Is Jesus God?

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 02 2004,01:35)

Also I challenge all those who sit their theology from scholars, but I am not adverse to them. They certainly do not provide the foundation for my faith. I believe in reading the scripture myself and asking God to reveal truth to me through his Spirit. I then read the works of others to sharpen what God has shown me and to challenge my conclusions.

I guess I am saying that I do not start and finish with scholars as they are just as human as you and me. I try to check everything out.

Hi T8,
What do you mean by “sit their theology from scholars”? Im aware as anyone that its dangerous to rely solely on academics for biblical understanding. I don't do this. For every one word ive read by published scholars I would estimate that I would have read 100 from the Bible, maybe several hundred. The commentators I do use (e.g. Chuck Missler) I find useful for Jewish insights, background information etc. The good ones tend to give you the information and encourage you to draw your own conclusions. They encourage you to search the scriptures and check it out for yourself – like the bereans (Acts 17:11). In the end God uses all sorts of vehicles to deliver His truth in the word but we have to be both receptive and discerning at the same time. I pray for both.
God Bless

August 6, 2004 at 11:14 pm#18903

Participant

I agree.

Please do not take everything I say as an accusation. I make general statements which I believe to be true in general and say them for you and for the other readers. It is up to the reader to agree or disagree with my words and if they feel convicted by them, then perhaps that person can do something about it. Otherwise if you believe that it doesn't apply to you, then the words should be like water off a ducks back.

I said this because your response was entirely based on the work of a scholar and even though this can be a good thing, (why reinvent the wheel so to speak) I pointed out the potential danger of trusting soley in a mans point of view. If you had say responded with that quote and some other stuff that you learned or thought, then I would have seen a more balanced answer. Or perhaps if you said that I believe this, but I cannot say it better than this guy blah blah blah. But it came across to me as if you didn't have an answer, so you pulled this one out. Even then that is not a bad thing for this discussion is about learning the truth. I just pointed out a potential danger with this though. I do not know whether it was really relevant to you or not. But perhaps it is to someone else who will read this?

Anyway my words were only a pointer. They certainly were not an accusation. I am happy to hear that you consider yourself as one who searches out matters like the bereans. If this is the case, then you will continue to learn and know the truth and you will be set free in all things. I cannot complain if this is so.

August 9, 2004 at 8:51 am#18904

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 06 2004,18:14)

Hi T8
Everyone to one degree or other is influenced by the views of others, its impossible not to be. However, I don't think you need to throw the baby out with the bath water and disregard the views of scholars and Bible commentators. The ones I respect I believe are Holy Spirit-filled anyway (although you can never know for sure, I guess) so I dont believe im exposing myself to (as you would say) the 'doctrine of man' but that sourced from God Himself, filtered through a human vehicle. If you take what you say to its logical conclusion then we should all be isolating ourselves, trusting no-one's opinion and thats not healthy for spiritual development either. It all comes down to your own God-given discernment.

On another topic, do you hold that the title 'Almighty' is exclusively applicable to the Father? Because if this is the case, there are one or two verses in Revelation that appear to refute this.

One last thing. Can you please explain to me what is so dangerous about ascribing deity to Jesus. Because I would argue that verses like Isa 9:6, Zech 14:3, Jn 20:28, Heb 1:8 and Titus 2:13 clearly establish this fact. He also recieved worship (and noboby but God can, Deut 8:19) and forgave sins (ditto for this one too). Given all this if I am wrong I think I might have a pretty good case to put to God the Father in my defence and I would think Jesus would be flattered, if anything, at my misjudgement. However, if you are wrong then I imagine that Jesus (and the Father) might be a little miffed at your downgrading of Him to less-than-God status. So, on balance, I think I might be on safer ground here. Im not questioning your salvation by the way, just making an observation.

Im going to be out of town for the next few day so wont be able to post but I'll be interested to read why you think its dangerous to believe something the Bible, in my view (and that of perhaps 95%+ of christendom), clearly teaches about Jesus.

August 10, 2004 at 1:13 am#18905

Participant

I don't have a problem with scholars, it's just that they do not dictate truth to me. They are fallible as you and I are, so they should be only part of our search for truth and interpretation of scripture. The most important thing is that we are led by the Spirit of God and secondly that we actually read scripture through the eyes of innocense. Not many people actually do this. Many prefer to have truth given to them as a service by other men.

Having said that I cannot agree that one stance is safer than another. I believe that we should trust and obey the words of Christ if he is our shepherd. That is the safe option. Even if the denominations disagree with Jesus words, then we should still obey Christ. The majority have been wrong many times. Evolution is probably believed by the majority of scientists for example. Most of Christianity believed that salvation was through the Roman Catholic Church until the reformation. Maybe most still believe that salvation is through the Roman Catholic Church as most who call themselves Christian are from that denomination. Perhaps a billion people or so.

Who do we follow? Athanasius and his followers or Jesus himself. The safest option is to listen and believe and not to be coaxed out of pure belief by clever scholars, that is if there is a conflict. Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice and the voice of another they will not listen”. So this is the safe option. It is not about finding a philosophy that gives you the best odds. It is about seeking the truth everyday with such zeal that God has to give you the truth. Seek and you will find. To seek truth is to seek Jesus.

Yes the trinity is the foundation or a foundation for 95% of Christianity, but then that is because the great falling away must come before the return of our messiah and Jesus hasn't returned yet. So as I see it, the great falling away is now and has already happened. It was foretold in scripture and Paul warned of this many times with tears. If you look at history you will see that the Roman Empire scored a victory the day that some bishops gave the emperor control of Jesus Church. Of course this did not really happen, as it was more that a counterfeit was created.

Instead of the Catholic Church (universal), the Roman version was created called the Roman Catholic Church. She is the Mother and she is the basis for a lot of doctrine that her daughters follow. But in reality she is a cult and perhaps the first. We should come out of her (doctrines and traditions) lest we partake of her plagues.

Man in his wisdom loves to trust things built by man and this is no different with 95% of christianity. I am not questioning their salvation, but there dedication to searching truth is equated to their servitude before God.

Anyway I will write again regarding some of the scriptures you quoted.

thx

August 10, 2004 at 2:02 am#18906

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 09 2004,22:51)

If you take what you say to its logical conclusion then we should all be isolating ourselves, trusting no-one's opinion and thats not healthy for spiritual development either.

I thought that I made it clear with my stance with scholars, but perhaps I didn't do a good enough job.

Scholars can be both good and bad. True and wrong. As long as we are lead by the Spirit of Truth, then we will hear Jesus through scholars and other people. We will also be able to tell when it is not Jesus speaking as we will not listen to another.

In my trinity writing,
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm

I have a whole page dedicated to the writings of early scholars (pre-nicence creed) and their words are certainly in conflict with most of Christianity today. As you can see I also use the work of scholars.

August 11, 2004 at 5:00 am#18907

Participant

Of course when we are baptised into the Body of Christ and share His lifegiving Spirit our relationships change. Jesus is the Head of that body. We are mere fingers ,toes or toenails, useful only to the Body if we obey the Head. Our motivation is service to Him and awareness of His will which is revealed to us when we submit daily to the will of the Lord as shown in the Word.

We become branches expressing the vines presence and purpose ,to produce fruit, and it is folly to resist.

We too become sons of God and brothers of Jesus in eternity.

August 11, 2004 at 8:21 am#18908

Participant

Hi Nick,

I think that you truly understand what the Body of Christ is and who the Church really is.

August 18, 2004 at 9:04 pm#18909

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 09 2004,20:13)

I cannot agree that one stance is safer than another. I believe that we should trust and obey the words of Christ if he is our shepherd. That is the safe option. Even if the denominations disagree with Jesus words, then we should still obey Christ. The majority have been wrong many times.

Hi T8,
I disagree. I think there are consequences for the stance we take on Jesus. Muslims, for instance, believe Jesus existed, was a venerated prophet and even performed miracles – yet deny he was God (or even from God) or that he rose from the dead. Are they on safe ground? Some watchtowers believe that Jesus was the archangel Michael – (mis)quoting 1 Thess 4:16 to support this. Is this a safe position to take on Christ? Many athiests and agnostics wont deny Jesus existed, they just don't buy that he died for their sins and rose again. Again, are they safe in holding this position?
kind regards

August 19, 2004 at 5:10 am#18910

Anonymous

Guest

hey is1:18,

i think t8 was saying that if we trust and obey the words of christ, we're on safe ground…

as i see it, there is a big difference between believing that jesus existed, and believing what he said… those who deny he was from god, those who believe he was michael, those who don't believe in the death and resurrection – all these (and many more) have either not trusted his words, or have added to them.

there are many traditions in the church today which may be “based” on the scriptures, and they may or may not be right, but if we just stick to what jesus said, eg. love the lord your god, and love your neighbour as yourself, etc. and believe what he said of himself, we can't go far wrong…

cheers,

nate.

August 19, 2004 at 7:39 am#18911

Participant

Hi Nate,
True enough, the point I was trying to make was: the position we take on Jesus' identity matters. Thats all.
God Bless

August 19, 2004 at 8:51 am#18912

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 19 2004,11:04)

Is this a safe position to take on Christ?

The truth is the safe path, not formulas or doctrines of men.
Scripture is safe if read or translated correctly. This is why I tend to teach and listen to scripture. If someone rattles off a doctrine without scriptural backup or if it contradicts scripture, then I cannot take it seriously.

August 19, 2004 at 8:54 am#18913

Participant

Quote (Guest @ Aug. 19 2004,19:10)

hey is1:18,

i think t8 was saying that if we trust and obey the words of christ, we're on safe ground…

cheers,

nate.

Amen

August 19, 2004 at 9:10 am#18914

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 19 2004,21:39)

Hi Nate,
True enough, the point I was trying to make was: the position we take on Jesus' identity matters. Thats all.
God Bless

I agree. Who and what Jesus is, is important. What Jesus said about himself is what we should be hearing. What other say he is we shouldn't listen to.

John 10:14
“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

John 10:27
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

August 23, 2004 at 11:44 am#18915

Participant

Here are some scriptures that teach that Christ is different to God. The first one is from Christ himself, so who are we to argue with him?

John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

John 12:49-50
For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me.

John 5:30
I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 8:42-45
If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

August 23, 2004 at 6:39 pm#18916

itsme

Participant

very true t8
didn't he pray to God too? and talk to him?

October 2, 2004 at 10:39 pm#18781

Participant

Yes nate,
And in Jesus prayer to the Father of Jn 17.11ff
“that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE…I pray also for those who will believe in Me through their word that all may be ONE, as you Father are in Me and I in You I pray that they may be [ONE] in us that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me that they may be ONE as we are ONE-I living in them ,you living in me -that their UNITY may be complete”

If we look at the original apostles as the fruit of this prayer they were different but alike. Some had leadership given them and some did not but submitted to that authority. They wrote in different ways and acted in different ways and had different roles.They shared the same passion for the gospel and worked together for the same purpose. They had the same heart and mind and Spirit.

So the relationship between the Father and Son should be somewhat similar to that? Different, with authority of the Father over the Son, but united?

April 27, 2005 at 9:46 pm#18917

Participant

Hi Rudy and WIT,
There are some posts in here that may interest you.

August 15, 2005 at 8:51 pm#18918

Participant

Hi,
The watershed of doctrine is Jn1.1
“..and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”

Some see the last 5 words as paramount and so see Jesus as part of God.

But the words before that then lose their meaning as to be with another means there are two beings in relationship-Father and Son.

August 16, 2005 at 3:55 am#18919

stroshow

Participant

I've asked this before but never really got an answer..

“6 yet for us there is but one God, the
Father,….there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,…”

So my question for you is if the term “ONE God” means
that Jesus is “a lesser god” then wouldn't that mean
that the term “one Lord”, here clearly identified as
Jesus, would make the Father “a lesser Lord” than
Jesus?

If Jesus being referred to as the one Lord, does not
make the Father a lesser Lord than Jesus, then why
would the term one God, referring to the Father, make
Jesus a lesser god than the Father?

Also, if the Father is the TRUE god, than all other
gods must be false.

Even you i think, agree Jesus is referred to as “a Mighty God”
So is Jesus as “a Mighty God”, a false god or the True
God?

August 16, 2005 at 5:45 am#18920