine the moment the Earth was completely full of people. Then every extra kid would be one too many. But with everyone extending their families and with no death, it would be in a very short space of time that the load would become too much. In fact the population of the Earth would double in a very small space of time. It is called exponential growth. Then that would double and so on.
Hi T8
Good point. This gives us even more reason to acknowledge that God knew exactly what he was planning before creation even began.
So what is the answer. Well it would have to be assumed that God had a plan that obviously catered for this eventuality.
Exactly! And it’s a certainty he put everything into consideration before going ahead with his plan.
Now couple this with another puzzle. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, then would humans would be flesh and blood forever. Yet they sin, and through God’s grace, man is able to achieve angel like status. Perhaps even higher. He becomes a spirit being that rules and reigns with his son. So does that mean that sin gave us greater opportunity?
Yes it does give us greater opportunity.
I ponder sometimes over the angels that fell. They started off surrounded only by truth and holiness, living in a perfect habitation, and when sin entered them, there was no forgiveness for them, just damnation.
We on the other hand, started off on the wrong end of the stick, born to sin, with our habitation being surrounded by evil,
yet the saints will be one with God, esteemed higher than the angels.Okay. So what did God have in mind. Perhaps even in his perfect plan, man was destined to live in the flesh only for a time and then to be exalted higher as a spirit being. A sort of death (which means separation) but not the cursed death of the soul, rather a separation of soul from the flesh body to be united with the spirit body. After all it does say that the flesh comes first and then the spirit.
It’s looking as though God planned to create spiritual children for himself that chose to serve him as a preference, other than being made like robots.
We have never seen God nor heard his voice, yet we believe in him implicitly, and seek his will through his word, trying always to be close to him, please him, and willing to go through the fire for him.
This is the real type of worship God wants.
It seems to me that the angels good and bad, were created mainly as a tool for our benefits and for his pleasure.I thought that this might cross over some of the points in this discussion such as why men appear to die in the new Earth. Or it could be as someone said here, that its a truth, but not to be taken in the context of surrounding verses.
The new earth can only be made after the earth is melted, because all that is left will be changed to spirit, clean and pure, and presented as a finished job by Christ to God.
This is where the confusion is….Because God slips in the “New heavens, and new earth prophecy” out of sync, many have made a doctrine that this will happen at the coming, and get it confused with what he’s revealing will happen during the millennium, …and just don’t realise that there are future generations yet to come in for a thousand year time period, but living in better conditions. The melting of the earth is after this, so a new heavens and earth can be inhabited for all the spiritual now, because flesh is done away with.Journey,
Isaiah 65:17-20 seems to disagree as if it is written according the the way time flows the new heaven and new earth come before a period when there are both sinners in the earth and humans die. That period could be the 1000 years as I might be mistaken about there death or dying during that time and perhaps there is also those that sin. The thing us the time scale of Revelations seems to place the new earth and the new heaven afterwards.
Spiritually the 1000 years will be a new heaven and a new earth but Revelations seems to speak of a physical change as well as the new earth has greatly reduced water coverage.
T8,
Now couple this with another puzzle. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, then would humans would be flesh and blood forever.
I do not follow the idea that human being become anything but flesh and bone so I believe human beings will flesh and blood forever but not the flesh and blood of this world of sin. Instead the bodies will be freed from corruption. It will be a new world where entropy does not tent to increase because the increase of entropy is corruption as it leads to the heat death of universe. That is a change in the laws of the universe at least to the extent to balance it.
I look at the idea of a body compose of spirit as a teaching that over time evolved from Gnosticism and the misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 15:14 which is speaking instead of a flesh and bone body under the authority of the Spirit of God vs one that is not. The later being called a natural body in some translations.
Except to acknowledge my disagree I do not see where it is relevant to this discussion.
I believe God has set into actions certain things to control our population when it approaches certain limits and that these factors are in action even to day. Satan seems to also work for the same goal though his means are evil.
It is my thought that God always intended man to eat of both the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and of the tree of life but at that time man was not mature enough. After all he set up guards to keep man from eating of the tree of life at that time and yet later will allow man to eat of the tree of life as he desires.
I thus see humanity returning to the Paradise as a more mature and therefore wiser people.
Camilla,
I believe in Amilenialism, a belief I arrived at with God’s help. It is the view I later discovered was held by the Eastern Orthodox Church and Lutheran, and to some degree the Catholics.
I disagree because the 1000 year reign was an established teaching at the time Jesus walked the earth though the 1000 year is not to be taken literally. The Jews still call is the Messianic Age. I do not think we are living it it now but I cannot discard the possibility considering Isaiah’s words I am asking about.
Judgement day would occur after The Messianic Age.
The argument for the 1000 years is that the Church is the city of Jerusalem and that Jesus Christ rules it though the Spirit of God. Very few sinner live over a century but if I have known and of the righteous they are not living any longer. The only way I see the current world as a new world is because of those things associated with technological advance. The saints do not literally rule the world.
Cammilia,
My understanding of the new heaven and new earth do come from Revelations 21 but I acknowledge prophecy can be even harder to understand than other Scriptures.
Kerwin, I am on my mobile, excuse lack of quotes, paraphrasing and typos.
Things in the old testament often have a spiritual meaning rather than a physical meaning. If this is the case and you are after the meaning of a specific old testament verse, such as the one in question, then the new testament can (and should) give us its true meaning. The new heavens and new earth are described in the new testament by Jesus and the apostles.
When Jesus returns, the heavens and earth will ‘melt in the fervent heat’ by means of nature most likely, as water was used in the flood. Those who are God’s people will be the only thing remaining alive, as Paul says ‘those who remain alive…. ‘, then we will ‘rise to meet Jesus in the air-so we will forever be with the Lord’ (this would be the first resurrection)-heaven and earth fled away. Then is judgment day when all the dead are raised and judged on what they have done. Eternity has begun, and there is a new heaven and a new earth. There will be no dyeing, suffering, sadness, pain, or death in the new heavens and the new earth. So, there you see the new testament explains that part of the old testament, and the “thousand” year messianic age (where there IS death and sinners still) is from Christ’s resurrection when the strongman was bound until today when the strongman (Satan) will be loosed one last time just prior to the coming. ‘So when these things happen, look up because your redemption draws nigh’.
Kerwin, please explain to me what you understand the messianic age to be like.
The Jewish religion look for a physical messianic age, though they could have missed it, as the messianic age is here now IF Jesus is our messiah. We have God as our Father – God is the God of the living. Why be like the Jewish religion – why wait for Jesus to reign – is he not already, to a Christian?
Yes, you could be right that the saints are not ruling as the first resurrection has not happened yet, unless of course the resurrection was spiritual in nature. Rev 1 does tell us however Jesus has made a kingdom of ruling saints.
Camillia,
Kerwin, please explain to me what you understand the messianic age to be like.
To be honest I am not sure since I am still learning and what I think I know is discarded regularly. It was my thought that there was no death and dying during the Messianic Age and that men were not tempted by sin as Satan was imprisoned and therefore there was no need to resist him. This passage from Isaiah does not seem to support that teaching.
Hi Cam,
Those who remain alive refers to the saints who yet live and have not died, not the vestiges of humanity.
I do not follow the idea that human being become anything but flesh and bone so I believe human beings will flesh and blood forever but not the flesh and blood of this world of sin. Instead the bodies will be freed from corruption. It will be a new world where entropy does not tent to increase because the increase of entropy is corruption as it leads to the heat death of universe. That is a change in the laws of the universe at least to the extent to balance it.
I look at the idea of a body compose of spirit as a teaching that over time evolved from Gnosticism and the misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 15:14 which is speaking instead of a flesh and bone body under the authority of the Spirit of God vs one that is not. The later being called a natural body in some translations.
Except to acknowledge my disagree I do not see where it is relevant to this discussion.
Let me explain it further if you do not understand my point as relating to this discussion.
1 Corinthians 15:44
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.…Philippians 3:21
who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.Coupled with Genesis 1:28:
Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the skyObviously you can see what I am saying. If man multiplies, then humanity will run out of room right? It’s simple math. However, if the natural comes first and the spiritual second, then if that principle does not hang on the fall of man, but is a general principle that was going to take place either way whether there was a fall or not, then this could possibly and I am seriously speculating that there will be a type of death in the new earth and heaven. Death means separation and I am not talking about a death of the soul, but a separation of the soul and body in order for an inheritance involving a new body.
Okay I made my point and I don’t think we need to discuss it any further. Just speculating as to how a person can die in the new Earth if that verse sits within the surrounding context. A lot of ‘ifs’, but one thing is for sure, God would not have told man to multiply forever and ever on Earth while they remain eternal beings in flesh. Unless he shrinks them down or makes the earth bigger or some other like explanation.
There is more going on than we have been explicitly taught, that is for sure.
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