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Hi SS,
You use tormented logic. God is greater than Jesus, who told us so, and he calls his Father his God and our God. Jesus exists by the love and will of God begotten of God as a son. God has no gods to compare with Him and though the Son has great glory he is still an image of God.Quote But many other verses also say that the LORD appeared, yet we know that the LORD appeared through an Angel. The word 'Lord' in English Old Testaments really bothers me, as it adds to the confusion that people have concerning the nature of the Father and the Son. For example – if Genesis 26 was properly translated – it would read as follows –
Genesis 26:24 Yahweh appeared to him the same night, and said, “I am the God of Abraham your father. Don't be afraid, for I am with you, and will bless you, and multiply your seed for my servant Abraham's sake.” – World English Bible – Messianic Translation
I could write about all the ways a proper translation helps us understand Yahweh, but you can read it yourself and decide for yourself.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 16 2005,06:45) Quote (stroshow @ Aug. 16 2005,04:55) I've asked this before but never really got an answer.. “6 yet for us there is but one God, the
Father,….there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,…”So my question for you is if the term “ONE God” means
that Jesus is “a lesser god” then wouldn't that mean
that the term “one Lord”, here clearly identified as
Jesus, would make the Father “a lesser Lord” than
Jesus?If Jesus being referred to as the one Lord, does not
make the Father a lesser Lord than Jesus, then why
would the term one God, referring to the Father, make
Jesus a lesser god than the Father?Also, if the Father is the TRUE god, than all other
gods must be false.Even you i think, agree Jesus is referred to as “a Mighty God”
So is Jesus as “a Mighty God”, a false god or the True
God?
Hi SS,
“for us” is important.This does not apply to those who are not among us in Jesus.God is our God.
Jesus is our Lord.That means Jesus has authority over us just as any Lord has authority. God is the Lord of Jesus who is our Lord. God is Lord of lords. It does not say or suggest that Jesus is Lord of God as that is not sensible. Jesus has divine nature and can be called a god. But he is not our God as we are in him. His God is the Father who is our God too.
Hi Nick,
Nicely expressed.
Psalm 8 is quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 15:27-28. That clarifies Phil 2:5f and ought to show that Paul, the writer of Corinthians and Philippians did not intend Christ to be regarded as an equal of God Almighty.
A Trinitarian would say that Ps 8 was referring to the Son of Man aspect of Jesus, but I would ask, is Jesus Divided? And if so, then what do we make of 1 Cor 15:27-28 as it speaks of the end of time through eternity. Does that not speak of the same Jesus?
This also shows that Jesus is not YHWH because Psalm 8 clarifies that too and Paul confirms it.
- Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
- Psalm 8:3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than *the angels (elohyim),
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,- 1 Cor 15:27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
True cubes,
Surely Ps 110.1f, as quoted by Jesus, would be easier to understand as
” YHWH said to my lord
' Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet'
YHWH will stretch forth your strong sceptre from Zion ,saying
'Rule in the midst of your enemies'
Your people will volunteer freely in the day of your power;in holy array from the womb af the dawn.Your youth are to you as the dew
YHWH has sworn and will not change His mind,
'you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek'
YHWH is at your right hand;He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath. He will judge among the nations”YHWH God is the power of the Son of God when he comes again to rule the earth.
You wrote “Jesus has divine nature and can be called
a god. But he is not our God as we are in him. His God
is the Father who is our God too.”Again, since there is only ONE TRUE GOD, and since
Jesus is called “MIGHTY GOD” is Jesus THE true God, or
a “false” god?You wrote “God is the Lord of Jesus who is
our Lord. God is Lord of lords.”While God is referred to as the Lord of lords, so is
Jesus.1 Timothy 6:14-15 That thou keep this commandment
without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our
Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew,
who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of
kings, and “Lord of lords”;Since there can ONLY BE ONE Lord of lords, and since
both God and Jesus are referred to as “THE” Lord of
lords, what does that make you think about who Paul
here is identifying Jesus as being?Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the
Lamb shall overcome them: for “he is” “Lord of lords”,
and King of kings: and they that are with him are
called, and chosen, and faithful.Since there can ONLY BE ONE Lord of lords, What does
that make you think about who JOHN here is saying
about Jesus when he says “HE IS” Lord of lords?Rev. 19:13-16 13 And he was clothed with a vesture
dipped in blood: and his name is called “The Word of
God.” And the armies which were in heaven followed
him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white
and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,
that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name
written, KING OF KINGS, AND “LORD OF LORDS.”Since John, identifies Jesus here, (the Word of God),
as the “LORD OF LORDS” and since there can only be ONE
Lord of lords, what does that make you think about WHO
John here is identifying Jesus as?Hi SS,
The Word of God says “For there are many gods and many lords”
Does it say also that these are all false gods?Why is it that you believe there is only one “Lord of lords”?.To be a lord of lords one has be be in authority over other lords and not necessarily ALL lords. That is the role of God alone but Jesus is lord of all lords under God.
Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 16 2005,15:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 16 2005,06:45) Quote (stroshow @ Aug. 16 2005,04:55) I've asked this before but never really got an answer.. “6 yet for us there is but one God, the
Father,….there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,…”So my question for you is if the term “ONE God” means
that Jesus is “a lesser god” then wouldn't that mean
that the term “one Lord”, here clearly identified as
Jesus, would make the Father “a lesser Lord” than
Jesus?If Jesus being referred to as the one Lord, does not
make the Father a lesser Lord than Jesus, then why
would the term one God, referring to the Father, make
Jesus a lesser god than the Father?Also, if the Father is the TRUE god, than all other
gods must be false.Even you i think, agree Jesus is referred to as “a Mighty God”
So is Jesus as “a Mighty God”, a false god or the True
God?
Hi SS,
“for us” is important.This does not apply to those who are not among us in Jesus.God is our God.
Jesus is our Lord.That means Jesus has authority over us just as any Lord has authority. God is the Lord of Jesus who is our Lord. God is Lord of lords. It does not say or suggest that Jesus is Lord of God as that is not sensible. Jesus has divine nature and can be called a god. But he is not our God as we are in him. His God is the Father who is our God too.
Hi Nick,
Nicely expressed.
Psalm 8 is quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 15:27-28. That clarifies Phil 2:5f and ought to show that Paul, the writer of Corinthians and Philippians did not intend Christ to be regarded as an equal of God Almighty.
A Trinitarian would say that Ps 8 was referring to the Son of Man aspect of Jesus, but I would ask, is Jesus Divided? And if so, then what do we make of 1 Cor 15:27-28 as it speaks of the end of time through eternity. Does that not speak of the same Jesus?
This also shows that Jesus is not YHWH because Psalm 8 clarifies that too and Paul confirms it.
- Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
- Psalm 8:3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than *the angels (elohyim),
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,- 1 Cor 15:27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Hi cubes,
Hebrews 2 5-8 also has Paul quoting Ps 8 as relating to Jesus Christ and explaining it in verses 9-14 as us and Jesus being brethren under the one Father God.
So clearly he is not that God.Nick,
You wrote:
Why is it that you believe there is only one “Lord
of lords”? To be a lord of lords one has be be in
authority over other lords and not necessarily ALL
lords. That is the role of God alone but Jesus is
lord of all lords under God.Response, Nick it does not say Jesus is the Lord of
all lords under God, you are CHANGING the word of God.
It says he is THE (singular) Lord of Lords. By
definition the Lord of Lords, must be the ULTIMATE
Lord, or Jesus would not be the Lord of lords. Instead
he would simply be one of the lords.Yet, JUST AS GOD is called “THE” Lord of lords, (the
Ultimate Lord.) Jesus is called “THE” Lord of lords
(the ULTIMATE Lord.)So AGAIN Nick , Since there can ONLY BE ONE Lord of
lords, What does that make you think about what JOHN
here is saying about Jesus when he says “HE IS” Lord
of lords?Hi SS,
This speaks of the Father :
Deut 10.17
” For the Lord[3068]your God is the God of gods, and the Lord[136] of lords, the great, the mighty ,and the awesome God..”
as does this
Ps 136.3
” Give thanks to the God of gods for His lovingkindness is everlasting.
Give thanks to the Lord[113] of lords, for His lovingkindness is everlasting”
So also does this:
1Tim 6.14f
“..in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Jesus Christ..until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time-He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord[2962] of lords..”
But this refers to Jesus Christ
Rev 17.14
” ..and the lamb will overcome them, because he is Lord[2962] of lords and King of kings..”
as does Rev 19.16
“And on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, 'King of kings, and Lord [2962]of lords”Where is the word “The” you highlight?
All authority has been given to the Son of God. He acts in the name of the Father. No levels of authority exist between the Father and the Son. And all lords are subject to Jesus Christ. So whatever is said of God as far as authority is concerned applies also to the Son of God-except authority over the Lord God Himself.
1Cor 15.27of the Son is said
” …But when He says 'All things are put in subjection' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to him”Hi everyone. I have studyed this subject a lot lately and think I stumbled onto a way to understand this more. Think about John 1:1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Now consider this which isn't in the Bible but evidence of God's work:
In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam, and the Rib was Adam.
In other words I'm drawing a parrallel with the physical creation which is created and not eternal with that which is the spiritual which is eternal. Just as we have an Old Covenant of the flesh we have a New Covenant of the Spirit.
Adam and Eve are said to be of one Flesh. I believe the Word and the Father are one Spirit.
Just trying to give some food for thought.
Paul
Hi TT,
Thank you. The Father is spirit. The Word is the image of the Father. But the Word is separate in spirit from God and their unity is in agreement and will and by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of the Father in the Son after his baptism and for eternity.ps,
The rib is of the same origin of man being taken from man but is then separate from man and what is made from it is very different in genetic basis and resulting form.Though woman is still the closest being in type to the man from whom she was taken.Quote (stroshow @ Aug. 18 2005,01:21) So AGAIN Nick , Since there can ONLY BE ONE Lord of
lords, What does that make you think about what JOHN
here is saying about Jesus when he says “HE IS” Lord
of lords?
Hi SS,
No there can be many Lords of lords. Lordship is hierachical so a local lord can be over a landlord and under a Lord of the region who is under the Lordship of Jesus who submits to His Father.What conclusion have you come to ? Surely you have not derived from this the error that Jesus is also the Father of Jesus?
Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 16 2005,15:53) Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Hi cubes,
KJV is so difficult to understand in today's language at times. This verse in particular in KJV seems to take almost an opposite stance from every other version.“did not consider it robbery to be equal with God”makes no sense alongside “but made himself of no reputation”
KJV has trinitarian bias and many try to show this somehow means the Son already had equality. Why then does “robbery” come into it? Certainly there is the sense of “robbery” in the greek but only in that to try to take that equality would have been robbery. It is almost as if the word “it” should not be there.
Yes very popular, would you care to answer my question on the other thread or shall I transfer it here?
Hi y2t,
Any old thread. The Son of God had divine nature but was not his own Father. Yes there are a couple of other scriptures about his Godly nature and several thousand about YHWH being God. Jesus told the Jews the Father was the one they called God[Jn 8.54]. I agree with him do you?.To say he is the God of the OT is to not abide in scripture and
Deny he is the Son of God
Deny that he was with God in the beginning.
Deny that the Father is his God.
Deny that he was sent by God.
Deny the Father as his Father.etc etcDeut 6:4 Hear O Israel the Lord (Eternal and self existent) our God (Elohim = Plural) is one (united and number one or none above) Lord.
The word used is Elohim the plural of Eloah. If God is one then the word Eloah would have been used, but it is not.
The Godhead is a duality and always has been. The Holy Spirit is their power and the essence of their Being.
Hi Y2t,
So you agree scripture says God is ONE.
Then you immediately deny that very scripture and say God is more than one?
Who should we believe-you or scripture?
You say this means a duality of two. So you are a binity believer?
[That of course, is how trinity started until the third person was added by further theological study.]
If so as far as I know you are the first binity believer on this forum.Then is the 'Son of God' only a title?
Scripture says the Son was indwelled by the fullness of deity.[Coll 2.9]
Was he a being himself before he was filled by the Spirit of God?
Was he a human being like to us in every way except sin?
Is the 'Father' only a title?
Are they not really Father and Son after all?
It would be unusual if that was the case as their family relationship is the basis for ours according to Eph 3.15.
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