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Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,12:02) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:12) Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,07:16) Kerwin, my advise to Peter would be: Do not disown Jesus. But your point is noted and a good one. I shall add it to my file. To which i respond: Kerwin, if you lived in the first century, or the second, would you tell the Christians around you that they should no longer avoid celebrating jesus' birthday?
David,I know of none that celebrated his birthday. If any did; I would advise them that in celebrating it they celebrate it to the Lord.
Many, whatever their claims to the contrary, do not celebrate to the Lord at the present time.
Kerwin, why did they refuse to celebrate it?Or, do you think they just didn't think of it–like it never occured to them?
People did celebrate birthdays back then.
So, Kerwin, why do you think the earliest christians didn't celebrate Christ's birth?
David,I have little knowledge of what the people of Christ did. I do know that people celebrate those days they deem important. I also know they celebrated during Passover.
People all over the world can sing this from their heart but not many here. This is a major problem here. I can't imagine why anyone that believes in Jesus' name wouldn't celebrate His birth and resurrection, it truly is beyond me.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2012,00:24) People all over the world can sing this from their heart but not many here. This is a major problem here. I can't imagine why anyone that believes in Jesus' name wouldn't celebrate His birth and resurrection, it truly is beyond me.
I am not told to celebrate His birth in the scriptures, however, I do celebrate the gift from the Father, of Yeshua our Messiah, everyday with my praises and prayers from my heart.I no longer celebrate Christmas and Easter but I instead keep His Feasts, as commanded in scripture as well as the only new commandment He gave us, which was to remember His death and what He did for us in our stead with the bread and wine.
The Feast of Passover (which includes the first 4 feasts) is all about His death, burial, and resurrection as He is the spiritual fulfillment of the Exodus story of God's salvation of Israel.
You are wrong in what you say about most people on here, and not wanting to celebrate Yeshua. Just because people don't celebrate Christmas and Easter doesn't mean they don't celebrate His death, and resurrection. The Feasts of the Lord celebrate the story of God's redemption of mankind through Yeshua our Messiah! So every time we celebrate the Feasts of the Lord we are celebrating our Lord and Savior Yeshua!
The celebration of the Feasts of the Lord has brought so much more meaning to my faith. I realize now why Christmas and Easter just didn't cut it anymore (I celebrated Christmas and Easter for almost 30 years). But wow! What a wonderful revelation when I discovered how the first 4 feasts told the WHOLE story, right to the littlest detail, from Moses, to the fulfillment of what was told to Moses, our Messiah! Then I realized how the Passover Seder itself told the story so beautifully as it was amazing to me how Yeshua fit perfectly into every element of the Seder! The pieces now fit so wonderfully my faith came more alive I just can't explain, but there is just no denying that He is in the Passover Feast and that it is a celebration of HIM! But of course it is extremely clear now, as He IS the Jewish Messiah and now that this is so clear to me, I also find it rather ironic that Jews who still don't yet believe Yeshua is their Messiah, still celebrate Him every year at Passover and don't even know it!
I found that Passover is a much more meaningful way to celebrate what my LORD and SAVIOR has done for me than the celebrations of Christmas and Easter. I really didn't know what I was missing and was angry at the Christian Church for teaching falsely as well as at myself for following and allowing myself to be deceived.
Maybe many on here who try to get you to see the truth about Christmas and Easter have had the same experience as me, and like me, want you to experience your love for and faith in your Savior like you never have before! Can't do that though with out giving up Christmas and Easter as they aren't the real thing even though you think they are. Along with my revelation of the Feasts came also the conviction of guilt for celebrating the imitations of the enemy which called for repentance. They are strictly an imitation of the real thing, I found that out for myself and I will keep you in my prayers that someday you will find out for yourself.
Shalom
Quote (annie @ Mar. 17 2012,20:48) Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 17 2012,10:25) I would have to say if you came; Healing the sick. Bringing the dead back to life. Healing people who have leprosy. And forcing demons out of people. and told me to celebrate Christmas was wrong I would pay a lot more attention. Instead you pass judgment on a person for Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. while we are told; Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Wm
The quotes you use have been used previously. You can check out my reply to them. But for now I will say that the scriptures you quote are taken out of context and do not fit this discussion at all as they pertain to something different entirely. Scripture being taken out of context and misinterpreted is a huge problem as unfortunately, it is commonly done and confuses and leads the believer astray.There is a vast difference between judging and rebuking a brother. You would do best to study the scripture you quote and see.
The word 'judge' is used too widely and too frequently. Brothers rebuke brothers when they see they are going AGAINST God according to scripture. Christmas and Easter are very plainly AGAINST God according to scripture, so those who still practice these customs are being REBUKED by their brothers, NOT judged!
Check out the scriptures you use again.
Annie,
I've been checking scriptures out since 1979 having read them in their entirety many times over so I fail to see what scripture(s) you believe have been “taken out of context and misinterpreted”. Would you please tell me which ones and how you see them interpreted.Thank you
WmAnnie,
I think we have to go with our convictions. I do not share your conviction that Christmas and Easter are wrong. We are commanded to preach the gospel and Christmas and Easter are the two most attended days that people go to church. Many un-churched people attend church at that time as well as choir performances, etc. that might otherwise not go and hear the gospel preached. The seasons are filled with the gospel story. You claim that they are imitations of the real thing and I say they are celebrations of actual events in the Bible. The feasts mention the Messiah, Christmas and Easter identify the Messiah. The devoted, unbelieving Jews still celebrate the feasts and miss Jesus. I think it is great to celebrate the Jewish feasts if that is what you want to do but to judge those who celebrate Christmas and Easter as doing something evil is downright wrong and you place a heavy burden on those that celebrate. I considered all of these arguments a few years ago and they almost took my joy away. I believe a religious spirit can be behind all the judging. It all seems like the attitude that the Pharisees had. I wish you would realize that there is another perspective. God turns all things for good for those who love Him…He replaces bad with good. If we went around in fear that you want to generate about doing something that pagans would do then we can't even cut some flowers and put them in a vase. I will not be controlled by the fear that you want to bring, Annie. You can just keep it. I will hold fast to my convictions and be led by the Holy Spirit when He leads me to celebrate freely Christmas and Easter along with Christians all over the world…these celebrations can be about preaching the gospel and that is a command. Sure there are those in the world that do not celebrate like Spirit led Christians do but instead worry about gift giving and end up getting drunk about it. If you are led by the Spirit, you will give gifts that are given and received in love. I have been led to give wonderful gifts at Christmas time, like a puppy for my newly widowed mother who tells me over and over what a wonderful present that was. This year I made her a gift and she has gone on and on about it. My kids who were home got only one gift from us but appreciated it so. Gift giving and celebrating and all that we do are to be Spirit led. I'm done giving gifts just out of obligation. It is very freeing to give gifts as led by the Spirit. I truly enjoy giving gifts that are so enjoyed by others. Sometimes gifts are just a jar of gourmet popcorn, a plate of cookies or something small like that. People appreciate just being thought about. Gifts don't have to be big.I think it is a shame that you want to make people feel guilty for worshiping Jesus as their Lord and Savior and celebrating His birth as well as His resurrection on Christmas and Easter. Christians are to love others not condemn. I'm sure that satan would love for people to take Christ out of Christmas and Easter. That seems to be what you what you are doing. While you pray for me, you might consider asking the Lord if there is a religious spirit that drives you to condemn the majority of Christians all over the world over spreading the gospel through celebrating the story of His birth and resurrection at Christmas and Easter. You place a very unnecessary burden, imo. The gospel has specifically been told in my home on these holidays…the activities of Christmas and Easter that we partake in tell us who the Messiah is and that isn't mentioned in the feasts.
Please lets leave it at that…agree to disagree. You don't need to be corroborating about me with your insults with other members here. That is gossip and tickling itching ears and not what we are to do to those who also seek to follow Jesus (or anyone else for that matter).
May you receive God's richest blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 15 2012,18:44) Hi Gene,
The day that Jesus died is debatable. If I were walking with you on a Sunday late afternoon and said that my brother was killed and that this was the third day since it happened…what day did my brother get killed? If you can answer that correctly, then you will know what day Jesus died. Just read this bit about the story of the Road to Emmaus which took place late in the afternoon on that first day of the week when the tomb was found empty.On the Road to Emmaus
Luke 24:13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
17He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19“What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn’t find his body.
I think that it is likely that He arose when the stone was rolled away at the time of the earthquake or just before.
Jesus Is Risen!
Matt 28:1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. 5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6“He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said.
Gene,
Read the passage again. It clearly is not talking about the men implying that it has been three days since He was supposed to rise from the dead but it has been three days since “The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him.” That makes Thursday the most likely day of the crucifixion, then the sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread was Friday and the seventh day sabbath was Saturday. Thursday would be day one, Friday-day two, Saturday-day three. Thursday night would be night one, Friday night would be night two, and Saturday night would be night three. There you have three days and three nights.Anyway, I think that you are dogmatic on insisting that Wednesday was the day and you shouldn't be. Thursday is a better fit to scripture, imo. However, this is not a hill to die on. The fact is that He was crucified and He rose from the dead and declared to be the Son of God WITH POWER. Hallelujah!!
God bless,
KathiQuote (david @ Mar. 15 2012,20:29) Quote David,
I think the problem is with our different PERSPECTIVES. I see what the Christians do as REPLACING pagan customs and you see what Christians do as IMITATING pagan customs.Do you remember the story of when God told Gideon to tear down the altar of Baal and to replace it with an altar to the LORD?
Yes, I do remember that. They tore them down. They didn't then make copies of them. They didn't then in any way imitate their actions.
“In the year 601 AD, Pope Gregory came up with a brilliant idea that developed into a basic principle in Christian missionary work. Instead of obliterating traditional customs and beliefs, he decreed that missionaries should use them. If a tree was the object of worship, turn it in to God’s tree. One of the results of this policy was that Catholic holy days were set at the time of traditional holy days. Winter solstice, for instance, became Christmas. In the 9th century, the church attempted to root out the paganism associated with the Samhain festival, by moving All Saint’s Day from May to November 1”
The question is:
DOES TAKING A PAGAN CUSTOM AND GIVING IT A “CHRISTIAN” STAMP OF APPROVAL ACTUALLY MAKE IT OK? Or, is that just self deception?
David,
I will take one question at a time of your two pages of questions.you said:
Quote Yes, I do remember that. They tore them down. They didn't then make copies of them. They didn't then in any way imitate their actions.
Was that which was torn down called an altar?
Was that which was newly built in its place called an altar?Did the pagans use their altar for religious sacrifice to their god?
Did Gideon use the new altar for religious sacrifice to his God?How can you say that there weren't similarities of actions? They were both used for religious sacrifice. One was an altar for Baal, the other was an altar for God.
That is the whole point that I am trying to make here…things that one person or a group uses for their religious purpose to honor their god can be torn down and a similar type of thing can be built in its place for the religious purpose to honor the God of heaven and earth.
If you don't see that as replacing one altar for one god with an altar for the true God then I don't know why. I believe that pagan celebrations and objects used by them should be overtaken and replaced with Christian ways and means. I think that it is a good idea for missionaries to use this method as object lessons to teach a new and different purpose and intent for the day or object in order to present the gospel message. I believe the main thing is that the gospel is presented as led by the Spirit. We are commanded to preach the gospel in season and out of season.
Enough for now…
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2012,17:14) Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,12:02) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:12) Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,07:16) Kerwin, my advise to Peter would be: Do not disown Jesus. But your point is noted and a good one. I shall add it to my file. To which i respond: Kerwin, if you lived in the first century, or the second, would you tell the Christians around you that they should no longer avoid celebrating jesus' birthday?
David,I know of none that celebrated his birthday. If any did; I would advise them that in celebrating it they celebrate it to the Lord.
Many, whatever their claims to the contrary, do not celebrate to the Lord at the present time.
Kerwin, why did they refuse to celebrate it?Or, do you think they just didn't think of it–like it never occured to them?
People did celebrate birthdays back then.
So, Kerwin, why do you think the earliest christians didn't celebrate Christ's birth?
David,I have little knowledge of what the people of Christ did. I do know that people celebrate those days they deem important. I also know they celebrated during Passover.
Well, yes, they were told to celebrate the passover. Then, they were told to: “keep doing this in remembrance of me” with regard to the memorial of his death, the last supper.But no one was ever told to celebrate his birthday. But that's not my point.
My question to you is: WHY do you think they refused to celebrate his birthday? (If you think they just forgot to or it never occured to them, I can provide evidence that they purposely decided not to do so.)
And, were their reasons valid?
And if they were valid, are they valid today?
Quote Was that which was torn down called an altar?
Was that which was newly built in its place called an altar?Did the pagans use their altar for religious sacrifice to their god?
Did Gideon use the new altar for religious sacrifice to his God?How can you say that there weren't similarities of actions? They were both used for religious sacrifice. One was an altar for Baal, the other was an altar for God.
That is the whole point that I am trying to make here…things that one person or a group uses for their religious purpose to honor their god can be torn down and a similar type of thing can be built in its place for the religious purpose to honor the God of heaven and earth.
Yes, but my point is: YOU DIDN'T TEAR THOSE PAGAN CUSTOMS DOWN BUT EMBRACED (OR ADOPTED) THEM!
If you tore them down, why do they remain?
If you tore the tree down, why does it remain?
If you tore the lights down, why do they remain?
If you tore the “exchanging of gifts” down, why does it remain?
If you tore the date itself down, why does it remain?
If you tore the pagan god down, why does Santa remain?
Did you tear commercialism down as well? It remains.
If you tore holly and mistletoe down, why do they remain?
It is a lie that Dec 25th is Christ's birth. The stories that are told to children about Santa are lies.
If you have torn these things down, why do they remain?
YOU HAVE NOT TORN THEM DOWN.
Rather, you ENDORSE, CELEBRATE, POPULARIZE, ADVERTISE, these pagan customs. You simply put a stamp of “Christianity” on them.
WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU TEAR DOWN?
Quote If you don't see that as replacing one altar for one god with an altar for the true God then I don't know why.
As I think I've said before, this comparison doesn't really fit, unless the pagans were doing this in a specific way on a specific date and then the Hebrews imitated them on that day. But they didn't do this.I do not see what was done as a tearing down (or removing), for those customs live on. So, in what sense were they torn down?
The truth is, those customs would have died out long ago. Sure, they would still be practiced by the very few, but what has been done is, you have spread and expanded those customs on that day and simply added the lie that it is Christ's birth!I do not think one lie somehow erases the rest of the badness.
LU, my question:
Why did the earliest Christians not feel great about celebrating Jesus birth? Why did they shun the idea? Were they wrong to do so?
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2012,01:25) Quote Was that which was torn down called an altar?
Was that which was newly built in its place called an altar?Did the pagans use their altar for religious sacrifice to their god?
Did Gideon use the new altar for religious sacrifice to his God?How can you say that there weren't similarities of actions? They were both used for religious sacrifice. One was an altar for Baal, the other was an altar for God.
That is the whole point that I am trying to make here…things that one person or a group uses for their religious purpose to honor their god can be torn down and a similar type of thing can be built in its place for the religious purpose to honor the God of heaven and earth.
Yes, but my point is: YOU DIDN'T TEAR THOSE PAGAN CUSTOMS DOWN BUT EMBRACED (OR ADOPTED) THEM!
If you tore them down, why do they remain?
If you tore the tree down, why does it remain?
If you tore the lights down, why do they remain?
If you tore the “exchanging of gifts” down, why does it remain?
If you tore the date itself down, why does it remain?
If you tore the pagan god down, why does Santa remain?
Did you tear commercialism down as well? It remains.
If you tore holly and mistletoe down, why do they remain?
It is a lie that Dec 25th is Christ's birth. The stories that are told to children about Santa are lies.
If you have torn these things down, why do they remain?
YOU HAVE NOT TORN THEM DOWN.
Rather, you ENDORSE, CELEBRATE, POPULARIZE, ADVERTISE, these pagan customs. You simply put a stamp of “Christianity” on them.
WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU TEAR DOWN?
Quote If you don't see that as replacing one altar for one god with an altar for the true God then I don't know why.
As I think I've said before, this comparison doesn't really fit, unless the pagans were doing this in a specific way on a specific date and then the Hebrews imitated them on that day. But they didn't do this.I do not see what was done as a tearing down (or removing), for those customs live on. So, in what sense were they torn down?
The truth is, those customs would have died out long ago. Sure, they would still be practiced by the very few, but what has been done is, you have spread and expanded those customs on that day and simply added the lie that it is Christ's birth!I do not think one lie somehow erases the rest of the badness.
Hi David,You asked:
Quote
Yes, but my point is: YOU DIDN'T TEAR THOSE PAGAN CUSTOMS DOWN BUT EMBRACED (OR ADOPTED) THEM!When I started celebrating Christmas, I was a baby and I never knew any other God than the Christian God. When made aware of pagan roots, I did not adapt my ways and thoughts to the pagan thoughts. If I had grown up pagan and celebrated likewise, then come to know the Lord, I would take on the meaning of the Christian celebrations and renounce any pagan meaning. That is what I mean by tearing down pagan customs and traditions. Since I never was pagan and never participated in anything pagan, then I don't have any strongholds to tear down in my life. Now I just attempt to tear down the pagan strongholds that other Christians have that keep them from celebrating Christmas and Easter because of pagan strongholds or from burdening Christians who celebrate freely. I hate to see other Christians have a fear about replacing pagan strongholds with Christian truth or that they are doing something evil.
Quote If you tore them down, why do they remain? They never existed in my life to tear down and therefore they not only don't remain, they never existed. They seem to exist in your mind though and so I am trying to help you tear them down so that they do not remain a hurdle for you to overcome. I know that you don't have a Christmas tree tradition but it is because of a stronghold that you have. You have a fear that if you have a Christmas tree, then you participate in a pagan tradition and God will consider that evil. You need to replace that fear with the truth, the Christmas tree is not an altar with a purpose to honor a pagan god. That would be a Yule tree. Pagans know the difference but you don't seem to. A Christmas tree is merely a decoration to Christians to brighten the holiday, it is not something that is worshiped or used to honor a pagan god.
Quote
If you tore the date itself down, why does it remain?
The focus of the date is torn down and replaced. Christians don't focus on the Winter Equinox and sun god…they focus on the Son of God.Quote If you tore the pagan god down, why does Santa remain?
Santa was part of my childhood celebration and does not remain part of my own children's childhood celebration because I tore it down by not teaching my children that he was real but only a myth. Santa did not remain in my life.Quote Did you tear commercialism down as well? It remains. I give love gifts as Spirit led. Have you ever asked the Holy Spirit to help you choose a gift for someone? Do you call that 'commercialism' if you buy someone a gift that you feel led to give?
Quote If you tore holly and mistletoe down, why do they remain? God made holly and mistletoe, this is not a stronghold, it is a plant. If used, it is used to decorate with, not used to honor a pagan god. Therefore, it is nothing to tear down since it was never a stronghold for me.
Quote It is a lie that Dec 25th is Christ's birth. Probably so, but Christmas is a celebration of a story, not just a birth and the story is true, not a lie.
Quote The stories that are told to children about Santa are lies. Only if you tell the kids that he is real…if you tell them that he is not real, then it is not a lie.
Quote
If you have torn these things down, why do they remain?They don't remain with me but they remain with you because they control you to not do things.
Quote Rather, you ENDORSE, CELEBRATE, POPULARIZE, ADVERTISE, these pagan customs. You simply put a stamp of “Christianity” on them. No, I celebrate Christian customs. My customs do not honor a pagan god. I am not a closet wiccan but there are some who put up a Christmas tree to fit in with their family and to hide the fact that they are a witch or satanist in reality. If what Christians do is really pagan, then the witches and satanists wouldn't be using them as a front to cover up what they really think. They would use them or decorate them differently. It is the pagans that use Christian customs as a disguise to their paganism. Christians don't use Christian customs as a disguise. You don't seem to realize that there is a difference between what is a pagan Yule tree and what is a Christian Christmas tree. The pagans do know the difference. Read their blogs. Their intent, focus, emphasis and purpose is different.
Quote
As I think I've said before, this comparison doesn't really fit, unless the pagans were doing this in a specific way on a specific date and then the Hebrews imitated them on that day. But they didn't do this.Here David, since you want an example of two altars built on the same day, one for Baal and the other for God…both sacrificing an ox and both groups invoking their god/God to bring fire, both groups with a prophet/prophets, and only one having a true God.
1 Kings 18:22Then Elijah said to the people, “I alone am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal’s prophets are 450 men. 23“Now let them give us two oxen; and let them choose one ox for themselves and cut it up, and place it on the wood, but put no fire under it; and I will prepare the other ox and lay it on the wood, and I will not put a fire under it. 24“Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, He is God.” And all the people said, “That is a good idea.”
25So Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one ox for yourselves and prepare it first for you are many, and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.” 26Then they took the ox which was given them and they prepared it and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon saying, “O Baal, answer us.” But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they made. 27It came about at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, “Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened.” 28So they cried with a loud voice and cut themselves according to their custom with swords and lances until the blood gushed out on them. 29When midday was past, they raved until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice; but there was no voice, no one answered, and no one paid attention.
30Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD which had been torn down. 31Elijah took twelve stones according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.” 32So with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he made a trench around the altar, large enough to hold two measures of seed. 33Then he arranged the wood and cut the ox in pieces and laid it on the wood. 34And he said, “Fill four pitchers with water and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood.” And he said, “Do it a second time,” and they did it a second time. And he said, “Do it a third time,” and they did it a third time. 35The water flowed around the altar and he also filled the trench with water.
Elijah’s Prayer
36At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. 37“Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again.” 38Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, He is God; the LORD, He is God.” 40Then Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; do not let one of them escape.” So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
This sums up the difference between what Christians do on Christmas and what pagans do on Yule. Many of the same things happen but they honor two different gods. The main thing is to not honor the wrong god with your customs and traditions but in all things do them as unto the true Lord.
Quote you have spread and expanded those customs on that day and simply added the lie that it is Christ's birth! Please show me where I have said that Dec. 25th is the actual day of Christ's birth. I don't recall any educated Christian saying that, it is just the day that has been set aside to celebrate the truth that Christ was born and the story that goes with it. Get beyond your misconceptions and tear down your stronghold here David. Stop trying to heap guilt on Christians who celebrate true events that preach the gospel of Christ. Many have come to hear the gospel during these seasons. If they are not against the gospel, they are for the gospel…
Mark 9:38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40“For he who is not against us is for us. 41“For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
At the very least regarding Christians celebrating Christmas and Easter, I believe that the Lord would say something like this:
“Do not hinder them, for there is no one who will celebrate a miracle (virgin birth, resurrection) in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40“For he who is not against us is for us.Let it go David, just let it go. Christians celebrate in Jesus name.
Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2012,01:27) LU, my question: Why did the earliest Christians not feel great about celebrating Jesus birth? Why did they shun the idea? Were they wrong to do so?
David,
Please provide the quotes and the sources for these opinions. Maybe the context will give some indication as to why.Thanks!
Quote I know that you don't have a Christmas tree tradition For many years I did, actually. Then, I had to make a choice. After much research, I decided paganism should not mix with godly worship.
Quote A Christmas tree is merely a decoration to Christians to brighten the holiday, it is not something that is worshiped or used to honor a pagan god.
Although i can't be certain, my guess is, many israelites said the golden calf is “merely” something used to help in the “festival to Jehovah.” They were deceiving themselves. And calling it a festival to jehovah didn't help either. They died.Quote Please show me where I have said that Dec. 25th is the actual day of Christ's birth. I don't recall any educated Christian saying that,
True, its just what the majority of (uneducated) “Christians” are taught as youths, along with Santa clause being real.Quote At the very least regarding Christians celebrating Christmas and Easter, I believe that the Lord would say something like this:
“Do not hinder them, for there is no one who will celebrate a miracle (virgin birth, resurrection) in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40“For he who is not against us is for us.And here is precisely what I think jesus would say:
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and celebrate your birthday? And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Whatever the case, we know that many people who think they are “Christians” and who think they are following Christ, are really upsetting Christ.
I am fine with “letting it go” as you say. I know Christmas is too fun and too important a tradition for some.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2012,13:48) Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2012,01:27) LU, my question: Why did the earliest Christians not feel great about celebrating Jesus birth? Why did they shun the idea? Were they wrong to do so?
David,
Please provide the quotes and the sources for these opinions. Maybe the context will give some indication as to why.Thanks!
Sure.but, I think it is a well established fact that the earliest Christians refused to celebrate his birth and had reasons for doing so.
First, some questions to think about as we look at history:
“Questions:
1. Why do you think the early Christians refused to celebrate birthdays (including Jesus birthday)? There is no record of Christians celebrating Jesus' birth for hundreds of years. Why did they refuse to do so? (I can provide a string of quotes saying they didn't, if you like, showing that the early Christians regarded them as a practice for the pagans) They didn't just neglect to do so. They purposefully avoided celebrating them. My question to you: WHY? Why do you think? And DO YOU THINK THEIR REASONS ARE UNIMPORTANT? WERE THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS WRONG IN THEIR THINKING? IF SO, WHY?I wonder why if the early Christians celebrated birthdays, they somehow lost the day of Jesus birth? If they kept birthday observations at all, in the tiniest degree, you have to know they would observe their saviors birth, right? Yet, for some reason, they didn't. I mean, if they did, we'd know the date, wouldn't we? Yet, no one does.
It is interesting to note that while the New Testament is clear about the specific time of certain holy days such as Passover (Matthew 26:17-20) and Pentecost (Acts 2:1), it never mentions the date, nor even the precise month, of Jesus' birth (see Matthew 1 and Luke 1;2:1-20). Nor does it ever specifically endorse the celebration of birthdays.
Furthermore, there is no recorded instance of any of the apostles or other early Christians celebrating the birth of Christ.
No early church writer endorsed the observance of birthdays by Christians, nor are they ever listed in the early observances of the Christian church.2. “ALL scripture is …. beneficial for teaching, for setting things straight.” (2 tim 3:16,17)
My second question to you: Why do the only two accounts of birthdays in the Bible (Pharoah and Herod) both involve bloodshed of God's servants? If all scripture including those scriptures are beneficial for teaching, what do we learn from them? Why does the Bible present birthdays in such a negative light? It is not just a coincidence that the only birthdays mentioned involved bloodshed. Looking at history, we see the same. So my question to you is: If the Bible presents birthdays this way, why disregard it? Are those accounts not part of the “all scripture” that is beneficial for setting things straight?
As well, if the very day of Jesus' birth is deliberately left out of the Bible, doesn't that fact tell us something? IF BIRTHDAYS SHOULD BE CELEBRATED, WHY DID GOD LEAVE THE DATE OF HIS OWN SON’S BIRTH OUT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE? Who’s birth was more important or more worthy of celebration? Yet, while being commanded to memorialize his death, no mention of celebrating his birth or no help in doing so. Why?3. Yes, lots of things are pagan. Lots of things have idolatrous roots. Birthdays are one of them. The birthday observance was common in many polytheistic cultures. Idolatrous rites were performed in honor of the patron god of each particular birthday, and birthdays of mythical gods like Saturn and Apollo were celebrated.
If you think the quotes are wrong and the customs or origins are wrong, I ask you why the birthday cake? Why the candles? Find a source that explains it in another way.
Over and over again in the references that I am looking at, I see that the early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because of associating it with idolatry. Over and over again I see this. The Bible clearly condemns idolatry. (1 cor 6:9,10; Eph 5:5)
My question to you is: HAS GOD’S MEMORY FADED? WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF SUCH THINGS? God saw first hand where this celebration came from the the trail of blood that followed it. Is it just “innocent fun” to God? What do you think?4. There is no scripture that says: “Birthdays are a no no.” Yet, the earliest Christians did not seem divided on this. It didn't seem to be a matter of conscience to them, but it seemed clearly wrong, something they all avoided, as a group. Other than the apostate thinking that was foretold, what has changed?
Birthday celebrations are rooted in idolatry and they have left a trail of blood. Faithful first century Christians would not have felt like joining in a custom so darkly presented in the Bible and so gruesomely celebrated by the Romans. Today, sincere Christians realize that the Bible accounts about birthdays were among the things written for our instruction. (Rom 15:4)
Jesus and the apostles foretold and apostasy. Many things changed.
“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ. . . . In the next 300 years this attitude began to change, and in 354 A.D., the Bishop of Rome declared December 25 to be the anniversary of the birth of Christ.”–Frontier, Dec, 1981
“The early Christians,” states Professor Ferguson in his book The Religions of the Roman Empire, “did not celebrate the birthday of Jesus; it was unrecorded.” The World Book Encyclopedia explains: “The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”–Vol. 3, p. 416.
“December 25 is a Christian festival and is observed as the anniversary of the birth of Christ. In early times this day was not one of the feasts of the Christian Church. In fact, the church fathers frowned upon the celebration of birthdays and thought them a heathen custom.”–New Book of Knowledge (1978), Vol. 3, p. 289.
According to the Encyclopedia Judaica, “the celebration of birthdays is unknown in traditional Jewish ritual.” Similarly, historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190)
States Dr. John C. McCollister, a Lutheran minister, in his book The Christian Book of Why: “Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus—for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s) was a custom of the pagans.”WHY DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS VIEW BIRTHDAYS THIS WAY?
Why did the early Christians view birthday celebrations as “a custom of the pagans”? Well, birthday observance was common in many polytheistic cultures. Idolatrous rites were performed in honor of the patron gods of each particular birthday, and birthdays of mythical gods like Saturn and Apollo were also celebrated.
The Encyclopedia Americana (1991 edition) states: “The ancient world of Egypt, Creece, Rome, and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles.” Authors Ralph and Adelin Linton reveal the underlying reason for this. In their book The Lore of Birthdays, they write: “Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honoured their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope.”
This direct connection with astrology is a cause of great concern to any who avoid astrology because of what the Bible says about it.–Isaiah 47:13-15
“The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. . . . Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . Originally the idea was rooted in magic. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.”—The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp. 8, 18-20.
“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
It is no wonder that The Imperial Bible Dictionary comments: “The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”—(London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225.
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia agrees by saying Jews of Bible times “regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . . . , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the day on which the party was born.” (1882, Vol. I, p. 817)
Idolatry is the worship of false gods, something that the early Christians would never take part in. The Bible clearly condemns idolatry. It says that idolaters will not inherit God’s kingdom.–1 Cor 6:9,10; Eph 5:5 (Also see 1 Cor 5:9-11; 10:14)
So it would appear that the early Christians rejected the birthday celebration because it is rooted in idolatry. The words ‘pagan and ‘heathen’ which will be used quite often basically mean ‘idolatrous.’THE BIBLE SHEDS SOME LIGHT
Over and over again, we see that the early Christians didn’t celebrate birthdays because they considered them a pagan custom, but can we learn anything about the birthday celebration from the Bible?
The Catholic Encyclopedia, quoting Origen Adamantius of the third century says: “Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicing over the day on which they were born into this world below.”–(New York, 1911), Vol. X, p. 709
Dr. R. S. Conway explains: “The great theologian Origen, early in the third century several times repeats a remark which he says he took from one of his predecessors, that no just man or Christian saint had ever kept a birthday, his own or anyone else’s. It was only evil persons like Pharaoh or Herod whose birthday celebrations were mentioned in the Scriptures. This shows pretty clearly that if he had ever heard of such a festival as Christmas he repudiated it entirely.”–Ancient Italy and Modern Religion
Even though most people today regard it as an innocent custom, the Bible does not paint a positive picture of this tradition. The only two birthdays the Bible does mention were for rulers who were enemies of God–Pharaoh and Herod. And each celebration included an execution, so that the guests could gloat over the death of the one who had displeased the king.
In the first instance, Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, (18th century B.C.E) executed his chief baker. (Gen 40:2,3,20,22) The Egyptian ruler did so during the feast because he had grown indignant with his servant.
In the second instance, Herod Antipas, the immoral ruler of Galilee in the 1st century C.E. beheaded John the Baptizer as a favor to a girl whose dancing at a party had pleased him.–Mat. 14:6-11
These are the only two birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible. Is it just coincidental that they are mentioned and that both were for persons not having God’s approval? Or could it be that God deliberately had these details recorded in his Word, which he says is “beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight”? (2 Tim. 3:16) At the very least it can be said that these two accounts Biblically put birthday celebrations in a bad light, as a practice of those estranged from God.
However, the two Bible accounts of birthday celebrations are not as unique as it may first appear. The ancient Jewish historian Josephus re
veals other instances of the practice of birthday executions for entertainment.
For example, some occurred after Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 C.E., when 1,000,000 Jews perished and 97,000 survived to be taken prisoner. En route to Rome, Roman general Titus took his Jewish captives to the nearby seaport of Caesarea. Josephus writes: “While Titus remained at Caesarea, he celebrated his brother Domitian’s birthday with great splendor, putting over 2,500 prisoners to death in games with beasts and flames. After this he moved to Berytus [Beirut], a Roman colony in Phoenicia, where he celebrated his father’s birthday by killing many more captives at elaborate exhibitions.”—The Jewish War, VII, 37, translated by Paul L. Maier in Josephus: The Essential Writings.
So not only are birthday celebrations rooted in idolatry, but they have left a trail of blood. Faithful first-century Christians would not have felt like joining in a custom so darkly presented in the Bible and so gruesomely celebrated by the Romans. Today, sincere Christians realize that the Bible accounts about birthdays were among the things “written for our instruction.”–Rom. 15:4
Even though the Bible does not contain a specific prohibition against birthday celebrations, it does indicate that it is not proper to partake in just any celebration regardless of its reason or nature. (Ex 32:1-6; 1 Pet 4:3; 1 Cor 10:20,21)WHAT CHANGED?
“Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
Frontier, a publication of Frontier Airlines, observed: “To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ. It was sacrilege to even suggest that a Divine Being had a birthday. . . .In the next 300 years this attitude began to change, and in 354 A.D., the Bishop of Rome declared December 25 to be the anniversary of the birth of Christ.”–Dec. 1981.
If the early Christians considered it “unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday,” then what happened? As Frontier says, “In the next 300 years their attitude began to change.”
In fact, in the next few hundred years, they changed a lot of things. This apostasy had been foretold by Jesus and the apostles.Summing up:
–It’s a custom originated by worshippers of false gods.
–Nowhere does the Bible say to celebrate birthdays.
–Nowhere do we see the early Christians celebrating birthdays
–Nowhere does God give the impression we should celebrate birthdays, including his Son’s whose birth date is not given.
–In the Bible only two birthdays are mentioned and they were for Evil rulers who executed the righteous at those celebrations.David,
you said:Quote And here is precisely what I think jesus would say: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and celebrate your birthday? And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Do you realize that you have just judged ALL Christians that celebrate Christmas as the story of Jesus' birth to be those that Jesus never knew and that Jesus would tell them to get away from Him?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2012,14:12) Annie,
I think we have to go with our convictions. I do not share your conviction that Christmas and Easter are wrong. We are commanded to preach the gospel and Christmas and Easter are the two most attended days that people go to church. Many un-churched people attend church at that time as well as choir performances, etc. that might otherwise not go and hear the gospel preached. The seasons are filled with the gospel story. You claim that they are imitations of the real thing and I say they are celebrations of actual events in the Bible. The feasts mention the Messiah, Christmas and Easter identify the Messiah. The devoted, unbelieving Jews still celebrate the feasts and miss Jesus. I think it is great to celebrate the Jewish feasts if that is what you want to do but to judge those who celebrate Christmas and Easter as doing something evil is downright wrong and you place a heavy burden on those that celebrate. I considered all of these arguments a few years ago and they almost took my joy away. I believe a religious spirit can be behind all the judging. It all seems like the attitude that the Pharisees had. I wish you would realize that there is another perspective. God turns all things for good for those who love Him…He replaces bad with good. If we went around in fear that you want to generate about doing something that pagans would do then we can't even cut some flowers and put them in a vase. I will not be controlled by the fear that you want to bring, Annie. You can just keep it. I will hold fast to my convictions and be led by the Holy Spirit when He leads me to celebrate freely Christmas and Easter along with Christians all over the world…these celebrations can be about preaching the gospel and that is a command. Sure there are those in the world that do not celebrate like Spirit led Christians do but instead worry about gift giving and end up getting drunk about it. If you are led by the Spirit, you will give gifts that are given and received in love. I have been led to give wonderful gifts at Christmas time, like a puppy for my newly widowed mother who tells me over and over what a wonderful present that was. This year I made her a gift and she has gone on and on about it. My kids who were home got only one gift from us but appreciated it so. Gift giving and celebrating and all that we do are to be Spirit led. I'm done giving gifts just out of obligation. It is very freeing to give gifts as led by the Spirit. I truly enjoy giving gifts that are so enjoyed by others. Sometimes gifts are just a jar of gourmet popcorn, a plate of cookies or something small like that. People appreciate just being thought about. Gifts don't have to be big.I think it is a shame that you want to make people feel guilty for worshiping Jesus as their Lord and Savior and celebrating His birth as well as His resurrection on Christmas and Easter. Christians are to love others not condemn. I'm sure that satan would love for people to take Christ out of Christmas and Easter. That seems to be what you what you are doing. While you pray for me, you might consider asking the Lord if there is a religious spirit that drives you to condemn the majority of Christians all over the world over spreading the gospel through celebrating the story of His birth and resurrection at Christmas and Easter. You place a very unnecessary burden, imo. The gospel has specifically been told in my home on these holidays…the activities of Christmas and Easter that we partake in tell us who the Messiah is and that isn't mentioned in the feasts.
Please lets leave it at that…agree to disagree. You don't need to be corroborating about me with your insults with other members here. That is gossip and tickling itching ears and not what we are to do to those who also seek to follow Jesus (or anyone else for that matter).
May you receive God's richest blessings,
Kathi
Hi Kathi,
You are wrong in thinking I am trying to make you feel guilty about worshiping Christ. I do not condemn you nor do I judge you or other Christians for keeping these holidays, as I myself did the same for 30 years and felt the same way you do now. I know how much I love Christ and want to please Him and I truly believed in my heart (as you do) that I was doing this by keeping these holidays, so why would I question your love for Him, or cast doubt upon your worship of Him just because you keep these holidays? I wouldn't. If I condemn you then I also condemn myself. By pointing out what God's Word says about these two particular holidays is a condemnation of the celebration of the holidays themselves, not of you. Nothing is being said towards you personally, but at and about these two holidays alone. The truth of scripture condemns these two holidays not me! If you are being convicted of guilt, as I was, it is not from me but from the truth of the scriptures themselves. All I have done is pointed them out to you. Please don't kill the messenger!I just wanted to share with other brothers and sisters in Christ, what I learned from Him, because of their love for him also and out of love IN Him and for no other reason. I know exactly how you feel as I felt the same way, as you do now, for years. All I did was point out the real truth about these holidays according to scripture and the fact that they are not what God wants us to do in worship of Him, again according to scripture. I, personally didn't accuse you of anything, especially of having a religious spirit.
Please read Deut.12. They were told to destroy everything pagan and do according to the LORD in the place of His choosing. Notice in verse 28 how He says, “…when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God.
The truth is found in scriptures and if you compare the scriptures to the truth of the actual holidays (not what you consider them to be) of Easter and Christmas, the holidays themselves, their dates and the customs associated with them can not be found in the very scripture used to explain them, thus leaving a lot of questions as to their actual truth in regards to the truth of scripture. One of the main questions – how do these holidays identify Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah? What I found out was that the holidays don't, as He Himself said the only proof to His true identity would be 3days and 3 nights in the grave. No matter how you look at how the holiday of Easter is celebrated and taught, you can not come to 3 days and 3 nights as described in the Bible. God called the light day and the darkness night. Thus a day is 12 hours and a night is 12 hours, the two added together give us 1 FULL DAY. So He meant 3 FULL DAYS in the grave. Notice how He said, 3 nights and 3 days. He wanted there to be no mistake that there would be three 24 hour periods in the grave. So, if you are trying to tell someone, who has no idea who the savior is, that Yeshua/Jesus is the savior, and they ask for proof, what is your proof, since they don't know his saving love yet? How can you say He is identified in Easter when the actual 'traditional' celebration Christians themselves keep of Easter as well as the days leading to the actual day of 'Easter' itself, doesn't completely agree with the actual scripture they use to describe this holiday? They teach His last supper and arrest on Thursday evening, His trial, death and burial on Friday and His resurrection on Sunday morning. How can you say the holiday 'Easter' identifies the true Messiah when the actual 'Easter' story as celebrated doesn't prove He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights as He himself stated was the ONLY proof that would be given as to His TRUE identity a
s Messiah? No matter how hard you try, according to how the holiday is actually celebrated, there is no way you can get that He was in the grave a full 3 days and 3 nights as He said He would be. This is a very important thing, not to be disregarded, as the Pharisees themselves put a guard of their own at His grave, just so His statement couldn't be proven, as that alone would be able to tell His true identity!However, the true story as recorded in scripture, which coincided with the celebration of Passover (not the made up one of Easter), proves His TRUE identity. You can not tell the story of Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection with out telling the Passover story, as Him being the Passover Lamb and our final sacrifice for sin, is the fulfillment of Passover. Especially since now we have the modern technology of NASA, as God's months are determined by the moon not the sun as in our calendar today, they can and have proved that Passover that year was on Wednesday, not any other day. And the Bible itself proves that He wasn't actually born in or around December as Christmas describes. So, actually you are wrong when you say that these holidays show His identity. They clearly do not as the scripture used to describe these two holidays both prove otherwise.
That's all I am trying to do by pointing out the discrepancies of these two holidays with actual scripture itself, including the scripture to describe the holidays themselves. They are not in alignment with His Word no matter how we try to argue the fact that they are. And there is no comparison of these two holidays to Purim and Hanukkah, as you and others have tried to do. As far as the celebration of Purim and Hanukkah are concerned, even though not commanded by God, these holidays are not, nor were they ever, celebrated on the date of a well known pagan holiday, nor do they use the customs of any pagan holiday to worship God on these holidays. If they had, they too would have gone against scripture and our LORD definitely would not have celebrated them as recorded in John 10 when He celebrated Hanukkah. There is a big difference!
As this is an open forum for all to see, as well as you, all I said was that as long as you and others who think its okay to celebrate these holidays, still refuse to see the truth about what SCRIPTURE has to say about these two particular holidays that are taken from pagan days and customs of worship, then continuing is senseless.
YHWH Shalom
Hi Annie,
Quote I do not condemn you nor do I judge you or other Christians for keeping these holidays
Maybe you should reread your posts here.Quote As this is an open forum for all to see, as well as you, all I said was that as long as you and others who think its okay to celebrate these holidays, still refuse to see the truth about what SCRIPTURE has to say about these two particular holidays that are taken from pagan days and customs of worship, then continuing is senseless. I think you have a hard time rightly dividing the word of God. I was reading something a 'closet pagan' had written. She said that she put up Christmas trees to disguise the fact that she was a pagan so that her family would think that she was a Christian like them. The pagans know the difference. They know that the Christmas tree is not the same as their Yule tree. They know that Christians worship another God, not their god. I could see your point if they thought that Christians were honoring their gods with their similar customs but they don't, not from what I can tell. Also, the church meets on the first day of the week, not because of honoring a sun god but because of the resurrection being on the first day of the week. That began way before Constantine made it official. Do you think that you should rebuke the Lord for rising from the dead on the same day that the sun god is worshiped? That is an example of a holy event happening on the same day as a pagan event. Go figure. It didn't stop God. He does not work around the pagan days, they did not control Him and why should they then control us?
As far as the three days and the three nights go, I understand. I figure that it is possible that Jesus died on a Thursday, though. I also think that it is possible that the saying 'three days and three nights' is a Hebrew idiom not to be taken literally. I also read somewhere that they did not have a zero in their numbers. The early church fathers did not mention anything about a second sabbath in their writings. From what I read, they write of a Friday passion and there was no controversy on that amongst the early church fathers. Maybe I just haven't read about it, idk. I really don't think it is a detail to cause one to discredit the church. We are told that He rose on the first day of the week and that is the day that I celebrate. The Bible doesn't say which day of the week that He died. It comes down to how it can be counted and people count it in different ways, for instance, a part of a day is considered one day by some and only a 12 hour day is considered one day by others.
Perhaps the difference between how you perceive all of this and how I perceive this is that you seem to look at the small details whereas I look at the bigger picture. Idk. In other words, to use an English idiom, “Some people can't see the forest for the trees.” A difference in perception is the root of this type of discussion, imo.
I think we need to agree to disagree because continuing this seems to be fruitless.
Blessings,
KathiQuote you have just judged ALL Christians that celebrate Christmas as the story of Jesus' birth –LU
Christmas (the holiday on Dec 25?) IS NOT THE STORY OF JESUS BIRTH!
So, if I am guilty of judging that as being the case, then so be it.
It's not the day of his birth.
The story of Christmas is a mixture of lies and paganism.
I consider these indisputable facts.My point which you perhaps missed was that there would be many who believed strongly that what they were doing was right, (saying “lord, lord”) when in fact, it wasn't right. And in fact, they were enemies of Christ. And enemies of truth, and clean worship.
I think there is a good reason the earliest Christians, those that knew Jesus, those that came after Jesus, including for the next few hundred years, didn't celebrate his birthday.
I think they were avoiding paganism. Birthday celebrations customs of today (candles, the birthday cake), these didn't just occur to someone some day. They have meaning, and that meaning is connected to their pagan customs where they originated. [[Candles aren't intrinsically wrong. Cake isn't intrinsically wrong, so don't say I'm saying that.]]
LU, looking at history, did the earliest Christians celebrate his birth?
If not, why do you think that is?Also, how do you think this relates to the apostasy that Jesus (and Peter, Paul and John) foretold?
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