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Quote We can choose to find the bad in things and see how that can justify our separation from the Church or we can seek to understand beliefs and customs with a spirit for understanding realizing that the church will not be perfect. We can trust the Lord and ask Him to lead us to the church that He wants us to seek unity in and minister in our gifting. Or, we can get all religious spirited and leave the church implying that Jesus has failed as the Head of His church. Even in a church that is imperfect we can grow in strength of character and sharpen one another to the knowledge of the fullness of Christ. There is not going to be a perfect church this side of heaven but some churches are much more inline with the Spirit of God than others.
Kathi, I don't really think that the Church is a Building of People. Yes, it is MADE UP OF some people in that Building, but because God is Spirit, A believer in God can be ANYONE ANYWHERE. I dont feel they need to go to Church to be that.. I certainly dont feel they need to celebrate the pagan festivals to be anything. GOD SAID HIMSELF in Jeremaih, and many other places, DO NOT DO what they do. God said NOT TO cut down trees and decorate them – couldnt be more plainer than that – So it is GOD we are to obey, not Man.
Quote Last night I visited a church in the area for their annual conference, a different church than the regular one that I attend, and I was probably hugged by about 100 sisters in the Lord…none of them did I know. The worship time was lively and spirit filled, the message was about seeking brotherhood with the many different denominations that preached the Word of God-the one where Jesus is a capital 'G' God with the Father and their Spirit. Among the Pastors who spoke, there was a Baptist, a Pentecostal, and a Messianic Rabbi…all loving and building up one another's ministries and encouraging those in attendance with the teaching that the Lord had given them to teach. Isn't God's love and love for other Humans enough? Isn't going to Church every Sunday just a way to seek attention? I mean.. AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH – Was Noah a part of the worlds ways? NO He was NOT.
Do you really want to be a part of those who are vulnerable to Spirits going through their churches such as the Kundalini Spirit? What Church do you go to? Just a denomination will do.
AOG?? Didn't I hear mention of Bethel sometime. Or was that someone else?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2012,08:09) To all, Santa is a man the Catholics regard as a Saint. There are a number of rumors and stories about him.
I actually heard recently that the Catholics claim there really is no St. Nicholas. I also heard that Satan was always referred to as Old Nick. Don't know how true it is but I thought that was pretty interesting.Shimmer,
I suggest that you do a Bible study on what a church is and let God teach you. I don't know what you are carrying on about but I do know that you have not experienced a strong Godly church for you to be suggesting all those things. I am very thankful to have the privilege and freedom to regularly meet with a congregation that appreciates the church and all that it offers.You might study the churches in Revelations that were doing it right. People with religious spirits can find the bad in anything.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 10 2012,17:59) I don't know what you are carrying on about
Quote:Shocking footage of one of the worst “invasions” of false spirits that the church has ever seen.
Proof that she has been invaded by counterfeit spirits on a worldwide scale.
This is Part One of a documentary tracing this massive invasion – and showing the terrible impact it has had.
Please share it with your friends.Leaders and movements involved:
prophetic, apostolic, todd bentley, lakeland revival, rick joyner, morningstar, toronto blessing, new mystics, john crowder, ihop, mike bickle, patricia king, false revival, the river, bob jones, john paul jackson, sid roth, chuck pierce, bill johnson, randy clark, peter wagner, dutch sheets, pentecostal, charismatic.Quote (annie @ Mar. 09 2012,06:27) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2012,08:09) To all, Santa is a man the Catholics regard as a Saint. There are a number of rumors and stories about him.
I actually heard recently that the Catholics claim there really is no St. Nicholas. I also heard that Satan was always referred to as Old Nick. Don't know how true it is but I thought that was pretty interesting.Satan is called old Nick, which is believed to be derived from the Old Norse word skratte, meaning “a wizard, goblin, monster, or devil.”
Annie,The Turkish government wants his relics(skeleton) as the claim it was stolen from them in the 11th Century. A rather interesting claim as Seljuk Turks briefly conquered the area from the Byzantine Empire at that time.
I am going to say he existed.
Shimmer,
Videos/documentries can't always be trusted to portray the whole truth. Have you been to these places to witness this first hand. Someone came on HN and said that they were at one of those places and said that it wasn't like the video portrays it. Be careful what you believe and don't judge when you do not have all the facts. There are always two sides to everything. We shouldn't be tearing down other churches especially without going to them first for their side of the story WITH A SPIRIT OF UNDERSTANDING. God does not give us a spirit of condemnation.And, no, I have never been to Bethel but I have heard good things about it from people who have been there and I have listened to some mp3's of their sermons. I have not heard anything that would be outrageous like the video displayed. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. I know that satan would make it his ambition to tear down good churches. There are a few names on that list of people that I certainly have only experienced a loving, Godly spirit from them over the air waves like Sid Roth and Patricia King and Bill Johnson. Others I have heard and seen some very questionable things but then again, I do not know first hand. Some of the names I do not know anything about. We need to ask the Lord for discernment and trust that He, as Head of His church, will discipline them and guide them if they are on the wrong path. Also, we are not to look for man to be perfect or they can become an idol.
The pastor that had the conference that I went to this week mentioned something about the 'barking' that went on in Toronto and he rebuked that and said that sort of behavior was an idol in and of itself. There was healing that took place there also in Toronto and he encouraged that.
This pastor also talked about some of the rumors going around about some well known pastors. He actually talked to the pastors himself and told us not to believe the rumors. People can say anything, take anything out of context, and then discredit a Godly man. It happened to Paul. This is one of the schemes of satan.
If some leader of a church or ministry is being discredited, it is always a possibility that satan is trying to attack their ministry because it is glorifying God.
This is really off topic though.
Quote David,
The Bible doesn't say anything about there being relatives to stay with.Lightenup, True,
but it does say where he was going and why he was going.
Maybe it's just me, but I have this perception that family was larger and more important back then and that people relied on family more. And I know that if I didn't have a lot of money, as is suggested by the Bible, and I was going to my hometown, where do you think I would want to stay? With family, obviously.
Of course, we don't know, but it's not unreasonable to suggest that he would want to stay with family if visiting where he was from. Is it?Quote The Bible doesn't say anything about there being relatives to stay with. It is likely that where they stayed was in a cave with some animals. Also, there was no mention in the Bible that Mary had to ride a donkey. I've been pregnant five times and if my husband, if he was a carpenter and didn't make me a donkey cart, I would be kinda ticked However, they may have had to hurry to Bethlehem with no time to make one. This is left up to our imagination. The manger scene depicts the shepherds and the magi all together which, although both groups visited the baby, the magi came at a later time. Does that make the manger scene bad…I don't think so. The general idea is that the babe was in a manger with Mary and Joseph and the shepherds and magi came to visit Him by supernatural guidance. Ya, could have been a cave. Except, it says there was no place in the “lodging room/guest room” Maybe there were caves that had guest rooms, totally possible.
If you look at excavations, and pics of Jewish houses back then, you will see than many of them had food troughs (mangers) on the lower level where the animals and kitchen were. In the upper level was the “lodgingroom/guest room” other bedroom area. People had animals in and around their houses back then, because they had no walmarts.
I agree with much of what you say. there is a weird misconception that the “manger” (food trough) was the building. It's the way people speak about it. Even you seem to convey this idea sort of:
Quote The general idea is that the babe was in a manger with Mary and Joseph
The babe was in a food trough. I doubt Mary and Joseph were. Please google images. You will understand. Although many were likely wooden, those of course didn't survive, but stone ones did. It's a food trough.Quote People can choose to be pagan hunters and paganize what God has made good, i.e. a tree, sex, eggs, bunnies…the list goes on and on. Lightenup, no one here believes bunnies are “intrinsically” bad. INTRINSICALLY!
No one here believe eggs are INTRINSICALLY bad. No one here is saying that!What people here are asking is what I often ask and which never really ever gets answered:
Quote Lightenup, here is the one question I would like you to answer: Is it right to imitate things that God has specifically said he hated?
Quote David,
What passage says that God hates dying eggs or eating chocolate bunnies?Lightenup, what passage is there that says God would hate it if I microwaved a puppy?
NONE.
But there are scriptures that speak of kindness, etc, right? There are BIBLE PRINCIPLES, right?And in this case, there are scriptures that show he hates it when we learn the way of paganism, or adopt their practices.
Quote 1 Cor 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
Well, I guess it's lawful for me to dress like Hitler every day, and ask that people heil me. It's lawful for me to DRESS IN WHITE HOODED SHEETS, and walk around with a pitch fork. You do realize when it says “ALL” things, it's not referring to things that specifically go against Bible principles. It's referring to matters of conscience. Maybe for some this is a matter of conscience. And maybe for some, its fun today to imitate the klu klux clan. But for many, that would be in bad taste.But you say: “I have the freedom, I can do whatever I want. No scripture says I can't imitate them. God made white sheets!”
Yes, Lightenup, But GOD also remembers what they did, and thinks it is disgusting, so why imitate it?
WHY IMITATE SOMETHING GOD HATES, JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU CAN?
Quote If you do something that is not profitable then don't do it David, but if others like to decorate eggs, don't be the pagan hunter with a religious spirit and push your religious spirit of things on them. Realize that they have the freedom to do such things. No one I know colors eggs in honor of some pagan goddess…good grief! I almost never do…until someone says that what they are doing is fine, Biblically speaking.
If we are going to make crys of freedom, then I will just say I have the freedom to speak to others about what I think God likes and what he hates.
People always think ignorance saves them. The truth is, 90% of people who put a tree in their house on that day haven't a clue why they do it, other than tradition.
But my point is GOD KNOWS WHERE THE TRADITION BEGAN. God actually saw those things. To God, it's like they just happened. It was like YESTERDAY. And here today, we have some imitating those things.
Why would anyone want to do that?
FUN.
TRADITION.
I CAN BECAUSE I AM FREE TO?Are any of these good reasons to imitate something God specifically hates?
David,
I am not imitating pagan practices.
I never have dyed eggs with blood, I have never carved a hunk of wood and made it an idol…lighten up!
God speaks against the religious spirit, why are you embracing that?Col 2: 20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
Be free from judging others over a chocolate bunny, etc.
I am not going to go on and on with you about your judgmental views and further entertain this religious spirit that moves you into anger over colored eggs and chocolate bunnies and decorated trees. This is ridiculous!!
You should be angry with your own religious spirit that is controlling you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2012,09:15) People can choose to be pagan hunters and paganize what God has made good, i.e. a tree, sex, eggs, bunnies…the list goes on and on. We can choose to find the bad in things and see how that can justify our separation from the Church or we can seek to understand beliefs and customs with a spirit for understanding realizing that the church will not be perfect.
We can trust the Lord and ask Him to lead us to the church that He wants us to seek unity in and minister in our gifting. Or, we can get all religious spirited and leave the church implying that Jesus has failed as the Head of His church. Even in a church that is imperfect we can grow in strength of character and sharpen one another to the knowledge of the fullness of Christ. There is not going to be a perfect church this side of heaven but some churches are much more inline with the Spirit of God than others. Last night I visited a church in the area for their annual conference, a different church than the regular one that I attend, and I was probably hugged by about 100 sisters in the Lord…none of them did I know. The worship time was lively and spirit filled, the message was about seeking brotherhood with the many different denominations that preached the Word of God-the one where Jesus is a capital 'G' God with the Father and their Spirit. Among the Pastors who spoke, there was a Baptist, a Pentecostal, and a Messianic Rabbi…all loving and building up one another's ministries and encouraging those in attendance with the teaching that the Lord had given them to teach.
I choose to NOT look through the lens of the pagan hunters but instead:
Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.When you seek to follow Jesus command to be a part of His body and minister in your gifting, He will lead you to where you need to be. A religious spirit will lead you away from the church, imo, and have all sorts of 'religious' reasons why to do that. Satan seeks to divide and weaken the church and many are leaving the church because of this.
If you don't like how you have celebrated Christmas or the Resurrection Day, change how you celebrate it. At Christmas time, many celebrate it right with the Lord as their focus. Maybe many here haven't experienced that but that is what I have experienced and that is how my husband and I have raised our family. Going to church on Christmas Eve to sing Christmas carols and sing 'Silent Night' while everyone holds a lit candle and take communion together…that is just part of Christmas to me. In the morning, we begin the day with my husband reading the Christmas story around the manger scene and singing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus. We give gifts to people and receive gifts and enjoy doing that. The friends that I have do similar things. I do realize that to many, Christmas is just another excuse for getting drunk and family fights and all sorts of things that have nothing to do with Christ but that is not because there is a holiday around the story of Christ but because of the wicked hearts of men.
If anyone wants to continue to look through the lens of the pagan hunters then you are missing the good in things. A religious spirit could paganize all sorts of things. Get rid of this religious spirit and be cleansed. Trust the Lord that He is still the head of the church. Babylon is where you will find the religious spirits but some creep into the church and proceed to tear the church down. Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the religious spirit than get rid of the church?
Hi LightenupI don't understand why you accuse others of having a religious spirit because they don't follow the man made traditions of Christmas and Easter but choose instead to follow scripture.
Are you referring to Legalism? Legalism is actually the following of the law because you think the law will save you. As Paul explained to the Galatians, the only way you are saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. The law was given so we would know exactly what sin is, but it in itself doesn't save us. Under the law we are condemned to death if we break it. Since we are not perfect and all sinners and fall short of the glory of GOD, with out the salvation of our LORD, Jesus Christ, we are doomed under the law. But if you follow the law because you want to show the LORD you love Him (not because you think it saves you) doesn't mean you have a religious spirit!
I think Paul's use of the word 'under' throws people off. For instance, all countries have laws. If you are a citizen of that country, you are 'under' the law of that country. When you are found guilty of breaking that law, you are now condemned to whatever punishment the law states you are to receive for breaking that law because you are 'under' the law of that country. Well, the same applies to GOD's law. The only difference is that now, because of our faith in Jesus Christ as our Messiah, we are no longer 'under' the law, meaning when we break the law we are no longer 'under' the condemnation of that law. The rules and instructions haven't changed, the only thing that has changed, for those that have given their lives to Jesus Christ through faith, is the punishment for the breaking the law. As we are no longer 'under' the law because we are now 'under' the blood of Jesus, we are now not condemned when we break the law as long as we repent from our sins and surrender our lives to Him. In other words, if you kill someone intentionally, under the law of most states in the US, and are found guilty, you are condemned to life in prison (in some states its death) But then say someone comes along and takes your punishment for you and goes to jail instead of you. You are now free from the condemnation of the law (imprisonment or death), but if you are guilty of breaking the law again, the condemnation stands again. So you see, the law itself never went away just because you didn't pay the price and someone else did, just the punishment for breaking it went away, the law itself still stands. That is the most awesome thing about our salvation through Jesus Christ, He paid the price for OUR breaking of the law so we don't have to, and He did it ONCE for all, for all time! Those who do not acknowledge Jesus' salvation in faith are still 'under' the law and condemned to death still as only faith in Jesus saves you from the condemnation of the law.
I also celebrated Christmas and Easter for years. Most of my friends still do. But that doesn't change the way I feel about them, as I love them still and when they question me about my beliefs, I tell them in love not condemnation. To me it isn't a matter of celebrating Christmas and Easter differently but not celebrating them at all!
During personal study of the Word His Holy Spirit led me to the truth of these man made traditions. Namely, that they were against all He has taught us. He first showed me though that loving Him and following Him (keeping His Commandments) go together. Search your word and you will see that are always connected. You can't say you love Him without following His Word. (And His Word expressly tells us that by taking pagan things that were used in pagan worship and now do those same things to worship Him is something He HATES, so if you are still doing them, you are not following His Word!) IJohn2:3-6 says, “And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we
keep his commandments. He who says, “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him; he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”
And Jesus didn't follow man made traditions, but followed GOD's law!I also don't see where anyone has said they have rejected the Church and implied that Jesus has failed as the Head of His Church. HIS Church is HIS body, not a building filled with people. It IS the people! Satan's main goal is to lead the BODY (the people) away from GOD. He does this by using false teachers to introduce things that are not of God. When people follow things that aren't of GOD they are then not following His Commandments. Without following His Commandments but following false teachings instead, you are then obviously NOT obeying His Commandments, and as John says, then the truth is not in you, but by following His Word the love of God is perfected. So basically, following His Word is the way to perfect His love. Since Jesus taught everything He taught from the “Old Testament” (as the new hadn't even been written yet!) which is stated by Him, as the law, and the prophets, we should be making a conscious effort to follow these Commands.
I have a question for you. You say you went to this church and there were leaders there from different denominations of the Christian Church and these leaders “encouraged those in attendance with the teachings that the Lord had given them to teach”. My question to you is, after attending this conference did you check their teachings against the Word of GOD to make sure that their teachings truly were given to them from GOD? After all, you obviously didn't know any of them personally, so how do you know they taught the Word unless you checked? You said their was a Messianic Rabbi there, and I know that Messianics believe in keeping the law, do you think this Rabbi has a religious spirit because he follows the law?
You say that religious spirits can paganize anything and that religious spirits creep into the church and tear it down. You hit the nail on the head! Do you not see how the religious spirit of Christmas and Easter paganize the word of God (as they mix the word of God with unclean pagan things) and lead His people from following truth? Yes Jesus is still the Head of His Church and still teaches the truth through scripture (God's religion, not mans) to those who seek it. We need to get GOD's people out of those churches that teach false things according to God's Word, so they can rightly follow the Head of the True Church and not a religious spirit sent by GOD's adversary, the devil. By leaving a particular church denomination that teaches falsely is not leaving the True Church of Christ but is actually following Him as the Head.
''All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16,17
I know that some of this is for another topic but I felt that it pertained to what you said in your post.
Shalom!
Annie,
Quote Since we are not perfect and all sinners and fall short of the glory of GOD, That is not what is written.
What is written is we all have fallen short of the glory of God but now a way to be made perfect apart from the Law is here. That way is through faith in Jesus Anointed.
I am not imitating pagan practices–lighten up
Then, why the eggs and rabbits (both symbols of fertility) on that particular day? You could have randomly picked anything: pickles and doves, or bananas and porcupine.
WHY those things?
Or, why the tree? Why the lights? Why the exchanging of gifts? Why that particular date?
You could have randomly chosen any day, right? And had any other symbols, right? These things certainly weren't from the bible, right?Pagans did it first.
Many today choose to copy them.Lighten up, you should lighten up. You may do whatever you like. But if you say X is good, and the bible says X is bad, this is a forum for discussion. You have to not take this so personally.
I'm now going to go cut some holes out of sheets and wear a pointy white hat and light a cross on fire and march through the streets because I have that freedom. God created sheets and there is nothing wrong with sheets. And god created fire and there is nothing wrong with fire. and I am free to do whatever I want. Where are those matches?
David,
If you believe eggs and rabbits are pagan objects then to you they are. I was not taught such things.
On Easter I have payed a search and find game for eggs. It did not have anything to do with fertility.
I was taught the Easter Bunny was a cuddly creature that brought eggs and candy. Nothing about fertility there as well.
I was taught that Samson's mother prayed for fertility.
I do like to eat eggs and some see rabbits as pets. I also like to pray.
Quote (annie @ Mar. 10 2012,16:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2012,09:15) People can choose to be pagan hunters and paganize what God has made good, i.e. a tree, sex, eggs, bunnies…the list goes on and on. We can choose to find the bad in things and see how that can justify our separation from the Church or we can seek to understand beliefs and customs with a spirit for understanding realizing that the church will not be perfect.
We can trust the Lord and ask Him to lead us to the church that He wants us to seek unity in and minister in our gifting. Or, we can get all religious spirited and leave the church implying that Jesus has failed as the Head of His church. Even in a church that is imperfect we can grow in strength of character and sharpen one another to the knowledge of the fullness of Christ. There is not going to be a perfect church this side of heaven but some churches are much more inline with the Spirit of God than others. Last night I visited a church in the area for their annual conference, a different church than the regular one that I attend, and I was probably hugged by about 100 sisters in the Lord…none of them did I know. The worship time was lively and spirit filled, the message was about seeking brotherhood with the many different denominations that preached the Word of God-the one where Jesus is a capital 'G' God with the Father and their Spirit. Among the Pastors who spoke, there was a Baptist, a Pentecostal, and a Messianic Rabbi…all loving and building up one another's ministries and encouraging those in attendance with the teaching that the Lord had given them to teach.
I choose to NOT look through the lens of the pagan hunters but instead:
Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.When you seek to follow Jesus command to be a part of His body and minister in your gifting, He will lead you to where you need to be. A religious spirit will lead you away from the church, imo, and have all sorts of 'religious' reasons why to do that. Satan seeks to divide and weaken the church and many are leaving the church because of this.
If you don't like how you have celebrated Christmas or the Resurrection Day, change how you celebrate it. At Christmas time, many celebrate it right with the Lord as their focus. Maybe many here haven't experienced that but that is what I have experienced and that is how my husband and I have raised our family. Going to church on Christmas Eve to sing Christmas carols and sing 'Silent Night' while everyone holds a lit candle and take communion together…that is just part of Christmas to me. In the morning, we begin the day with my husband reading the Christmas story around the manger scene and singing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus. We give gifts to people and receive gifts and enjoy doing that. The friends that I have do similar things. I do realize that to many, Christmas is just another excuse for getting drunk and family fights and all sorts of things that have nothing to do with Christ but that is not because there is a holiday around the story of Christ but because of the wicked hearts of men.
If anyone wants to continue to look through the lens of the pagan hunters then you are missing the good in things. A religious spirit could paganize all sorts of things. Get rid of this religious spirit and be cleansed. Trust the Lord that He is still the head of the church. Babylon is where you will find the religious spirits but some creep into the church and proceed to tear the church down. Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the religious spirit than get rid of the church?
Hi LightenupI don't understand why you accuse others of having a religious spirit because they don't follow the man made traditions of Christmas and Easter but choose instead to follow scripture.
Are you referring to Legalism? Legalism is actually the following of the law because you think the law will save you. As Paul explained to the Galatians, the only way you are saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. The law was given so we would know exactly what sin is, but it in itself doesn't save us. Under the law we are condemned to death if we break it. Since we are not perfect and all sinners and fall short of the glory of GOD, with out the salvation of our LORD, Jesus Christ, we are doomed under the law. But if you follow the law because you want to show the LORD you love Him (not because you think it saves you) doesn't mean you have a religious spirit!
I think Paul's use of the word 'under' throws people off. For instance, all countries have laws. If you are a citizen of that country, you are 'under' the law of that country. When you are found guilty of breaking that law, you are now condemned to whatever punishment the law states you are to receive for breaking that law because you are 'under' the law of that country. Well, the same applies to GOD's law. The only difference is that now, because of our faith in Jesus Christ as our Messiah, we are no longer 'under' the law, meaning when we break the law we are no longer 'under' the condemnation of that law. The rules and instructions haven't changed, the only thing that has changed, for those that have given their lives to Jesus Christ through faith, is the punishment for the breaking the law. As we are no longer 'under' the law because we are now 'under' the blood of Jesus, we are now not condemned when we break the law as long as we repent from our sins and surrender our lives to Him. In other words, if you kill someone intentionally, under the law of most states in the US, and are found guilty, you are condemned to life in prison (in some states its death) But then say someone comes along and takes your punishment for you and goes to jail instead of you. You are now free from the condemnation of the law (imprisonment or death), but if you are guilty of breaking the law again, the condemnation stands again. So you see, the law itself never went away just because you didn't pay the price and someone else did, just the punishment for breaking it went away, the law itself still stands. That is the most awesome thing about our salvation through Jesus Christ, He paid the price for OUR breaking of the law so we don't have to, and He did it ONCE for all, for all time! Those who do not acknowledge Jesus' salvation in faith are still 'under' the law and condemned to death still as only faith in Jesus saves you from the condemnation of the law.
I also celebrated Christmas and Easter for years. Most of my friends still do. But that doesn't change the way I feel about them, as I love them still and when they question me about my beliefs, I tell them in love not condemnation. To me it isn't a matter of celebrating Christmas and Easter differently but not celebrating them at all!
During personal study of the Word His Holy Spirit led me to the truth of these man made traditions. Namely, that they were against all He has taught us. He first showed me though that loving Him and following Him (keeping His Commandments) go together. Search your word and you will see that are always connected. You can't say you love Him without following His Word. (And His Word expressly tells us that by taking pagan things that were used in paga
n worship and now do those same things to worship Him is something He HATES, so if you are still doing them, you are not following His Word!) IJohn2:3-6 says, “And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says, “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him; he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”
And Jesus didn't follow man made traditions, but followed GOD's law!I also don't see where anyone has said they have rejected the Church and implied that Jesus has failed as the Head of His Church. HIS Church is HIS body, not a building filled with people. It IS the people! Satan's main goal is to lead the BODY (the people) away from GOD. He does this by using false teachers to introduce things that are not of God. When people follow things that aren't of GOD they are then not following His Commandments. Without following His Commandments but following false teachings instead, you are then obviously NOT obeying His Commandments, and as John says, then the truth is not in you, but by following His Word the love of God is perfected. So basically, following His Word is the way to perfect His love. Since Jesus taught everything He taught from the “Old Testament” (as the new hadn't even been written yet!) which is stated by Him, as the law, and the prophets, we should be making a conscious effort to follow these Commands.
I have a question for you. You say you went to this church and there were leaders there from different denominations of the Christian Church and these leaders “encouraged those in attendance with the teachings that the Lord had given them to teach”. My question to you is, after attending this conference did you check their teachings against the Word of GOD to make sure that their teachings truly were given to them from GOD? After all, you obviously didn't know any of them personally, so how do you know they taught the Word unless you checked? You said their was a Messianic Rabbi there, and I know that Messianics believe in keeping the law, do you think this Rabbi has a religious spirit because he follows the law?
You say that religious spirits can paganize anything and that religious spirits creep into the church and tear it down. You hit the nail on the head! Do you not see how the religious spirit of Christmas and Easter paganize the word of God (as they mix the word of God with unclean pagan things) and lead His people from following truth? Yes Jesus is still the Head of His Church and still teaches the truth through scripture (God's religion, not mans) to those who seek it. We need to get GOD's people out of those churches that teach false things according to God's Word, so they can rightly follow the Head of the True Church and not a religious spirit sent by GOD's adversary, the devil. By leaving a particular church denomination that teaches falsely is not leaving the True Church of Christ but is actually following Him as the Head.
''All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16,17
I know that some of this is for another topic but I felt that it pertained to what you said in your post.
Shalom!
Hi Annie (David too),Annie said:
Quote I don't understand why you accuse others of having a religious spirit because they don't follow the man made traditions of Christmas and Easter but choose instead to follow scripture. That is not why I accuse others of having a religious spirit. It is because you teach that God hates it and that is according to your persuasion yet you cannot prove with scripture that something is evil simply because it is a man made tradition or that it is similar to something that pagans do.
I believe this is a false teaching and dangerous. That is what someone with a religious spirit does, among other things.There is a VAST difference between what Christians do and what pagans do but there are also similarities. You want to claim some are evil based on the idea that pagans do certain customs, but then why not include all the things that pagans do that are similar to what Christians do or what God's people in the OT have done. In other words here are some similar things that pagans and Christians/Hebrews do or have done.
1Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Tell the sons of Israel to raise a contribution for Me; from every man whose heart moves him you shall raise My contribution. 3“This is the contribution which you are to raise from them: gold, silver and bronze, 4blue, purple and scarlet material, fine linen, goat hair, 5rams’ skins dyed red, porpoise skins, acacia wood, 6oil for lighting, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, 7onyx stones and setting stones for the ephod and for the breastpiece. 8“Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them. 9“According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.
Wood decorated with gold and brought into the home:
Exodus 25:10“They shall construct an ark of acacia wood two and a half cubits long, and one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high. 11“You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and you shall make a gold molding around it. 12“You shall cast four gold rings for it and fasten them on its four feet, and two rings shall be on one side of it and two rings on the other side of it. 13“You shall make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold.This ark was to be in the 'house of the Lord.'
So have a fit about this why don't you? How dare the Lord instruct them to take wood and decorate it with gold and place it in His house. Surely He knew that pagans were going to cut down a tree and decorate the wood with gold and place it in their house. I am speaking facetiously here.
How about incense, Annie/David, is the use of incense a practice among the pagans? Does God speak about the use of incense in His house? Yes.
How about building a temple/sanctuary, Annie/David, did the pagans build temples for their pagan gods? Did God instruct His people to build a temple for Him? Yes.
How about altars, Annie/David, do the pagans build altars to sacrifice upon in honor of their gods? Did God instruct His people to build altars to sacrifice upon in honor of Him? Yes.
Do you see what I am saying Annie/David? Pretty soon the religious spirits will claim that we are not to worship our God because the pagans worship their gods and we are not to imitate the customs and traditions of the pagans. Do you see how ridiculous this spirit can be?
The pagans worship the wooden, carved, decorated tree, the Christians do not. The pagans worship the creation…the sun, the moon, etc. The Christians appreciate the creation but worship the Creator. Do you see the vast difference here?
Somehow you have managed to equate the cutting of a tree down, carving an image in it, decorating it with gold and silver to bring into the home in order to bow down to it, to a tree decorated with ornaments, not carved into an image and brought into a home to appreciate the decoration of it but certainly not to bow down to it. A religious spirit uses religious reasoning to place a burden on other Christians with false teaching. You think that
you are lovingly correcting Christians but I think you are bringing false teaching to burden the Christians with. You are exaggerating the whole idea and portraying the customs are equal but miss the whole point that the pagans use these customs in their worship of creation. Christians might use similar customs but are NOT using them in worship of creation.I know that I haven't addressed all of your issues but this is really the main issue regarding this thread.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2012,01:52) David, If you believe eggs and rabbits are pagan objects then to you they are. I was not taught such things.
On Easter I have payed a search and find game for eggs. It did not have anything to do with fertility.
I was taught the Easter Bunny was a cuddly creature that brought eggs and candy. Nothing about fertility there as well.
I was taught that Samson's mother prayed for fertility.
I do like to eat eggs and some see rabbits as pets. I also like to pray.
Good post Kerwin!
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