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I have been reading the article about the Trinity/Nature of God and had a question as to how this verse fits with the teaching.
ISAIAH 43:10
10 “ You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.If Jesus was brought forth from the Father then how does that work with this verse?
Thanks….
If you look a Bible like the American Standard Version, it says:
“Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah…”
But, to your question:
Jehovah says: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah?
The context answers, No. Please read the context, and this part of the Bible in full.
None of the idolatrous Gentile nations formed a god before Jehovah, because no one existed before Jehovah. Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10)But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god. (Ps. 82:1, 6; John 1:1, NW) At Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is referred to as “mighty God,” just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called “God Almighty.”—Gen. 17:1.
Hi SScott and welcome,
So God is speaking
Is 43.10
” 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. “
God is our God and has always been the God of man and the angels, even of all creation. God calls men and his Servant son to witness to this fact. That alone makes plain that the Son is not or God nor a part of any trinity god.
Other beings are called Elohim or gods including the Son of God but none are or have ever been our God. Even satan is called the god of this world in scripture but I hear no outcry that he too be recognised as our God.
Thus is proven the word in 1 Cor 8
” 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. “
Quote I have been reading the article about the Trinity/Nature of God and had a question as to how this verse fits with the teaching. ISAIAH 43:10
10 “ You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.If Jesus was brought forth from the Father then how does that work with this verse?
Thanks….
Hi Scott! Welcome!
Very Good question brother!
There are many on this site that do not believe that Jesus is diety! They believe that he was formed and had a beginning! But we know that Jesus came forth (he was not Not Formed) from the Father! Jesus was the Word with God and the Word was God and is still the Word and is still God! Jesus is the eternal Spirit of God!
This scripture proves that Jesus had no beginning he was not created or formed for he was and is the creator of **ALL THINGS**.
I am Alpha and Omega…who is, and who was, and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY,” speaks the divine voice at the opening of the book of Revelation. A little later we read, “When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last…” (Rev. 1:17). At the closing of the book the same voice declares, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last…I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things unto you in the churches” (Rev. 22:13,16). Centuries earlier the Lord spoke through the prophet Isaiah, saying, “Thus saith Yahweh, the King of Israel, and his redeemer Yahweh of hosts; I am the first; and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isa. 44:6). Again in Isaiah 48:11-12, “For mine own sake I will do it…and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.” These and a number of other scriptures show that Yahweh is the first and the last, the only God, the God of Israel, the Almighty. In the book of Revelation Jesus Christ is the first and the last, the Almighty. Let the saints of God arise to the wonderful truth that JESUS CHRIST IS THE YAHWEH OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!
People have great difficulty understanding an abstraction, a force, or a spirit. It must be personalized, it must take form, and that is why God has come in the person of Jesus Christ so that we might see Him and see what God is like. That is why in the book of Colossians the apostle Paul says of Christ, “He is the exact likeness of the unseen God — the visible representation of the invisible…for it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him and in and for Him” (Col. 1:15-16). Therefore, the embodiment referred to as Jesus in the physical world, in the atomic world, is the invisible Yahweh who exists in a Spirit or Light World. He is Almighty Creator of everything in heaven and in earth! “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Other scriptures tell us that it was Yahweh who is the great Creator! Glorious, indeed, and wonderful beyond human description is the great truth that the book of Revelation is the unveiling of God-Yahweh-Yahshua — the invisible Almighty God who came to earth as our Lord Jesus Christ!
The great Yahweh appeared to Israel in a cloud and a pillar of fire. He lived in that pillar of fire and led Israel daily. At the dedication of Solomon’s temple He announced His coming as a great cloud that appeared to all the assembly of Israel, so bright and glorious was the cloud of His presence that the ministers could not minister because of the blinding, overwhelming glory. Then one day the same Yahweh was manifested in a virgin born body that was prepared for Him. The God that tabernacled above the tents of Israel, who tabernacled in the temple on mount Moriah, now took on Himself a tent of flesh and tabernacled as a man amongst men. But He was the SAME GOD! The Bible teaches that GOD WAS IN CHRIST. The body, the outward human form, was Jesus, the Son of God. In Him dwelt and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily (Col. 2:9).
Nothing can be plainer than that! Mystery, yes. But actual truth — it can’t be plainer!
No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him — He has revealed Him, brought Him out where He may be seen; He has interpreted Him, and He has made Him known so that he who has seen the Christ has seen the Father (Jn. 1:18; 14:9). The One who walked by the sea of Galilee and through the dusty roads of Palestine was none other than the living God, Yahweh in human form, the Creator who humbled Himself and came into this world. This One who died, who rose again, who ascended up far above all heavens that He might fill all things, who sits upon the throne of the Majesty on high and who has entered into our lives by the power of His Spirit — this Lord Jesus Christ is Himself THE ALMIGHTY! “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending…the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).
I have no desire to dispute doctrines about the Godhead any longer. I am sure each of us has our understanding of God, how God is one and how God is three, and all the rest of it. I don’t want to debate those issues, rather to point out a truth which the Spirit has made very real to my heart. There are many kinds of terminology that we still use that are not the Spirit’s terminology. They are not what the Spirit has witnessed concerning God, but terms that men have coined to express their conception of the Godhead! Many of these terms have come right out of the darkness of religious carnal minds and the Lord’s people have embraced them and parrot them as though they were divine revelation! Christians talk about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.
But, Are these terms necisarrily wrong? No We as well as many other believers on this site use terms that may describe a certain scriptural truth that you may not find that term or word in scripture, but it dosnt mean it isnst true.
The bible dosnt say its wrong to use tobacco, except that we know our bodys are the temple and we shuold not take things into our body that may be harmfull. Or we know by the scriptures that God is everywhere, so we use the term Omnipresent. Is this wrong No! Anyone that says it is I promise if you listen long enough you will find them doing the same thing.
Yes it is true there is not a scripture in the Bible that talks about God the Son. There is not a scripture in the Bible that speaks of God the Holy Ghost! Yet the title “God the Father” appears many, many times throughout the New Testament. “To us,” Paul said, “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him” (I Cor. 8:6).
Jesus is always referred to as the Son of God — not God the Son. Now you say, “Wait a minute, brother , are you telling me Jesus isn’t God?” Not at all! I am saying that He is not called God the Son. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is most often referred to as the Spirit of God — not God the Holy Spirit. God Himself said, “I will send my Spirit; I will pour out my Spirit.” He nowhere said, “God the Holy Spirit will come to you.” Do you see what I mean? We use terminology that has been formulated by the theologians of the church systems, but which are not found in the word of God! We do this to try to explain certain concepts found in the word and very often it creates more confusion than not. .Jesus said that the Father had sent Him, and that t
he Father is God. So to us there is one God who is the Father! The question follows — Was Jesus God? Absolutely! But did you know that the God in Jesus was the Father? What did He say? “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE doeth the works” (Jn. 14:10). Can you imagine GOD saying, “I can of mine own self do nothing?” Yet Jesus confessed that He, of Himself, could do nothing! Only the Father in Him could speak and do the works! So what I am saying is,
THE GOD THAT WAS IN JESUS WAS THE FATHER!
“Great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh” (I Tim. 3:16). Not God the Son manifest in flesh. GOD was manifest in the flesh!
Jesus was NOT Made or CREATED for he was the CREATOR!
However Jesus was the man that was born in a virgin the Son of God and the Son of Man, Who suffered and died that he might bring us back to the Father from whence he came!
BlessingsHi W,
You said
“There are many on this site that do not believe that Jesus is diety! They believe that he was formed and had a beginning! But we know that Jesus came forth (he was not Not Formed) from the Father! Jesus was the Word with God and the Word was God and is still the Word and is still God! Jesus is the eternal Spirit of God!”The confusion is from the elevated traditions of men, not from the Word of God. A DEITY surely is a god that is worshiped. We are not worshipers of the vine we are part of but worship the Gardener just as he does. For us there is ONE GOD and Jesus is not that God but our LORD.
Jn 15
“1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. “The plainest fact in the bible is that Jesus is the SON of God. Those who would say he is still part of a humanly fabricated so called trinity God deny that fact. Sons come from fathers. Since salvation is in the Son we should rather believe God on this matter.
2Peter 1
“16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
1Cor 8
“3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”
The book of Revelation is written
by a man,
from the angel,
from Jesus and
from God
and since all speak in the book and it must be carefully discerned with the help of Spirit.Rev 1
” 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”
You quote God [the Father ]as saying
“”I will send my Spirit; I will pour out my Spirit.”
and yet somehow you make the Spirit of the Father another person??You say
“Jesus was NOT Made or CREATED for he was the CREATOR!”
Did God [the Father] not create all things?
Scripture never calls Jesus the creator.
It never calls Jesus God the Soin or the Spirit God the Spirit either so why would you?
Is it not vital to abide in scripture?
Or rather did not God create all things through Jesus?
Yes.Col 1
“15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Quote “The confusion is from the elevated traditions of men, not from the Word of God. A DEITY surely is a god that is worshiped. We are not worshipers of the vine we are part of but worship the Gardener just as he does. For us there is ONE GOD and Jesus is not that God but our LORD. Hey Nick!
Ok you insist on going on with this argument despite the fact that you will not change me or I you!
I will go one more round with you, but know I have no desire to do this, but for the truths sake I will.
You say:
“The confusion is from the elevated traditions of men, not from the Word of God. A DEITY surely is a god that is worshiped. We are not worshipers of the vine we are part of but worship the Gardener just as he does. For us there is ONE GOD and Jesus is not that God but our LORD.
Explain John 1:1 Tell me Nick without twisting it without adding to it, what does it mean?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and **without him was not anything (including Jesus the Word), made that was made** .
Since we know by this the Word was not created nor formed, because **ALL THINGS** were made by him (The Word) and for him, he did not create himself. Therefore the Word Jesus had no beginning! He was in The Father and came forth from the Father.
Jn 1: 14 And the Word (God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son (the human form that God took upon himself and also glorified in himself), which is in the bosom, (Gr. kolpos {kol'-pos the front of the body between the arms} of the Father, he hath declared him.
The Spirit of Jesus was God in the flesh, the body of Jesus the human part of Jesus, the one who was born in a virgin and grew up like you and I, and grew in the grace and knowledge of The Father God. The man Jesus that said not my will but thine be done!
The man Jesus that said if you’ve seen me you have seen the Father because the Father is in me!
This same man in whom the Father dwelt also died and who rose again and who was received up into Glory and who was Glorified with the Glory of the Father which he had from the beginning(as the Word Of God ) because he came out of the bosom of the Father!
The Bible teaches that GOD WAS IN CHRIST. The body, the outward human form, was Jesus, the Son of God. In Him dwelt and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily (Col. 2:9).
Nothing can be plainer than that! Mystery, yes. But actual truth — it can’t be plainer!**The Word was with God and the Word was God**
You say “For us there is ONE GOD and Jesus is not that God but our LORD.”
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.If I read this correctly then if the Lord God is **ONE LORD** then to call Jesus Lord is breaking the first commandment!
Hi W,
God begat a Son in His divine image in the “beginning”, ie before time, and that Son, the Word was with God in the beginning and all that has life, all creation was made through that Son.Hi W,
Men have changed the scriptures from YHWH to Lord, and this has caused some men to confuse the almighty Lordship of God over all, including the Son, with the delegated Lordship from God of the Son as our Lord.Compare Joseph and the Pharaoh.
Joseph was never Pharaoh but always under his authority.
He was given complete authority to act in his name and authority as if he was Pharaoh.So also with the mongenes Son of God who was sent into the world to work in his Father's name and authority.
Quote Jn 15
“1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. “The plainest fact in the bible is that Jesus is the SON of God. Those who would say he is still part of a humanly fabricated so called trinity God deny that fact. Sons come from fathers. Since salvation is in the Son we should rather believe God on this matter.
Hey Nick!
Was the vine in the Father?
Was the Father in the Vine?
So the husbandman is one with the vine who is one with the Husbandman!
Surely you would not say that because you are in the vine you are not in the Gardener!
You say “We are not worshipers of the vine we are part of but worship the Gardener just as he does. For us there is ONE GOD and Jesus is not that God but our LORD.”
Do you worship the Gardner who is in the vine?
Here you go again, trying to compare deity with humanity!
You say” Sons come from Fathers”
But are Sons the “express image” of their Father?
Do the fathers live in the sons?
These arguments seem a little weak to me Nick! Surely you can do better than this brother!
Hi w,
Why would you dispute with scripture?
There is a Father God and He has a Son.
The Father is the God of the Son.
They are in a family relationship.The Spirit of the Gardener is indeed in the vine and in the branches so they work in unity.
Quote Hi W,
God begat a Son in His divine image in the “beginning”, ie before time, and that Son, the Word was with God in the beginning and all that has life, all creation was made through that Son.Hey Nick! So the Word that created all things and by whom all things consist was created or had a beginning?
Makes no sence to me!
God through him didnt create him.
Foolish natural logic which carries no wieght!!!
If he created ALL And ALL was made by him. Then he had no beginning!
Quote Hi W,
Men have changed the scriptures from YHWH to Lord, and this has caused some men to confuse the almighty Lordship of God over all, including the Son, with the delegated Lordship from God of the Son as our Lord.Compare Joseph and the Pharaoh.
Joseph was never Pharaoh but always under his authority.
He was given complete authority to act in his name and authority as if he was Pharaoh.So also with the mongenes Son of God who was sent into the world to work in his Father's name and authority.
Hey Nick!
Making Human comparisons to Deity again!
Agency Huh Nick?
Natural Human carnal men trying to understand the nature of God!
Hi W,
Do you then understand the nature of God?
You must be the only one who does.
The rest of us sift through the evidence He has provided about His nature without adding presumptions and constructions like trinity to those verifiable facts, lest we offend the Almighty One..Quote Hi W,
God begat a Son in His divine image in the “beginning”, ie before time, and that Son, the Word was with God in the beginning and all that has life, all creation was made through that Son.Hey Nick!
Show me where the Word is the Son in the beginning!
Where is the scripture! “The Word was with God and the Word Was God”
Not the Word was the Son of God or the begotten Son!
Scriptures Nick!
I need help here, where are they?
Quote Hi w,
Why would you dispute with scripture?
There is a Father God and He has a Son.
The Father is the God of the Son.
They are in a family relationship.The Spirit of the Gardener is indeed in the vine and in the branches so they work in unity
Hey Nick!
Show me where I have said there is no Son?
You yourself have said the Spirit of the Father is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the Son is also the Spirit of God!
So they are the same Spirit?Hi W,
The Father begat the Son.Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
The Son was sent into the world.
1jn 4
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.”
Do you confess Jesus is the Son of God, or God Himself?
Quote Hi W,
Do you then understand the nature of God?
You must be the only one who does.
The rest of us sift through the evidence He has provided about His nature without adding presumptions and constructions like trinity to those verifiable facts, lest we offend the Almighty One..hey Nick!
You are the one the who is presuming. You are the one who is adding to the Word here. You are the who says the Word had a beginning or was begotten!
There is no scripture for that because the Word is eternal. He was always in the bosom of the Father and came forth when the Father spoke.
Hi W,
You say
“
Hey Nick!Show me where I have said there is no Son?
You yourself have said the Spirit of the Father is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the Son is also the Spirit of God!
So they are the same Spirit? “
Like any son of God Jesus had his own spirit which left him at death.
His vessel was filled with the Spirit of God in the fulness of deity in the Jordan revealing the Father in every aspect to men. That Spirit of Christ was poured out filling his body on earth when he returned to God uniting them with him and also with the Father.
If you say Jesus never was truly “with God” then you deny scripture and he is the Son of God no matter what other justifications you may use, such as SON being just a title for God as some say.
1Jn 1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. “
Quote Hi W,
The Father begat the Son.Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
The Son was sent into the world.
1jn 4
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.The Scriptures pointed ahead to him and after he came they point back to him!
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.”
Do you confess Jesus is the Son of God, or God Himself?
————–
Hey Nick!
All of these scriptures were written of Jesus yes, but he was not the Son until he was the Word made flesh. The Word being made Flesh the man Jesus was spoken of as the only begotten of the Father and the son of God!
But Nick you havnt shown me anything that says the Word was the Son until he was born!
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