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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2014,14:15) If it doesn't help me or save my life, then I would rather pass on that one.
T8. Why do you keep saying to hit or beat you if it saves your lifeDo you believe that this is what slavery (of the forced nature) was about–saving lives?
Quote (david @ Mar. 10 2014,06:13) I have been away for a while. I went to another country where slavery still exists. I bought some people and they are now my possessions or property. My money. I am careful not to injure their teeth or eyes but I do beat them with a stick as a form of discipline from time to time. It seems these servants or slaves pay no heed to words. What choice do I have? (Prov 29:19)
While I know this is scripturally ok, I'm starting to have second thoughts about it. What do others think?
What do others think about me?
It does not seem like slavery was ever done away with from a biblical standpoint. It seems like it's something that we should still be teaching:
1 TIMOTHY 6:1-3
“Let those who are under the yoke of SLAVERY keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. Moreover, let those having believing owners not be disrespectful to them because they are brothers. Rather, they should serve more readily, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved. KEEP ON TEACHING THESE THINGS and giving these exhortations. IF ANY MAN TEACHES ANOTHER DOCTRINE and does not agree with the wholesome instruction…”(The above is of course made up.)
“God obviously would not be happy with you if you took someone at random off the street and turned them into a slave, yet God hands people over to slavery at certain times.”–t8Given 1 Timothy, when do you think things changed t8?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2014,11:52) Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2014,03:06) So, t8, to be clear, you believe that forced slavery (being taken against your will, and forced to be a slave) is morally wrong? Why would God allow and even command something such as this?
I have been waiting for you to ask this. I walked into your trap intentionally.God says that we shall not kill, yet commands certain people in history to do just that. He commanded one person to sacrifice his own son, (although told him not to at the last minute).
God obviously would not be happy with you if you took someone at random off the street and turned them into a slave, yet God hands people over to slavery at certain times.
It is obviously wrong to drown someone, yet God drowned a who aeon of people minus 8.
It is obvious that burning someone at the stake is wrong, yet God throws the wicked into the Lake of Fire.
Now I will get right to answering the next obvious questions. Let's cut to the chase. Let's expose the hypocrisy of God or at least the inaccuracies of scriptures for painting a good God in such a so-called bad light.
After all, the God in scripture is basically saying, 'do as I say, don't do as I do'. 'I command you not to do this or that, unless I make a specific request to do so' and if you are obedient, then I take responsibility and will not punish you for it.
Are there anymore questions or insinuations against the Most High. I am sure there are even better ones than this. Maybe we just need to ask Job's friends, or the one-third of the angels that rebelled. Even Satan would have probably much better accusations against the Most High after all if anyone has thought about exposing God it is him.
David, welcome to the rebellion. Will you get caught up and put God on trial as these have. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. Perhaps you will be too scared to question this all the way to its logical end and rebel once you realise the injustice of it all. Or perhaps your religion does not allow such questions to be asked and hence by ignorance be spared any unforgivable sin. Yet, the world is only being caught up in that which has already happened. There is nothing new under the sun.
But here is where I stand. God can do what he wants and he does. No one can compete with him because he is before them and after them. If he is evil, we are all screwed. If he is good, then that is perhaps the single greatest blessing and fortune for all living things.
But I believe and trust that he is indeed good. Only he has the foresight to see all ages. Only he has the foresight to allow people to be disciplined in order to became better people. Did God set up slavery or did man or demon do that? And did God only hand people over to the very things that they have crafted with their own hands? God says, “what you sow is what you reap, and IMO, I think God just uses that which is here in the world. If men make guns, then men will die by guns. If they take slaves, then they will be slaves. If they pollute the world, then they will suffer that pollution.
I believe that had man lived God's way from the beginning, then we would be in Paradise today. But we didn't and rather than God just walking away from us to destroy ourselves, he will often give us a dose of our own medicine so that we can learn the errors of our ways.
If we are in slavery, perhaps our mentality was to enslave people. And having such a mentality, and then being a slave, surely helps us to learn even if it is learning the hard way.
As you may choose to doubt God, or to judge him, I instinctively know that he is good and rewards the righteous and humble. But opposes the proud, the unbelievers, and the selfish.
Welcome to the world david. Where every man's faith is tested. When the fire comes, will you burn up, or will you come out refined? Whose side will you ultimately find yourself on?
I don't know how I missed this giant post until moments ago.I can't really see that you directly answer this question t8
You say forced slavery is wrong.
So does it not seem contradictory to say that Israelite forced slavery wasn't wrong?
This really does come down to the question of whether god tells us what is good or god decides what is good. Beating becomes good when god says it is. Forced marriage or sex becomes ok if god says it is.
Or is it that god simply passes on what is right or wrong.
It seems the former.
Quote I have been waiting for you to ask this. I walked into your trap intentionally. It was not much of a trap. It's more of a difficult difficult question that thinking people ask.
Does morality change? We are told god does not change. Can forced slavery be considered morally good in the past while being largely considered an abomination by many today, being declared a crime against humanity by all nations?
Not an easy question.
Simply saying: I know that god is good, doesn't really answer the question.
Were things just more barbaric back then and it was acceptable because of this? Was hamstringing horses, which is considered torture today, just normal back then? Have we become too soft? Are beatings the natural normal human condition, but people have become distorted in thinking, falsely believing that beating forced slaves is wrong? Or that kidnapping virgins while killing the men is wrong? Maybe it's just normal and humans today are wrong.
This is why I started out by suggesting I am doing these things. If your reaction was anything other than: “oh, ok.” Then it seems you feel steeling people and enslaving them is wrong as well.
I am interested in looking into the harder to understand things. I think this is one of them. Also, psychics aren't real. Smiley face.
T8, why do you think I'm rebelling. Perhaps I just want to bring slavery back, biblical style. Slavery even though illegal still exists in some places.
If I have the money, why wouldn't I want slaves? There seem no reasons beyond the legality of it, Right.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2014,11:52) Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2014,03:06) So, t8, to be clear, you believe that forced slavery (being taken against your will, and forced to be a slave) is morally wrong? Why would God allow and even command something such as this?
I have been waiting for you to ask this. I walked into your trap intentionally.God says that we shall not kill, yet commands certain people in history to do just that. He commanded one person to sacrifice his own son, (although told him not to at the last minute).
God obviously would not be happy with you if you took someone at random off the street and turned them into a slave, yet God hands people over to slavery at certain times.
It is obviously wrong to drown someone, yet God drowned a who aeon of people minus 8.
It is obvious that burning someone at the stake is wrong, yet God throws the wicked into the Lake of Fire.
Now I will get right to answering the next obvious questions. Let's cut to the chase. Let's expose the hypocrisy of God or at least the inaccuracies of scriptures for painting a good God in such a so-called bad light.
After all, the God in scripture is basically saying, 'do as I say, don't do as I do'. 'I command you not to do this or that, unless I make a specific request to do so' and if you are obedient, then I take responsibility and will not punish you for it.
Are there anymore questions or insinuations against the Most High. I am sure there are even better ones than this. Maybe we just need to ask Job's friends, or the one-third of the angels that rebelled. Even Satan would have probably much better accusations against the Most High after all if anyone has thought about exposing God it is him.
David, welcome to the rebellion. Will you get caught up and put God on trial as these have. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. Perhaps you will be too scared to question this all the way to its logical end and rebel once you realise the injustice of it all. Or perhaps your religion does not allow such questions to be asked and hence by ignorance be spared any unforgivable sin. Yet, the world is only being caught up in that which has already happened. There is nothing new under the sun.
But here is where I stand. God can do what he wants and he does. No one can compete with him because he is before them and after them. If he is evil, we are all screwed. If he is good, then that is perhaps the single greatest blessing and fortune for all living things.
But I believe and trust that he is indeed good. Only he has the foresight to see all ages. Only he has the foresight to allow people to be disciplined in order to became better people. Did God set up slavery or did man or demon do that? And did God only hand people over to the very things that they have crafted with their own hands? God says, “what you sow is what you reap, and IMO, I think God just uses that which is here in the world. If men make guns, then men will die by guns. If they take slaves, then they will be slaves. If they pollute the world, then they will suffer that pollution.
I believe that had man lived God's way from the beginning, then we would be in Paradise today. But we didn't and rather than God just walking away from us to destroy ourselves, he will often give us a dose of our own medicine so that we can learn the errors of our ways.
If we are in slavery, perhaps our mentality was to enslave people. And having such a mentality, and then being a slave, surely helps us to learn even if it is learning the hard way.
As you may choose to doubt God, or to judge him, I instinctively know that he is good and rewards the righteous and humble. But opposes the proud, the unbelievers, and the selfish.
Welcome to the world david. Where every man's faith is tested. When the fire comes, will you burn up, or will you come out refined? Whose side will you ultimately find yourself on?
This post of T8's is a great example of how book idolatry combined with the churches creation of the inspired doctrine, can lead a person to justify the most outrageous lies/beliefs about God. This is the mythical monster God of the OT created by the Jews recasting and justifying the genocide of their own doing.COLTER
Quote This post of T8's is a great example of how book idolatry combined with the churches creation of the inspired doctrine, can lead a person to justify the most outrageous lies/beliefs about God. This is the mythical monster God of the OT created by the Jews recasting and justifying the genocide of their own doing. I have to disagree with you here, sins Christ the Jews are not the only nation that have been persecuted ,Armenians are another ; and basically for the same reasons ,
this is why all religion are wrong and should be a single or few people showing examples in their faith believing in the one God and the one he send rather than grouping up in single units for protection in this world but seek protection in God's power to protect .many religion try to believe that by grouping up they will recreate Israel nation ;the worldly nation ,
no evidence to be saved in group but only as a single soul ;for the things we did and the things we should have done and did not do ,
ONLY THE NATION OF ISRAEL STAND AT ONE TIME AS A UNIT BEFORE GOD THEIR GOD ,AND THEY HAVE REJECTED HIM TO GO AFTER THE WORLD RICHES ,GODS
T8
I very often try to put myself into other people's minds and see things as they would.
So how would you explain to an average person, maybe to someone who doesn't believe in the bible or God, and who agrees as most do that slavery is morally wrong, a crime against humanity…explain to them about slavery.
Don't confuse people being “slaves” to Christ, or “slaves” to the world empire of international bankers, etc.
And dont focus on the Hebrew “hired worker” servants who were called slaves but who chose to be slaves. Rather, please focus on the actual slavery in the bible, the enslavement of foreign people, especially women, and particularly virgins.
Please speak to this. I know the good point has been raised that just as god ALLOWS divorce because of the hard heartedness of the people, maybe he similarly allowed and allows slavery. But this does not seem like the case, and I'm not sure this even makes sense given gods power to create whatever law he wishes. Rather than regulate forced slavery, would it have been possible to ablolish it? Sure, it makes life easier if you steel people, kill their husbands, and force those people to do work for you. But couldn't life have just been harder for the Israelites rather than owning other humans as possessions? That is what I do not get. Maybe I am seeing this entirely wrong or from a 21st century perspective and maybe that thinking is twisted up beyond recognition, but if it is, could you explain how.
David
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 18 2014,06:43) COLTER Quote This post of T8's is a great example of how book idolatry combined with the churches creation of the inspired doctrine, can lead a person to justify the most outrageous lies/beliefs about God. This is the mythical monster God of the OT created by the Jews recasting and justifying the genocide of their own doing. I have to disagree with you here, sins Christ the Jews are not the only nation that have been persecuted ,Armenians are another ; and basically for the same reasons ,
this is why all religion are wrong and should be a single or few people showing examples in their faith believing in the one God and the one he send rather than grouping up in single units for protection in this world but seek protection in God's power to protect .many religion try to believe that by grouping up they will recreate Israel nation ;the worldly nation ,
no evidence to be saved in group but only as a single soul ;for the things we did and the things we should have done and did not do ,
ONLY THE NATION OF ISRAEL STAND AT ONE TIME AS A UNIT BEFORE GOD THEIR GOD ,AND THEY HAVE REJECTED HIM TO GO AFTER THE WORLD RICHES ,GODS
I agree that God did work with the Jews, he incarnate as one of them. But they developed a chosen people arrogance, the books they wrote about themselves shows it.Colter.
If the bible is corrupted.
Why do you need that book as your back up?
When the roots are corrupt the whole tree is corrupt.
Why do you have to eat some of the fruits?Why can't the ub stand on its own feet?
Same with the qur'an,and the mormons.
The Holy bible does not quote nor depend, on any other books to proof herself.
She stands firmly on her own feet.We can depend on her,for God has preserved His Word,
for us to seek into. God knows from the beginning,and has
worked things out from the beginning,to keep His Word unblemished.He knows, many wolves will come in sheeps clothing.He is not ignorant to the fact.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 18 2014,19:18) Colter. If the bible is corrupted.
Why do you need that book as your back up?
When the roots are corrupt the whole tree is corrupt.
Why do you have to eat some of the fruits?Why can't the ub stand on its own feet?
Same with the qur'an,and the mormons.
The Holy bible does not quote nor depend, on any other books to proof herself.
She stands firmly on her own feet.We can depend on her,for God has preserved His Word,
for us to seek into. God knows from the beginning,and has
worked things out from the beginning,to keep His Word unblemished.He knows, many wolves will come in sheeps clothing.He is not ignorant to the fact.wakeup.
Nothing apart from God is perfect or complete Wakeup.The Jews do not own revelatory history on this earth, there was a great deal of history that occured before the agreement with Abram. 1,000,000 years of human evolution and cultural development.
The pride and humiliation of the captive Babylonian redactors tempted them to rewrite and OWN a revelatory history that was previously meant for all mankind.
You don't seem to realize how much of your view of history is colored by the story line of the Hebrew government.
Just like i take Obama's government statements with a grain of salt I take the Hebrew governments outrageous, and obvious exaggerations with a grain of salt.
I wish more religious people would question church government and it's writings the same way they question secular government.
I trust God, I approach all religious writings through God first, not the other way around.
Colter.
Have you read the book of Enoch?
He was of the old world, before the jews.
His testimony is in harmony with the bible.
God did create Adam and Eve.
There was a garden of Eden and Adam was put there.
There was a serpent that tempted Eve.I am sure that Enoch has nothing to do with the jews.
So you are falsly accusing all the prophets of God.
That makes you the accuser of things that are Holy.Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
***for the accuser of our brethren is cast down***,
***which accused them before our God day and night***.wakeup.
Quote (david @ Mar. 18 2014,03:06) T8 I very often try to put myself into other people's minds and see things as they would.
So how would you explain to an average person, maybe to someone who doesn't believe in the bible or God, and who agrees as most do that slavery is morally wrong, a crime against humanity…explain to them about slavery.
Don't confuse people being “slaves” to Christ, or “slaves” to the world empire of international bankers, etc.
And dont focus on the Hebrew “hired worker” servants who were called slaves but who chose to be slaves. Rather, please focus on the actual slavery in the bible, the enslavement of foreign people, especially women, and particularly virgins.
Please speak to this. I know the good point has been raised that just as god ALLOWS divorce because of the hard heartedness of the people, maybe he similarly allowed and allows slavery. But this does not seem like the case, and I'm not sure this even makes sense given gods power to create whatever law he wishes. Rather than regulate forced slavery, would it have been possible to ablolish it? Sure, it makes life easier if you steel people, kill their husbands, and force those people to do work for you. But couldn't life have just been harder for the Israelites rather than owning other humans as possessions? That is what I do not get. Maybe I am seeing this entirely wrong or from a 21st century perspective and maybe that thinking is twisted up beyond recognition, but if it is, could you explain how.
David
Davidthis is a question I have ask answers for ,for a long time ,just to give you some more wanderings ,if you see the houses in which people were living in those days ,with the animals but also their lights oil lamps ,that was killing them through the black smoke of the wick ,why did God not give them electricity
, why did God did not give them sewer lines ,and machinery and why ,why , why,because men as chosen to go his own way , and it is a evil and slow way ,
the fact that some people feel that slavery is wrong is because a selfish thinking THEY WOULD NOT LIKE TO BE TAKEN IN SLAVERY ,MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH MURDER,STEALING SHOULD BE PROHIBITED NOT THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE DOING IT ,BUT AS LONG THAT THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT DOING IT
THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING FROM SCRIPTURES
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2014,03:50) Quote (david @ Mar. 18 2014,03:06) T8 I very often try to put myself into other people's minds and see things as they would.
So how would you explain to an average person, maybe to someone who doesn't believe in the bible or God, and who agrees as most do that slavery is morally wrong, a crime against humanity…explain to them about slavery.
Don't confuse people being “slaves” to Christ, or “slaves” to the world empire of international bankers, etc.
And dont focus on the Hebrew “hired worker” servants who were called slaves but who chose to be slaves. Rather, please focus on the actual slavery in the bible, the enslavement of foreign people, especially women, and particularly virgins.
Please speak to this. I know the good point has been raised that just as god ALLOWS divorce because of the hard heartedness of the people, maybe he similarly allowed and allows slavery. But this does not seem like the case, and I'm not sure this even makes sense given gods power to create whatever law he wishes. Rather than regulate forced slavery, would it have been possible to ablolish it? Sure, it makes life easier if you steel people, kill their husbands, and force those people to do work for you. But couldn't life have just been harder for the Israelites rather than owning other humans as possessions? That is what I do not get. Maybe I am seeing this entirely wrong or from a 21st century perspective and maybe that thinking is twisted up beyond recognition, but if it is, could you explain how.
David
Davidthis is a question I have ask answers for ,for a long time ,just to give you some more wanderings ,if you see the houses in which people were living in those days ,with the animals but also their lights oil lamps ,that was killing them through the black smoke of the wick ,why did God not give them electricity
, why did God did not give them sewer lines ,and machinery and why ,why , why,because men as chosen to go his own way , and it is a evil and slow way ,
the fact that some people feel that slavery is wrong is because a selfish thinking THEY WOULD NOT LIKE TO BE TAKEN IN SLAVERY ,MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH MURDER,STEALING SHOULD BE PROHIBITED NOT THAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE DOING IT ,BUT AS LONG THAT THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT DOING IT
THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING FROM SCRIPTURES
Yes.There is that whole do unto others as you would want done to you.
It's hard to possess a person as property if I would not want that some to me.
I can't see anyone wanting actual physical literal slavery done to them.
So I have trouble seeing why someone would want to impose that on someone else.I feel that rather than dealing with this question, people will push it out of their minds, block it, or attack with ad hominems anyone who asks the question.
To be honest with ourselves we must ask the hard questions.
Quote (david @ Mar. 19 2014,05:55) I feel that rather than dealing with this question, people will push it out of their minds, block it, or attack with ad hominems anyone who asks the question. To be honest with ourselves we must ask the hard questions.
DavidWhen you get born in a country were there is slavery ,then you are brain washed to stay a slave and your culture of the masters will make sure it does,
Add to slavery ,the exploitation of orphan and widows and elderly ,I have notice it now first hand ,May the kingdom of our lord come quickly ,amen
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 19 2014,01:41) Colter. Have you read the book of Enoch?
He was of the old world, before the jews.
His testimony is in harmony with the bible.
God did create Adam and Eve.
There was a garden of Eden and Adam was put there.
There was a serpent that tempted Eve.I am sure that Enoch has nothing to do with the jews.
So you are falsly accusing all the prophets of God.
That makes you the accuser of things that are Holy.Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
***for the accuser of our brethren is cast down***,
***which accused them before our God day and night***.wakeup.
Yes, I have read Enoch, it was once a part of the inspired writings but when the RCC compiled the current bible book list, they un-inspired it. Jesus used to read it, that’s where he got the idea for “The Son of Man” title, although he knew it was not written by Enoch of old.You don't seem to understand, when the Hebrew redactors were rewriting the history of their ancestors and Gods supposed dealings with the Israelites, they incorporated many true things. Other true historic events were exaggerated and some discarded like the books “Doings of the Kings of Israel” and “Doings of the Kings of Judauh as well as “Jasher.”
Also, during the times when the OT prophets lived, they railed against the very same priest class that I speak of, the prophets were treated horribly by these same elite priestly government that you claim wrote the Word of God.
Again I ask, why don't you question church government, they are no different really than secular government?
I will post a thread on Jesus and the book of Enoch
Colter
Here is what I think.
People see what they want to see.
When it comes to psychics they focus on the 5 hits and forget about or actively avoid thinking about the 95 misses.
What this selective focus creates is a false impression of reality.If we only focus on things that are psychologically comforting or that make us feel good, we are deceiving ourselves.
Truth is a good thing. Knowing the whole truth is vital if we want to be aware of reality.
I would suggest that virtually everyone focuses on the ideas or things that make them happy while actively avoiding topics, thoughts or ideas that are troubling or that don't fit with the narrative they play in their mind.
Hence, people start with the conclusion, what they want to be true.
They then work backwards, and try to make pieces fit, even when they don't seem to want to fit.
Or they push those puzzle pieces out of their brain and blind themselves to those realities to cope with their unrealistic fantasies.Is someone who embraces truth a rebel? Can the person who points out truth be the bad guy? Or is the person who closes their eyes the bad guy?
Quote (david @ Mar. 18 2014,08:06) T8 I very often try to put myself into other people's minds and see things as they would.
So how would you explain to an average person, maybe to someone who doesn't believe in the bible or God, and who agrees as most do that slavery is morally wrong, a crime against humanity…explain to them about slavery.
Don't confuse people being “slaves” to Christ, or “slaves” to the world empire of international bankers, etc.
And dont focus on the Hebrew “hired worker” servants who were called slaves but who chose to be slaves. Rather, please focus on the actual slavery in the bible, the enslavement of foreign people, especially women, and particularly virgins.
Please speak to this. I know the good point has been raised that just as god ALLOWS divorce because of the hard heartedness of the people, maybe he similarly allowed and allows slavery. But this does not seem like the case, and I'm not sure this even makes sense given gods power to create whatever law he wishes. Rather than regulate forced slavery, would it have been possible to ablolish it? Sure, it makes life easier if you steel people, kill their husbands, and force those people to do work for you. But couldn't life have just been harder for the Israelites rather than owning other humans as possessions? That is what I do not get. Maybe I am seeing this entirely wrong or from a 21st century perspective and maybe that thinking is twisted up beyond recognition, but if it is, could you explain how.
David
Again:
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