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Instead of defining slavery as work without pay (which could apply to children of parents) maybe we should define it the way it has traditionally been understood–owning other humans as property and being able to do pretty much whatever you want with them. And they can’t leave. Perhaps some of these slaves were captured during a war. And you take one of these woman slaves as a wife. This is more so what I’m talking about, biblical slavery. Two sets of general rules–one for fellow Hebrew slaves, who were not to be treated cruelly but were to be treated like a hired worker. And non-Hebrew slaves who you could beat as long as you didn’t blind them, knock out a tooth, or beat them so bad they couldn’t get up after a couple days. So this is the slavery I am addressing.
If we say God didn’t approve of this form of slavery, why did he not simply add a command: “no slaves.” Two words. There are hundreds of rules in the mosaic law, some very minor, but no condemnation of slavery, no hint that it was bad. On what basis therefore do you say God wasn’t approving slavery?
and if you say slavery is wrong, how would we ever come to that conclusion from the bible? Where does our morality really come from today?
well let see the beginning of human history /all people had enough land to do his own thing according to his own will ,
so tell me what happen that things took a turn ? from there
I’m really only interested in slavery and the morality of it. If you are not interested, that’s okay.
So if that is morality, treating your fellow humans as you want to be treated, if you applied that morality in the past, slavery is and was immoral. No one wants to be beaten or owned.
Our morality comes from our society,culture,upbringing and personally our own experiences and decisions of course. Of course slavery was always wrong but it has always been a dog eat dog world and thankfully some of us dogs have become better humans. And as we as a race change so our understanding of the universe,religion or vision of God changes.
David
when people start to grow in numbers things start to change ,the fact that people are not behaving has they should in love /nothing as changed since those days ,some groups as been formed and destroyed for selfish reason ,it is true that morality can only exist if we all agree on its application ,
but in the eyes of God abusing of your fellow man is a sin a terrible sin for those that practice slavery
Men’s ideas change. God does not change. If slavery is immoral he should have always known. No hint in the bible that god dislikes slavery. People in the past didn’t seem to have any moral qualms with slavery, including the Jews. And there was no one to explain to them that it was immoral.
How do you define “abusing you fellow man”? Would a beating be abusing them? Would killing a tribe, including a woman’s family, her husband, and then taking her as a wife, against her will, be “abusing your fellow man”? Today the world would define this as sex slavery but in the past, it was common, killing all the men, taking the virgins as wives. How can this be moral in the past, but obscene today? Have the worlds standards increased so much? Why would the bible not even hint that slavery was not an optimal system?
David
anything that would make your fellow men lower than you in the power you would have acquired from your personal ability ,this would I consider abusing
even if you tread animals without respect it would mean abusing them for they have not been created by God for that purpose
this remind me about the story of Jacob’s sons and their sister Dinah that was taken by the son of another family group and end up by the killing of all males ;Jacob was left destroyed in his soul that his son could do a thing like that ,
old practice are not necessary good but it was the way of live ,without God this is what happen ,
in our modern day it is not better the powerful feeds us with lies ,teach us lies ,and bring us to war that can be avoided but for the interest of a few they will go, and destroy millions sad ,but without God this is what happen
please do not forget that it is men corruption that give birth to those abuses as degrading they can be ,this is what happen without God
Hi
twice you said these bad things are what happens without god. But this is my point. God wasn’t absent. God made rules for slavery. How you couldn’t beat them too severely for example. These things weren’t happening without god. He created rules for slavery apparently.
hi David
and yes you right God in his laws ad covered the slavery but not the abuse on slavery in Israel ,the abuses were ban in Israel by law
but many times Israel broke the law and so they lived without God abusing their slaves even their less fortunate brothers
all those things are /have been seen by God ;but in due time we all be judge for the things we have said and done ,justice will prevail at the end
all those things happen to separate us as wicked or righteous ones
remember that Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and bad ; and so we have through the ages taste the good and bad understanding of what it is to be following God or not following him
to do this Adam and Eve lost their lives but we also did
It is telling that no one in the bible ever condemns slavery outright but the principle of do unto others, and love,if taken literally should condemn such practice.
During the American civil war and the time leading up to the conflict,those who were pro confederacy believed God was on their side because they had the bible on their side and there was much preaching on it. The confederacy were the underdogs with less people and ammunition but with God on their side they would win like the outnumbered Israelites did in the bible.Fortunately it didn’t turn out that way.
The statement that God never changes needs to be looked at in the context in which it was stated,for in the bible as the circumstances change so do the prophets,what God has to say,religious practices,and the peoples view of God.
“and yes you [are] right[.] God in his laws [h]ad covered the slavery[,] but not the abuse on slavery in Israel ,the abuses were ban[ned] in Israel by law”–terr
The abuses against fellow Hebrews were banned in Israel. The indentured servitude. They were not to treat their brothers cruelly. Yes. But the actual real slaves, the ones they took captive, the non-Jews, the ones who they were allowed to beat, but not to beat so much that they knocked out a tooth or blinded them or so much that they couldn’t get up after a couple days, this is the slavery I’m concerned with.
What do do you consider abuse? If you were taken from your family and not allowed to escape, and you were beaten would this be considered abuse? What do you consider abuse? Many people consider taking someone’s freedom away as abuse. If your family were killed and you were taken as someone’s wife, without your consent, is this abuse? (I actually can’t remember if you are a man or a woman)
“It is telling that no one in the bible ever condemns slavery outright but the principle of do unto others, and love,if taken literally should condemn such practice.”
I’ve had this thought also. But I’m not sure. Saying to love someone is very vague. Saying you can beat someone is pretty specific.
If I told you two things:
1. love your slave. 2. You may beat slaves.
How would this be understood? Parents were to love their children. But they were also to beat there children with rods. (See 5 proverb scriptures). So the parent that beats their son also believes they love their son. They believe what they are doing is right and good. Is their thinking twisted? Do they really love their son? I know they think they do. Maybe their idea of love is wrong. The amount of sociopaths who killed their wives believing they loved their wives is high. Maybe people’s ideas of love has changed. Beating wives used to be common and legal. Husbands believed they were disciplining their wives. And they loved their wives. And they beat their wives. So something is wrong here. Their idea of love included beatings. I would say that isn’t love.
The general unspecific idea of love doesn’t erase the idea of slavery. All I tells us is that they considered slavery as okay and not immoral.
And of course while Jesus took he silver rule and made it better, changing it into the golden rule, a great rule, he also gave many illustrations that includes slaves. He normalized it. He never criticized it. Never hinted that it was wrong. Just mentioned it like it was normal.
Today mankind considers slavery the easiest of moral questions. The bible writers didn’t seem to have any incite on this fact back then. They seem to have been just expressing the ideas of their times.
“The statement that God never changes needs to be looked at in the context in which it was stated,for in the bible as the circumstances change so do the prophets,what God has to say,religious practices,and the peoples view of God.”
If slavery is immoral, it makes sense that a God, a supreme being, would know this. Slavery wasn’t a moral practice That became immoral. The same reasons that it is considered immoral today make it immoral in the past. People hadn’t worked it out back then.
hi David
I am a old man ,
your reasoning seem to me normal ,but if you look at the people that loved God and that God loved ,behavior you can see that they do not practice slavery ,nor abuses ,while punishment for bad behavior must be dealt with ,in a constructive way
even the Roman officers that came to Jesus or to Peter look how they were treating their household and slaves ,
I also believe that in the scriptures I have read that anyone living in Israel was to be govern as a Israelite slave or no slave for the land was given by God to Israel as a blessing ,
the reason for the violence is from wicked nations ,and Israel was worn not to live like them ,
nothing in this regard as ever changed from God ‘s point only men drifted away from God and his righteousness
hopefully this will eventually come to a end so my faith tell ‘s me
there are many things that God as to put up during our existence but this is why it say that we all be judged for what we have done and said
God plan as never changed we have
Hi david
If I told you two things:1. love your slave. 2. You may beat slaves.
How would this be understood?
==================================in the lod times you ad also trade people they are also slaves but with pay and independant
but like today you have those slaves that are not trained in anything and so become household workers ,or general labors ,those ad regulations how to behave with the masters ,
some nations practice children labor slave still today ;this in the western world with christian views condemn this type of slavery ,but this is also the result of poverty and the need to survive other slavery are sexuality perversion
there are many things that should not exist but does ,satan did not do us any service
It seems like we are almost saying god is a victim or a bystander to this practice of slavery. Yet all he had to do was say: “you shall have no slaves.” And: “you shall not beat slaves.” Had the nations around been having slaves and the Hebrews stood out as different, thousands of years ahead of the rest of the world, it would have been miraculous. Morally progressive and ahead of everyone else. They seemed to be like the nations around them as far as their morals go. They essentially committed genocide on several tribes but kept the Virgins for themselves. Those were in modern terms “sex slaves.”
“there are many things that should not exist but does ,satan did not do us any service”
Satan is not the one who seems to be regulating, condoning, and allowing the system of slavery among the Hebrews.
The thing that I think should bother people is: God made commands and rules for a ton of things that today seem extremely minor. Putting the wrong clothes together. Cutting your sidelocks, picking up sticks on the sabbath even. But slavery. It’s not simply that he didn’t mention it as a thing the world now easily sees as a moral outrage. The bible isn’t silent on slavery. It has much to say. But none of it is negative.
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