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Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,18:44) How is it legalistic to say that Christmas falls on a pagan god's birthday?
Because you assume that those who celebrate Christ's birthday on that day are, in fact, celebrating this pagen god's birthday.For all we know, when we celebrate the 4th of July it could also be on a pagen god's birthday – should we not celebrate our Country's independence day because of it? This is ridiculous, as you can plainly see.
Who are these “god's”? Are they GOD'S at all? No! By rearranging your celebration of days dedicated to our God, you are giving the pagens god more power, in my opinion.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,18:44) I thought you were a truth seeker?
I say this through love…..These are the comments that will ruin your good work and your testimony, brother. You would be better to just stick to teaching and witnessing than to resort to belittling and accusations (your comment above is back-handedly accusing me of not being a “truth seeker” when you can plainly see by my contributions here that I am indeed a truth seeker…..).
KJ,
I appreciate your view, like so many here, that holidays are following after other “god's” and are completely “secular” in nature. That is your opinion. I have a different opinion. It doesn't make me less Christian to celebrate, and it doesn' make you more spiritual to not celebrate.One person consider's a day more holy to the LORD than the next…….
But to say that you don't judge those of us who celebrate would be a bit incorrect. While you are not “in your face” about it, as some here have been (even calling me a Devil worshiper), you are indeed casting judgement. It's almost the worst kind, in my opinion, because your judgements leave you feeling superior to those of us who are not yet enlightened OR those that in your probable opinion, are less of a Christian?
I don't know your heart, obviously, but I do know that because I celebrate Christmas, you assume I am acknowledging a pagen god and celebrating his birthday and not Christ's. You would be completely wrong in your judgement. I don't even know who this other guy is – let alone worship him.
As for all the commercialism and what other Christians do or don't do during Christmas, I can't say……our family consider's Christmas to be a holy day unto the LORD. We have very personal traditions whereby we honor Jesus. There is nothing pagen about our celebrations. If this holiday was instituted by the pagens, all I can say is that Satan is getting a black eye over it. As other's have shared, more people attend church on this day than any other. I, myself, have used Christmas as a way of reaching out and inviting other's in for the sole purpose of sharing the birth and gospel stories with them.
There are many gods. I'm sure if you continue your studies, you will find a reason not to have ANY DAY holy to the Lord because they are all taken. I'm sure there is a pagen celebration/birthday for the Seventh Day, our holy Sabbath, too. Shall we not celebrate and keep that day holy to the Lord because of it? It can go too far, brother. Knowledge sometimes leads one off the path into insanity. As Ken has always said, “Keep it spiritual, not legal” or something like that. In other words, love God, and love people. Don't be too hung-up on what the pagens are doing. They do not serve the only true God – we do!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 18 2007,11:01) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,18:44) How is it legalistic to say that Christmas falls on a pagan god's birthday?
Because you assume that those who celebrate Christ's birthday on that day are, in fact, celebrating this pagen god's birthday.For all we know, when we celebrate the 4th of July it could also be on a pagen god's birthday – should we not celebrate our Country's independence day because of it? This is ridiculous, as you can plainly see.
Who are these “god's”? Are they GOD'S at all? No! By rearranging your celebration of days dedicated to our God, you are giving the pagens god more power, in my opinion.
Not3,On the other hand, your statements show that you are angered. Typically, when people get “hot” about an item, it is because they are fighting against it. This can be right or wrong, depending on the circumstances.
In any case, the mythology of Mithras supposedly has many things in common with Yeshua. THAT is what bothers me.
You're comparison of July 4th is not a fair one. We are talking about setting aside a day to celebrate Yeshua's birthday when it is fairly certain that is not his true date of birth. Fair enough, so any day should do then since we don't know. The 4th of July has nothing to do with Yeshua.
But, it IS known that Dec 25th was historically celebrated as Mithras' birthday. Therefore, if we are aware of that, and are not at least a little concerned, you are saying that the origins don't matter. From http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa122397b.htm
The comparison of Mithraists and Christians is not coincidental. December 25 was Mithras' birthday before it was Jesus'. The Online Mithraic Faith Newsletter [no longer available] says:
“Since earliest history, the Sun has been celebrated with rituals by many cultures when it began it's journey into dominance after it's apparent weakness during winter. The origin of these rites, Mithrasists believe, is this proclamation at the dawn of human history by Mithras commanding His followers to observe such rites on that day to celebrate the birth of Mithras, the Invincible Sun.”But the actual choice of December 25 for Christmas was made under the Emperor Aurelian because this was the date of the Winter Solstice and was the day devotees of Mithras celebrated the dies natalis solis invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).
Mithraism, like Christianity, offers salvation to its adherents. Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from evil. Both figures ascended in human form, Mithras to wield the sun chariot, Christ to Heaven. The following summarizes the aspects of Mithraism that are also found in Christianity.
“Mithras, the sun-god, was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun. He was a savior-god who rivaled Jesus in popularity. He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil.”
– Pagan Origins of ChristmasAs I said though, my choice is my own. As the verse says, the days we observe are our own and we must be convinced. I am convinced that Dec 25 is not a day I will observe Yeshua's birthday.
Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 11 2005,16:09) Here is one place where you can find out about the pagan relics. Just click on the pictures.
As a truth seeker…..smile….. I have been reading more on this topic here.I found this old post. The link is very interesting, it has a lot of slanted views, but still very interesting. Have a look….
Also, a new member here had a question about the Pope, this link also has some interesting things to say about him.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 18 2007,11:04) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,18:44) I thought you were a truth seeker?
I say this through love…..These are the comments that will ruin your good work and your testimony, brother. You would be better to just stick to teaching and witnessing than to resort to belittling and accusations (your comment above is back-handedly accusing me of not being a “truth seeker” when you can plainly see by my contributions here that I am indeed a truth seeker…..).
Not3,I apologize if the statement offends you. I merely said it because a little research will show that Dec 25th started as a pagan god's birthday and was incorporated as the celebration of Yeshua's birthday.
Whenever I find something that I feel needs to be revealed, should I hide so as not to offend people? How would that do anyone but my own self any good?
And finally, the statement about you being a truth seeker was a reminder of why you are here. You have often stated that is what you are here for. Yet it displeases you when I reveal that Dec 25th had nefarious origins, and why I personally feel it is the wrong day to observe Yeshua's birthday. I am sorry if it offends you but I am not sorry for revealing the origin of celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th.
KJ,
Debating is passionate business. We can point fingers all day long as to who is being judgmental and who is angry – it doesn't benefit anyone, I guess. I've watched pages and pages of posts go by that are centered around this very thing. It takes our eyes off the prize, so forgive me for falling into that practice. Hopefully you know by now that I repect your opinon on matters.
The reason I brought up the 4th is because I was trying to show that there are many gods and I'm sure that every day we want to consider as good could be a pagen day. As far as Jesus' birthday goes, yes, celebrate it any day you wish (but be careful….it might be on a pagen day)!
Let's say you want to celebrate Jesus' birthday on September 12th, well, you better do some research and make sure no pagen god did anything on that day. See my point? The fact that Christmas is a pagen day makes no difference to me. All days could be pagen if you do enough research – every day could be a pagen gods birthday – there are many so-called “gods”. But we serve the true God. This is the freedom in Christ that I am finding offends many. I don't mean to be a stumbling block to anyone. Therefore, i believe I said my peace, and anyone researching these topics will find my $.02 here. I will end my opinion here and thank you for the chat! Have a great weekend, MandyQuote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,06:53) And finally, the statement about you being a truth seeker was a reminder of why you are here. You have often stated that is what you are here for. Yet it displeases you when I reveal that Dec 25th had nefarious origins, and why I personally feel it is the wrong day to observe Yeshua's birthday. I am sorry if it offends you but I am not sorry for revealing the origin of celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th.
Brother,Seeking truth is one thing, having a brother or a sister telling you that you are worshiping a pagen god if you celebrate a holiday is another. I do not worship pagen gods.
You may “personally feel that it is the wrong day” to observe Jesus' birthday on Dec. 25th and that is OK. But you don't need to tell other's that they are wrong just because they do not feel the same as you, or because they have made a different choice. In other words, there are no scriptures that guide us here, it is personal choice.
We don't know when Jesus' birthday really is. Pick a day and be happy!
I won't judge you if you pick March 29th, and you shouldn't judge me if I pick December 25th.Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 18 2007,11:23) KJ,
I appreciate your view, like so many here, that holidays are following after other “god's” and are completely “secular” in nature. That is your opinion. I have a different opinion. It doesn't make me less Christian to celebrate, and it doesn' make you more spiritual to not celebrate.
Did I say it did? No, I said I will no longer do so, and I revealed why. I did not accuse you of anything nor did I say I was more spiritual than you. That is totally how you read it. the only thing I questioned was about you being a truth seeker because you have certainly uncovered many other truths.Quote One person consider's a day more holy to the LORD than the next……. But to say that you don't judge those of us who celebrate would be a bit incorrect. While you are not “in your face” about it, as some here have been (even calling me a Devil worshiper), you are indeed casting judgement. It's almost the worst kind, in my opinion, because your judgements leave you feeling superior to those of us who are not yet enlightened OR those that in your probable opinion, are less of a Christian?
Do they? Christmas has not arrived yet. I have two children who have grown up with Christmas. Do I look forward to telling them I will no longer be celebrating Yeshua's birthday on that day? No way. Don't be so quick to cast your own view on me.Quote I don't know your heart, obviously, but I do know that because I celebrate Christmas, you assume I am acknowledging a pagen god and celebrating his birthday and not Christ's. You would be completely wrong in your judgement. I don't even know who this other guy is – let alone worship him.
I don't assume anything. I was revealing something I found and is quite evident and then told you why I will not observe Dec 25th. As I said, what you do is between you and God and you must be convinced in your own heart. If you have no issue with it, then all is well. But I cannot do the same. I do not judge others for doing whatever they feel lead to do or not do, nor do i hold them at a different spiritual level. To do so would be to assume that I don't have that pesky plank in my eye.Quote As for all the commercialism and what other Christians do or don't do during Christmas, I can't say……our family consider's Christmas to be a holy day unto the LORD. We have very personal traditions whereby we honor Jesus. There is nothing pagen about our celebrations. If this holiday was instituted by the pagens, all I can say is that Satan is getting a black eye over it. As other's have shared, more people attend church on this day than any other. I, myself, have used Christmas as a way of reaching out and inviting other's in for the sole purpose of sharing the birth and gospel stories with them.
Actually, more people attend on Easter Sunday, but perhaps Christmas time is next. But you are right, God can use any day regardless of the origins. As I've said, this is just a personal issue with me. I am trying to shed paganism from my walk, and this is something that i am convicted over. Some people who smoke are never convicted over it, some people who curse are not convicted over it. Your faith is meant to be personal.
Quote There are many gods. I'm sure if you continue your studies, you will find a reason not to have ANY DAY holy to the Lord because they are all taken. I'm sure there is a pagen celebration/birthday for the Seventh Day, our holy Sabbath, too. Shall we not celebrate and keep that day holy to the Lord because of it? It can go too far, brother. Knowledge sometimes leads one off the path into insanity. As Ken has always said, “Keep it spiritual, not legal” or something like that. In other words, love God, and love people. Don't be too hung-up on what the pagens are doing. They do not serve the only true God – we do!
Actually, if you'll research Jewish holidays, you'll find that there aren't any pagan ones associated with them. Some may have come AFTER they were established, but Judaism is much older than Christianity.Not3,
If you'll go back and look at my original post, I never said anyone was worshiping a pagan god by celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th. I just said that you would be celebrating a pagan gods birthday. But that is not quite accurate because if you celebrate your birthday on a certain day, there are millions of others who celebrate the same day, but you aren't celebrating theirs, are you? Just yours.
Anyways, I just don't like associating Dec 25th when I find out where it originated from, that's all. If it had merely coincided with Mithras' birthday that would be one thing, but Christmas was made into that day BECAUSE it was Mithras' birthday.
The Watchtower was exactly right! Quoting the December 1, 1904, issue we read on page 364: “Since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate– 'Christmas day'.”
****************************************I found this on the web while doing some research.
David, can you speak to this? Is this information from an old Watchtower publication? Maybe you would know? And if so, isn't this interesting? Thanks.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,14:58) So if you care to celebrate Christmas, then recognize that you are NOT celebrating Christ's birthday, but Mithras'.
Here you are judging those who celebrate Christmas in saying, “Well, you think you are celebrating Christ's birthday, but you are really celebrating this pagen gods birthday.” I do not agree with your judgement, and I do not agree that just becuase this pagen dude was born on Dec. 25th and Christians everywhere celebrate Christ's birthday on this day…..that we are NOT celebrating Christ, but indeed celebrating a false god. This Mithras “god” is no God to me at all.Yes, it is a personal choice. As such, we should not tell someone they are worshipping a false god on the day they choose to recognize Jesus' birthday.
OK, I'm out. I think we've beat this poor horse enough. Shall we let him go now?
God bless you brother as you search out truth. I learn from you, and hopefully you learn a little something from me? I encourage you to rid the pagen god worship in your life if you have any. I will support you through prayer and hope that you do the same for me.Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,07:09) Actually, more people attend on Easter Sunday, but perhaps Christmas time is next .
I guess that depends on where you get your facts from. Some say Christmas while other's say Easter.Tomato – Tomoto!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 19 2007,06:53) KJ, Debating is passionate business. We can point fingers all day long as to who is being judgmental and who is angry – it doesn't benefit anyone, I guess. I've watched pages and pages of posts go by that are centered around this very thing. It takes our eyes off the prize, so forgive me for falling into that practice. Hopefully you know by now that I repect your opinon on matters.
The reason I brought up the 4th is because I was trying to show that there are many gods and I'm sure that every day we want to consider as good could be a pagen day. As far as Jesus' birthday goes, yes, celebrate it any day you wish (but be careful….it might be on a pagen day)!
Let's say you want to celebrate Jesus' birthday on September 12th, well, you better do some research and make sure no pagen god did anything on that day. See my point? The fact that Christmas is a pagen day makes no difference to me. All days could be pagen if you do enough research – every day could be a pagen gods birthday – there are many so-called “gods”. But we serve the true God. This is the freedom in Christ that I am finding offends many. I don't mean to be a stumbling block to anyone. Therefore, i believe I said my peace, and anyone researching these topics will find my $.02 here. I will end my opinion here and thank you for the chat! Have a great weekend, Mandy
This summarizes my view pretty nicely. All days have different meanings to different cultures. And potentially everyday could be dedicated to one god or another.The early Christians agree with Kejonn. But I feel that mostly stims from the fact that Mithra worship was still active. It was public knowledge, therefore participating in any revelry that day showed your agreement.
Today, most people havent the foggiest Idea who Mithra is and nobody thinks Christians are agreeing or joining in with pagans. (well except those who are against Christmas because of their knowledge of history and feel celebrating it is evil)
I do think this is a liberty thing that Paul talked about….
Each feeling in his heart if a day is more important than another day.If Kejonn feels this way and was to go ahead and celebrate Christmas then this would not be good, because he would be doing something he feels is contrary to God on purpose.
If not3in1 celebrates Christmas then their is no harm and God could be worshipped without guilt. Because no ill intent of the heart is present.
This is the liberty given to the poor Gentiles who with out this liberty would have constantly been accidently breaking Jewish laws and customs everyday without understanding.
It is a matter of world view obviously. From one stand point christmas keeping looks a certian way and from another stand point it looks different it obviously isn't easy to change your position since it takes a life time to get where you are!
I have two points to make 1. origins are important
2.We who are born again are
not of this world.
The origins of this celebration are not Godly, they are not pure and therefore the holy spirit doesn't permit my involvement with them.
When we are born again I dont believe it is to return again to the same 'dogs vomit' feasts that the unbelievers cling to to inject meaning into their short and pain filled lives.
We have been given a new life. Everlasting life. so our focus should not be on celebrating our own life having aready recieved, but on those that have not recieved and are perishing. Forget feasting let us fast for those in our families, neighbourhoods and countries that know not the way to eternal life. Then we can celebrate when they find it now thats what I call a reason for celebration!Hi Morning Star:
You make the following comment:
Quote The early Christians agree with Kejonn. But I feel that mostly stims from the fact that Mithra worship was still active. It was public knowledge, therefore participating in any revelry that day showed your agreement. Today, most people havent the foggiest Idea who Mithra is and nobody thinks Christians are agreeing or joining in with pagans. (well except those who are against Christmas because of their knowledge of history and feel celebrating it is evil)
Where can I find information relative to what the early Christians believed relative to this?
Thanks & God Bless
Not3, you quoted this:
Quote I found this on the web while doing some research. David, can you speak to this? Is this information from an old Watchtower publication?
In your own quote, you answer this:
“The Watchtower was exactly right! Quoting the December 1, 1904Fist, the website you refer to . . . why visit such places? They only speak hate and are often filled with lies. If you are doing research on what JW's beleive, you will not actually find this on such websites.
Quote David, can you speak to this?
Yes, I can speak to this. They were wrong. They acknowledged this later. This quote says nothing of the customs, pagan origins, etc, surrounding the “Christmas.”Quote “Since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate– 'Christmas day'.”
In this statement, they said we “might as well join with the civilized world…”
But as it turns out, the whole world celebrates Christmas, and most of those celebrating Christmas don't even believe in Jesus. Jesus' true followers were to be “no part of the world” as he stated. They are also to be free and untainted by gross paganism, materialism, etc.Quote Maybe you would know? And if so, isn't this interesting? Thanks.
Well, it's not really interesting to me, at least, not in the tone I believe you're taking. At Bethel, there's old pictures of them celebrating Christmas. We know they used to do this.Quote This Mithras “god” is no God to me at all.
Maybe not. But to an outside observer, why imitate doing that?If Mithras means nothing to you, why do you do all the things the ancient worshipers of Mithras did, at the time of year they did those things? There are 365 days you could “choose” to celebrate his birth. And there are an infinite number of ways you could choose to celebrate it. Yet, you have “chosen” to do son on Mithras birthday and have chosen to celebrate it by apparently copying the pagan practices that those who worshiped Mithras would have employed.
I know Mithras doesn't mean anything to you. This doesn't really matter anyway, does it.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO GOD? That's the actual question, the real issue.Quote Yes, it is a personal choice. As such, we should not tell someone they are worshipping a false god on the day they choose to recognize Jesus' birthday.
First off, you did not “choose” to recognize Jesus birth on this day. It was not you that in any way chose that day. It was chosen for you long ago, by those who wished to marry paganism and Christianity to suit their unrighteous purposes.My whole point is this: If you actually did one day say to yourself: Hey, we should celebrate Jesus birth even though we aren't commanded to in the Bible and since we don't know when he was born, let's pick a random day: Sept 14th. How shall we celebrate his birth? Well, we could “honor” “him” by understanding the importance of his birth and more importantly, what it lead to, his death, which he did tell us to commemorate.
But, the adding of all the paganism and the date itself….you could understand how it would seem that you are just copying those people who tried to mix paganism with Christianity and how it would seem that you're imitating the very world Jesus said to be “no part of.”
We know there is no mixing of the two.
what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? –2 cor 6:14
Quote As far as Jesus' birthday goes, yes, celebrate it any day you wish (but be careful….it might be on a pagen day)! Let's say you want to celebrate Jesus' birthday on September 12th, well, you better do some research and make sure no pagen god did anything on that day. See my point? –Not3
Yes, I see your point, but I do not consider it a valid one. The reason is this:
People PURPOSEFULLY declared Jesus birth to be Dec 25th (a lie) and COMBINED Christianity (the truth) with Paganism (another lie).Quote Let's say you want to celebrate Jesus' birthday on September 12th, well, you better do some research and make sure no pagen god did anything on that day.
The thing is, this is not the reason you chose to celebrate Jesus birth on that date. This date was handed to you straight from paganism (although of course it filtered through corrupted Christianity). It was not your choice.Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2007,09:11) Hi Morning Star: You make the following comment:
Quote The early Christians agree with Kejonn. But I feel that mostly stims from the fact that Mithra worship was still active. It was public knowledge, therefore participating in any revelry that day showed your agreement. Today, most people havent the foggiest Idea who Mithra is and nobody thinks Christians are agreeing or joining in with pagans. (well except those who are against Christmas because of their knowledge of history and feel celebrating it is evil)
Where can I find information relative to what the early Christians believed relative to this?
Thanks & God Bless
“The Apostolic Fathers” – a huge encyclopedia of their writings.Or just do alot of google searches containing the search words.
apostolic fathers christmas
christmas early christians
etc… etc…
Alot of the early church writings can actually be found on line.
Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2007,09:29) In your own quote, you answer this:
“The Watchtower was exactly right! Quoting the December 1, 1904
Sorry David, you misunderstand. The first part of my post was the QUOTE that I was quoting! Ha! So, I didn't say “The Watchtower was exactly right!” it was the quote I wanted more information about. Sorry that wasn't clear.
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