Is observing christmas and easter ok?

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March 22, 2008 at 4:45 am#84517

david

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Are we to change the names of the days of the week as well? Tuesday comes from Tyr, Wednesday from Wotan, Thursday Thor, Friday Frey, Saturday Saturn. I suppose we should get rid of the months of March and June as they connect with Mars and Juno? I suppose that Thor and Hercules are fallen angels or demons also? Astarte was a phoenecian goddess of love and fertility, in Jewish mythology, She is referred to as Ashtoreth, supposedly interpreted as a female demon of lust. Other have associated her with the Greco-Roman Aphrodite/Venus. No one calls Venus a demon or anything other then myth. I don't know of anyone still worshipping Astarte in any of her assumed guises. I don't view our pagan ancestors as demon worshipers, primitive and ignorant yes, but devil worshippers no. That some of their names and traditions got carried forward to us is only natural and I don't think anyone even associates Astarte with Easter much less offers worship and praise. The Easter Bunny is total fantasy and is not even associated with Christ much less evil. It is just a tradition of spring like a may pole. If any real demon has found it's way into our religious holidays it would be Mammon and our want for materialism in spiritual matters and that would happen no matter what day we picked.

I have heard this argument about 12 times. It is absurd. At least, from a biblical standpoint.

John 15:19: “You [Jesus’ followers] are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.” (Thus true Christians are no part of the mass of human society that is alienated from God. They care for normal human activities, but they shun attitudes, speech, and conduct that are characteristic of the world and that conflict with Jehovah’s righteous ways.)

(1 Corinthians 5:9-10)
“In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world.”

I realize it's not talking about paganism, but still, notice the principle here–we must live in the world. Yet, we are not of the world, celebrating as it does, copying it, especially things rooted in paganism. Yet, we must live in the world, as Paul writes. So, if we decide to start calling tuesday by another name, that's going to cause real confusion and isn't balanced.
What is balanced, is to avoid paganism where we can. ESPECIALLY when one tries to connect it with something as meaningful as Jesus death. It is outrageous!

And you may not be viewing those who don't worship Jehovah as demon worshippers, but do you understand the meaning of scripture:

(1 Corinthians 10:19-21) “What, then, am I to say? That what is sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No; but I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons. 21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.”

Really, there are two choices, or at least according to the Bible there are. You may do as you wish. But don't lie about it, or put a ribbon on it and say it's scripturally ok. That is dishonest.

david

March 22, 2008 at 4:55 am#84518

david

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So when you say God hates them (Pagans) you are saying that before Christ he hated all non-jews and after Christ just the non-believing, non jews. I don't think so.

Play with the word “pagan” all you like. It's not even in the Greek scriptures. What is in the Greek scriptures is the idea of worshiping gods other than Jehovah, and idols. Jehovah obviously hates this.

Yet, you think to imitate and incorporate something Jehovah hates into your worship is fine and well?

The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: “A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . . The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—(1913), Vol. V, p. 227.

In the book The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, we read: “What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, . . . as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. . . . Such is the history of Easter. The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character. The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now.”—(New York, 1943), pp. 103, 107, 108; compare Jeremiah 7:18.

When the Israelites called it a “festival to Jehovah” as they were worshipping the golden calf, Jehovah wasn't fooled by that you know.

Changing the name of the Saturnalia or the birthday of mithras to “Christmas” and bringing in other things God hates does not make it ok.

March 22, 2008 at 5:23 am#84521

david

Participant

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Ashtoreth, supposedly interpreted as a female demon of lust. . . . That some of their names and traditions got carried forward to us is only natural

Easter, named after the goddess Ashtoreth (Astarte, Greek), incorporates fertility rites and symbols, such as rabbits and Easter eggs. Any who have been involved in such practices would do well to follow the good advice of 1 Samuel 7:3:

“If it is with all your heart you are returning to Jehovah, put away the foreign gods from your midst and also the Ashtoreth images, and direct your heart unswervingly to Jehovah and serve him alone, and he will deliver you.”

(Judges 2:13-14)
Thus they abandoned Jehovah and took up serving Ba′al and the Ash′to·reth images. At this Jehovah’s anger blazed against Israel . . .”

Somehow, this festival still seems to honour Easter (ashtoreth/astarte) It's symbols are still those of fertility. And it's very name….

Why have anything to do with such things in view of their past, in view of Jehovah's words?

March 22, 2008 at 4:37 pm#84554

Lightenup

Participant

Hi David,
We are on two sides of the fence on this. Perhaps concern should not so much be whether something we do was associated with an idol presently or at some point in history for that focuses our attention on how things are or were used for the bad. Instead, our focus should be on how things can be used or thought of for the good. Things can edify one another. The same things can offend. On any day of the week some people will focus on the bad and some will focus on the good. You seem to be focused on the bad regarding Easter celebrations and others are focused on the good of Easter celebrations. Personally, I would rather let my mind dwell on the things that are good.

Right this very moment my 15 year old is doing a “face painting” ministry at our church's “spring fling”. He paints things like flowers and butterflies and crosses on little kid's faces while presenting the gospel to them. Now, the same thing could be done for bad. Some place else possibly a face painter could be painting demonic signs and teaching devil worship. Now lets say that, at this “spring fling” where there is a trailer parked and my 15 year old is inside with other Christian teens and they are doing the face painting thing and sharing the gospel of Christ but there are those “concerned believers” outside of the trailer boycotting the whole idea with their picket signs because someplace somewhere at sometime, devil worshippers painted peoples faces and taught those people that they should worship the devil. Which group is leading others for good and focused on the good of the situation and which group is focused on the bad of the situation and trying to convince others to focus on the bad as well. My answer: the boycotters are focused on the bad and those painting faces for Christ are focused on the good.

NASU

Phil 4:8-9

8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9 The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
NASU

Now let's look at this passage:
1 Cor 10:23-33

23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. 25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake; 26 FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?

31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; 33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

In the above passage in 1 Cor 10 there are two types of people. One has the freedom to eat meat and no need to investigate it's history as to whether it was sacrificed to idols or not. The other feels it necessary to inform the other that it was sacrificed to idols. The first one has freedom because he focuses on the good that “FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.” The other focuses on the bad and that it was “sacrificed to idols”.

God does not seem to me to be condemming either one here but it appears that the one with the freedom to eat is the stronger one because he is asked to sacrifice his freedom that he is BLESSED to have for the conscience of the weaker person.

So, I happen to see eggs and bunnies as something God has blessed us with as well as Easter celebrations where I will gather with a couple of thousand people to praise God in singing and enjoying cooperate worship and focusing on Jesus and that He rose again. I am not going to be the one walking around the building holding boycott signs which say things like “God hates what you do on Easter because somewhere at sometime people worshipped something called ashtoreth”. No, I choose to keep my focus on Jesus face and not on ashtoreth's image tomorrow and always. The boycotters would truly NOT edify the believers who worship in freedom. If the boycotters conscience is disturbed then they should come and worship and give it a chance. Perhaps the good of the celebration would penetrate their hard heart. Maybe they would find that freedom also. Freedom is much better than bondage.

David, bunnies and eggs were made during that first week of creation and God declared them “good”. Enjoy the good and take your focus off the bad. It will free you!

March 22, 2008 at 7:58 pm#84570

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2008,04:37)

NASU

Phil 4:8-9

Now let's look at this passage:
1 Cor 10:23-33

David, bunnies and eggs were made during that first week of creation and God declared them “good”. Enjoy the good and take your focus off the bad. It will free you!

Lightenup! You want to make good what God considers bad? I don't think that that is the right attitude to have. Of course I can't tell you what to do, but in my eyes it is all pagan and God hates it.

Peace and Love Mrs.

March 22, 2008 at 8:36 pm#84572

david

Participant

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You seem to be focused on the bad regarding Easter celebrations and others are focused on the good of Easter celebrations.

There should be no bad to focus on connected with the memorial of Jesus death.

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Things can edify one another.

Edify means to build up, to strenghten someone.
But if you mean good can cancel out the bad, how does that compare to this scripture:

For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””

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Personally, I would rather let my mind dwell on the things that are good.

Are we to close our eyes to such things or to “separate” ourselves from such things? (See scripture above for answer.)

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because someplace somewhere at sometime, devil worshippers painted peoples faces and taught those people that they should worship the devil.

Your illustration would be appropriate if you were painting demonic signs on your kids. Why would you do that. Sure, today, they're common symbols, but they were and are still understood to be symbols of Satan. You say it's fun. But why? Why connect the two?
There is nothing wrong with paint. But if you can paint anything, why choose to pick an image associated with badness and make that your symbol.
It's like saying: I'm going to pick the nazi symbol and make it my symbol. The Nazi's have no control over what I do. I'm going to associate the nazi symbol with Jesus. It's just a symbol that had a past, but that past is over and it's a nice pattern, right? And I like the colors. And one thing can edify the other, right? But why would you do that?

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My answer: the boycotters are focused on the bad and those painting faces for Christ are focused on the good.

“I'm painting these nazi symbols on children “for easter,” so it's all good.”
The boyscotters perhaps understand that connecting good and bad in such a way isn't anything God approves of.

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Phil 4:8-9

Right. Problem is, things like: “Jesus birthday is Dec 25th” isn't true, it isn't honorable, etc. It is in fact a lie.

Easter; Ishtar (h is silent) or Ashroreth or Astarte or the other 8 names of this false god isn't something that should ever be connected to Jesus sacrficial death.

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FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.

I've heard this before too. So, wars and Satan and suffering are good–because apparently, the earth is Jehovah's.
This is wrong. While the earth is Gods…

“Earth itself has been given into the hand of the wicked one;”–Job 9:24
“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.”–1 john 5:19

And we are not to embrace that wickedness, invite it into our homes, put bows and ribbons on it and call it “good.”
We are to be “no part of the world” Satan's world. Yes, the earth is God's, but he's allowing wickedness for a time to see what independence from him leads to.

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Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

One might say they are doing something for God's glory, but it means little. Remember when the Israelites made and worshiped the golden calf and called it a “festival to Jehovah” as though that would make it alright. Well, it didn't. Many died that day.

Now, when it says “whatever you do” it obviously doesn't mean things that go against God's will. Yes, whether eating or drinking or whatever you do that is in line with God's will, do all things for God's glory.

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One has the freedom to eat meat and no need to investigate it's history as to whether it was sacrificed to idols or not. The other feels it necessary to inform the other that it was sacrificed to idols. The first one has freedom because he focuses on the good that “FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S, AND ALL IT CONTAINS.” The other focuses on the bad and that it was “sacrificed to idols”.

Right. So the point is: Eggs are fine. Nothing wrong with bunny rabbits.
NOthing intrinsically wrong with these things. and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the meat that was to be offered to the idols (provided it is bled).

But, would you take that meet that was to be offered to the idol and you yourself make a picture of the idol in the meet? Would you then eat that meet every year on a certain day that I don't know, you named after that idol?

There is of course nothing wrong with eggs themselves or anything like that. But if you choose to write: “I love Satan” all over these eggs, then there is something wrong with the eggs, isn't there? You're not going to say: “These are great eggs. I love the decoration.” Or if you stamped the name of a false god (let's say “easter”) on the eggs, you're not going to say: “These are great Ishtar eggs,” are you? (“h” is silent)

Maybe you are. Maybe you do.

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So, I happen to see eggs and bunnies as something God has blessed us

He also blessed us with the metal used to make knives, but they can be used for good or bad. We must choose how we use things.

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I am not going to be the one walking around the building holding boycott signs which say things like “God hates what you do on Easter because somewhere at sometime people worshipped something called ashtoreth”.

Nor would I ever do anything like that. You're free to worship Satan or do whatever in this world you like. But just don't tell me that Satan is good.

(I'm using the word Satan a lot just as an example of something we can all agree on, as being bad.)

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Freedom is much better than bondage.

What you call bondage, I would call: “whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute,”
I don't see “easter” (Ishtar) as honourable, pure, etc.
The memorial of Jesus death is a completely other matter.

(John 4:23)
“Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.”

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David, bunnies and eggs were made during that first week of creation and God declared them “good”. Enjoy the good and take your focus off the bad. It will free you!

I can't help but think how free and how much movement you'd have travelling on a wide road, a broad road. Yet, we know what Jesus said about that, don't we? (mat 7:13)

And I don't disagree that eggs and bunnies are good. Water is good too. Vital in fact. But it can be used for wrong purposes, to torture people even.
Eggs and bunnies can be used for wrong purposes too, in false worship of false gods. This is wrong. And to imitate, adopt, or incorporate that false worship into what is to be true worship of the one and only God, is wrong.

david

March 22, 2008 at 9:46 pm#84576

Lightenup

Participant

Dear David,
Don't worry so much about these matters. We do not worship idols when we color the eggs or fill the eggs with candy. We are just making a decoration, we are not bowing down to it or preparing it for an idol. We are just looking for lost eggs in the yard, and still we are not bowing down to them when we find them. I am glad that you are not my judge. We may not agree on this but it would be good to be kind anyway. The egg bit is not part of our worship, it is simply coloring eggs and finding them. That's all. My kids enjoy it. If they didn't then we wouldn't do it, no big deal. It is okay for my kids to color eggs and decorate them. It can be fun for them but I understand it is not your type of fun.

The Pharisees made the road narrower than necessary and missed the message and apparently salvation.

It is immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, this is what amounts to idolatry. Not decorating and hiding eggs. Sheeeesh! If you are so burdened by this then give it to the Lord. He loves me and my kids and will guide us maybe differently than you.

March 22, 2008 at 10:17 pm#84579

TimothyVI

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 23 2008,09:46)

The Pharisees made the road narrower than necessary and missed the message and apparently salvation.

Very good point lightenup.

Tim

March 23, 2008 at 8:14 am#84606

Is 1:18

Participant

I have come to the conclusion that easter eggs and bunnies are at best commercial opportunism and a silly feature of an evolved christian celebration and at worst a blatant pagan intrusion into a christian observance. Either way I think they should be shunned. I'm a little cinical about the whole easter thing to be honest, to my mind we should either celebrate passover properly, the way early christians did or not do it at all. After all should observation/reflection of/on the central truth of the christian faith be an annual event? I think it should be something that christians dwell on constantly, incorporating it into thier daily life.

“Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.” (Jas 1:21)

Blessings

March 23, 2008 at 8:44 pm#84628

942767

Participant

I celebrate the birth and the resurrection of my Lord, but to partake in the commercialization of these holidays by teaching kids about Santa Claus or about bunnies that lay colored eggs and about Easter egg hunts is to support them in this, and I won't do this. Some Christians do not see this as a problem and they think of it as just having fun, but no, these are lies, and therefore, it is wrong.

I know David will say that the dates on which we celebrate Christmas or Easter or not the correct dates on which the events took place and I know that this is probably true, but it is not the date that we are celebrating but the event. We can just teach our children and our congregations that these dates are not the dates on which the events took place.

March 23, 2008 at 8:45 pm#84630

Lightenup

Participant

Hey ya'll,
There are many opinions but God looks at the heart. It might help to look at situations in the context of the other person but even then no one should judge others motives or be critical. Is your religious ideas making you more critical and judgemental or more loving of others? By the way a critical and judgemental spirit is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Gal 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
NASU

I enjoyed worshiping and lifting Christ's name in song with a couple of thousand people today as we sang about His marvelous sacrifice and His victory over death. I also was edified with the exhortation by a man of God who is involved in SCORE International. That organization spreads the gospel all over the world through the common vehicle of sports ministries. I am thankful for having that opportunity to meet with other believers even though we are not all on the same page yet. Someday though, I trust God for that. He'll have us on His page, not mine, not others but His.
God bless you all today!

March 24, 2008 at 4:51 am#84658

david

Participant

“The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate,” says Jeremiah 17:9.

There can be no better protection against self-deception than a heart that is wise and understanding and a conscience that is enlightened by the knowledge of God’s Word.
James wrote: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.” (James 1:14) If our heart gets enticed, it may, in effect, wave sin enticingly before us, making it appear attractive and harmless fun.

But such individuals are ‘deceiving themselves with false reasoning.’—James 1:22.
Our desperate heart may also look for ways to justify questionable conduct. We need to remember that the human conscience is not always reliable.
The mere fact that certain things do not bother our conscience is in itself no guarantee that our course is right. Think of Paul, who persecuted Christ’s followers. His conscience may not have bothered him at the time. Obviously, though, it had been misdirected. “I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith,” said Paul. (1 Timothy 1:13)

Only a healthy conscience properly trained by God’s Word can be a safe guide.

Is your religious ideas making you more critical and judgemental or more loving of others?

While Bible principles should make us more loving toward many, we are not loving towards babylon the great, or it’s teachings–things that God considers disgusting and horrible. We must “hate what God hates.” Yet, we should show love to the person, but hate the badness.

Consider these scriptures:
(Proverbs 13:20) He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he that is having dealings with the stupid ones will fare badly.
(1 Corinthians 15:33) Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.

Now, does following this principle make us more “critical” of people ”or more loving of others”?

I of course don't know anyone's motives for doing anything.
But when I think what my motives were for celebrating “easter” the way everyone does, they were:

1. Peer pressure (dont' want to be different, do we? It's just easier to go with the crowd.)
2. Fun
3. Tradition

My motives for deciding Christmas (and easter customs) weren't for me were:

1. A determination to represent the truth.
2. What does God want; or would God be offended?

For me, choice was easy and the self-deception was over. But I do understand the incredible difficulty in being different than your family and most everyone else.

david.

March 24, 2008 at 7:24 am#84670

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 24 2008,16:51)