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Hi William,
The meaning of twilight/between evenings is debatable from what I read on the internet. I personally don't believe that it means between two evenings, that just doesn't make sense. It seems like people are trying to justify a 3 pm death. I will have to look at this closer but I was reading on the web that the first Passover's lamb killing is different from the future Passover. The article even said that a lamb wasn't the animal that was sacrificed later on. They mentioned the difference between an animal from a flock which would be a sheep or goat, and one from a herd which would be a type of cattle. I am surprised to find so many different opinions and reconciliations as to when the lamb was slain.If you look up the Hebrew word for 'twilight' and all the places that it is used, it seems more appropriate to mean evening-late afternoon to morning sometime, or just after sunset when the sky is still red. Between the evenings doesn't make any sense to me. That seems like just a 24 hour period. Anyway, I am rambling.
My son is in Rome for a semester and will be going to the Easter service at St. Peter's to listen to the Pope. That should be interesting! He had to register for it months in advance.
Take care William,
KathiQuote Hey David,
Esther 9:5 The Jews struck down all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and they did what they pleased to those who hated them.This is what their celebrating, sounds like a pagan custom, could there be anything more in opposition to Christian principles.
19 That is why rural Jews—those living in villages—observe the fourteenth of the month of Adar as a day of joy and feasting, a day for giving presents to each other.
Giving presents and feasting!!! sounds too close to Christmas to me.
Sorry, Seeking, been away.
I'm wondering why you are saying that the celebration of the deliverance in Esther's time was “pagan.”
–Where is the paganism in this?
–And yes, the actions involved might be in “opposition to Christian principles,” but do Christians celebrate Purim? We know Jesus changed some things: “You heard that it was said….but I say to you….”
–Are the Jews celebrating killing people or are they celebrating their deliverance? Either way, most people oppose Christmas because they believe that the origins are based on paganism and the custom are imitations of paganism. So, what does any of this have to do with why people argue against Christmas?And your comment: “giving presents and feastings…”
No one has ever said “giving presents” is wrong. No one on here has ever said “feasting” is wrong. This is a strawman argument.
Quote As to lies, I never lied to my kids but told them the absolute truth regarding all holidays. So I ask you why do you pass judgment on a person who regards one day as special does so to the Lord. when we're told; Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.Question: When it says: “one persons faith allows them to eat anything” do you think this includes meat with blood in it?
Isn't this talking about meat that was either destined for a pagan temple or was used in paganism. Such meat in itself isn't intrinsically bad (just like evergreen trees, candles, giving presents, etc) aren't intrinsically bad. So, the left over meat for example, could you buy that and eat it? Or, more appropriately, buying chocolate or eggs that were for easter, but easter has passed. One persons conscious allows it, and another's doesn't. Such things, eating such type of meat, is a matter of personal conscious.But, eating meat with blood in it, isn't. This scripture doesn't give you unlimited freedom to do whatever you want and put a ribbon on it and call it fine. You can do whatever you want, but if it goes directly against scripture, people will attempt to tell you this (just like with the trinity and everything else on here.)
I think that if this is paganism that is being imitated and if the story of Christmas is a story of lies, then those things ARENT a matter of conscience. But, if someone (a pagan for example) throws that Christmas tree away, and a Christian comes along, he might feel bad about taking that tree and using it for his own purposes. Or, he might be fine with it. Such things, aren't to be judged. It's a matter of conscience. But, taking that same tree (if it is from paganism) and imitating the pagan ways, how can that be a matter of conscience?
Again, does this scripture give you unlimited freedom? Could a person eat meat filled with blood, for example?
(Q) Is observing Christmas and Easter OK?
(A) I don't see why it wouldn't be?
Christmas: Jesus' “Conception” was right around that time,
and all Life begins at conception rather than birth.Easter: Jesus' death & resurrection occurred right around that time,
Jesus passed around bread and wine for us to remember him.Both Christmas and Easter force an unbelieving pagan world to remember “Jesus is Lord“! <– What can be wrong with that!
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgGood points Ed. I do see a good possibility that the birth was at Christmas time but it may have been the conception. Either way, they are both events within the Christmas story.
Quote Both Christmas and Easter force an unbelieving pagan world to remember “Jesus is Lord”! This simply isn't true.
I could equally say: Attaching the pagan name “easter” to Jesus death/resurrection forces “christians” to remember paganism.
Christians no more think of the paganism of Easter than non Christians think of Christ when celebrating Christmas. The vast majority of those who celebrate Christmas don't believe in Jesus. Everyone likes to celebrate and will gladly do so for any reason.
If an alien landed on the planet and you tried to explain to him that there is a holiday where 2/3 of those celebrating it don't actually believe the one who's birth the holiday is claimed to be for ever existed, he would say “the people of earth like to party, regardless of reason.” Then, he would eat your brain.
“The early Christians,” states Professor Ferguson in his book The Religions of the Roman Empire, “did not celebrate the birthday of Jesus; it was unrecorded.” The World Book Encyclopedia explains: “The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”–Vol. 3, p. 416.
“December 25 is a Christian festival and is observed as the anniversary of the birth of Christ. In early times this day was not one of the feasts of the Christian Church. In fact, the church fathers frowned upon the celebration of birthdays and thought them a heathen custom.”–New Book of Knowledge (1978), Vol. 3, p. 289.
According to the Encyclopedia Judaica, “the celebration of birthdays is unknown in traditional Jewish ritual.” Similarly, historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190)
States Dr. John C. McCollister, a Lutheran minister, in his book The Christian Book of Why: “Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus—for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s) was a custom of the pagans.”
“Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
Frontier, a publication of Frontier Airlines, observed: “To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ. It was sacrilege to even suggest that a Divine Being had a birthday. . . .In the next 300 years this attitude began to change, and in 354 A.D., the Bishop of Rome declared December 25 to be the anniversary of the birth of Christ.”–Dec. 1981.
If the early Christians considered it “unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday,” then what happened? As Frontier says, “In the next 300 years their attitude began to change.”
Is it possible that this change had to do with the apostasy that Jesus foretold?
The very earliest Christians didn't celebrate Jesus birth.
–Why not?
–Were they wrong to not celebrate it?
–Were they wrong to shun birthday celebrations?I haven't spent a tremendous amount of time studying this. I don't have a lot of references. One of the references (book of knowledge) was just an encyclopedia I grabbed off the shelf of at my parents house. But it seems that it is a fact that the earliest Christians purposely refused to celebrate birthdays, including Jesus' birthday.
Can anyone show otherwise?
Suppose you knew that a knife had been used for a dishonorable purpose. How would you feel about using that same knife for cutting and eating your food?
David,
My sources contradict what yours say. Read the last couple of pages on the other Christmas thread that you started here:Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2012,14:09) David,
My sources contradict what yours say. Read the last couple of pages on the other Christmas thread that you started here:
Lighten up, are there are sources that indicate that the early Christians celebrated jesus birth (or birthdays in general)?Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,19:42) David, Annie and Irene,
I found an ancient Syriac document that contains what the Apostles were led to write up for the instructions for the church right after they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. I am just quoting it in part since it is a little long to quote the whole thing. It does talk about worshiping on Sunday, celebrating the Epiphany of Christ as the most important celebration, and celebrating the passion and resurrection among many other things. You ought to read the whole thing.…And, whilst Simon Cephas was saying these things to his fellow-apostles, and putting them in remembrance, a mysterious voice was heard by them, and a sweet odour, which was strange to the world, breathed upon them;(10) and tongues of fire, between the voice and the odour, came down from heaven(11) towards them, and alighted and sat on every one of them; and, according to the tongue which every one of them had severally received, so did he prepare himself to go to the country in which that tongue was spoken and heard.And, by the same gift of the Spirit which was given to them on that day, they appointed Ordinances and Laws-such as were in accordance with the Gospel of their preaching, and with the true and faithful doctrine of their teaching:–
1. The apostles therefore appointed: Pray ye towards the east:(12) because, “as the lightning which lighteneth from the east and is seen even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of man be: “(13) that by this we might know and understand that He will appear from the east suddenly.(14)
2. The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation:(15) because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven.(16)
3. The apostles further appointed: On the fourth(17) day of the week let there be service: because on that day our Lord made the disclosure to them about His trial,(18) and His suffering, and His crucifixion, and His death, and His resurrection; and the disciples were on account of this in sorrow.(19)
4. The apostles further appointed: On the eve of the Sabbath,(20) at the ninth hour, let there be service: because that which had been spoken on the fourth day of the week about the suffering of the Saviour was brought to pass on the same eve; the worlds and creatures trembling, and the luminaries in the heavens being darkened.
5. The apostles further appointed: Let there be elders and deacons, like the Levites;(21) and subdeacons,(22) like those who carried the vessels of the court of the sanctuary of the Lord; and an overseer,(23) who shall likewise be the Guide of all the people,(24) like Aaron, the head and chief of all the priests and Levites of the whole city.(25) 6. The apostles further appointed: Celebrate the day of the Epiphany(26) of our Saviour, which is the chief of the festivals of the Church, on the sixth day of the latter Canun,(27) in the long number of the Greeks.(28)
7. The apostles further appointed: Forty(29) days before the day of the passion of our Saviour fast ye, and then celebrate the day of the passion, and the day of the resurrection: because our Lord Himself also, the Lord of the festival, fasted forty days; and Moses and Elijah, who were endued with this mystery, likewise each fasted forty days, and then were glorified…
For the full article and footnotes, please read:
Found here: http://www.studylight.org/his….145.htmGod bless,
Kathi
David,
This, in the quote post, was written by the apostles before they split up to go into the nations to spread the gospel. It establishes the “day of the Epiphany of our Savior, which is the chief of the festivals of the church, on the sixth day of the latter Canun…”Have you heard of the Day of the Epiphany festival before I posted about it?
Quote (david @ April 22 2012,16:15) http://books.google.ca/books?id=ok5iAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
“the doctrine of the apostles” page 24 in the link above.Ok, so, in “The Doctrine of the Apostles” on page 24 of the Syrian Documents, we find the words:
“Celebrate the day of the Epiphany of our Saviour, which is the chief of the festivals of the Church, on the sixth day of the latter Canun, in the long number of the Greeks.”
My next question is: When was the Syrian documents written?
Also, is Epiphany on Jan 6?
Is Epiphany supposed to be the celebration of Jesus' birth? Or, what is it of?Hi David,
Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I have been busy. I have my dear mom and her friend staying with me for a couple of weeks. Off the top of my head, I believe that the doctrine of the apostles tells when it was written. I think it was on the day of Pentecost after they received the tongues or near that time and before the apostles split up to go out to preach the gospel to the nations that God gave them the language for. the 'Epiphany' was regarding the manifestation of deity as He appeared in the flesh at birth (nativity) and to the Gentiles (the wise men) and to the public (Jesus' baptism). So, you see that His birth was part of this celebration and that it was established soon after the resurrection. I'm too tired from playing 'tour guide' to quote from the text at your link besides it doesn't let me highlight and copy unless I download the book. You should be able to see for yourself when it was written. It was celebrated on Jan 6th in some regions according to their calendar. Later on, the date of Dec. 25 was designated as the birth date from seeking out the census documents apparently. Then the Jan. 6th date became the date of the wise men's visit and the baptism years later. The twelve days of Christmas has to do with the days from Christmas Eve to the eve of the feast of Epiphany, from what I gathered by reading different info about it.Your link has interesting info regarding the history of the church and clearly states that Jesus was a part of the eternal godhead. In other words…not created. See page 6 and 7 of the book at the link that you put up for that. Page 36 should be of interest to you too as it speaks of the Son's eternal existence. I know that this topic is not about that though even though it is an essential element of who the Son is.
Let me know your thoughts on this, David.
Take care,
KathiI came across this which is written by the twelve Apostles some time after the resurrection and during the early days of the church. This document is called the Didascalia. It tells us that Friday was the day that Jesus was crucified. Day one is counted as the day He hung on the cross, night one is the three hours of darkness that took place that afternoon.
[v. 13] Wherefore, when you fast, pray and intercede for [[181]] them that are lost; as we also did when our Saviour suffered.� [v. 14]� For while He was yet with us before He suffered, as we were eating the Passover with Him, He said to us: To-day, in this night, one of you will betray me. (p. 88) And we said unto Him, each one of us: Is it I, Lord? And he answered and said to us: He that putteth forth his hand with me into the dish [Mk 14.30; Mt 26.21-23 (Mk 14.18-20)]. And Judas Iscariot, who was one of us, rose up and went his way to betray Him [cf. Jn 13.30]. Then our Lord said to us: Verily I say unto you, a little while and ye will leave me; for it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the lambs of his flock shall be scattered [Jn 16.32; Mt 26.31; Mk 14.27]. And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and betrayed our Lord Jesus.
Now this was done on the fourth day of the week. For when we had eaten the passover on the third day of the week at even, we went forth to the Mount of Olives; and in the night they seized our Lord Jesus. And the next day, which was the fourth of the week, He remained in ward in the house of Caiaphas the high priest. And on the same day the chiefs of the people were assembled and took counsel against Him. And on the next day again, which was the fifth of the week, they brought Him to Pilate the governor. And He remained again in ward with Pilate the night after the fifth day of the week. But when it drew on (towards day) on the Friday, [[182]] they accused him much [Mk 15.3] before Pilate; and they could show nothing that was true, but gave false witness against Him. And they asked Him of Pilate to be put to death; and they crucified Him on the same Friday.
He suffered, then, at the sixth hour on Friday. And these hours wherein our Lord was crucified were reckoned a day. And afterwards, again, there was darkness for three hours; and it was reckoned a night. And again, from the ninth hour until evening, three hours, (reckoned) a day. And afterwards again, (there was) the night of the Sabbath of the Passion. — But in the Gospel of Matthew it is thus written: At even on the sabbath, when the first day of the week drew on, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the tomb. And there was a great earthquake: for an angel of the Lord came down and rolled away the stone [Mt 28.1-2]. — And again (there was) the day of the Sabbath; and then three hours of the night after the Sabbath, wherein our Lord slept. And that was fulfilled which He said: The Son of man must pass three days and three nights in the heart of the earth [Mt 12.40], as it is written in the Gospel. And again it is written in David: Behold, thou hast set my days in measure [Ps 38.6 LXX]. Now because those days and nights came short, it was so written. [[183]]
From chapter 21 found here: http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html
I observe Christmas,Easter and pass out candy,and carve a jack-o-lantern on Halloween too.I've been told that doing such on halloween makes me a devil worshiper since all these things can be traced back to the druids.I do understand that many of the church traditions and holidays are traced back to pagan holidays and Christianity adopted much paganism.
But I think it's a matter of conscience;God looks on our hearts.If one feels convictions not to do these things then they shouldn't.
I personally don't think carving a jack-o-lantern and passing out candy to little ghouls is devil worship,nor is putting up a tree at Christmas.
It seems to me that it's all in how one thinks about it as in
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
or Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Passing out candy for the joy of children doesn't come across as devil worship to me and is a far cry from whatever druids did and witches and satanists may still do today.I came across this to show support for the Dec. 25th date for the birth of Christ:
Another View: Maybe Christ was born on DEC 25th afterall!
By John Eidsmoe and Ben DuPré
The secularizers commonly defend the de-Christianization of Christmas by noting that America is a much more diverse nation than we used to be, that we shouldn't offend others, that saying “Merry Christmas” might be bad for business and that public Christmas observances might even violate the First Amendment.
Then they deliver their crowning blow: “Besides, everybody knows Jesus wasn't born in December.”
But saying “everybody knows” begs the question, as saying “all scholars agree” defines anyone who doesn't agree as a non-scholar. At the risk of flying in the face of this collective modern wisdom, we suggest that there is substantial, though not conclusive, evidence that Jesus was born in December.
The biblical evidence
What does the Bible say about the date of Jesus' birth? Luke 2:6 tells us that “the days were accomplished that she should be delivered,” so we assume Jesus was a full-term baby, born nine months after His conception. Luke 1:26 says the angel Gabriel announced the conception of Jesus to Mary in the sixth month of her cousin Elizabeth's pregnancy with John the Baptist. So Jesus was conceived about six months after John the Baptist was conceived.
So when was John the Baptist conceived? That's more difficult, but the Scriptures suggest some answers. John's father was Zacharias, a Levite priest “of the course of Abia [Abijah]” (Luke 1:5). According to I Chronicles 24:7-19, King David had divided the priests into 24 orders, and these orders took turns serving in the temple for a period of eight days twice a year, separated from their wives and children. During their Zacharias and the other priests of the course of Abia served during the 10th and 24th weeks of the Jewish year.
The angel of the Lord spoke to Zacharias “while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course” (Luke 1:8), that is, while he was performing his service in the temple. After his course was finished he left the temple, returned to his wife, Elizabeth, and John was conceived (Luke 1:23-24). If this was after the second course, that is, the 24th week of the year, John would have been conceived around September or October and born around June or July. Jesus' conception six months later would have occurred around March or April and His birth around December or January.
There is no certainty to this theory, especially given that the Jewish calendar (of only 360 days) may have been different from King David's time to Jesus' time. But based on the scriptural account
of Zacharias's service in the temple, it is well within the realm of possibility that Jesus was born in December.he extrabiblical evidence
St. John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.), whose status in eastern Orthodoxy is comparable to that of Augustine in western Roman Catholicism, argued strongly for a Dec. 25 birthdate because of the course of Zacharias' priestly service. But he also based his conclusion on the findings of Pope Julius. Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem (348-386 A.D.) had asked Pope Julius to ascertain the date of Christ's birth “from the census documents brought by Titus to Rome” after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Julius then determined the date of Christ's birth to be Dec. 25.
Julius, Cyril and Chrysostom were not alone in their reliance upon the census documents. Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.), in a detailed statement of the Christian faith addressed to Emperor Marcus Aurelius, stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem “as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing.” (Apology, I, 34). Likewise, Tertullian (160-250 A.D.) wrote of “the census of Augustus – that most faithful witness of the Lord's nativity, kept in the archives of Rome” Contra Marcion, Book 4, 7).
Unfortunately, we do not have access to these census records today. But perhaps the better part of wisdom bids us to assume that these church fathers had access to information that we do not possess, and that they knew what they were talking about.
Some have said that Jesus couldn't have been born in December because shepherds did not keep their sheep in the fields past late autumn. But Alfred Edersheim, in his classic work “The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah (1883) ,” cites ancient Jewish sources to the effect that flocks of sheep “remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season – i.e. all the year round” (Book 2, p. 186). There was also a special class of Levitical shepherds who kept sacrificial lambs in the field all year round because they were used for sacrifice every month of the year.
Winters can be cold in Palestine, but they vary greatly, and some Decembers are rather mild. A recent study of stalagmites and stalactites in caves near Jerusalem strongly suggests that the average annual rainfall dropped nearly 50 percent from about 3 feet in 100 A.D. to about 1.6 feet in 700 A.D. Average winter temperatures may have varied as well. If Mary could have given birth to a baby in a Bethlehem stable, then hardy shepherds could have watched their flocks in the fields at the same time.
Edersheim concludes, “There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date (Dec. 25). The objections generally made rest on grounds, which seem to me historically untenable.”
In the end, no one's Christian faith should depend upon whether Dec. 25 is the date of Jesus' birth, nor do such questions give us any reason to take Christ out of Christmas. We'd welcome responses from anyone who can prove or disprove this thesis. But sometimes it is comforting, and even fun, to learn that ancient scholars and ancient traditions may have been right all along.
Found here: http://www.plaintruth.com/the_pla….665970c
Quote (david @ April 22 2012,16:29) Ok, so, in “The Doctrine of the Apostles” on page 24 of the Syrian Documents, we find the words: “Celebrate the day of the Epiphany of our Saviour, which is the chief of the festivals of the Church, on the sixth day of the latter Canun, in the long number of the Greeks.”
My next question is: When was the Syrian documents written?
Also, is Epiphany on Jan 6?
Is Epiphany supposed to be the celebration of Jesus' birth? Or, what is it of?
Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the NICOLAITANS, which I also hate.Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the NICOLAITANS, which thing I hate.
wakeup.
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