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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2014,21:33) Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2014,10:24) If I beat you as some weird method to get you to move out of the way of a moving vehicle then you would be happy. (I would probably just yell: “hey, look out,” or push you.). What if rather than me beating you to save your life I was bearing you for these types of reasons:
PROVERBS 26:3
A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!PROVERBS 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.PROVERBS 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.PROVERBS 18:6
“The lips of one who is stupid enter into quarreling, and his very mouth calls even for strokes.”PROVERBS 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost …
Sure your way is good if it works.That said, if the rod of correction is definitely and only an actual stick, then Jesus is coming back with an actual double edged sword in his mouth.
My way is good if it works? You seem to wan to depersonalize it. I am asking about me beating YOU with a stick.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2014,21:47) David, slavery was a curse that not only came upon non_Jews, but perhaps more so to Jews. When the Jews were in slavery it was never a good thing, it was a judgement. My guess is it was no different for others. What you sow is what you reap. Sometimes it takes years to reap that which has been sown. Thus I don't think this kind of slavery is ever good. I also don't think being in debt is good either, but that doesn't mean these things won't happen. The debtor is a slave to the lender. Even to this day.
Being a slave to Christ is a choice. This is the good side of slavery. When we choose to serve because we believe in the one we serve.
You have changed your mind. Great. I expected that.Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 15 2014,09:26) hi what is bad slavery
what is good slavery
or is their no good or bad slavery
An example of good slavery is when we are slaves of Christ.
A bad example would be being a slave to some immoral and cruel person.Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2014,18:45) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2014,21:47) David, slavery was a curse that not only came upon non_Jews, but perhaps more so to Jews. When the Jews were in slavery it was never a good thing, it was a judgement. My guess is it was no different for others. What you sow is what you reap. Sometimes it takes years to reap that which has been sown. Thus I don't think this kind of slavery is ever good. I also don't think being in debt is good either, but that doesn't mean these things won't happen. The debtor is a slave to the lender. Even to this day.
Being a slave to Christ is a choice. This is the good side of slavery. When we choose to serve because we believe in the one we serve.
You have changed your mind. Great. I expected that.
Wrong David. I haven't changed my mind. Christ doesn't force us to be slaves to him. Satan probably tries though.If you forced someone to be a slave as I think you hypothetically asked earlier, that would be wrong.
I haven't changed my view.
david,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote This is when there were disputes or controversies and judgments had to be made by the older men.
What does this have to do with slavery.You gave this scripture David, to back up your point.
Quote BEATINGS. SCRIPTURES NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT SLAVERY BUT ONES THAT PEOPLE WHO OWNED SLAVES MAY HAVE CONSIDERED:
DEUTERONOMY 25:2
“And it must occur that if the wicked one deserves to be beaten, the judge must also have him laid prostrate and given strokes before him by number to correspond with his wicked deed.”
(Beatings were not just for slaves so they were somewhat common.)Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2014,20:56) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 15 2014,09:26) hi what is bad slavery
what is good slavery
or is their no good or bad slavery
An example of good slavery is when we are slaves of Christ.
A bad example would be being a slave to some immoral and cruel person.
You can't polish a turd, the term slave is inappropriate to describe a relationship with Christ or God.This is an obvious exercise in semantics in justification of the tacit endorsement of a human rights crime by the human creators of scripture.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2014,20:56) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 15 2014,09:26) hi what is bad slavery
what is good slavery
or is their no good or bad slavery
An example of good slavery is when we are slaves of Christ.
A bad example would be being a slave to some immoral and cruel person.
It was specified that you couldn't be cruel to your HEBREW slaves, which were actually hired workers, and not so much slaves as we think of them. It says this 3 times. It never says that of the actual real slaves, the non-Israelite slaves.EVITICUS 25:39-46,53
“‘If your brother [an Israelite] who lives nearby becomes poor and he has to sell himself to you, you must NOT force him to do SLAVE LABOR. He should be TREATED LIKE A HIRED WORKER, like a settler. He should serve with you until the Jubilee year. Then he will leave you, he and his children with him, and return to his family. He should return to the property of his forefathers. For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold. You MUST NOT TREAT HIM CRUELLY, and you must be in fear of your God. Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, from them you may buy a male or a female slave. Also from the sons of the foreign settlers who are residing with you, from them and from their families that are born to them in your land you may buy slaves, and they will become your POSSESSION. You may pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you to inherit as a permanent POSSESSION. You may use them [non-Israeilites] as workers, but you must NOT SUBJECT YOUR ISRAELITE BROTHERS TO CRUEL TREATMENT….He should continue to serve him year by year AS A HIRED WORKER; and you should see to it that he does NOT TREAT HIM CRUELLY.”What is bad slavery.
What is good slavery?Just like being a HEBREW slave was not the same experience at all in any way as being a non-Hebrew slave, being a slave of Christ isn't the same at all.
Jesus doesn't kill the men, steeling the virgins, forcing them. Nor does he force you to do do what you don't want to do through physical assault or beatings.The two are not the same. Let us not blur that fact.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2014,20:58) Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2014,18:45) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2014,21:47) David, slavery was a curse that not only came upon non_Jews, but perhaps more so to Jews. When the Jews were in slavery it was never a good thing, it was a judgement. My guess is it was no different for others. What you sow is what you reap. Sometimes it takes years to reap that which has been sown. Thus I don't think this kind of slavery is ever good. I also don't think being in debt is good either, but that doesn't mean these things won't happen. The debtor is a slave to the lender. Even to this day.
Being a slave to Christ is a choice. This is the good side of slavery. When we choose to serve because we believe in the one we serve.
You have changed your mind. Great. I expected that.
Wrong David. I haven't changed my mind. Christ doesn't force us to be slaves to him. Satan probably tries though.If you forced someone to be a slave as I think you hypothetically asked earlier, that would be wrong.
I haven't changed my view.
So, t8, to be clear, you believe that forced slavery (being taken against your will, and forced to be a slave) is morally wrong?Why would God allow and even command something such as this?
ENSLAVING FEMALE FOREIGN WOMEN.
DEUT 21:10-14
“If you go to war against your enemies and Jehovah your God defeats them for you and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman and you are attracted to her and you want to take her as your wife, you may bring her into your house. She should then shave her head, attend to her nails, and remove the clothing of her captivity, and dwell in your house. She will weep for her father and her mother a whole month, and afterward you may have relations with her; you will become her husband and she will become your wife. But if you are not pleased with her, you should then let her go wherever she wishes. But you may not sell her for money or treat her harshly, since you have humiliated her.”NUMBERS 31:7,9,11,12
“They killed every male… But the Israelites carried off captive the women and children of Mid′i·an. They also plundered all their domestic animals, all their livestock, and all their possessions….And they took all the spoil and all the plunder, both humans and animals. Then they brought the captives, the plunder, and the spoil to Moses…”
NUMBERS 31:15-18
“Moses said to them: “Have you preserved all the females alive?….Now you should kill every male among the children and kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man. But you may keep alive all the young girls who have not had sexual relations with a man.”WOMEN DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE, WHETHER THEY WANTED TO HAVE SEX
(Being property or a possession, the female slaves were required to have sex and become pregnant if the owner wanted this. They had no say.)
GEN 16:1-2
“Now A′bram’s wife Sar′ai had borne him no children, but she had an Egyptian servant whose name was Ha′gar. So Sar′ai said to A′bram: “Please now! Jehovah has prevented me from bearing children. Please, have relations with my servant. Perhaps I can have children by means of her.” So A′bram listened to what Sar′ai said.”
(This account doesn't include Abraham asking the servant if she cared to have sex with Abraham. She had no choice.)
GEN 30:3,4
“So she said: “Here is my slave girl Bil′hah. Have relations with her in order that she may bear children for me and that through her, I too may have children.” With that she gave him her servant Bil′hah as a wife, and Jacob had relations with her.”
GEN 30:9,10
“When Le′ah saw that she had stopped having children, she took her servant Zil′pah and gave her to Jacob as a wife. And Le′ah’s servant Zil′pah bore a son to Jacob.”In these accounts, there is no hint that the person went up to the slave and said: would you like to have sex so I can have children? Being a slave they had no choice. They were property.
Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 15 2014,22:23) david,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote This is when there were disputes or controversies and judgments had to be made by the older men.
What does this have to do with slavery.You gave this scripture David, to back up your point.
Quote BEATINGS. SCRIPTURES NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT SLAVERY BUT ONES THAT PEOPLE WHO OWNED SLAVES MAY HAVE CONSIDERED:
DEUTERONOMY 25:2
“And it must occur that if the wicked one deserves to be beaten, the judge must also have him laid prostrate and given strokes before him by number to correspond with his wicked deed.”
(Beatings were not just for slaves so they were somewhat common.)
Ok. Instead of me saying what does this have to do with slavery I should have said: this is of course not slavery.The scriptures I listed were related to beating people. So people that owned slaves may have looked at those scriptures and used them to reason on hitting their foreign slaves.
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 15 2014,22:28) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2014,20:56) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 15 2014,09:26) hi what is bad slavery
what is good slavery
or is their no good or bad slavery
An example of good slavery is when we are slaves of Christ.
A bad example would be being a slave to some immoral and cruel person.
You can't polish a turd, the term slave is inappropriate to describe a relationship with Christ or God.This is an obvious exercise in semantics in justification of the tacit endorsement of a human rights crime by the human creators of scripture.
AGREEDIt seems some on here like to confuse and blur the issue of slavery (forced ownership with the odd beating) with choosing to follow Christ.
Not the same.
You can say Christ is your master but it certainly isn't forced.
Christ didn't come to your house with others, armed, killing your men, and taking you, bringing you back to heaven to do forced labor. Did he?
Not the same.
voluntary submission ,is not slavery ,
Christ ;ask us to voluntary submit to his father and it will make us free of what
slavery of men ,ignorance,abuses,becoming a slave by voluntary submission to God and receive righteousness ,peace,happiness, and life everlasting is not slavery to me .
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 16 2014,09:32) voluntary submission ,is not slavery , Christ ;ask us to voluntary submit to his father and it will make us free of what
slavery of men ,ignorance,abuses,becoming a slave by voluntary submission to God and receive righteousness ,peace,happiness, and life everlasting is not slavery to me .
Exactly what I'm saying terr. Exactly what I'm saying.We can SAY that we are “slaves” of Christ, but the choice is ours.
This wasn't the case with most slaves through history, including the foreign non-Israelite slaves that the Israelites captured, and enslaved.
Please let's stop trying to compare the two.
Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2014,03:18) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 15 2014,22:28) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2014,20:56) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 15 2014,09:26) hi what is bad slavery
what is good slavery
or is their no good or bad slavery
An example of good slavery is when we are slaves of Christ.
A bad example would be being a slave to some immoral and cruel person.
You can't polish a turd, the term slave is inappropriate to describe a relationship with Christ or God.This is an obvious exercise in semantics in justification of the tacit endorsement of a human rights crime by the human creators of scripture.
AGREEDIt seems some on here like to confuse and blur the issue of slavery (forced ownership with the odd beating) with choosing to follow Christ.
Not the same.
You can say Christ is your master but it certainly isn't forced.
Christ didn't come to your house with others, armed, killing your men, and taking you, bringing you back to heaven to do forced labor. Did he?
Not the same.
It might well be, but some translations use that term and others say bond-servant. I haven't studied the words that are used in Greek however.1 Corinthians 7:22 (NIV)
For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave.Romans 1:1-2 (HCS)
1 Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle and singled out for God's good news- 2 which He promised long ago through His prophets in the Holy ScripturesMust be turd translations or what?
Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2014,18:43) My way is good if it works? You seem to wan to depersonalize it. I am asking about me beating YOU with a stick.
If it saves my life, then I choose the stick. If it is of no benefit, then I choose not the stick.Quote (david @ Mar. 16 2014,03:06) So, t8, to be clear, you believe that forced slavery (being taken against your will, and forced to be a slave) is morally wrong? Why would God allow and even command something such as this?
I have been waiting for you to ask this. I walked into your trap intentionally.God says that we shall not kill, yet commands certain people in history to do just that. He commanded one person to sacrifice his own son, (although told him not to at the last minute).
God obviously would not be happy with you if you took someone at random off the street and turned them into a slave, yet God hands people over to slavery at certain times.
It is obviously wrong to drown someone, yet God drowned a who aeon of people minus 8.
It is obvious that burning someone at the stake is wrong, yet God throws the wicked into the Lake of Fire.
Now I will get right to answering the next obvious questions. Let's cut to the chase. Let's expose the hypocrisy of God or at least the inaccuracies of scriptures for painting a good God in such a so-called bad light.
After all, the God in scripture is basically saying, 'do as I say, don't do as I do'. 'I command you not to do this or that, unless I make a specific request to do so' and if you are obedient, then I take responsibility and will not punish you for it.
Are there anymore questions or insinuations against the Most High. I am sure there are even better ones than this. Maybe we just need to ask Job's friends, or the one-third of the angels that rebelled. Even Satan would have probably much better accusations against the Most High after all if anyone has thought about exposing God it is him.
David, welcome to the rebellion. Will you get caught up and put God on trial as these have. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. Perhaps you will be too scared to question this all the way to its logical end and rebel once you realise the injustice of it all. Or perhaps your religion does not allow such questions to be asked and hence by ignorance be spared any unforgivable sin. Yet, the world is only being caught up in that which has already happened. There is nothing new under the sun.
But here is where I stand. God can do what he wants and he does. No one can compete with him because he is before them and after them. If he is evil, we are all screwed. If he is good, then that is perhaps the single greatest blessing and fortune for all living things.
But I believe and trust that he is indeed good. Only he has the foresight to see all ages. Only he has the foresight to allow people to be disciplined in order to became better people. Did God set up slavery or did man or demon do that? And did God only hand people over to the very things that they have crafted with their own hands? God says, “what you sow is what you reap, and IMO, I think God just uses that which is here in the world. If men make guns, then men will die by guns. If they take slaves, then they will be slaves. If they pollute the world, then they will suffer that pollution.
I believe that had man lived God's way from the beginning, then we would be in Paradise today. But we didn't and rather than God just walking away from us to destroy ourselves, he will often give us a dose of our own medicine so that we can learn the errors of our ways.
If we are in slavery, perhaps our mentality was to enslave people. And having such a mentality, and then being a slave, surely helps us to learn even if it is learning the hard way.
As you may choose to doubt God, or to judge him, I instinctively know that he is good and rewards the righteous and humble. But opposes the proud, the unbelievers, and the selfish.
Welcome to the world david. Where every man's faith is tested. When the fire comes, will you burn up, or will you come out refined? Whose side will you ultimately find yourself on?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2014,11:25) Quote (david @ Mar. 15 2014,18:43) My way is good if it works? You seem to wan to depersonalize it. I am asking about me beating YOU with a stick.
If it saves my life, then I choose the stick. If it is of no benefit, then I choose not the stick.
T8And do you think the beating of slaves in ancient Israel was saving the slaves life?
Also, imagine for a second you are transported back in time into the land of Israel. You are instantly noticed to be a foreigner. Some guy with power and a stick makes you his slave. He isn't saving your life. Your life being saved in no way depends upon this. In fact, your life may be threatened by it.
I really think from the slaves perspective, it would be viewed as we view it today. Not good.
Yes please, kick me in the chest if it saves my life. And if it saves my soul, then all the more.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news….ed.htmlI still believe that we have been born to become sons of God by faith and through the grace of God ,it really does not matter if we are crippled,blind,good looking,strong or weak ,educated or not educated ,does not matter were we are born for God does not look at all those things except for true judgment ;God looks at our heart and that is not related to any thing that is of this world or our physical condition ;the deeds according to the lord that is important
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