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Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 11 2014,00:11) Quote (david @ Mar. 10 2014,11:31) “The slaves rule is to obey their masters.
For they depend on their masters for a living.”–WAKEUPWell what if I depend on my employer for a living? Must I stand there and obediently be hit with a stick, because I depend on my employer for a living?
Obeying an employers rules is one thing.
Owning the person, viewing them as a possession and property, and being able to treat them as such is another.
David.I know it is hard to understand all that,but we also must know
That all things are in God's hands.
He knows what is going on in this world.
Slaves are allowed in this world,because it is the spirit of men
and the system of men running this world.The twelve tribes were slaves in Egypt for 430 years.
This is how the world opperates;by the law of the jungle.
Dog eat dog.If the bosses can get away by paying his workers
on dollar a day;they will do it.Workers are owned by the company or the next company,
they work for.
Even today:we are told how to dress what to eat,what not to eat. How to walk,what is cool and what is not cool.
How to wear the hair.Hollywood is responible to do this,and they have done a good job.wakeup.
THE enemy conquered are made slaves;this is commomsense.
Because they will not gave them a chance to come up again.
Slavery is of this world,and is part of this world.
This will be no more in the new world.wakeup.
Yes. Slavery has pretty much always existed in almost all cultures up until very recently. (Or still even today in a different less direct or brutal form if you like)Ok, so god knows what's going on in the world and back then knew slavery was a thing people did.
He gave laws about how slaves were to be treated. These laws basically were:
Don't beat them so bad that they die or that their eyes or teeth are ruined. Otherwise, you will be punished.I don't want to say: it's a mystery, and things will eventually be sorted.
I simply want to understand today what happened in the past.
Today, that type of slavery is universally understood to be a moral outrage or abomination and was declared to be a crime against humanity by all nations a few years ago.
How could something that seems to be so clearly wrong to almost all humans today be considered ok and not just tolerated but sanctioned by God back then?
It also really does seem like slavery should still exist today based on the Greek scriptures.
I can explain it in very simple, common sense terms:
God doesn’t change, mans understanding of God is what changes. This truth is reflected in the evolution of the scripture.
Religion has no critically corrective process for that which was an accepted practice or belief in one age (to the extent that man understood God in that age) is preserved in the so called “scripture” because people have been afraid to eliminate that which was considered sacred in the past.
Therefore, a mountain of dubious apologetics is created to rationalize what is so very obviously outrageous to thinking men and women in the current age, who are inclined to believe the better concepts of scripture while they are truly perplexed by the primitive concepts, which they have been told by the controlling authorities of religion, was actually written by God. Bible worshipers then say that one is stupid, blind, doesn’t read the Bible properly or even from Satan, when you point out how truly awful some of these things are in the Bible books!
But at least it does indicate the progress of a moral conscience that men wrote moral laws about how to treat slaves. What should be obvious is that Moses was actually a great reformer of previous practices, customs and scriptures of those who were lead out of Egypt.
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2014,06:15) I can explain it in very simple, common sense terms: God doesn’t change, mans understanding of God is what changes. This truth is reflected in the evolution of the scripture.
Religion has no critically corrective process for that which was an accepted practice or belief in one age (to the extent that man understood God in that age) is preserved in the so called “scripture” because people have been afraid to eliminate that which was considered sacred in the past.
Therefore, a mountain of dubious apologetics is created to rationalize what is so very obviously outrageous to thinking men and women in the current age, who are inclined to believe the better concepts of scripture while they are truly perplexed by the primitive concepts, which they have been told by the controlling authorities of religion, was actually written by God. Bible worshipers then say that one is stupid, blind, doesn’t read the Bible properly or even from Satan, when you point out how truly awful some of these things are in the Bible books!
But at least it does indicate the progress of a moral conscience that men wrote moral laws about how to treat slaves. What should be obvious is that Moses was actually a great reformer of previous practices, customs and scriptures of those who were lead out of Egypt.
If your giant words are true then men either:
Misunderstood God in the past or
Misunderstand him now.If the ones who wrote the bible misunderstood him, then why would he allow a book to be written that would spread misunderstanding throughout the world for thousands of years?
It would seem we misunderstand him now if your words were at all accurate.
God allowed Satan to mislead the whole world, that is the potential that comes with free will. God “allows” the choice to seek his will or not. God allowed the whole of the OT to be redacted during the Babylonian captivity, it was never his book to begin with. God allows the Koran, God allows priest to molest children, terrorist to kill, cancer to grow, disease to spread, the holicost, many genocides.
Where did you egg the impression that God inter fears with mans will?
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2014,13:33) God allowed Satan to mislead the whole world, that is the potential that comes with free will. God “allows” the choice to seek his will or not. God allowed the whole of the OT to be redacted during the Babylonian captivity, it was never his book to begin with. God allows the Koran, God allows priest to molest children, terrorist to kill, cancer to grow, disease to spread, the holicost, many genocides. Where did you egg the impression that God inter fears with mans will?
Lol! “Get” not egg
Colter.
According to your understanding,the ub has suddenly evolved
in an instant in 1944 or something.As far as I know the world is in slavery to the god of this world.And so are you.
Ony in Jesus the Word of God will you be set free.
The Word of God is the holy bible.
Not the ub.wakeup.
Colter, I'm not sure I understand your eggstion. What are you asking.
(I am really wanting not to take this question somewhere complicated. I really am only concerned with the question of the board: “is slavery (morally) wrong”?
I'm not sure if it's been raised before but if as many would argue, morality comes from god, and if god allows slavery, then by those things, slavery is not wrong.
Of course there is the divorce thing where god don't want divorce but because of the hard heartlessness of the people, he allowed it. I'm not sure that makes sense in itself.
Are things “good or right or moral” because god says they are or does god just tell us what is already is good and moral and right? There are issues with both answers. I've asked this before and it seems very one on here answered the first. Things are right or moral because god says they are.
So if god says murder is now good then murder is now good.
If he says steeling is now good then steeling is now good.
If god says slavery is ok as long as you don't kill or knock their teeth out, then slavery is ok, as long as you don't kill them or knock their teeth out while beating them.
So is that the answer?
Slavery isn't wrong because god didn't just allow it but sanctioned it and provided rules?
Of course god allows many things to take place that are bad, but he doesn't sanction them.
If god said: “stabbings are ok, as long as it's not in the face,” then stabbings would be ok, as long as you followed the rules.
But what if stabbings becomes illegal in all countries? Are stabbings that aren't in the face still ok, by gods standards then? I'm not concerned with men's standards, the laws of the land, so much as I am with gods standards of right and wrong. I have mostly just been typing whatever has been popping into my head. This may not make sense. Most will ignore it as it's psychologically uncomfortable to consider for too long.So, a red herring is when you drag a smelly fish across the path of this board to distract us from the actual topic at hand. It very often works.
2 KINGS 4:1,7
“Now one of the wives of the sons of the prophets cried out to E·li′sha, saying: “Your servant my husband is dead, and you well know that your servant had always feared Jehovah. Now a creditor has come to TAKE BOTH OF MY CHILDREN AS SLAVES….. So she came in and told the man of the true God, and he said: “Go, sell the oil and pay off your debts, and you and your sons can live from what is left.”Husband dies.
Family is in debt
We are taking your children as slaves.of course these were Hebrew slaves, hired workers really. If they were male children they could be freed if the debt was paid off or at the jubilee. If female, they pretty much would become someone's concubine I think.
Of course, in this situation, none of this was allowed to happen because of a miracle.
Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2014,16:52) Colter, I'm not sure I understand your eggstion. What are you asking. (I am really wanting not to take this question somewhere complicated. I really am only concerned with the question of the board: “is slavery (morally) wrong”?
I'm not sure if it's been raised before but if as many would argue, morality comes from god, and if god allows slavery, then by those things, slavery is not wrong.
Of course there is the divorce thing where god don't want divorce but because of the hard heartlessness of the people, he allowed it. I'm not sure that makes sense in itself.
Are things “good or right or moral” because god says they are or does god just tell us what is already is good and moral and right? There are issues with both answers. I've asked this before and it seems very one on here answered the first. Things are right or moral because god says they are.
So if god says murder is now good then murder is now good.
If he says steeling is now good then steeling is now good.
If god says slavery is ok as long as you don't kill or knock their teeth out, then slavery is ok, as long as you don't kill them or knock their teeth out while beating them.
So is that the answer?
Slavery isn't wrong because god didn't just allow it but sanctioned it and provided rules?
Of course god allows many things to take place that are bad, but he doesn't sanction them.
If god said: “stabbings are ok, as long as it's not in the face,” then stabbings would be ok, as long as you followed the rules.
But what if stabbings becomes illegal in all countries? Are stabbings that aren't in the face still ok, by gods standards then? I'm not concerned with men's standards, the laws of the land, so much as I am with gods standards of right and wrong. I have mostly just been typing whatever has been popping into my head. This may not make sense. Most will ignore it as it's psychologically uncomfortable to consider for too long.
God never said that slavery was right, it has always been immoral.You are just trying to justify the inconsistency of the Bible idol.
Colter
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 11 2014,16:40) Colter. According to your understanding,the ub has suddenly evolved
in an instant in 1944 or something.As far as I know the world is in slavery to the god of this world.And so are you.
Ony in Jesus the Word of God will you be set free.
The Word of God is the holy bible.
Not the ub.wakeup.
Jesus sent a new revelation of truth, it's the 5th so far to this world. It's a gift to us all, but as usual man treats Gods gifts of revelation badly out of ignorance and fear mainly.Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2014,22:08) Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2014,16:52) Colter, I'm not sure I understand your eggstion. What are you asking. (I am really wanting not to take this question somewhere complicated. I really am only concerned with the question of the board: “is slavery (morally) wrong”?
I'm not sure if it's been raised before but if as many would argue, morality comes from god, and if god allows slavery, then by those things, slavery is not wrong.
Of course there is the divorce thing where god don't want divorce but because of the hard heartlessness of the people, he allowed it. I'm not sure that makes sense in itself.
Are things “good or right or moral” because god says they are or does god just tell us what is already is good and moral and right? There are issues with both answers. I've asked this before and it seems very one on here answered the first. Things are right or moral because god says they are.
So if god says murder is now good then murder is now good.
If he says steeling is now good then steeling is now good.
If god says slavery is ok as long as you don't kill or knock their teeth out, then slavery is ok, as long as you don't kill them or knock their teeth out while beating them.
So is that the answer?
Slavery isn't wrong because god didn't just allow it but sanctioned it and provided rules?
Of course god allows many things to take place that are bad, but he doesn't sanction them.
If god said: “stabbings are ok, as long as it's not in the face,” then stabbings would be ok, as long as you followed the rules.
But what if stabbings becomes illegal in all countries? Are stabbings that aren't in the face still ok, by gods standards then? I'm not concerned with men's standards, the laws of the land, so much as I am with gods standards of right and wrong. I have mostly just been typing whatever has been popping into my head. This may not make sense. Most will ignore it as it's psychologically uncomfortable to consider for too long.
God never said that slavery was right, it has always been immoral.You are just trying to justify the inconsistency of the Bible idol.
Colter
OoooooThat's not what I'm doing. Unless you think I'm suing some sort of reverse reverse psychology.
So, the belief is that slavery was ALSO IMMORAL BACK IN ANCIEMT ISRAELITE TIME?
But that god just sanctioned it?But doesn't that seem weird to you? Putting aside the Hebrew “hired worker” non-slave type servants, and focusing only on the actual beaten type of forced slave labor, yes, seems to be universally regarded as immoral and an outrage.
So, why wouldn't god just say: 'this is wrong. Don't do it'? Rather than making laws for it, which seem to condone it?
If I think murder is wrong, I don't make laws that say: 'you may only murder this way or that way and don't use knives use guns,' but I say: “don't murder because it's a bad bad thing.”
Did god not have the power to administer whatever rules he saw fit? (Again, not talking about the hired worker servant slaves but about the actual slave slaves.)
Couldn't he have said: maybe don't steel women and children from other nations and hit them with sticks and have sex with (and marry) the virgins?
Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2014,22:11) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 11 2014,16:40) Colter. According to your understanding,the ub has suddenly evolved
in an instant in 1944 or something.As far as I know the world is in slavery to the god of this world.And so are you.
Ony in Jesus the Word of God will you be set free.
The Word of God is the holy bible.
Not the ub.wakeup.
Jesus sent a new revelation of truth, it's the 5th so far to this world. It's a gift to us all, but as usual man treats Gods gifts of revelation badly out of ignorance and fear mainly.
Would anyone who follows a somewhat normal more main stream belief system like to discuss this?David,
I know you put much weight in words of a book, but what does your spirit say?
I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that the origin of slavery was by a person's own in some form or another.
The person taking on the slave most likely would have had a kind heart and took on a slave due to it was the right thing to do, to take care of another human.Like with all things the years and mankind had a hand in changing it. Why? Pick your posion.
just my thoughts.
I believe we have come to the full mastering of slavery ,we are so good at it ,that we make believe that we are kind and helpful to those who are slaves ,
Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2014,09:34) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2014,22:08) Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2014,16:52) Colter, I'm not sure I understand your eggstion. What are you asking. (I am really wanting not to take this question somewhere complicated. I really am only concerned with the question of the board: “is slavery (morally) wrong”?
I'm not sure if it's been raised before but if as many would argue, morality comes from god, and if god allows slavery, then by those things, slavery is not wrong.
Of course there is the divorce thing where god don't want divorce but because of the hard heartlessness of the people, he allowed it. I'm not sure that makes sense in itself.
Are things “good or right or moral” because god says they are or does god just tell us what is already is good and moral and right? There are issues with both answers. I've asked this before and it seems very one on here answered the first. Things are right or moral because god says they are.
So if god says murder is now good then murder is now good.
If he says steeling is now good then steeling is now good.
If god says slavery is ok as long as you don't kill or knock their teeth out, then slavery is ok, as long as you don't kill them or knock their teeth out while beating them.
So is that the answer?
Slavery isn't wrong because god didn't just allow it but sanctioned it and provided rules?
Of course god allows many things to take place that are bad, but he doesn't sanction them.
If god said: “stabbings are ok, as long as it's not in the face,” then stabbings would be ok, as long as you followed the rules.
But what if stabbings becomes illegal in all countries? Are stabbings that aren't in the face still ok, by gods standards then? I'm not concerned with men's standards, the laws of the land, so much as I am with gods standards of right and wrong. I have mostly just been typing whatever has been popping into my head. This may not make sense. Most will ignore it as it's psychologically uncomfortable to consider for too long.
God never said that slavery was right, it has always been immoral.You are just trying to justify the inconsistency of the Bible idol.
Colter
OoooooThat's not what I'm doing. Unless you think I'm suing some sort of reverse reverse psychology.
So, the belief is that slavery was ALSO IMMORAL BACK IN ANCIEMT ISRAELITE TIME?
But that god just sanctioned it?But doesn't that seem weird to you? Putting aside the Hebrew “hired worker” non-slave type servants, and focusing only on the actual beaten type of forced slave labor, yes, seems to be universally regarded as immoral and an outrage.
So, why wouldn't god just say: 'this is wrong. Don't do it'? Rather than making laws for it, which seem to condone it?
If I think murder is wrong, I don't make laws that say: 'you may only murder this way or that way and don't use knives use guns,' but I say: “don't murder because it's a bad bad thing.”
Did god not have the power to administer whatever rules he saw fit? (Again, not talking about the hired worker servant slaves but about the actual slave slaves.)
Couldn't he have said: maybe don't steel women and children from other nations and hit them with sticks and have sex with (and marry) the virgins?
God didn't sanction slavery, the Leviticus laws were man made.Quote (Colter @ Mar. 12 2014,12:18) Quote (david @ Mar. 12 2014,09:34) Quote (Colter @ Mar. 11 2014,22:08) Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2014,16:52) Colter, I'm not sure I understand your eggstion. What are you asking. (I am really wanting not to take this question somewhere complicated. I really am only concerned with the question of the board: “is slavery (morally) wrong”?
I'm not sure if it's been raised before but if as many would argue, morality comes from god, and if god allows slavery, then by those things, slavery is not wrong.
Of course there is the divorce thing where god don't want divorce but because of the hard heartlessness of the people, he allowed it. I'm not sure that makes sense in itself.
Are things “good or right or moral” because god says they are or does god just tell us what is already is good and moral and right? There are issues with both answers. I've asked this before and it seems very one on here answered the first. Things are right or moral because god says they are.
So if god says murder is now good then murder is now good.
If he says steeling is now good then steeling is now good.
If god says slavery is ok as long as you don't kill or knock their teeth out, then slavery is ok, as long as you don't kill them or knock their teeth out while beating them.
So is that the answer?
Slavery isn't wrong because god didn't just allow it but sanctioned it and provided rules?
Of course god allows many things to take place that are bad, but he doesn't sanction them.
If god said: “stabbings are ok, as long as it's not in the face,” then stabbings would be ok, as long as you followed the rules.
But what if stabbings becomes illegal in all countries? Are stabbings that aren't in the face still ok, by gods standards then? I'm not concerned with men's standards, the laws of the land, so much as I am with gods standards of right and wrong. I have mostly just been typing whatever has been popping into my head. This may not make sense. Most will ignore it as it's psychologically uncomfortable to consider for too long.
God never said that slavery was right, it has always been immoral.You are just trying to justify the inconsistency of the Bible idol.
Colter
OoooooThat's not what I'm doing. Unless you think I'm suing some sort of reverse reverse psychology.
So, the belief is that slavery was ALSO IMMORAL BACK IN ANCIEMT ISRAELITE TIME?
But that god just sanctioned it?But doesn't that seem weird to you? Putting aside the Hebrew “hired worker” non-slave type servants, and focusing only on the actual beaten type of forced slave labor, yes, seems to be universally regarded as immoral and an outrage.
So, why wouldn't god just say: 'this is wrong. Don't do it'? Rather than making laws for it, which seem to condone it?
If I think murder is wrong, I don't make laws that say: 'you may only murder this way or that way and don't use knives use guns,' but I say: “don't murder because it's a bad bad thing.”
Did god not have the power to administer whatever rules he saw fit? (Again, not talking about the hired worker servant slaves but about the actual slave slaves.)
Couldn't he have said: maybe don't steel women and children from other nations and hit them with sticks and have sex with (and marry) the virgins?
God didn't sanction slavery, the Leviticus laws were man made.
Ok. The thread you ant is called: is the bible from god.This thread presupposes that gods exists, and inspired the bible.
If I'm having a conversation on the trinity and stu says the trinity is wrong because god doesn't exist, you surely see how that is a much wider or different discussion. A person discussing the trinity is doing so within the confines of certain other beliefs, such as the idea that the bible is from god. If it isn't from god then the conversation is pointless anyway. So, I'm not terribly interested what I consider to be your mostly unrelated ideas in this thread. Maybe I haven't looked closely enough at what the topic of this thread is. Perhaps I should start another and outline that we are presupposing a couple of things.
Hi,
Slaves get free food and lodging and do not have to pay rates or gas bills or taxes.Many folk around the world have less.
Quote (princess @ Mar. 12 2014,11:24) David, I know you put much weight in words of a book, but what does your spirit say?
I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that the origin of slavery was by a person's own in some form or another.
The person taking on the slave most likely would have had a kind heart and took on a slave due to it was the right thing to do, to take care of another human.Like with all things the years and mankind had a hand in changing it. Why? Pick your posion.
just my thoughts.
I'm not sure princess that you have read the scriptures I posted.What you describe has nothing to do with biblical slavery of foreigners.
I really want to make this point clear and make a very clear division between:
MALE HEBREW SLAVES (“hired workers, servants, employees sort of)
V E R Y DIFFERENT FROM:
FOREIGN SLAVES (I'm going to beat you with a sick “slaves.”)
let's not keep talking about the male Hebrew debt slaves, which really shouldn't almost be called slaves. Those slaves made sense. I get that idea. It was very helpful. I have no money. I will be your servant. I get it.
Totally different from: we captured you and killed your husbands and the males. We own you. Now do as I say or I'm going to beat you. Also, you are now my wife.
We can all see a difference there right?
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