Is observing christmas and easter ok?

Participant

LU, looking at history, did the earliest Christians celebrate his birth?
If not, why do you think that is?

March 25, 2012 at 4:55 am#287404

Pastry

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2012,05:56)

Quote

you have just judged ALL Christians that celebrate Christmas as the story of Jesus' birth

–LU

Christmas (the holiday on Dec 25?) IS NOT THE STORY OF JESUS BIRTH!

So, if I am guilty of judging that as being the case, then so be it.

It's not the day of his birth.
The story of Christmas is a mixture of lies and paganism.
I consider these indisputable facts.

My point which you perhaps missed was that there would be many who believed strongly that what they were doing was right, (saying “lord, lord”) when in fact, it wasn't right. And in fact, they were enemies of Christ. And enemies of truth, and clean worship.

I think there is a good reason the earliest Christians, those that knew Jesus, those that came after Jesus, including for the next few hundred years, didn't celebrate his birthday.

I think they were avoiding paganism. Birthday celebrations customs of today (candles, the birthday cake), these didn't just occur to someone some day. They have meaning, and that meaning is connected to their pagan customs where they originated. [[Candles aren't intrinsically wrong. Cake isn't intrinsically wrong, so don't say I'm saying that.]]

LU, looking at history, did the earliest Christians celebrate his birth?
If not, why do you think that is?

Also, how do you think this relates to the apostasy that Jesus (and Peter, Paul and John) foretold?

David! This subject has been talked about every year when Easter or Christmas comes around…. I agree with you and annie, Christ was not even born on Dec. 25, but the Sun God was, and then to say it is Christs Birthday, make me sad
God is not pleased that most are celebrating what in Scriptures are never mentioned….only one time is a Birthday mentioned, and not in a very pleasant way….
It is just like thinking Sunday is the day we should worship and celebrate the Sabbath on….
All is false, and one day the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS will come again and set all straight…. To that day I am forever looking forward to…with Peace and Love Irene

March 25, 2012 at 5:54 pm#287541

Participant

Quote

only one time is a Birthday mentioned, and not in a very pleasant way….

weren't there two Pastry?–Pharoah and Herod?

The Catholic Encyclopedia, quoting Origen Adamantius of the third century says: “Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicing over the day on which they were born into this world below.”–(New York, 1911), Vol. X, p. 709

Dr. R. S. Conway explains: “The great theologian Origen, early in the third century several times repeats a remark which he says he took from one of his predecessors, that no just man or Christian saint had ever kept a birthday, his own or anyone else’s. It was only evil persons like Pharaoh or Herod whose birthday celebrations were mentioned in the Scriptures. This shows pretty clearly that if he had ever heard of such a festival as Christmas he repudiated it entirely.”–Ancient Italy and Modern Religion

Even though most people today regard it as an innocent custom, the Bible does not paint a positive picture of this tradition. The only two birthdays the Bible does mention were for rulers who were enemies of God–Pharaoh and Herod. And each celebration included an execution, so that the guests could gloat over the death of the one who had displeased the king.

In the first instance, Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, (18th century B.C.E) executed his chief baker. (Gen 40:2,3,20,22) The Egyptian ruler did so during the feast because he had grown indignant with his servant.

In the second instance, Herod Antipas, the immoral ruler of Galilee in the 1st century C.E. beheaded John the Baptizer as a favor to a girl whose dancing at a party had pleased him.–Mat. 14:6-11

These are the only two birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible. Is it just coincidental that they are mentioned and that both were for persons not having God’s approval? Or could it be that God deliberately had these details recorded in his Word, which he says is “beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight”? (2 Tim. 3:16) At the very least it can be said that these two accounts Biblically put birthday celebrations in a bad light, as a practice of those estranged from God.

March 25, 2012 at 6:42 pm#287552

annie

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2012,17:00)

Hi Annie,

Quote

I do not condemn you nor do I judge you or other Christians for keeping these holidays

Maybe you should reread your posts here.

Quote

As this is an open forum for all to see, as well as you, all I said was that as long as you and others who think its okay to celebrate these holidays, still refuse to see the truth about what SCRIPTURE has to say about these two particular holidays that are taken from pagan days and customs of worship, then continuing is senseless.

I think you have a hard time rightly dividing the word of God. I was reading something a 'closet pagan' had written. She said that she put up Christmas trees to disguise the fact that she was a pagan so that her family would think that she was a Christian like them. The pagans know the difference. They know that the Christmas tree is not the same as their Yule tree. They know that Christians worship another God, not their god. I could see your point if they thought that Christians were honoring their gods with their similar customs but they don't, not from what I can tell. Also, the church meets on the first day of the week, not because of honoring a sun god but because of the resurrection being on the first day of the week. That began way before Constantine made it official. Do you think that you should rebuke the Lord for rising from the dead on the same day that the sun god is worshiped? That is an example of a holy event happening on the same day as a pagan event. Go figure. It didn't stop God. He does not work around the pagan days, they did not control Him and why should they then control us?

As far as the three days and the three nights go, I understand. I figure that it is possible that Jesus died on a Thursday, though. I also think that it is possible that the saying 'three days and three nights' is a Hebrew idiom not to be taken literally. I also read somewhere that they did not have a zero in their numbers. The early church fathers did not mention anything about a second sabbath in their writings. From what I read, they write of a Friday passion and there was no controversy on that amongst the early church fathers. Maybe I just haven't read about it, idk. I really don't think it is a detail to cause one to discredit the church. We are told that He rose on the first day of the week and that is the day that I celebrate. The Bible doesn't say which day of the week that He died. It comes down to how it can be counted and people count it in different ways, for instance, a part of a day is considered one day by some and only a 12 hour day is considered one day by others.

Perhaps the difference between how you perceive all of this and how I perceive this is that you seem to look at the small details whereas I look at the bigger picture. Idk. In other words, to use an English idiom, “Some people can't see the forest for the trees.” A difference in perception is the root of this type of discussion, imo.

I think we need to agree to disagree because continuing this seems to be fruitless.

Blessings,
Kathi

Hi Kathi

Perhaps, you should read my quote again. You will notice I said, they refuse to hear what SCRIPTURE tells us. Scripture is God's Word not mine. So the scripture itself is the judge of right and wrong, not me.

“With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: 'You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn to me to heal them.' ” Matt.13:14,15

Yes, the differences between us IS in the details. You happen to think that the details of HOW we worship are small and insignificant, and the big picture, worship, is the thing. Therefore, it really doesn't matter to you HOW you worship, as long as you worship, so you follow whatever the Church tells you about these two holidays as well as the change of God's commandment of keeping the 7th day Sabbath.

I, on the other hand, happen to think the details of HOW we worship make all the difference to the worship itself, as God tells us not only to worship Him, but He also tells us HOW we are to worship Him. So obviously, HE thinks the details are important to our worship. So I choose to follow how He wants to be worshiped, according to scripture, His Word, and not according to everything the Church tells me. For the Christian Church has replaced God's commandments with their man made holidays and rules.

I don't think Yeshua would have said something that He didn't mean, so I don't think he was using a “Hebrew idiom” as you say, but actually meant 3 days and 3 nights. I also know that God did NOT change the 7th day Sabbath (and He, himself, is the only one with the authority to change it) or Yeshua and His disciples would have taught it. The Catholic Church freely admits they are the ones who changed it to Sunday. This, based only on assumption by the Church that He rose on Sunday, as again, there is no scriptural evidence to that. With Him being put in the ground just before sundown on Wednesday, would mean that YHWH raised Him just before sundown on the 7th day Sabbath, not on Sunday. Since Yeshua walked among his people for 40 days after his resurrection, I would think if he wanted us to now keep Sunday in honor of his resurrection instead of the 7th day Sabbath he would have said so. According to historians of the time, as well as scripture, Yeshua's disciples, including Paul kept the 7th day Sabbath as well as the Feasts. The fact that people started keeping Sunday doesn't mean they were following the truth. Yeshua taught the truth and since his disciples didn't follow the teaching of Sunday, then I don't consider it to be the truth. As Yeshua tells us,

“False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But take heed; I HAVE TOLD YOU ALL THINGS BEFOREHAND.” Mark 13:22,23

My practice is to check everything taught against scripture. If the teaching is in there, fine, but if it is not then I search to make sure its in line with scripture, if it isn't in line with what scripture teaches then I throw it out. Scripture will always agree with scripture, there are no contradictions in it.

“Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.” Acts 17:11

All I have done is to try to show you what scripture says about worship taken from pagan days and customs, ( which describe the two holidays of Christmas and Easter exactly), what you choose to do, of course, is entirely up to you.

YHWH Shalom

March 25, 2012 at 10:15 pm#287607

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.html

Participant

David, Annie and Irene,
I think that ya'll need to not be dogmatic on the issue. You have not got all the facts. Look at this well written article for instance:

It shows you how Zacharias performed service in the temple at two different times a year. If Luke 1 is referring to time a, then Jesus was likely conceived at the end of December and born in September or around there. If Luke 1 is referring to time b, then Jesus was likely conceived near passover and born on or near Dec. 25th.

The early church held a feast of Annunciation on March 25th every year likely in response to the 'time b' when Zacharias performed the service mentioned in Luke 1…when he saw the angel telling him that he was going to have John the Baptist. The coincidental little detail that I want to mention is that I did not know about the feast of Annunciation (which honors the day that Mary was visited by Gabriel who announced the conception to come), till this morning before I went to church. The coincidence is that today is March 25th and that is the date of the feast of Annunciation…March 25th. I know that is neither here nor there necessarily unless I was going to take it as a 'sign.' There was no pagan origin of the date Dec. 25th according to this.

Here is another article that tells us that there is no pagan origin to Dec. 25th.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

The first link has this as part of its conclusion:

“In light of these uncertainties, it is perhaps advisable to take a humble attitude and confess our ignorance of the matter. The important thing, of course, is that our LORD was indeed born and ransomed us from the wages of our sins.”

Also, the author leaves us with a quote from Augustine of Hippo:

In necessariis unitas (in essentials unity),
In dubiis libertas (in doubtful things liberty),
In omnibus autem caritas (but in all things love).

Blessings!
Kathi

March 25, 2012 at 10:49 pm#287616

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 24 2012,13:57)

LU, looking at history, did the earliest Christians celebrate his birth?
If not, why do you think that is?

David,
From what I can tell, birthdays weren't mentioned as being celebrated by the Hebrews. Neither were wedding anniversaries for that matter but does that keep you from celebrating them?

In ancient times calendars went through changes, Christians worshiped quietly because of persecution, printed calendars weren't available, people didn't keep a record of birth certificates, so the world of the early church was so different than when Christianity was accepted as the national religion. There are records that Epiphany was celebrated which is about the nativity and the magi early on Jan 6th. I think that I saw something about it in the ancient Syriac documents but I would have to look for it.

My guess after looking into it as much as I did, which certainly hasn't been an exhaustive study, is that the common celebration of birthdays is the result of a process of change in thinking and ways of celebrating the event. Certainly celebrating a birthday celebrated with murder would be a reason that birthdays weren't celebrated by the early church. Obviously birthdays are not about murdering someone for the everyday person nowadays. There were only two examples in the Bible that mentioned birthdays and so it is hard to say what was a common practice among the Gentiles. The custom has certainly changed though and there is freedom to celebrate a birthday or not and how it is celebrated is also up to those hosting the event. Self-centeredness, murder, commercialism, etc. are everyday problems. Celebrating birthdays, celebrating Christmas, celebrating Easter can all be handled in a God fearing, Spirit led manner or they can be handled in a fleshly manner. If you stop the celebration of Christmas and Easter, you do not stop self-centeredness, murder, commercialism or pagan worship. What you do stop are the two most celebrated seasons where the gospel is preached. That would mean a victory for satan and the pagans. So, whose side are you on?

March 25, 2012 at 10:55 pm#287619

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Mar. 24 2012,23:55)

Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2012,05:56)

Quote

you have just judged ALL Christians that celebrate Christmas as the story of Jesus' birth

–LU

Christmas (the holiday on Dec 25?) IS NOT THE STORY OF JESUS BIRTH!

So, if I am guilty of judging that as being the case, then so be it.

It's not the day of his birth.
The story of Christmas is a mixture of lies and paganism.
I consider these indisputable facts.

I think there is a good reason the earliest Christians, those that knew Jesus, those that came after Jesus, including for the next few hundred years, didn't celebrate his birthday.

LU, looking at history, did the earliest Christians celebrate his birth?
If not, why do you think that is?

Also, how do you think this relates to the apostasy that Jesus (and Peter, Paul and John) foretold?

Irene,
Do you celebrate your birthday? How about Georg's and your kids…grandkids, do you celebrate theirs?

What do you do on the seventh day sabbath that is in keeping with what the Jews did??

You must be feeling better since you are posting on here

Take care,
Kathi

March 26, 2012 at 12:42 am#287656

Participant

David, Annie and Irene,
I found an ancient Syriac document that contains what the Apostles were led to write up for the instructions for the church right after they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. I am just quoting it in part since it is a little long to quote the whole thing. It does talk about worshiping on Sunday, celebrating the Epiphany of Christ as the most important celebration, and celebrating the passion and resurrection among many other things. You ought to read the whole thing.

…And, whilst Simon Cephas was saying these things to his fellow-apostles, and putting them in remembrance, a mysterious voice was heard by them, and a sweet odour, which was strange to the world, breathed upon them;(10) and tongues of fire, between the voice and the odour, came down from heaven(11) towards them, and alighted and sat on every one of them; and, according to the tongue which every one of them had severally received, so did he prepare himself to go to the country in which that tongue was spoken and heard.And, by the same gift of the Spirit which was given to them on that day, they appointed Ordinances and Laws-such as were in accordance with the Gospel of their preaching, and with the true and faithful doctrine of their teaching:–

1. The apostles therefore appointed: Pray ye towards the east:(12) because, “as the lightning which lighteneth from the east and is seen even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of man be: “(13) that by this we might know and understand that He will appear from the east suddenly.(14)

2. The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation:(15) because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven.(16)

3. The apostles further appointed: On the fourth(17) day of the week let there be service: because on that day our Lord made the disclosure to them about His trial,(18) and His suffering, and His crucifixion, and His death, and His resurrection; and the disciples were on account of this in sorrow.(19)

4. The apostles further appointed: On the eve of the Sabbath,(20) at the ninth hour, let there be service: because that which had been spoken on the fourth day of the week about the suffering of the Saviour was brought to pass on the same eve; the worlds and creatures trembling, and the luminaries in the heavens being darkened.

5. The apostles further appointed: Let there be elders and deacons, like the Levites;(21) and subdeacons,(22) like those who carried the vessels of the court of the sanctuary of the Lord; and an overseer,(23) who shall likewise be the Guide of all the people,(24) like Aaron, the head and chief of all the priests and Levites of the whole city.(25) 6. The apostles further appointed: Celebrate the day of the Epiphany(26) of our Saviour, which is the chief of the festivals of the Church, on the sixth day of the latter Canun,(27) in the long number of the Greeks.(28)

7. The apostles further appointed: Forty(29) days before the day of the passion of our Saviour fast ye, and then celebrate the day of the passion, and the day of the resurrection: because our Lord Himself also, the Lord of the festival, fasted forty days; and Moses and Elijah, who were endued with this mystery, likewise each fasted forty days, and then were glorified…

For the full article and footnotes, please read:
Found here: http://www.studylight.org/his….145.htm

God bless,
Kathi

March 26, 2012 at 3:43 am#287837

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 21 2012,12:04)

Is it wrong for the Jews to celebrate Purim?

Does no one want to answer if it is okay for the Jews to celebrate this man made holiday?

March 26, 2012 at 3:49 am#287843

Participant

William,
I will answer…it was just dandy to celebrate this man made holiday because it honors what God had done. It gives the glory to God for the event in history like Christmas and Easter do.

You probably didn't really want my answer though. I think you are looking for a response from David and Annie and Irene.

I hope you get what you are looking for.

March 26, 2012 at 6:50 am#287924

Participant

Quote

From what I can tell, birthdays weren't mentioned as being celebrated by the Hebrews. Neither were wedding anniversaries for that matter but does that keep you from celebrating them?

1. birthdays weren't mentioned as being celebrated by the Hebrews.
2. that keep you from celebrating them.

No, that in itself doesn't keep me from celebrating them. But my question is: Why didn't they celebrate them? Others around them were. Why didn't they learn the way of the heathens around them?

Quote

If you stop the celebration of Christmas and Easter

If someone stopped Christmas (such as the puritans briefly did a long time ago), businesses would go bankrupt. The money changers would go out of business. People would lose jobs. They would buy even less houses. The economy would plummit. Coke will not allow this to happen.

March 26, 2012 at 11:14 am#287966

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2012,11:43)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 21 2012,12:04)

Is it wrong for the Jews to celebrate Purim?

Does no one want to answer if it is okay for the Jews to celebrate this man made holiday?

David,
You have spoke against man made holidays, what is your opinion.

March 27, 2012 at 5:40 am#288147

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2012,22:14)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2012,11:43)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 21 2012,12:04)

Is it wrong for the Jews to celebrate Purim?

Does no one want to answer if it is okay for the Jews to celebrate this man made holiday?

David,
You have spoke against man made holidays, what is your opinion.

Hi Seeking,

I have never said “man made” holidays are wrong BECAUSE they are man made.

I am mostly against the lies and imitating of pagan customs. Were either of these a part of Purim?

March 27, 2012 at 9:42 am#288196

Participant

Hey David,
Esther 9:5 The Jews struck down all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and they did what they pleased to those who hated them.

This is what their celebrating, sounds like a pagan custom, could there be anything more in opposition to Christian principles.

19 That is why rural Jews—those living in villages—observe the fourteenth of the month of Adar as a day of joy and feasting, a day for giving presents to each other.

Giving presents and feasting!!! sounds too close to Christmas to me.

As to lies, I never lied to my kids but told them the absolute truth regarding all holidays. So I ask you why do you pass judgment on a person who regards one day as special does so to the Lord. when we're told; Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

David I'm not saying you should begin celebrating any holiday it would clearly be a violation of your conscience right now, but I do believe it is clearly taught for you to sit in judgement is wrong as indicated by the verses in the above paragraph.

My opinion – Wm

March 29, 2012 at 10:07 am#288764

Participant

David, any comments?

March 31, 2012 at 6:00 pm#289042

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 16 2012,18:42)

Gene,
I believe Jesus died at the same time as the lamb for passover.

Hi William,
I was reading about the very first Passover when Moses was told to kill the lamb for the Passover meal. It was at twilight on Nisan 14. Evening begins the Jewish day and so I think that just as the sun was setting, right as it was becoming Nisan 14, is when the first Passover lambs were to be slaughtered. Read this and tell me what you think:

Exodus 12:1Now the LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2“This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you. 3“Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers’ households, a lamb for each household. 4‘Now if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the number of persons in them; according to what each man should eat, you are to divide the lamb. 5‘Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6‘You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight. 7‘Moreover, they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8‘They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 9‘Do not eat any of it raw or boiled at all with water, but rather roasted with fire, both its head and its legs along with its entrails. 10‘And you shall not leave any of it over until morning, but whatever is left of it until morning, you shall burn with fire. 11‘Now you shall eat it in this manner: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste—it is the LORD’S Passover. 12‘For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD. 13‘The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

Thanks,
Kathi

March 31, 2012 at 6:17 pm#289045

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 27 2012,04:42)

Hey David,
Esther 9:5 The Jews struck down all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and they did what they pleased to those who hated them.

My opinion – Wm

Good point William!

April 6, 2012 at 4:23 am#290322

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2012,02:00)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 16 2012,18:42)

Gene,
I believe Jesus died at the same time as the lamb for passover.

Thanks,
Kathi

Kathi,
While there are other possibilities, I believe that Jesus died on what to us is Wed. evening near sunset (twilight) the very time that the lamb was slain for Passover. For the Israelites one day changed to another at sunset so Jesus was dead for 24 hours of Thursday (annual Sabbath), 24 hours of Friday (prepared the spices and waited for the 3 day “seal” to expire), and 24 hours of Saturday (the weekly Sabbath), the resurrection occurred what for us would be Saturday evening near sunset. This had Jesus dead at the 3 days and 3 nights just as He had proclaimed as the only sign to be given.

Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

I believe Mary left her house as soon as the Sabbath was over and went and bought spices at the local 24/6 market arriving at the tomb just as the sun was coming up. Jesus already wasn't there, and hadn't been for hours.

My opinion – Wm

April 6, 2012 at 6:29 am#290402

Participant

Hi William,
Jesus died at the ninth hour (3 pm.) in the afternoon, not at twilight. He died in the spring and 3pm is several hours before twilight at this time of year.

Mark 15:33When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” which is translated, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” 35When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, “Behold, He is calling for Elijah.” 36Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down.” 37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. 38And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”

April 7, 2012 at 2:51 am#290554