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Hi Nick and Georg and Irene,
Georg you ask if I believe the earth was created in Gen 1:1. My answer is that as a formless and void earth, it was not yet created in the complete intended sense. The formless and void earth was merely a beginning of the creation of the earth. I have shown you that the foundation is still being laid during day three from the Proverbs 8 passage. The creation of the earth was intended to be formed and ready to be filled and we don't see that until day three. See here:Isa 45:18
18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), “I am the Lord, and there is none else.
NASUNick,
I would say that the foundations had begun with the formless and void earth and continued to be laid during day three.Have you guys ever started a project in a rough form and then continued to work on it, then days later it was in the finished form. That is what I believe was happening as the earth went from formless to formed by day three.
Blessings,
KathiKathi
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
This is how my bible has it. Yours even says, he did not created the earth a wast place.
I believe the earth, when it was created, was a beautiful planet with all kinds of vegetation, and giant animals, as the skeletons that have been found prove.
That is the reason the angels shouted for joy, which also proves they had already been created .
God then tested the angels, on this beautiful planet as he is testing us, for their loyalty and obedience. The Archangel Lucifer, which means, bringer of lite (truth), was put in charge to teach them. It was then that Lucifer began to contemplate, he should be worshiped, he should be God, and started a rebellion. His rebellion failed, and he was cast down to earth again, were he still is today. God then withdrew his Holy Spirit by which he upholds all things, and this earth went into chaos, plants, and animals all died.
What we read in Gen. 1:1 is described in the Psalms.Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
That is also what we read in Gen. 1:2
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The creation in Gen. could be called, a recreation.
Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 12 2009,22:11) Kathi Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
This is how my bible has it. Yours even says, he did not created the earth a wast place.
I believe the earth, when it was created, was a beautiful planet with all kinds of vegetation, and giant animals, as the skeletons that have been found prove.
That is the reason the angels shouted for joy, which also proves they had already been created .
God then tested the angels, on this beautiful planet as he is testing us, for their loyalty and obedience. The Archangel Lucifer, which means, bringer of lite (truth), was put in charge to teach them. It was then that Lucifer began to contemplate, he should be worshiped, he should be God, and started a rebellion. His rebellion failed, and he was cast down to earth again, were he still is today. God then withdrew his Holy Spirit by which he upholds all things, and this earth went into chaos, plants, and animals all died.
What we read in Gen. 1:1 is described in the Psalms.Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
That is also what we read in Gen. 1:2
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The creation in Gen. could be called, a recreation.
Georg
Hi Georg,
Ps 104:24-30
24 O Lord, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; The earth is full of Your possessions.
25 There is the sea, great and broad, In which are swarms without number, Animals both small and great.
26 There the ships move along, And Leviathan, which You have formed to sport in it.
27 They all wait for You To give them their food in due season.
28 You give to them, they gather it up; You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good.
29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.
NASUI believe that you have developed a long tale to try to justify the fossil record. The above passage is simply saying that GOD cares for the animals, they die and then more animals come to take their place. There is no “re”creation spoken of in the entire Bible except for the new earth of which is to come. God's word says that God created the heaven and the earth in six days. It doesn't say that GOD recreated the heaven and the earth in six days.
If the evil angels were already bad angels by day one why does GOD call everything that He made “GOOD”?
Sorry I have major problems with your theory Georg.
Ex 20:11
11 “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
NASUGen 1:31-2:4
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.
NASUIn six days GOD created ALL that is in the heaven and the earth. The word “recreated” is no where to be found regarding the earth of which we exist on. Sorry Georg you have not proved the angels were created before the earth was formless and void.
God bless,
KathiKathi
I know what the bible says, but the bible does not say everything.
How do you explain the fossil record for instant?
how do you explain the oil and gas deep under ground?
how do you explain the mountain ranges?
You know the Hawaiian Islands sit right over a “hot spot” that formed them.
They all have taken billions of years to form. To ignore these facts is no different then to say, there is no God.Georg
Georg,
I am open to all possibilities of the history of the planet earth as long as it lines up with scripture but I don't think your theory does line up with scripture. GOD can make a mature planet and set it into motion without going through a slow process that takes billions of years. He decides the laws of nature and can change the laws of nature. I am open to the idea that the six days of creation were not 24 hour days but six periods of evenings followed by mornings especially before the sun was created on day four.You have given me your theory and claim it as “proof” that the angels were already created before the earth was formless and void. That is building on sand and no proof at all. It takes a lot of time to hold up the walls of that sandcastle. Trust GOD for giving us the necessary information. Wondering about the origin of the planet is interesting to ponder but we should be careful not to tell GOD that He means “re”create when He says “create.” That is playing GOD, IMO, and I know that you are against that.
Kathi
Hi LU,
We do not know the history of earth before Genesis but we do know it was present already in Genesis1.Nick,
We only know that it began formless and void and became formed and filled by day six. The intended created earth was not present before it was formed and prepared to sustain life. The formless and void earth existed before it was formed, I agree but that just means that it was not done yet and needed the happenings of day one and day two and day three to occur before it was fully created and ready for life to exist on it.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 14 2009,05:41) Georg,
I am open to all possibilities of the history of the planet earth as long as it lines up with scripture but I don't think your theory does line up with scripture. GOD can make a mature planet and set it into motion without going through a slow process that takes billions of years. He decides the laws of nature and can change the laws of nature. I am open to the idea that the six days of creation were not 24 hour days but six periods of evenings followed by mornings especially before the sun was created on day four.You have given me your theory and claim it as “proof” that the angels were already created before the earth was formless and void. That is building on sand and no proof at all. It takes a lot of time to hold up the walls of that sandcastle. Trust GOD for giving us the necessary information. Wondering about the origin of the planet is interesting to ponder but we should be careful not to tell GOD that He means “re”create when He says “create.” That is playing GOD, IMO, and I know that you are against that.
Kathi
KathiI know God can do all things, but if he did what you suggested, to make things appear as though they were billions of years old, when they were not, that is deceiving.
If God says he created the earth in six days, and in reality it took him 6000 years, that would make him a liar.
OK, I take back the “recreated” and replace it with with “renewed”, better? He renewed the face of the ground; when you get a facelift, you don't get a whole new head.
I suppose God put all the oil, coal, and gas in the ground because he knew we would need them for our homes and cars, right?
The bible says, Lucifer ascended to heaven to challenge God for the throne; from where did he ascend?
Jesus said, he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightening; when did he see him fall, and were did he fall back unto?
There is much the bible does not tell us, but God's Holy Spirit will reveal to us, if we ask for it.Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 13 2009,19:16) Quote (Lightenup @ May 14 2009,05:41) Georg,
I am open to all possibilities of the history of the planet earth as long as it lines up with scripture but I don't think your theory does line up with scripture. GOD can make a mature planet and set it into motion without going through a slow process that takes billions of years. He decides the laws of nature and can change the laws of nature. I am open to the idea that the six days of creation were not 24 hour days but six periods of evenings followed by mornings especially before the sun was created on day four.You have given me your theory and claim it as “proof” that the angels were already created before the earth was formless and void. That is building on sand and no proof at all. It takes a lot of time to hold up the walls of that sandcastle. Trust GOD for giving us the necessary information. Wondering about the origin of the planet is interesting to ponder but we should be careful not to tell GOD that He means “re”create when He says “create.” That is playing GOD, IMO, and I know that you are against that.
Kathi
KathiI know God can do all things, but if he did what you suggested, to make things appear as though they were billions of years old, when they were not, that is deceiving.
If God says he created the earth in six days, and in reality it took him 6000 years, that would make him a liar.
OK, I take back the “recreated” and replace it with with “renewed”, better? He renewed the face of the ground; when you get a facelift, you don't get a whole new head.
I suppose God put all the oil, coal, and gas in the ground because he knew we would need them for our homes and cars, right?
The bible says, Lucifer ascended to heaven to challenge God for the throne; from where did he ascend?
Jesus said, he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightening; when did he see him fall, and were did he fall back unto?
There is much the bible does not tell us, but God's Holy Spirit will reveal to us, if we ask for it.Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Georg
Hi Georg,
The verse that speaks of “renewing” the face of the ground is not spoken in a context of angels rebelling and causing chaos. So renewing is not true either. Gen 1:1 says nothing about “and the earth BECAME formless and void” If it did you might have something to build on. Also, if it didn't say that everything was “good” when there was actually evil angels in rebellion casted down to earth as you suggest then you might have something more to build on. However it does not say “became formless and void” it says “and the earth WAS formless and void.” It also says everything was “GOOD.”You also say that if He created something mature while not clarifying that point then He would be deceitful??? Did He make Adam mature when he had really only just received life? I would say yes, Adam was made more mature than a newborn. How about Eve, did He make her as a newborn or mature? I believe she was mature. Do you disagree with that also? Therefore, if you agree that both were not created new borns and GOD was not deceitful by doing that then maybe you can see a mature earth created from the start as mature and GOD was not being deceitful by doing that either.
Just something for you to rethink Georg,
KathiKathi
To use Adam and Eve as a comparison is weak.
Why would God create the earth in such a disarray, when he knew he was about to put animals and people on it?
You don't think it is a lie when the word reads six days, and it really took 6000 years?
And what about the gas, oil, and coal; do you know how the form, and how long it takes them to form?
God said it was good,”after” he put it in order.
Now, instead of given me your opinions, address my questions for a change.Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 13 2009,20:03) Kathi To use Adam and Eve as a comparison is weak.
Why would God create the earth in such a disarray, when he knew he was about to put animals and people on it?
You don't think it is a lie when the word reads six days, and it really took 6000 years?
And what about the gas, oil, and coal; do you know how the form, and how long it takes them to form?
God said it was good,”after” he put it in order.
Now, instead of given me your opinions, address my questions for a change.Georg
Georg,Quote Why would God create the earth in such a disarray, when he knew he was about to put animals and people on it? I have time for this one question right now.
He did not create it in disarray, He created it in stages starting with a formless and void stage, then separating the waters stage, then gathering the waters into seas stage and forming the mountains and dry land stage. This was done very orderly, not in disarray. Do you only allow GOD one step in His creative process? Patience…as if six days or even six thousand years isn't quick enough for you.And no I don't think it a lie when the word reads six days but it means something other than 24 hour days. It doesn't say 24 hour days anywhere.
Kathi
Hi Georg,
Your next question was “what about the gas, oil, and coal; do you know how they form, and how long it takes them to form?My answer: You seem to assume that GOD didn't create gas, oil and coal within the earth. Are you assuming that He just created what would become gas, oil, and coal and after many years they eventually became gas, oil, and coal? I would say that if He can create what would become gas, oil, and coal; He can just as easily create gas, oil, and coal as gas, oil, and coal in the finished form. That way they do not need several years to “become” those things, they are those things from the start.
BTW, you say, “instead of giving me your opinions, address my questions for a change” and then you ask for my opinions.
Do you really want to come across as snotty…I would not have expected that of you Georg. I am your friend, no need for an attitude with me. Let's discuss this in a civil polite manner, okay?Kathi
Kathi
If I came across to you as “snotty”, I'm sorry. My questioning sometimes makes people react that way. I was not asking for your opinion, I was asking for an answer. Opinions come from people who are not sure of their answer.
You should look up on your computer how gas, oil and coal are formed, its interesting.Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Evening and morning is one day.
Do you suppose God just put all those dinosaurs bones into the rocks to confuse us? how do you explain fossilised sea creatures high in mountain ranges.
Do you know that the entire chain of Hawaiian Islands were created by volcanic eruptions, a “hot spot” in the earth mantle over which the pacific plate moves across, half inch per year.
Yes, God puts his laws in motion, and he abides by them, and expects us to do the same.Georg
Hi Georg,
As much as I would like to have all the answers, I don't, so I will then give an opinion which hopefully will have thought and reason behind it and not contradictory to GOD's word. People's opinions can be valuable to help us see things differently don't you think? People's opinions can challenge our own beliefs and often cause us to refine or completely change what we thought. I understand that you want answers but sometimes they have to evolve from opinions to develop into understanding and truths that we can hold on to. The important thing we look for is truth whether it is in an opinion or whatever.I don't suppose that GOD put all those dinosaur bones into the rocks to confuse us. I believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth, this earth and not some old earth that was renewed as you say. I also believe that man lived for 900 years or so back then. If man could live that long then reptiles could live that long possibly also. Reptiles keep growing bigger and bigger as they age as I understand it. How big would a 900 year old reptile get? Possibly as big as what we know about dinosaurs.
The fossilized sea creatures found high in mountain ranges can be explained by the flood that covered the mountain tops.
The Hawaiian Islands were created by volcanic eruptions, fine, GOD made the tectonic plates to do that sort of thing.
Is GOD governed by the laws of nature or does He govern them? Does He change water into wine by laws of nature or can He override them and change water into wine by performing SUPERnaturally? Who is in charge, natural laws or GOD?
God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and morning the first day. Notice He didn't call the light “morning” and He didn't call the darkness “evening.” God uses the word day in a variety of ways, as well as the word light, darkness, night and morning. They don't all mean what we think of relative to what we see out our window in association with the sun and moon.
Someday I just might look up how gas, oil and coal are formed…I'm sure that it is interesting. My daughter and I touched on it during Science this year.
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 14 2009,17:52) Hi Georg,
As much as I would like to have all the answers, I don't, so I will then give an opinion which hopefully will have thought and reason behind it and not contradictory to GOD's word. People's opinions can be valuable to help us see things differently don't you think? People's opinions can challenge our own beliefs and often cause us to refine or completely change what we thought. I understand that you want answers but sometimes they have to evolve from opinions to develop into understanding and truths that we can hold on to. The important thing we look for is truth whether it is in an opinion or whatever.Kathi
KathiWith this I do agree.
However, if I were to agree with you on the rest, I would have to ignore what science and archaeologists have discovered.
Jesus changed water into wine, but he told us he did. God caused the sun to stand still so Joshua could finish off the Amorites, but he told us that he did. He parted the red sea that the Israelites could walk through it, but he told us that he did. There are many more things that God did which go against the law of nature, but God always told us that he did.
If God had taken longer then one day each, he would have told us.
I don,t think your assessment that reptiles grow bigger the longer they live is quite correct, I at least have not heard that, some snakes might, Anacondas.Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 14 2009,06:10) Quote (Lightenup @ May 14 2009,17:52) Hi Georg,
As much as I would like to have all the answers, I don't, so I will then give an opinion which hopefully will have thought and reason behind it and not contradictory to GOD's word. People's opinions can be valuable to help us see things differently don't you think? People's opinions can challenge our own beliefs and often cause us to refine or completely change what we thought. I understand that you want answers but sometimes they have to evolve from opinions to develop into understanding and truths that we can hold on to. The important thing we look for is truth whether it is in an opinion or whatever.Kathi
KathiWith this I do agree.
However, if I were to agree with you on the rest, I would have to ignore what science and archaeologists have discovered.
Jesus changed water into wine, but he told us he did. God caused the sun to stand still so Joshua could finish off the Amorites, but he told us that he did. He parted the red sea that the Israelites could walk through it, but he told us that he did. There are many more things that God did which go against the law of nature, but God always told us that he did.
If God had taken longer then one day each, he would have told us.
I don,t think your assessment that reptiles grow bigger the longer they live is quite correct, I at least have not heard that, some snakes might, Anacondas.Georg
Hi Georg,
Here is a quote for you regarding reptiles continuing to grow till they die:
” Like all reptiles, snakes continue to grow throughout their lives.”
found here:
http://www.sdnhm.org/research/herpetology/resources4a.htmlJust google “Do reptiles continue to grow till they die?”
You will find more information.I'll be back with more,
KathiKathi
I did say that did I not, Anacondas are considered the largest snakes.
But we weren't talking about snakes, were we?
If God had created all these large animals, of which we have only skeletons; were are they today? and why did God not save any on the Ark?
There are to many scientific proves that the earth is much, much older than 6000 years.Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 14 2009,06:10) Quote (Lightenup @ May 14 2009,17:52) Hi Georg,
As much as I would like to have all the answers, I don't, so I will then give an opinion which hopefully will have thought and reason behind it and not contradictory to GOD's word. People's opinions can be valuable to help us see things differently don't you think? People's opinions can challenge our own beliefs and often cause us to refine or completely change what we thought. I understand that you want answers but sometimes they have to evolve from opinions to develop into understanding and truths that we can hold on to. The important thing we look for is truth whether it is in an opinion or whatever.Kathi
KathiWith this I do agree.
However, if I were to agree with you on the rest, I would have to ignore what science and archaeologists have discovered.
Jesus changed water into wine, but he told us he did. God caused the sun to stand still so Joshua could finish off the Amorites, but he told us that he did. He parted the red sea that the Israelites could walk through it, but he told us that he did. There are many more things that God did which go against the law of nature, but God always told us that he did.
If God had taken longer then one day each, he would have told us.
I don,t think your assessment that reptiles grow bigger the longer they live is quite correct, I at least have not heard that, some snakes might, Anacondas.Georg
So Georg,
You can't seem to believe that GOD could make mature coal within the earth unless He tells us. He did tell us that He made the heavens and the earth, that says a lot doesn't it. He doesn't have to spell it out for us does He? If He could make a rock and it be solid and hard from the start, He could make coal solid and hard from the start and make it without fossils and dead plants. He made the water into wine without the aid of grapes after all.The paleontologists and archeologists are limited to observable and measurable data, remember. There was no man around to observe creation so to analyze it they have to make educated guesses from what they can observe and measure. They depend on natural laws but GOD used supernatural ways to create the heavens and the earth. If they do not acknowledge an intelligent designer/creator then their foundation they build on is unstable and unreliable if indeed there is an intelligent designer/creator which I know that you believe there is. Also, if they don't believe there was a worldwide flood and there really was, well that skews their conclusions as well.
Kathi
Georg,
Read the quote again, it says “Like ALL reptiles…” As you know, snakes are not the only reptiles.I put that comment in to respond to your comment:
Quote I don,t think your assessment that reptiles grow bigger the longer they live is quite correct, I at least have not heard that, some snakes might, Anacondas. You might want to read this short article that I found here:
http://toptenproofs.com/smpl_dino.phpIt answers some of those questions you have about dinosaurs. How do you know that there were no baby dinosaurs on the ark?
Kathi
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