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Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:16) I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Where?Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:16) I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Where?
Perhaps, I did not address this specifically to you but I said:Quote Yes, capturing people and selling them to others forcing them to be slaves or any kind of slavery that is done by force is wrong. Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:04) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:16) I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Where?
Perhaps, I did not address this specifically to you but I said:Quote Yes, capturing people and selling them to others forcing them to be slaves or any kind of slavery that is done by force is wrong.
If you say that, you disagree with the bible.Lev 25:44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.
Lev 25:45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.
Lev 25:46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.Do you think that all slaves were by choice of the slave?
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,14:38) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:04) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:16) I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Where?
Perhaps, I did not address this specifically to you but I said:Quote Yes, capturing people and selling them to others forcing them to be slaves or any kind of slavery that is done by force is wrong.
If you say that, you disagree with the bible.Lev 25:44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.
Lev 25:45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.
Lev 25:46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.Do you think that all slaves were by choice of the slave?
Hi KJ:There are some occasions in the OT where it probably was not, and I believe that it is wrong to force anyone do do anything that is against their will, and I believe that God does also, and this is why God gave man a free will.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,14:47) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,14:38) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:04) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:16) I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Where?
Perhaps, I did not address this specifically to you but I said:Quote Yes, capturing people and selling them to others forcing them to be slaves or any kind of slavery that is done by force is wrong.
If you say that, you disagree with the bible.Lev 25:44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.
Lev 25:45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.
Lev 25:46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.Do you think that all slaves were by choice of the slave?
Hi KJ:There are some occasions in the OT where it probably was not, and I believe that it is wrong to force anyone do do anything that is against their will, and I believe that God does also, and this is why God gave man a free will.
Hi 94,God said that they could buy these slaves and they would be their property.
why would God condone slavery, owning another human as property?
He gave hundreds and hundreds of thou shalt nots. why was this a thou may?
It seems that to GOd, the Israelites were the only true humans in His creation. Everything, and everyone else was on earth to be solely used by them.Tim
90210's desparation for there to be a god and for his fantasy to be right is quite distressing. For him to be talking it up so zealously indicates to me that he has some serious doubts about it. I have serious doubts about what I believe too but that is how it should be. It is not a painful point like it seems to be for our numerate colleague here.
Stuart
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 06 2008,23:13) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,14:47) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,14:38) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:04) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:37) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:16) I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Where?
Perhaps, I did not address this specifically to you but I said:Quote Yes, capturing people and selling them to others forcing them to be slaves or any kind of slavery that is done by force is wrong.
If you say that, you disagree with the bible.Lev 25:44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.
Lev 25:45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.
Lev 25:46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.Do you think that all slaves were by choice of the slave?
Hi KJ:There are some occasions in the OT where it probably was not, and I believe that it is wrong to force anyone do do anything that is against their will, and I believe that God does also, and this is why God gave man a free will.
Hi 94,God said that they could buy these slaves and they would be their property.
why would God condone slavery, owning another human as property?
He gave hundreds and hundreds of thou shalt nots. why was this a thou may?
It seems that to GOd, the Israelites were the only true humans in His creation. Everything, and everyone else was on earth to be solely used by them.Tim
Hi Tim:I don't know why God allowed them to buy slaves and treat them as their property.
It appears that the Israelites needed workers to help with the farming, and this was a way of supplying the labor. The gentile families that sold themselves or their children into slavery apparently did it voluntarily.
Beyond that I don't have an answer to your question at this time. I will seek God in prayer and ask Him why He allowed this, and I will get back to you when I have an answer.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:31) It appears that the Israelites needed workers to help with the farming, and this was a way of supplying the labor. The gentile families that sold themselves or their children into slavery apparently did it voluntarily.
If I sell my daughter into slavery, is that a voluntary action on my daughter's part?You are assuming to the benefit of your beliefs. Owning other humans as property is wrong. It may not have been at one time according to societal standards, but that brings into question the never-changing nature of your god. Or are you saying your god changes with the times? If he does, what does that say to you?
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,06:56) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:31) It appears that the Israelites needed workers to help with the farming, and this was a way of supplying the labor. The gentile families that sold themselves or their children into slavery apparently did it voluntarily.
If I sell my daughter into slavery, is that a voluntary action on my daughter's part?You are assuming to the benefit of your beliefs. Owning other humans as property is wrong. It may not have been at one time according to societal standards, but that brings into question the never-changing nature of your god. Or are you saying your god changes with the times? If he does, what does that say to you?
I know God changes his mind sometimes when he intends to punish someone and they repent because he is a merciful God that I do know, and I know that He is a righteous and Holy God.As I told Tim, I'll have to pray and ask God for an explanation of these things relative to slavery. I don't have the answers at this time, but I know that there is an explanation.
94, don't sweat it. No one in the past has been able to supply an adequate answer to slavery in the bible, I don't expect you too either.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2008,05:31) Hi Tim: I don't know why God allowed them to buy slaves and treat them as their property.
It appears that the Israelites needed workers to help with the farming, and this was a way of supplying the labor. The gentile families that sold themselves or their children into slavery apparently did it voluntarily.
Beyond that I don't have an answer to your question at this time. I will seek God in prayer and ask Him why He allowed this, and I will get back to you when I have an answer.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Thank you for giving this an honest, heartfelt look.
Usually when a Christian is asked this kind of question, one that is really difficult to answer with a good conscience, they will do one of two things:
1.Pretend that the passages are not there and change the subject when they are mentioned.
2.Try to develop some sort of highly convoluted rationalization on God's behalf to explain the passages.I hope that you do not use either of these ploys. I believe that you are truly an enthusiastic believer and I am anxious to hear what God tells you.
There are dozens of passages in both the old and the new testament that show that God condones slavery. So what are we to make of it?
On the one hand, we all know that slavery is an outrage and a moral abomination. As a result, slavery is now completely illegal throughout the developed world.
On the other hand, the creator of the universe states in writing that slavery is perfectly acceptable. Beating your slaves is fine. Enslaving children is fine. Separating slave families is fine. according to the Bible. I can see only two possible explanations.•The Bible is right, and God loves slavery. The entire Bible is God's word, so these slavery passages must be God's word too. The laws in the United States and other modern nations that make slavery illegal defy God's word.
•The Bible condones slavery because the Bible was written by slave-owning men, not by God.
Chances are that you may have a problem with the first explanation. God would not champion the abomination that is slavery.
Therefore, what I am left with is the second explanation.May God bless you 94 and give you answers that He has seen fit to withhold from me.
Tim
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 06 2008,23:58) I have serious doubts about what I believe too but that is how it should be.
Really? What do you seriously doubt?Mandy
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 07 2008,10:35) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2008,05:31) Hi Tim: I don't know why God allowed them to buy slaves and treat them as their property.
It appears that the Israelites needed workers to help with the farming, and this was a way of supplying the labor. The gentile families that sold themselves or their children into slavery apparently did it voluntarily.
Beyond that I don't have an answer to your question at this time. I will seek God in prayer and ask Him why He allowed this, and I will get back to you when I have an answer.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Thank you for giving this an honest, heartfelt look.
Usually when a Christian is asked this kind of question, one that is really difficult to answer with a good conscience, they will do one of two things:
1.Pretend that the passages are not there and change the subject when they are mentioned.
2.Try to develop some sort of highly convoluted rationalization on God's behalf to explain the passages.I hope that you do not use either of these ploys. I believe that you are truly an enthusiastic believer and I am anxious to hear what God tells you.
There are dozens of passages in both the old and the new testament that show that God condones slavery. So what are we to make of it?
On the one hand, we all know that slavery is an outrage and a moral abomination. As a result, slavery is now completely illegal throughout the developed world.
On the other hand, the creator of the universe states in writing that slavery is perfectly acceptable. Beating your slaves is fine. Enslaving children is fine. Separating slave families is fine. according to the Bible. I can see only two possible explanations.•The Bible is right, and God loves slavery. The entire Bible is God's word, so these slavery passages must be God's word too. The laws in the United States and other modern nations that make slavery illegal defy God's word.
•The Bible condones slavery because the Bible was written by slave-owning men, not by God.
Chances are that you may have a problem with the first explanation. God would not champion the abomination that is slavery.
Therefore, what I am left with is the second explanation.May God bless you 94 and give you answers that He has seen fit to withhold from me.
Tim
Hi Tim:I said that I believe that forcing anyone to do anything is wrong and I do not believe that my morals are higher than that of the Almighty, and so there has to be an explanation for why it was allowed. He gives us a free will so that whatever we do we will do because we want to do it. It is men that try to control others and force them to do what they want them to do, and sometimes they succeed, and God allows it for a reason. It is perhaps the reason we have to understand.
God will not withhold the explanation from us if we seek understanding from Him without trying to accuse Him of wrong doing. I have prayed and I am waiting for Him to answer.
God Bless
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2008,11:38) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 06 2008,23:58) I have serious doubts about what I believe too but that is how it should be.
Really? What do you seriously doubt?Mandy
Everything. Which is why I believe what I believe is true. As soon as you know you are right, you are almost certainly wrong about many things. Notice the use of 'almost certainly' there!There are several bundaries beyond which we simply cannot know things. That is no concession to religious superstition because the religious are just as ignorant as anyone, except they don't have the honesty to admit it, they just use the 'I can't imagine it so god did it' nonsense.
Once you are uncertain you can start to work out how likely you are that you have learned the truth.
Stuart
Hi 90210
I think my ethics are better than your god's. For a start I have completely failed to commit genocide, and I don't even hate figs.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 08 2008,00:40) Hi 90210 I think my ethics are better than your god's. For a start I have completely failed to commit genocide, and I don't even hate figs.
Stuart
Hi Stu:“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”.
Hi Stu:
Quote Pro 30:12 [There is] a generation [that are] pure in their own eyes, and [yet] is not washed from their filthiness. Quote Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Quote (942767 @ Sep. 08 2008,07:14) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 08 2008,00:40) Hi 90210 I think my ethics are better than your god's. For a start I have completely failed to commit genocide, and I don't even hate figs.
Stuart
Hi Stu:“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”.
Wrong. I'm less a sinner than your god because I am not guilty of mass murder like 'he' is. I dare say the same is true of you.Stuart
Stu,
The bible god is the god of love, but he is also a just god. People that Yahweh killed (or were killed in the name of) were deserving of death. Think of the various heinous crimes they committed: picking up sticks on Saturday, not impregnating a dead brother's wife, sassing parents, calling a prophet “baldy”, being in the path of the Israelites on the way to the “Promised Land”, not being in Noah's family, worshiping other gods, not worshiping Yahweh, etc. You know such ruthless crimes deserved death.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 08 2008,23:43) Stu, The bible god is the god of love, but he is also a just god. People that Yahweh killed (or were killed in the name of) were deserving of death. Think of the various heinous crimes they committed: picking up sticks on Saturday, not impregnating a dead brother's wife, sassing parents, calling a prophet “baldy”, being in the path of the Israelites on the way to the “Promised Land”, not being in Noah's family, worshiping other gods, not worshiping Yahweh, etc. You know such ruthless crimes deserved death.
Yes I see now. That nasty piece of bit of work that Lot married. How feeble of her to not overcome her god-given curiosity. Ussah should not have followed his god-given conscience to catch the ark in a reflex action. These people not only deserved to die but they should be punished for eternity. That seems fair.Stuart
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