Is the Bible the Word of God?

[Cubes]

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 09 2006,01:46)

Jesus plainly calls the OT the “word of God”: (Mat 15:5-6 NASB)  “But you say, 'Whoever shall say to his father or mother, “Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God,” {6} he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Also, Jesus considered His words to be the Word of God; (Luke 8:4-21 NASB)  And when a great multitude were coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: {5} “The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road; and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the air ate it up. {6} “And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. {7} “And other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it, and choked it out. {8} “And other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” {9} And His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable might be. {10} And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, in order that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND. {11} “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. {12} “And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved. {13} “And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. {14} “And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity. {15} “And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. {16} “Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light. {17} “For nothing is hidden that shall not become evident, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come to light. {18} “Therefore take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him shall more be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.” {19} And His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. {20} And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.” {21} But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” (Luke 11:19-28 NASB)  “And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. {20} “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. {21} “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own homestead, his possessions are undisturbed; {22} but when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied, and distributes his plunder. {23} “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters. {24} “When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' {25} “And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. {26} “Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.” {27} And it came about while He said these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice, and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts at which You nursed.” {28} But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and observe it.” Now, Jesus promised His disciples that when He ascended He would send the Holy Spirit to them in such a way that they would recal His words accurately and recount them to others accurately; (John 16:1-4 NASB)  “These things I have spoken to you, that you may be kept from stumbling. {2} “They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. {3} “And these things they will do, because they have not known the Father, or Me. {4} “But these things I have spoken to you, that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.” Peter, at Pentecost, immediately begins to recount to those present the sayings and activities of Jesus. This he calls the “word of God”; (Acts 4:31 NASB)  And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak the word of God with boldness. Thus, we move from the OT as being the Word of God, to Jesus' teachings being the word of God, to the disciples preaching the word of God, to these “sermons” etc being faithfully captuered in written form by the writers of the NT. Luke tells us that, for instance, that both Paul and Barnabas' words are the word of God; (Acts 13:46 NASB)  And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.” Paul's words are called the word of God again here; (Acts 18:11 NASB)  And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. (2 Cor 4:1-4 NASB)  Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, {2} but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. {3} And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, {4} in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. So, the progression is that Jesus calls the OT the word of God, and that Jesus' words are the very word of God, and thus, in so far as the disciples accurately recalled those words and relayed them to us via their writings, these writings are, de facto, the very word of God. blessings

Good post, E! When you're right, you're right.

[NickHassan]

amen

[kenrch]

Great explanation!

[Cubes]

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 09 2006,04:34)

epistemaniac, thanks for your reply, but if you take the Scripture you quoted with the understanding that the Bible calles Jesus the Word of God you will see that it reads quite differently.

Hi Oxy,

If Jesus is the entire word of God as you propose, how is it that he himself is subject to the word and will of God?

Psalm 40:7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.

Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
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Also Heb 10:7, Psalm 119

[Oxy]

Yeah, they were teaching the Word of God. They were teaching Jesus. Try reading the Scriptures from this point of view. When you see the Word of God, think of it being Jesus, not the Bible and it will have a whole new meaning. It will lift up and bring glory to Jesus instead of the book. Remember that the book is about Jesus, not Jesus about the book.

[Cubes]

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 09 2006,06:48)

Yeah, they were teaching the Word of God.  They were teaching Jesus.  Try reading the Scriptures from this point of view. When you see the Word of God, think of it being Jesus, not the Bible and it will have a whole new meaning.  It will lift up and bring glory to Jesus instead of the book.  Remember that the book is about Jesus, not Jesus about the book.

I respect your viewpoint but humbly disagree. I believe that the book is about God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ and his kingdom. I agree that secondarily, Jesus is the second major person featured therein to reconcile men to God.

Jesus is our mediator and that makes him very important and exalted, but not as exalted as the One for whom he mediates and reconciles us to. Do you see what I mean?

[kenrch]

You go girl!!

[Oxy]

I think you missed my point. When I said they were teaching the Word of God, they were teacihing Jesus I meant that Jesus IS the Word of God that they were teaching. Scripture points out very clearly that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Nowhere in Scripture is it written that the Word of God became a book.

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 09 2006,01:48)

Yeah, they were teaching the Word of God.  They were teaching Jesus.  Try reading the Scriptures from this point of view. When you see the Word of God, think of it being Jesus, not the Bible and it will have a whole new meaning.  It will lift up and bring glory to Jesus instead of the book.  Remember that the book is about Jesus, not Jesus about the book.

Thanks everyone

Oxy,
Sure they were teaching “Jesus”, but that is not all they taught now is it? Surely you do not need for me to start quoting huge sections of Scripture that deal with issues other then Christ Himself do you? The teachings of the Bible are to be interpreted Christologically to be sure, but while Christ is at the center, not all the Scripture is directly about Christ Jesus…. and yet all these teachings are the very word of God because they are stamped with the divine seal and approval of God which means that to obey the commandments as found in the Scripture is to obey God, and to disobey the biblical commandments is the same as disobeying God.

Of course Jesus is the Word of God, my position does not need to create a false dichotomy which would state that one precludes the other. Jesus is the Logos, and this Logos promised to send the Holy Spirit to His disciples to accurately remember and convey His teachings to others, whether they were being cross examined in the court room, or sharing the gospel, or sharing about what kind of life it is that pleases God, namely what sorts of actions are sinful and what are not. These commandments on how one is to behave in the kingdom of God are not mere suggestions are they? Of course not. And on whose authority are these commandments resting? Why God of course. And in this sense the Bible is the Word of God. That is what the Bible itself calls it, and that is what you were asking for proof of, and I supplied you with all the proof you ought to need.

At any rate, if you think that the passages are not proof, you might want to try and interact with the passages listed and show me how I am misunderstanding them. Otherwise, your insisting that I accept your view simply because it is you who is saying it is just not gonna happen. That would be like you accepting everything I say simply because I said it. Thats not gonna happen now is it? Of course not. So you should not expect me to do what you would not be willing to do. Show me from the Scriptures where I am wrong, or change your own position to accurately reflect the biblical teaching, its that simple.

blessings

[Oxy]

epistemaniac, thanks for the blessings. I always appreciate those. You are absolutely right in that I don't expect you to believe anything I say just because I say it. I love God with all of my heart and worship Jesus wholeheartedly. I embrace the Holy Spirit and look to His teaching and guidance daily.

Part of my worship to Jesus is to recognise Him for who He was in the beginning ie the Word of God, and to recognise Him who He became 2000 years ago, the One who paid the price for my sin, and for who He is when He arrives on the white horse with His robe dipped in blood ie the Word of God. As the Word of God He is the Promise of God and also the fulfillment of that promise. He is the message and the Messenger.

I take nothing away from the Bible. I whole heartedly believe the Scriptures are given to us by God and think it important enough to include a daily reading on my web page.

It's just that when I read Scripture and see the logos mentioned, I see it as Jesus because in John 1:14 the Word (logos) became flesh, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to see the logos as being Jesus, especially when you read the likes of Heb 4:12 For the Word (logos) of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight, but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

I have heard so many preachers talk of this passage as referring to the Bible, but to me it's talking about Jesus and gives Him honour. There are so many more Scriptures like it, but don't take my word for it, ask the Lord.

[typrsn]

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 09 2006,01:48)

Yeah, they were teaching the Word of God.  They were teaching Jesus.  Try reading the Scriptures from this point of view. When you see the Word of God, think of it being Jesus, not the Bible and it will have a whole new meaning.  It will lift up and bring glory to Jesus instead of the book.  Remember that the book is about Jesus, not Jesus about the book.

Oxy,

That is absolutely correct and in agreement with Rev. 19:10; John 5:39; Heb. 10:7.

[seminarian]

T,

I knew who our Lord Jesus Christ is and who his Father is LONG before entering any seminary so you speak without understanding.  You seem intimidated by someone with a theological education, otherwise, why would you even bring this up?

Here's another extra Biblical assumption you've made and I quote:

“But that still leaves the question: Why does the New Testaent make a distinction at times? The answer to this goes back to the dual nature of Jesus. In the capacity of being fully man, He was distinct from God. Not just distinct from the Father but from being God at all.”

Really?  There is NO doctrine of any dual nature of Christ found in the Bible nor did the apostles teach any such nonsense.  Show me in the scriptures where it says the Lord Jesus has a “dual” nature.  What the Bible does say is that he had to be made JUST LIKE HIS BROTHERS.

“For this reason he had to be made like his brothers IN EVERY WAY…”[Hebrews 2:17]

Sorry but I'm not half god and half human so neither was Christ.

You are the one who refuses to grasp that the word god has more than one meaning in Hebrew.  You don't want to do a word study or even pick up a dictionary.  Well I've done your homework for you here so pull up a chair and READ this:

Jesus himself clearly explained the meaning of the word god as it applied to him that by quoting Psalm 82:6 “ye are called gods; and all of you are children of the Most High.”  
He was speaking to the Pharisees who said he was claiming to be equal to God.  Why did he refute them if this was true?  Read John 10:35 then read Psalm 82:

GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim).

This body of “gods” refers to the judges in Israel. Some Bibles indicate this in their marginal references. Yahweh judges the judges.

Even Moses was an “elohim” or god.
Exodus 7:

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (elohim) to Pharoah: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

God made Moses an “elohim” to Pharoah.
So that is why in John 10, we find another reference to this:
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law (the Old Testament), I said, Ye are gods?

Finally just pick up a dictionary:

Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines “god” as:

The supreme being: Jehovah.
A false god or a heathen deity.
A prince, a ruler, a magistrate or a judge.

So if you are too thick to see that the word god has different meanings in the Bible, even as Jesus himself explained it, I can't help you.
I have my own homework to do and can't waste my time doing Biblical research for you.

Bless ya' all the same but I really need a Tylenol now,

Semmy

[typrsn]

Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 09 2006,15:55)

T, I knew who our Lord Jesus Christ is and who his Father is LONG before entering any seminary so you speak without understanding.  You seem intimidated by someone with a theological education, otherwise, why would you even bring this up? Here's another extra Biblical assumption you've made and I quote: “But that still leaves the question: Why does the New Testaent make a distinction at times? The answer to this goes back to the dual nature of Jesus. In the capacity of being fully man, He was distinct from God. Not just distinct from the Father but from being God at all.” Really?  There is NO doctrine of any dual nature of Christ found in the Bible nor did the apostles teach any such nonsense.  Show me in the scriptures where it says the Lord Jesus has a “dual” nature.  What the Bible does say is that he had to be made JUST LIKE HIS BROTHERS. “For this reason he had to be made like his brothers IN EVERY WAY…”[Hebrews 2:17] Sorry but I'm not half god and half human so neither was Christ. You are the one who refuses to grasp that the word god has more than one meaning in Hebrew.  You don't want to do a word study or even pick up a dictionary.  Well I've done your homework for you here so pull up a chair and READ this: Jesus himself clearly explained the meaning of the word god as it applied to him that by quoting Psalm 82:6 “ye are called gods; and all of you are children of the Most High.”   He was speaking to the Pharisees who said he was claiming to be equal to God.  Why did he refute them if this was true?  Read John 10:35 then read Psalm 82: GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods (elohim). This body of “gods” refers to the judges in Israel. Some Bibles indicate this in their marginal references. Yahweh judges the judges. Even Moses was an “elohim” or god. Exodus 7: And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (elohim) to Pharoah: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. God made Moses an “elohim” to Pharoah. So that is why in John 10, we find another reference to this: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law (the Old Testament), I said, Ye are gods? Finally just pick up a dictionary: Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines “god” as: The supreme being: Jehovah. A false god or a heathen deity. A prince, a ruler, a magistrate or a judge. So if you are too thick to see that the word god has different meanings in the Bible, even as Jesus himself explained it, I can't help you. I have my own homework to do and can't waste my time doing Biblical research for you. Bless ya' all the same but I really need a Tylenol now, Semmy

Semmy,

Thanks you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to respond to my post. I know how it is seeing that I am extremely busy myself. I must say that I am enjoying our discussion.

What I said about seminary was not directed towards you. What I said about seminary was in relation to Jesus' response to Peter from the passage I cited in Matt. 16:17. Flesh and blood cannot reveal who Jesus is. I am not intimidated by anyone, seminary or no seminary. How do you know that I have not been to seminary? We have several people in our congregation who are seminary trained. They will tell anyone that seminary cannot teach anyone who God is. The only ones that can do that are the ones that God sent to do it as Paul said in Rom. 10:14,15. As Jesus told the Jews “You search and investigate and pore over the criptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very scriptures] testify about Me and still you are not willing [but refuse] to come to Me, so that you might have life (John 5:39,40). Luke tells us well “Now when they saw the boldness and unfettered eloquence of Peter and John and perceived that they were unlearned and untrained in the schools [common men with no educational advantages], they marveled; and they recognized that they had been with Jesus.” (Acts 4:13)

You cited Heb. 2:17 ” Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto his brethren”. The questions is..in what way was He made like unto His brethren? The answer is found in the same chapter. Verse 9 let's us know that He was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Verse 14 tells us forasmuch then as the children are flesh and blood, He also likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. This does not refer to us being half god and half human. This refers to God Almighty Himself being born in this world through the womb of a virgin (Is. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-23). Jesus Himself is not half God and half human. He is fully God (God is not quantitive) and fully human.

I do not need for you to do homework for me. I understand this topic very well, thank you very kindly. You are correct, Moses, the judges, and others were called gods because of authority.

I am not too thick to see that the word “god” has different meanings as I acknowledge above. Please answer my questions:

1) If Jesus is not God, how is it that He fulfilled (Is. 7:14; Matt. 1:22, 23) being God with us?

2) If Jesus is not God, how is it that God purchased the church with His own blood? (Acts 20:28)

3) If Jesus is not Yahweh Elohim, then how did John the Baptist and Jesus fulfill Mal. 3:1; Is. 40:1-3; Is. 35:1-7; Luke 3:3-6; Matt. 11:2-6

4) How is He Yahweh our Righteousness? (Jer. 23:5,6)
5) How is He (Jesus/Yahushua) Yahweh our salvation? (Is. 12:1-6; Matt.1:21; John 4:10-14, John 7:37-39).

Jesus Christ is Yahweh Elohim in the flesh and except we believe that He is He, we shall die in our sins (John 8:24) because we must believe in who He is to have life through His name (John 20:28-31).

[NickHassan]

Hi typsrn,
Christ means anointed.
Acts 10 ascribes the work of God done through him to this anointing with the Holy Spirit and power.
His work began after his anointing with the Holy Spirit in the Jordan.
He did no recorded works of power before the Father filled him with His Spirit at the Jordan.
IN him was the fullness of deity.
He was not the Deity that was in him.
God was at work in him to will and to do as He can be in us.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.
Those who saw him also 'saw' God in him including Thomas.
He was the monogenes Son of God.
He was of royal blood and this was shed.
God used him as a glorious vessel to save us and be our righteousness.
But he was not the God who was at work in him.
He was of divine nature but had shed all such advantages to partake of flesh.
John straightened the path for God in Jesus, the Messiah or anointed one.

Hope this helps.

[Oxy]

Now ladies and gentlemen, and some not so gentle (seminarian) who shows the ungodly traits of ridicule and insult lol. Back onto the topic………… (ref my last post)

[typrsn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 09 2006,20:09)

Hi typsrn, Christ means anointed. Acts 10 ascribes the work of God done through him to this anointing with the Holy Spirit and power. His work began after his anointing with the Holy Spirit in the Jordan. He did no recorded works of power befopre the Father filled him with His Spirit. IN him was the fullness of deity. He was not the Deity that was in him. God was at work in him to will and to do as He can be in us. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Those who saw him also 'saw' God in him including Thomas. He was the monogenes Son of God. He was of royal blood and this was shed. God used him as a glorious vessel to save us and be our righteousness. But he was not the God who was at work in him. He was of divine nature but had shed all such advantages to partake of flesh. John straightened the path for God in Jesus, the Messiah or anointed one. Hope this helps.

Nick,

If He was not that God at work in Him, then how did God purchase the church with His own blood as Paul stated in Acts 20:28?

Jesus was not some kind of cup that contained God. Yes, He is the only begotten Son of God as you state, but do you understand the implication of this statement?

It amazes me how that people can say that there is nothing impossible with God, but can't believe that God can exist in two ways. God could exist in an innumerable number of ways and still be God if He so chose to do so. All without ceasing to still be the one true God that He said He is in Deut. 6:4. That is why He is God. I suppose that human logic, intellect and reason cannot grasp this truth. This can only be grasped by faith in an omnipotent God.

[typrsn]

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 09 2006,20:21)

Now ladies and gentlemen, and some not so gentle (seminarian) who shows the ungodly traits of ridicule and insult lol.  Back onto the topic………… (ref my last post)

Oxy,

I'm sorry. I hope I haven't insulted or ridiculed anyone here.

[NickHassan]

Hi t,
As you will know God is spirit.
“God is not man that he should lie”
The blood that was shed was that of his Son

Indeed Jesus was a vessel for His Father and revealed His Father to kmen in this way.[2Tim 2 .20]
He was of divine origins in the beginning but emptied himself to become as we are. we are not divine so he brought no divine attributes and advantages with him to become alike to us in all ways except sin.
If he kept his divinity then in what way are we like to him and what did he shed to become as we are?
If you say he was God in flesh you fail the scriptural test of 1 Jn 4.2

[typrsn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 09 2006,20:43)

Hi t, As you will know God is spirit. “God is not man that he should lie” The blood that was shed was that of his Son Indeed Jesus was a vessel for His Father and revealed His Father to kmen in this way.[2Tim 2 .20] He was of divine origins in the beginning but emptied himself to become as we are. we are not divine so he brought no divine attributes and advantages with him to become alike to us in all ways except sin. If he kept his divinity then in what way are we like to him and what did he shed to become as we are? If you say he was God in flesh you fail the scriptural test of 1 Jn 4.2

Nick,

That's what I like about you. You even know how to potentially call me a false prophet with impressive demeanor, as an umpire that calls a ball or a strike. The umpire does not determine what constitutes a ball or strike, that is predetermined. He goes by the rule book that he didn't write. He just simply makes the call based upon where the ball crosses the plane of the plate as stated in the rule book.

It is true that God is a spirit. It is also true that the blood that was shed was that of His Son. It is also true that the blood that was shed was His own blood as Paul correctly states in Acts 20:28.

When did I deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? I do not deny the Father and the Son. In my sprit I do confess that Jesus is the Son of God. John was writing to combat the doctrine of those that taught that Christ only “appeared” or “seemed” to be a man. They said that He “seemed” to have been born, suffered and died, but in reality He didn't. They were known as Docetists. They were gnostics. The name comes from the Greek word “dokesis” which means “appearance” or “semblence”. They were saying the humanity of Christ was an illusion. John also tells us of how that Christ was in reality human in John 19:34,35 and he says that his testimony of this is true.

[NickHassan]

Hi t,
Can you not see the obvious inconsistency here?
Go Himself does not have blood and this scripture does not prove he has.
The Son of God is of that royal 'bloodline'.

Do you believe Jesus is the only begotten Son
and the physical son of God
and not just son of God by appellation or in name only?

“It is true that God is a spirit. It is also true that the blood that was shed was that of His Son. It is also true that the blood that was shed was His own blood as Paul correctly states in Acts 20:28”

[Author]

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