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Quote (Gene @ Jan. 18 2010,11:14) Terraricca……….The question here is (NOT) that we have WILLS< But are they So-called, "FREE WILLS" that is the question , but now you have tried to made it a question of do we have WILLS, no one is denying that we have Wills, what we are talking about is it a "FREE WILL" that is a Will totally (FREE) of (ANY) INFLUENCING OF ANY KIND< NO SUCH A WILL EXISTS, In fact it is you who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. The WORD (FREE) WILL does not exist in scripture, Only as a free will offering, and that is talking about a people having FREE WILLS but an offering that is free of command and coming from the person themself. And you down playing it only shows how much this false teaching has infected the minds of people. You may think you are your own Master of salvation by your so-called "FREE WILL" choices, but scriptures show differentially. WE are saved BY GRACE AND THAT (NOT) OF OURSELVES, NOT OF (WORKS) LEAST ANY BOAST. This is an important subject because it show how a person is focused on their salvation , is it of the self or of GOD ALONE.
And yet we are told to “work out” our own salvation with fear and trembling! Phil 2:12WJ
gene
you do not read what i have said all along” free” means no interference in your choice” will “the power to make your own decisions even the wrong ones.
so free ..will means going to God by choice not forced and receive the grace of live ,is this against God s will?
??????????Hi
Adam and Eve is proof of free will. They didn't have any influence except maybe from God, when the tempter came to them and they still disobeyed!
They “freely” chose to sin.
No one would deny that influence may be part of choice, for Eve was obviously influenced by satan.
The question is when the choice to do what is right or wrong is before you, though you may want to do wrong, do you choose to obey him and do what is right?
To believe that we don't have the freedom to choose to obey or follow what is right would be saying that we are not responsible for our own actions and are just slaves to our invironment, and that God is telling us to do something that we cannot possibly do.
Even walking in the Spirit or the flesh is an act of my will and the freedom I have to do it or not to! IMO.
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2010,03:46) gene
you do not read what i have said all along” free” means no interference in your choice” will “the power to make your own decisions even the wrong ones.
so free ..will means going to God by choice not forced and receive the grace of live ,is this against God s will???????????
t,There is no such thing as free-will. You say that “free” means no interference. Yet teen agers put peer pressure on each other and they do things they would not normally do because of this peer “interference.” We obey speed laws not because we are free but because we don't want to suffer consequences like a citation or an increase in our insurance rate.
I hate wearing a seat belt and I never wore it until I got sick and tired of getting caught and having to pay a fine. So I choose to wear it all the time now not because I am free but because of the “interference” of the law.
Gene is right on this one. There is no such thing as free will.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 18 2010,11:16) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 17 2010,21:02) Quote (chosenone @ Jan. 17 2010,11:40) kerwin.
When discussing “free will” you state …”I do not know what definition Choosenone uses”. Are there different definitions of free will? No where in scripture is “free will” mentioned, therefore I do not have a definition of it, because there is no context to define it in.
But Gods will is mentioned many times, the one that in context comes to mind is Eph.1:11 …”according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”,
I think this quite plainly says that His will (God), and His only, “Who is operating all”, is the only one Who has “free will”. If “He” is operating “ALL”, what is left for “us” to operate?I don't know what 'your' definition of “free will” is, but can anyone take it seriously if it has no scripture backing it?
Blessings.
So according to you Jesus did not go bathroom because scripture does not state he does. I point this out as you make an absurd argument that is based on similar reasoning.The question is not if the words “free will” are in scripture but if the concept is. I assure you the concept of individual choice is in scripture. If you do not see it then you are truly blind. On the other hand hard determinism is not there.
How can you know something is not in scripture if you do not know what it is?
Hi kerwin & JustAskin.
Your anology of Jesus and the 'bathroom' is absurd, I won't reply to that.
As an example, I'll use the trinity theory. Many scriptures say “God is one”, yet no scripture states that God is a 'trinity'. Yet many do accept this scripture.
As in scripture of Gods will, we see that He is “operating ALL in accord of the counsel of His will”. (Eph.1:11). Yet nowhere in scripture does it say mankind has “free will”. So you trust your own reasoning, and ignore scripture.Blessings.
You do realize you are trusting your own reasoning. I used Jesus and the bathroom example to point out the flaw in your reasoning. I assure you scripture was not written in the English language so you will find no English words in the original documents we now read a translated copy of. That does not mean the English words we read are not the correct way of expressing the ideas within scripture. In the English language different words or, series of words, can express the same ideas.You are correct that the word “trinity” is not in scripture but Trinitarians argue the idea is there. I disagree with them as it is a contradictory idea and God does not contradict.
You are incorrect as the words “free will” is in scripture. God even set in place the regulations for a “free will” offering in the Law of Mosses. Leviticus 22:23. The word freewill is used both in the King James and New International Versions. The Transliterated Hebrew word is “N@dabah”.
That is irrelevant since the same words can also be used in English for expressing different ideas.
Now if you believe in the same God I do then you also believe that God desires his people to be righteous as he is is righteous. In addition you believe God has the power to overcome the sins of his people so that they sin no more. So right there you know both the motive and ability for us to be filled with true righteousness exist. All that remains is the way and Jesus teaches us that he is the way.
The difference between the message Jesus taught and the message Paul taught later is that Jesus taught what would be and Paul taught what is. The dividing line was when the Spirit came at Pentecost so long ago.
As for when the message was extended to the Gentiles. Even Jesus probably preached to Gentiles that converted to Judaism as they were most likely considered Jews. Jesus instruct the Eleven to preach to all nations before he ascended. They did not do so until Peter took part in the conversion of the household of Cornelius. The implications that I obtained from that was that his household was considered different than those Gentile converts to Judaism that became students of Jesus on Pentecost.
Paul's title was apostle to the Gentiles as he took the message to both Gentiles and Jews. Peter was called an apostle to the Jews even though he also took the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.
Note: I am assuming you know what scriptures I am referring to. If that is not the case then please let me know and I will help you find them.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:53) I hate wearing a seat belt and I never wore it until I got sick and tired of getting caught and having to pay a fine. So I choose to wear it all the time now not because I am free but because of the “interference” of the law.
But you are Free to obey the law or not to. Many “Freely choose” to disobey the Law and that is why our prisons are full. They are not there because they had no choice.They could not argue in court, but I couldn't help it because you put the law there and interfered with my life.
Jesus said “Men will give account for every Idle word that proceeds out of his mouth”. Matt 12:36
What justice would it be to condemn him for something he is not responsible for?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Hi Keith,It says that he that is thirsty may come and drink. The thirst for God cannot come from a man's heart unless God puts it there.
Jack
hi
just think it is men and is laws who takes away freedom to dominate this is why Christ say to his apostles not so with you ……
seat belts are from men ,income tax from men ,evil is men doing not God.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Hi Keith,It says that he that is thirsty may come and drink. The thirst for God cannot come from a man's heart unless God puts it there.
Jack
JackThat is correct because Jesus said he will draw all men unto him, but it is still the “Free choice” of those whom he draws to come!
Or else man cannot be responsible for his own actions!
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2010,04:12) hi
just think it is men and is laws who takes away freedom to dominate this is why Christ say to his apostles not so with you ……
seat belts are from men ,income tax from men ,evil is men doing not God.
You missed the point. I do not freely put on my seat belt because the law “interferes.” I put it on because I am mandated and I fear being fined.You said that “free” means “without interference.” Therefore, I do not freely put on my seat belt.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Hi Keith,It says that he that is thirsty may come and drink. The thirst for God cannot come from a man's heart unless God puts it there.
Jack
JackThat is correct because Jesus said he will draw all men unto him, but it is still the “Free choice” of those whom he draws to come!
Or else man cannot be responsible for his own actions!
WJ
Keith,It is not the “free choice” of those He draws. It is the necessary consequence. To Christ be ALL the glory!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Hi Keith,It says that he that is thirsty may come and drink. The thirst for God cannot come from a man's heart unless God puts it there.
Jack
JackThat is correct because Jesus said he will draw all men unto him, but it is still the “Free choice” of those whom he draws to come!
Or else man cannot be responsible for his own actions!
WJ
Keith,It is not the “free choice” of those He draws. It is the necessary consequence. To Christ be ALL the glory!
thinker
JackYes to Christ be all the Glory! But there is no point of commandments, repentance, and Judgment if man is not responsible for his own actions but is merely a product of his invironment.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And “WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY“.
Jack, you said that Adam and Eve had free will but man lost it in the fall. Would it not be true that we have been set free from the Fall and are now New Creations in Christ with the freedom to choose?
Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Hi Keith,It says that he that is thirsty may come and drink. The thirst for God cannot come from a man's heart unless God puts it there.
Jack
JackThat is correct because Jesus said he will draw all men unto him, but it is still the “Free choice” of those whom he draws to come!
Or else man cannot be responsible for his own actions!
WJ
Keith,It is not the “free choice” of those He draws. It is the necessary consequence. To Christ be ALL the glory!
thinker
JackYes to Christ be all the Glory! But there is no point of commandments, repentance, and Judgment if man is not responsible for his own actions but is merely a product of his invironment.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And “WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY“.
Jack, you said that Adam and Eve had free will but man lost it in the fall. Would it not be true that we have been set free from the Fall and are now New Creations in Christ with the freedom to choose?
Keith
Keith,Only a man who thirsts will come. And only God can put that thirst within a man. Those to whom God does not give that thirst are still responsible to repent. It is not God's fault that they cannot and do not thirst.
Christians have the disposition to do the will of God. But even then it is by the Spirit's leading.
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:45) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:16) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,12:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 19 2010,04:02) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 18 2010,11:56) WorshippingJesus said: Quote Adam and Eve is proof of free will. Adam and Eve were free before the fall but not afterwards. All men after the fall are slaves of sin. Slaves are not free.
thinker
JackI agree, yet Jesus said “Whosoever will”, and the Spirit and the Bride say come.
So there is something that must happen on the part of sinsick man or the point of rejecting Jesus or repentance is null and void!
Scriptures say the “Goodness of God” leads men to repentance but it is the man that follows and does the repenting.
His Spirit will not always strive with men!
WJ
Hi Keith,It says that he that is thirsty may come and drink. The thirst for God cannot come from a man's heart unless God puts it there.
Jack
JackThat is correct because Jesus said he will draw all men unto him, but it is still the “Free choice” of those whom he draws to come!
Or else man cannot be responsible for his own actions!
WJ
Keith,It is not the “free choice” of those He draws. It is the necessary consequence. To Christ be ALL the glory!
thinker
JackYes to Christ be all the Glory! But there is no point of commandments, repentance, and Judgment if man is not responsible for his own actions but is merely a product of his invironment.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And “WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY“.
Jack, you said that Adam and Eve had free will but man lost it in the fall. Would it not be true that we have been set free from the Fall and are now New Creations in Christ with the freedom to choose?
Keith
Keith,Only a man who thirsts will come. And only God can put that thirst within a man. Those to whom God does not give that thirst are still responsible to repent. It is not God's fault that they cannot and do not thirst.
Christians have the disposition to do the will of God. But even then it is by the Spirit's leading.
Jack
So if I understand you correctly God is a respector of persons and Jesus does not draw all men unto himself?So the “whosoever will” is for only those that God wills?
There is an inherant thirst for God in every man which is shown by his constant worship of other things or other gods.
But again, man can choose to obey or not to or he is just a puppet or a robot and is doomed to whatever his invironment dictates!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote So if I understand you correctly God is a respector of persons and Jesus does not draw all men unto himself?
God loved Jacob but hated Esau (Rom. 9)WJ:
Quote So the “whosoever will” is for only those that God wills?
He will have mercy on whom HE WILL have mercy. And whom HE WILL He hardens (Romans 9).WJ:
Quote There is an inherant thirst for God in every man which is shown by his constant worship of other things or other gods.
There is none that seeketh after God (Romans 3). Man's constant worship of other things shows his thirst to be an idolater. Why would they worship other things when the revelation of God in nature declares the glory of the true God (Rom. 2).WJ:
Quote But again, man can choose to obey or not to or he is just a puppet or a robot and is doomed to whatever his invironment dictates!
Man is a lump of clay which God can use as He sees fit. Paul said that the Potter can take of the same lump and make one vessel for glory and another vessel for dishonor as He so chooses. Paul added that we still cannot find fault with God (Rom. 9).Jack
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 19 2010,06:52) hi TT
why do we have to seek God ,if it is up to God we may just sit and wait?????
By the prophet Isaiah God said that it was those who did NOT seek Him that found Him:“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name. Is. 65:1Paul said that this is true NOW:
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“ I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”Paul was going on His merry way killing christians and he found God when not seeking Him. You were going on your merry way and you found Him when you were not seeking Him. Isaiah prophesied this and Paul said it is true in this age that God is found by those who do not seek Him. There is none that seek Him:
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.” Romans 3:10-12thinker
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