Is the Bible the Word of God?

Participant

Thanks for your reply. I totally agree with you, but where is it written that the Bible is the Word of God? Jesus referred to them as the words of God, but my understanding is that there is only one Word of God (Jesus) although a direct message from God can also be called a word of God.

What you have shown me is fine, but it does not state that the Bible is the Word of God.

August 7, 2006 at 10:58 am#23749

Cubes

Participant

Hi Oxy,

I can see that you are explaining yourself so that I should understand you better, but am not quite following you– it's alluding me. Others may hopefully pick up on the point you're making and so respond more effectively.

August 7, 2006 at 1:14 pm#23751

typrsn

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 07 2006,09:05)

What you have shown me is fine, but it does not state that the Bible is the Word of God.

Oxy,

There is the Logos and there is the Rhema. The Rhema is the spoken word. The Bible translates Logos and Rhema as the one word, “word”, and this has confused many. The Rhema is the spoken Word of God and denotes the teaching or utterances in which God through someone declares His mind. Rhema is the divine instruction by the preachers of the gospel, words of prophecy and prophetic announcement. A word is a thought that has been given physical expression. The nature and attributes of God are given to us through the Word or Logos of God, being the Bible. The Logos is identified with the will of God, or with the thoughts and ideas that are in the mind of God. Jesus in the flesh is also understood as the incarnation of these divine attributes. He embodies the collective thought. He is the Exegesis of God. The Bible is the divinely inspired, inerrant Word (Logos) of God. From here, however, it takes the Rhema of God to properly take that inspiration to inspire us and appropriate and understand the written Word, giving us true insight. Peter writes that “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Rhema is the Word meditated on by the spirit through the study of the written word. It is the revelation given to us by God to help us understand and it is the prophetic articulation of that revelation to others in perfection.

Therefore the Rhema is that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, a spoken word or a word that has been taught. Here are some instances of the Rhema from the Greek. Your “teaching” begets eternal life. The “word” of faith which we are preaching. It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every “word” of God. Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the “Words” of eternal life. So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the “Word” of God. That he might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of water by the “word”. The “word” is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, which is the “Word” of God. But the “word” of the Lord endures forever. And this is the “Word” by which the gospel is preached unto you. (Luke, John, Romans 10:8, Ephesians, I Peter, II Peter 1:20-21) Rhema will always agree with Logos (Is. 8:20).

August 7, 2006 at 3:08 pm#23752

Participant

Hi Oxy,

You have to realize that there are no capitals or lower case in the original Greek manuscripts, (codices). Therefore capitalization was placed there by the translators. Here is the proper sequence or order of the Greek words in John 1:1-

“In the beginning was the word and the word was toward God and God was the word.”
This does not denote personification any more than “the wisdom of God” or the “spirit of truth” used in similar scriptures. If someone CAPITALIZED “word” to imply diety when it was not intended to mean that, they are adding their theolgy by way of implication.

The Greek “logos” is translated as “word” but it also has other meanings such as “thought”, (See Bullinger's Companion Bible). Rhema is not exclusive in this respect. So it is easy to translate this as God's thoughts taking on flesh in the form of Christ as Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God.

Having a good Greek interlinear helps.

Blessins'

Semmy

August 7, 2006 at 3:54 pm#23754

typrsn

Participant

Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 07 2006,16:08)

Hi Oxy,

Having a good Greek interlinear helps.

Blessins'

Semmy

Oxy/Semmy,

I am responding to your post because I capitalized Logos and wanted to explain why. I agree that Logos does not denote personification. Logos (thought, plan, idea, etc) does not signify that the Logos was a seperate person with God no more than a man's thoughts, understanding, wisdom, strength are a seperate person from him. Just because someone capitalizes Spirit of God, Wisdom of God, Name, etc. though does not necessarily mean that they are implying that they are seperate persons. Although some undoubtedly do. When I capitalize them, I am distinquishing them from man or any other entity and also applying reverence and exaltation. I do not believe in the Trinity doctrine. The Word clearly teaches that God is one (Deut. 6:4; Gal. 3:20). Jesus Christ is God Almighty Himself manifested in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16; Acts 20:28). He is more than God's Spokesman. The prophets were His spokemen too. He is God Himself in human flesh. The writer of Hebrews makes this differentiation between He and the prophets of old in Hebrews 1:1-3.

August 7, 2006 at 6:58 pm#23756

Participant

Typrsn,

No one's accusing you of authorizing the capitalization of the word logos in the Bible.
Good response to a point, however I must ask. Are you a Oneness Pentecostal?
What you are talking about is Modalism which is saying there is no distinct
person, will or begetting of Jesus Christ from His Father. This is not true.

You wrote:

“Jesus Christ is God Almighty Himself manifested in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16; Acts 20:28).”

What scripture are you supposedly quoting here? You have replaced the meaning of the word manifest with INCARNATE, a word that is NOT in the Bible, nor is it taught therein. Manifest means to simply make clear, illucidate. There is a BIG difference between the two words and nowhere in the Bible does it say God was incarnated or “in flesh” as that word incarnate means. We are able to clearly understand the Father through His Son, its that simple.

Futhermore you completely ingnore specific scriptures which CLEARLY say God is NOT A MAN.

“For I am GOD and NOT A MAN” [Hosea 11:9]

“God is NOT A MAN that He should Lie, nor a son of man that He should repent” [Numbers 23:19]

This is one of the best:

“No one has EVER SEEN GOD, but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us. ” [1 John 4:12]

Did you notice that? This was written by the apostle whom the Lord Jesus loved, ate with, slept beside and he says NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD. Why would he make such a statement if Jesus was God in human flesh? Now before you go off speculating, remember the apostles wrote under God's inspiration so please don't try to sell us on the “Oh they just didn't realize who he was”, theme. God revealed who the Lord Jesus was to Peter:

And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ the SON OF THE LIVING GOD. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven.” [Matthew 16:16-17]

It means just what it says. Son of God is also used of Adam, (Luke 3:38), the chosen Israelites and angels. Now are they diety or God in human flesh also for having the same title? You are right, there is only One God the Father but there is only One Lord, His Son, Christ Jesus.

Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father….and one Lord Jesus Christ. [1 Corn 8:6]

Two separate offices for two seperate or individual beings.

Ugh, Back to seminary studies

Semmy

August 7, 2006 at 7:17 pm#23758

Participant

Hi, thanks for your replies.

I too was told at Bible College many years ago that the Rhema was the spoken word and Logos the written word ie Bible. My studies since have shown me that whenever Jesus is referred to as the Word of God it is always Logos John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rhema on the other hand is a revealed word ie, a revelation, direction or some other insight from God, such as a particular message.

I have studied this extensively and am still unable to find a Biblical reason for calling the Bible the Word of God, yet everyone calls it that. 1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God… Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book…

I am trying to understand why the Bible is called the Word of God. My suspicion so far is that it is a non Biblical tradition that is quite misleading.

Cheers
Oxy

August 7, 2006 at 8:45 pm#23760

Participant

Hi semmy,
I do not have a Bullingers or an interlinear bible yet..
Concordances, of course, only relect the translation choices of men.

Can you show me in scripture
or in reputable language study books relevant to the times of Jesus,
or both,
where Logos is translated as 'thought'?

August 7, 2006 at 8:57 pm#23761

typrsn

Participant

Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 07 2006,19:58)

Typrsn,

You wrote:

“Jesus Christ is God Almighty Himself manifested in flesh (1 Tim. 3:16; Acts 20:28).”

Futhermore you completely ingnore specific scriptures which CLEARLY say God is NOT A MAN.

“For I am GOD and NOT A MAN” [Hosea 11:9]

“God is NOT A MAN that He should Lie, nor a son of man that He should repent” [Numbers 23:19]

This is one of the best:

“No one has EVER SEEN GOD, but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us. ” [1 John 4:12]

Yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father….and one Lord Jesus Christ. [1 Corn 8:6]

Two separate offices for two seperate or individual beings.

Ugh, Back to seminary studies

Semmy

Semmy,

I did not think that I was being accused. I saw your response and just thought I'd clarify why some (including myself) might use the capitalization.

Oneness Pentecostal is a denomination, of the which I do not endorse because the Word of God speaks against denominationalism in all forms. I am a son of God and member of the church which He purchased with His own blood. Now if your question is whether or not I have received the Holy Ghost as is recorded in the scriptures like they did in Acts…yes I have. I do not know what a modalist is so I can not say whether I would be considered one or not.

Of course God is not a man. Jesus Himself said that God is Spirit (Jn. 4:24) and a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). Please explain 1 Tim. 3:16; Acts 20:28; 2 Cor. 5:19 (and many others) if God was not manifested in the flesh. John said in John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 that no man has seen God at any time. That is because He is invisible until He chooses to make Himself known as He did in the burning bush when He spoke to Moses. That manifestation of Himself to Moses and others in the Old Testament were temporary manifestations. He has manifested Himself in the man Jesus Christ permanently (Heb. 1:4: 2 Cor. 4:4,6). For Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodliy (Col. 2:9).

I do not ignore scriptures that say that God is not a man. I rightly divide them. Although son of God was used of Adam, Israel and the angels, they were all sons of God by creation. Jesus is the Son of God, not by creation, but by birth (Is. 7:14; Is. 9:6; Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 1:27-37). He is the only begotten of the Father which speaks of His uniqueness of birth (John 1:14). He was born without a natural father. Again, Adam was created a son. We as sons of God obtained that position by the spirit of adoption (Gal. 4:5; Rom. 8:15; 1 John 3:1,2) through the new birth. Father and Son are not two persons, but one God existing in two ways simultaneously.

August 7, 2006 at 9:02 pm#23762

Participant

Hi typrsn,
Jesus is a glorious vessel for the Spirit of God poured into him at the Jordan.[2Tim 2.20-21.]
So are we[2.Cor 4.7]

August 7, 2006 at 9:24 pm#23763

Cubes

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 08 2006,01:17)

Hi, thanks for your replies.

Rhema on the other hand is a revealed word ie, a revelation, direction nor some other insight from God, such as a particular message.

I am trying to understand why the Bible is called the Word of God. My suspicion so far is that it is a non Biblical tradition that is quite misleading.

Cheers
Oxy

Hi Oxy,

Are you saying that the holy scriptures are neither the Logos or the Rhema of God?

If so, what would be the appropriate term to use?

August 7, 2006 at 9:45 pm#23764

Participant

Hi t,
There is apparent conflict between the two statements of yours below.
In one you show that God has manifested IN Christ Jesus which I agree with.
In the second you claim they are the same being.

Which is true?

Are they one being in two forms as modalism and trinity theorists propose
Or was God IN Christ as scripture tells us?
Your words:

” He has manifested Himself in the man Jesus Christ permanently (Heb. 1:4: 2 Cor. 4:4,6). For Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodliy (Col. 2:9).”

” Father and Son are not two persons, but one God existing in two ways simultaneously”.[/quote]

August 8, 2006 at 12:18 am#23778

Participant

Jesus referred to the Scriptures as Scriptures, which is what they were called in the Pld Testament. Dan 10:21 But I will show you that which is written in the Scripture of Truth… Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, Did you never read in the Scriptures….. Mat 26:54 But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?

As for Jesus being God, yet the Son of God, I see it this way. God said Let us make man in Our image Gen 1:26. Gos is 3, Father Son and Holy Spirit, yet the 3 are one. We are a 3 part being, yet the 3 are one. We are body, soul and spirit. The body is self explanatory, the soul is our identity and our ability to reason, the spirit is our conscience. God the Father is the Soul, Jesus the body and the Holy Spirit the Righteousness of God revealed.

August 8, 2006 at 12:25 am#23779

Participant

Hey Nick,

I cited Bullingers because he seemed to be the least swayed by church traditions. The best would be to simply look up an online Greek interlinear and do a word study from the actual translated Greek. Bullinger did that right within the KJV Bible, (that's why its called the Companion Bible). However, it shouldn't be too difficult to look up other instances where “Logos” is translated elsewhere. It can then be read in context in each verse.

Bless ya',

Semmy

August 8, 2006 at 12:32 am#23780

Participant

Actually, further to my last post, I have a different relationship with the Father than I do with Jesus. Remember that Jesus was/is the way to the Father, Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

For further info on this you might want to look at my page http://www.all4god.net/power_shift.htm

At the same time, check out http://www.all4god.net/word_of_god.htm and let me know what you think. Remember that this page does not go along with traditional thinking, so ask the Lord if it's true and don't just reject it cos it's different.

August 8, 2006 at 12:53 am#23782

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 08 2006,01:18)

Hi Oxy,
If Jesus is the BODY of God and that body was conceived in Mary did he not exist before then with the Father?

Is body all that he was ?

We are body soul and spirit
and he was made like unto us
so how come the difference?

Was he anointed by the Spirit at the Jordan?
If so how did he have life before that anointing if he was only a body?

August 8, 2006 at 1:01 am#23784

Participant

T, I'm going to need some Tylenol pretty quick here.

You side-stepped a direct question. I didn't ask if you believed in denominationalism.
I asked if you were or subscribe to the beliefs of Oneness Pentecostals. So you're a Modalist, fine.
No one like double-talk around here so just tell the truth.

Listen, you are MISTRANSLATING THE WORD MANIFEST. When Yahweh MANIFESTED
Himself to Moses in the burning bush, did He BECOME a burning bush? No. Read what it
says and then get a dictionary to see what manifest means vs incarnation. The latter of
which you are trying to replace for word manifest. God is NOT a man nor did He ever become
a man, period. Even after his ascention to Heaven, the Lord Jesus is referred to as a man
in scripture. Also scripture says there is but ONE mediator between God and man, THE MAN Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5) Now you can't be in the place of God and then at the same time be mediating between God and man. Its not only silly, its illogical and NOT what scripture says.

You completely steered away from addressing this verse or do you think John was lying?

“No one has EVER SEEN GOD, but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us. ” [1 John 4:12]

This was written by the apostle whom the Lord Jesus loved, ate with, slept beside and he says NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD. He didn't add, that He's only invisible until he makes Himself visible! Why would he make such a statement if Jesus was God in human flesh?

Also to be clear, Adam did not have a “natural father” either. He was not born but created and Christ is called the LAST Adam. 1 Corn 15:45. Yes, Jesus was begotten but you have to have a BEGETTER in order for this to happen. Scripture says God the Father begot Jesus. God had to be here first for that to happen.

The Lord Jesus and the Father are not ONE GOD. Nick has shown you the contradictions of your OWN scriptural citings and comments.

Here's more:

There is an important difference between the two.

Matthew 28:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All authority (not “power”) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Jesus was given authority [“exousia” – Gk]. Authority comes only from a higher source. It must be delegated. Authority cannot exist unless there is a higher source in which it can be based. Like links in a chain, positions of authority are completely dependent upon the higher links. Cut one of the higher links and all support is cut off for any links below.

Soldiers understand authority and rank. Each rank, or position of authority, rests upon the ranks above it. Authority always comes from above. Jesus was given authority. Jesus could not have been given authority unless there was someone higher to give it to Him. That higher source was Yahweh not himself.

Last Point:

Answer these two questions from scripture please, (without trying to use qualifiiers not found in the Bible)…..

1.) Does the Lord Jesus have a God?

2.) Does God the Father have a god?

You haven't answered a straight question yet. Let's see how you do with these!

Semmy

August 8, 2006 at 2:28 am#23788